Tang Police or Tang Nazis?

[Lance]

Interesting article in this month's Coral Magazine: It seems the "Tang Police" may have to hand in their handcuffs. Apparently, studies have been done to measure stress levels of fish kept in aquariums of different sizes. After acclimation, there was no difference is stress level between fishes in larger or smaller tanks. In fact, there was no difference in levels between captive fish and wild fish. The author of the article goes on to say that the Regal Tang, which many people consider to be one of the Tangs that require larger spaces are fine in a tank of 150 gallons, as long as a swimming area of 65" by 24" is available. The author also says Wrasses may require more swimming room than Tangs. Why are there no "Wrasse Police"?

[sphelps]

Haha yeah I think sometimes people need to just relax and remember these are just fish not actual people. And if you care that much about fish you should not eat them or keep aquariums.

[lastlight]

Haha yeah I think sometimes people need to just relax and remember these are just fish not actual people. And if you care that much about fish you should not eat them or keep aquariums.

Well I've got one of those criteria handled. The other ain't gonna happen!

I'm gonna go watch my Kole zoom around his 3 foot 97g now brb.

[globaldesigns]

Leave it to you all to start poking fun... This thread will be a fun one to watch and see what happens.

I think I want my JBJ28 back and I can put Dori in it. She is about 7 inches long now. She would be fine, she can turn around.

Happy New Year everyone!!!

[Lance]

Leave it to you all to start poking fun... This thread will be a fun one to watch and see what happens.
Happy New Year everyone!!!


It's a new year, might as well stir the pot a little! :mrgreen:

I don't pretend to be an animal behaviouralist. In fact, I don't know if that's even a real word. :redface: I just found the article interesting. Right or wrong? I don't know, but I'm sure there will be some interesting responses.

[JonT]

Part of our jobs as the owner of these small eco systems is to best replicate the inhabitants natural environment. Isn't it?

Do you buy a German sheppard and stuff it into a small crate? I mean, it can turn around in there. There is room for it to eat and such. So, that is okay then right? Dog seems happy when I stick my fingers in the front grate...... This will get me in jail if I put a picture of it on a dog forum, and talk about it. All the while ignoring all advice being given to me by the members of that community.

Can you keep a tang in a 90.. Sure. Can someone new to the hobby do the same.. Maybe. The person that has more experience with water chemistry will likely have a healthier tang in a year.

Can you put a 5" yellow tang in a biocube? Sure you can. You can even go on the forums, and tell everyone that no matter how many reasons they provide you with, your not going to do anything differently. And your not going to have to worry about police... cause well, its a fish... No fur...

I have yet to read that article. But even without doing so, can still comment on my opinions (and yes, there are times when I dust off the tang police badge) Fish need an appropriate amount of room. Tangs do not stay in one area in the wild. (there was a video posted here the other day with Atlantic blue's they came, and left) We keep them in a glass box. The least we can do is give them the room they need to reach speeds capable of splashing the water out of the tank.

Can you keep a tang in a 90.. Sure. Can someone new to the hobby do the same.. Maybe. The person that has more experience with water chemistry will likely have a healthier tang in a year.

As with all opinions in this hobby (wanna talk DSB's?) They come backed with personal experience.

Gets off the soap box, and puts the badge back into the jacket pocket.

[gobytron]

Part of our jobs as the owner of these small eco systems is to best replicate the inhabitants natural environment. Isn't it?

Do you buy a German sheppard and stuff it into a small crate? I mean, it can turn around in there. There is room for it to eat and such. So, that is okay then right? Dog seems happy when I stick my fingers in the front grate...... This will get me in jail if I put a picture of it on a dog forum, and talk about it. All the while ignoring all advice being given to me by the members of that community.

Can you keep a tang in a 90.. Sure. Can someone new to the hobby do the same.. Maybe. The person that has more experience with water chemistry will likely have a healthier tang in a year.

Can you put a 5" yellow tang in a biocube? Sure you can. You can even go on the forums, and tell everyone that no matter how many reasons they provide you with, your not going to do anything differently. And your not going to have to worry about police... cause well, its a fish... No fur...

I have yet to read that article. But even without doing so, can still comment on my opinions (and yes, there are times when I dust off the tang police badge) Fish need an appropriate amount of room. Tangs do not stay in one area in the wild. (there was a video posted here the other day with Atlantic blue's they came, and left) We keep them in a glass box. The least we can do is give them the room they need to reach speeds capable of splashing the water out of the tank.

Can you keep a tang in a 90.. Sure. Can someone new to the hobby do the same.. Maybe. The person that has more experience with water chemistry will likely have a healthier tang in a year.

As with all opinions in this hobby (wanna talk DSB's?) They come backed with personal experience.

Gets off the soap box, and puts the badge back into the jacket pocket.

No tank you can build will ever come close to replicating a fishes natural habitat or range...lol

You have your own soapbox and it seems to be of the hypocritical kind...lol

If you take a fish out of the ocean and put it into your tank, you are NO better than someone who throws a yellow tang in a 50 gallon...

If I kidnapyou and take you away from your home, family and habitat, do you care if I stick you in an apartment or house?

This hobby just seems to attract those with an odd sense of being righteous...maybe to deal with the guilt of raping the oceans...the rape in which we ALL (unless your tank is exclusively captive raised and eco live rock) take part in...

Make yourself feel better about things if you must, just dont expect those of us whove cashed in our reality cheques to care.

[viperfish]

No tank you can build will ever come close to replicating a fishes natural habitat or range...lol

You have your own soapbox and it seems to be of the hypocritical kind...lol

If you take a fish out of the ocean and put it into your tank, you are NO better than someone who throws a yellow tang in a 50 gallon...

If I kidnapyou and take you away from your home, family and habitat, do you care if I stick you in an apartment or house?

This hobby just seems to attract those with an odd sense of being righteous...maybe to deal with the guilt of raping the oceans...the rape in which we ALL (unless your tank is exclusively captive raised and eco live rock)...

MAke yourself feel better about things if you must, just dont expect those of us whove cashed in our reality cheques to care.

It's like you took the words right out of my mouth!

[JonT]

No tank you can build will ever come close to replicating a fishes natural habitat or range...lol

You have your own soapbox and it seems to be of the hypocritical kind...lol

If you take a fish out of the ocean and put it into your tank, you are NO better than someone who throws a yellow tang in a 50 gallon...

If I kidnapyou and take you away from your home, family and habitat, do you care if I stick you in an apartment or house?

This hobby just seems to attract those with an odd sense of being righteous...maybe to deal with the guilt of raping the oceans...the rape in which we ALL (unless your tank is exclusively captive raised and eco live rock)...

MAke yourself feel better about things if you must, just dont expect those of us whove cashed in our reality cheques to care.


Wow. Okay then....

I was simply pointing out that while we have taken the fish from the ocean our job was to take care of it as best we can.

Sorry if that got lost in the translation. Was just making a comparison using a dog. Lots of popular TV shows regarding animal cruelty these days. But not for animals with fins.....

As for eco rock? Really? Dig a big hole toss all kinds of sediments into the water ways, destroying local lakes, and rivers eco systems. Pollutants in the air from the equipment digging it up etc. So that we feel better? I will stick with my live rock. I am sure that it isn't collected per the "loose rock" rules that most regions have, but less impact than digging holes, refining the rocks to turn it back into rock.

As for being no better than the next, your wrong there. I do frequent the forums. I make educated purchases. I make sure that I am not buying something unreasonable for my aquarium. I don't just trust some kid at a store that it is "okay" I stick with sponsors that know what the hell their doing. And even then, I still will wait on a purchase till I have looked it up myself.

[lastlight]

*lays a man-slapping on lance*

[Skimmerking]

Ok SO my 8 footer that will house a
Orange Shoulder tang
Kole Tang
Tommi Tang
Sailfin Tang
5 Yellow tangs
Chevron tang

will be good not to mention the other 17 fish that i will have in there.


mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm good to know I thought that it was to much.

[reefwars]

this should be a pole tang police or tang nazi:):)

[gobytron]

Wow. Okay then....

I was simply pointing out that while we have taken the fish from the ocean our job was to take care of it as best we can.

Sorry if that got lost in the translation. Was just making a comparison using a dog. Lots of popular TV shows regarding animal cruelty these days. But not for animals with fins.....

As for eco rock? Really? Dig a big hole toss all kinds of sediments into the water ways, destroying local lakes, and rivers eco systems. Pollutants in the air from the equipment digging it up etc. So that we feel better? I will stick with my live rock. I am sure that it isn't collected per the "loose rock" rules that most regions have, but less impact than digging holes, refining the rocks to turn it back into rock.

As for being no better than the next, your wrong there. I do frequent the forums. I make educated purchases. I make sure that I am not buying something unreasonable for my aquarium. I don't just trust some kid at a store that it is "okay" I stick with sponsors that know what the hell their doing. And even then, I still will wait on a purchase till I have looked it up myself.


None of this makes you any less of a detriment to the state of the oceans.
You can say I am better than the rest because I do my research and cross my t's and dot my i's but it doesnt change a thing anywhere but in your own eyes.
You are still taking these animals out of their home and putting them into yours for YOUR OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT.

And as far as the eco rock goes, I thought I was pretty clear in speaking only in the context of being guilty of the rape of our oceans....lol
not of other forms of environmental destruction.
Speculation is fun and it can sure help you make a point but really, you would need a pretty in depth study to truly determine which was more harmfull overall to the general environment.

Also....lol
as a side note, both my German Short Haired Pointer and my Chihuahua are crate trained and are healthier, happier animals for it and nobody is going to send me to jail for that.

[globaldesigns]

None of this makes you any less of a detriment to the state of the oceans.
You can say I am better than the rest because I do my research and cross my t's and dot my i's but it doesnt change a thing anywhere but in your own eyes.
You are still taking these animals out of their home and putting them into yours for YOUR OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT.

And as far as the eco rock goes, I thought I was pretty clear in speaking only in the context of being guilty of the rape of our oceans....lol
not of other forms of environmental destruction.
Speculation is fun and it can sure help you make a point but really, you would need a pretty in depth study to truly determine which was more harmfull overall to the general environment.

GobyTron, I think you are coming across a little harsh... You probably don't mean it though, its the common problem with forums. Believe me, I have had my fair share of my comments being taken the wrong way.

I think we all can say that non of us have the right, but we still do... So lets just try the best we can for our little inhabitants. If we all really cared enough, then we wouldn't be taking anything from the oceans, so I guess we are all selfish/greedy.

Just my 2cents.

[gobytron]

Harsh?

just pointing out the obvious in my mind.

Apologies to those who may feel offended by my words here but maybe it's because they make sense and that doesnt feel too good.

In my mind, it's reality thats harsh and not me.

Admittably, there is no one I would rather play devils advocate to than tank nazis.

[Zoaelite]

How do you measure the stress level of a fish, or better yet how do you measure the stress level of a fish with out stressing it out?

Link me plz.

[Jackie]

If you take a fish out of the ocean and put it into your tank, you are NO better than someone who throws a yellow tang in a 50 gallon...

+1

How about a taking a fish from the ocean and put it on your dinner plate?
You eat it, you stress him once.
You keep it in your tank, for sure you stress him more than once.

http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb300/20070711/Seafood-Tank-376071.jpg

[gobytron]

+1

How about a taking a fish from the ocean and put it on your dinner plate?
You eat it, you stress him once.
You keep it in your tank, for sure you stress him more than once.

http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb300/20070711/Seafood-Tank-376071.jpg

LOL..
Nice 1.

[shrimpchips]

How do you measure the stress level of a fish, or better yet how do you measure the stress level of a fish with out stressing it out?

Link me plz.

In the article a study was cited in passing of measured cortisol levels being the same in acclimated stock as wild stock.

I love threads about an article where nobody reads the article. Read the article - I think it's pretty informative and lays a lot of issues out in a reasonable manner.

I'mall for appropriately sizing a tank to a fish - obviously a 7" fish should not go in a 12" cube. But a 6" fish in a 3' tank? Sure, it CAN swim really far and fast, but does it have to?

[Aquattro]

Harsh?

just pointing out the obvious in my mind.



I gotta agree with you. It's a conflict of interest, in my mind, to defend a fish's rights and freedoms when you in fact own a fish. Is a 180 better than a 90 for a tang? Probably, but marginally at best. Unless you own a tank about a kilometer long, you're not coming close to replicating it's environment. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that unless your gallonage has 4 digits, the tang might as well be in a biocube.
I've heard of tangs settling down once leaving a 4' tank for a 6'. I see no difference in mine after this move. They cannot get anywhere near cruising speed, and you can tell they'd rather be home in the ocean.

So while I may admire the intent to do well, believing we are is simply fiction. Reality is, we are a menace to the reefs!

[Skimmerking]

In the article a study was cited in passing of measured cortisol levels being the same in acclimated stock as wild stock.

I love threads about an article where nobody reads the article. Read the article - I think it's pretty informative and lays a lot of issues out in a reasonable manner.

I'mall for appropriately sizing a tank to a fish - obviously a 7" fish should not go in a 12" cube. But a 6" fish in a 3' tank? Sure, it CAN swim really far and fast, but does it have to?

I think that the 7" fish in a 12" was a joke or mistaken somewhere. these always go that way.

[kien]

:pop2:

Actually, while this statement may sound ridiculous on the surface, I think you're absolutely right and is more or less what the article has found.

I'd go so far as to say that unless your gallonage has 4 digits, the tang might as well be in a biocube.

[lastlight]

None of our tanks are suitable in my opinion. Most hobbyists feel better the more space they have. That much we know. We've grown comfortable with the six foot rule which is mostly for our peace of mind not theirs. Six is better than three but it's still a drop in the Big Bucket.

[JonT]

None of this makes you any less of a detriment to the state of the oceans.

Yes it does. People are taking care of animals better through research. They are breeding animals that 10 years ago we couldn't (wanna get a tank raised mandarin, that will eat prepared food, you can. Couldn't a couple years ago)


You can say I am better than the rest because I do my research and cross my t's and dot my i's but it doesnt change a thing anywhere but in your own eyes.
You are still taking these animals out of their home and putting them into yours for YOUR OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT.

Sure I am, but in my tank, I have setup the tank to keep my fish healthy. I would bet your tanks are setup in the best interests of the inhabitants your looking to put in there.


And as far as the eco rock goes, I thought I was pretty clear in speaking only in the context of being guilty of the rape of our oceans....lol
not of other forms of environmental destruction.
Speculation is fun and it can sure help you make a point but really, you would need a pretty in depth study to truly determine which was more harmfull overall to the general environment.

And I was pointing out that sometimes this "rape" of the ocean is a better solution than the Eco friendly ways. I did a quick look, and all the eco rock sellers I could find state; We dig this rock from X year old reefs. (pollutants, land erosion etc) Then power wash the rock (where is all that silt running too?) to sell it as 100% clean rock.

Also....lol
as a side note, both my German Short Haired Pointer and my Chihuahua are crate trained and are healthier, happier animals for it and nobody is going to send me to jail for that.

Again, ya missed what I was saying. If you leave those dogs in their crate 24/7 you can bet your butt you can be in trouble for it. But I am guessing they are in there while you work, maybe at night too. Nothing wrong with that. We don't have the option of taking the fish for a walk, or letting it out in the back yard. So, we try to give it the best we can.



If not for the hobby in the first place, some of the learning that has happened in the past few years would not exist. Talk to any of the industry (hobby?) leaders at any of the shows. They will all talk about how the hobby has helped with the industry, and renewal projects on the reefs.

Now, please, if you have something to debate, or add to a conversation, do so. Don't sit here and nit pick one persons thoughts and opinions. That sort of thinking is not healthy.

[reefwars]

So while I may admire the intent to do well, believing we are is simply fiction. Reality is, we are a menace to the reefs!




couldnt agree more theres too much about whats right and whats wrong, we all use the judgement that suits us best if someone elses beliefs or practises are different then our own then thats their god given right but why should we argue over things that will never have a solid answer......whos right and whos wrong is always gonna be up for debate so i say choose your side based on your own feelings.

i got into sw for the hobby of it, so as a hobbyst and not a conservationalist i dont quabble over right and wrong i just wait for opportunities to come my way so while you all are arguing ill stand neutral...... this hobby to me is an experiment im not trying to save the world im trying to save my sanity and keep myself busy if i save the reef in the process then great if i am somehow to blame for destroying it then....sorry in advance:):)


i think the reason we all dont have big fish in super small tanks isnt because we feel morally at fault if that was the case id offer money to every bum i seen we dont do it because they dont fit, if i had a 3' tank and a 9" fish then he takes up the whole tank and would leave little room for viewing which is the whole idea of a aquarium.

[Aquattro]

I'll reiterate again, if you keep fish in a tank, you're a hazard to the oceans :) Equating dogs and crates isn't entirely accurate. Tank/fish size is like comparing taking a wild wolf and keeping in the extra large size crate instead of the undersized medium crate. The furrari Xtra large is a wonderful crate, but the wolf isn't any better off than if it was in the undersized crate. The wolf belongs in the forest. The fish belong in the ocean.
We don't need to "research" reefs in aquariums. How many millions of fish have died, tons of rocks mined, corals ripped from the wild, all in the name of this research??
Sure, we all have our excuses for why we keep them anyway, but it's still bad for everything but us.

[globaldesigns]

I'll reiterate again, if you keep fish in a tank, you're a hazard to the oceans :) Equating dogs and crates isn't entirely accurate. Tank/fish size is like comparing taking a wild wolf and keeping in the extra large size crate instead of the undersized medium crate. The furrari Xtra large is a wonderful crate, but the wolf isn't any better off than if it was in the undersized crate. The wolf belongs in the forest. The fish belong in the ocean.
We don't need to "research" reefs in aquariums. How many millions of fish have died, tons of rocks mined, corals ripped from the wild, all in the name of this research??
Sure, we all have our excuses for why we keep them anyway, but it's still bad for everything but us.

As I stated prior, and +1 to you. We are ALL Selfish, but again this is human.

We can go on this topic forever, but overall the human race are the pilligers of the planet, we take, and don't replace. We take for pleasure, not just for survival... Name another creature that is like this, NONE!!!

I agree with Gobytrons and others comments also... I guess it is just a matter how we present/represent ourselves. This the reason I commented prior to your comments.

Really do we have a right to scrutinize anyone for having too small a tank, when in reality none of us should have one?

[gobytron]

Yes it does. People are taking care of animals better through research. They are breeding animals that 10 years ago we couldn't (wanna get a tank raised mandarin, that will eat prepared food, you can. Couldn't a couple years ago)



Sure I am, but in my tank, I have setup the tank to keep my fish healthy. I would bet your tanks are setup in the best interests of the inhabitants your looking to put in there.


And I was pointing out that sometimes this "rape" of the ocean is a better solution than the Eco friendly ways. I did a quick look, and all the eco rock sellers I could find state; We dig this rock from X year old reefs. (pollutants, land erosion etc) Then power wash the rock (where is all that silt running too?) to sell it as 100% clean rock.


Again, ya missed what I was saying. If you leave those dogs in their crate 24/7 you can bet your butt you can be in trouble for it. But I am guessing they are in there while you work, maybe at night too. Nothing wrong with that. We don't have the option of taking the fish for a walk, or letting it out in the back yard. So, we try to give it the best we can.



If not for the hobby in the first place, some of the learning that has happened in the past few years would not exist. Talk to any of the industry (hobby?) leaders at any of the shows. They will all talk about how the hobby has helped with the industry, and renewal projects on the reefs.

Now, please, if you have something to debate, or add to a conversation, do so. Don't sit here and nit pick one persons thoughts and opinions. That sort of thinking is not healthy.



LOL...
It's like we're having 2 different conversations...

[daniella3d]

I had read it yesterday and that come right on time. I happen to have a small hippo, 2" 1/2 in a 75 gallons tank and was told the fish "would not be happy". He eats like a pig but does not roam the aquarium much and prefer to stay on the top part within my sps. I was again told it is because the fish is in a too small space and that was a sign of stress but after reading the article I have learned the truth...the young hippo tang does not roam much and prefer to stay within the same spot, so my fish has a normal behavior as it would in the wild. He can stay in that tank for a year at least before he outgrown it, then he would go into a larger tank but there is no rush.

It is true that taking a fish from the ocean with a living space of 20,000 gallon per fish and putting it either in a 90 galons tank or a 150 gallons tank is not going to make a big difference.

they also explain that the naso tang and one other are those that really need swimming space so there is a lot of myth and propaganda done by the unfamous tang police it seems.

For the stress level, I always thought that fish were more stressed in the wild because they constantly have to watch for predator and death is in every corners. In aquarium usualy the fish are well fed and safe. How stressfull can that be? at least if there is no aggression in the tank that is.



Interesting article in this month's Coral Magazine: It seems the "Tang Police" may have to hand in their handcuffs. Apparently, studies have been done to measure stress levels of fish kept in aquariums of different sizes. After acclimation, there was no difference is stress level between fishes in larger or smaller tanks. In fact, there was no difference in levels between captive fish and wild fish. The author of the article goes on to say that the Regal Tang, which many people consider to be one of the Tangs that require larger spaces are fine in a tank of 150 gallons, as long as a swimming area of 65" by 24" is available. The author also says Wrasses may require more swimming room than Tangs. Why are there no "Wrasse Police"?

[Aquattro]

For the stress level, I always thought that fish were more stressed in the wild because they constantly have to watch for predator and death is in every corners. In aquarium usualy the fish are well fed and safe. How stressfull can that be? at least if there is no aggression in the tank that is.

I don't think the fish know that there aren't any sharks behind the rock, so the normal stress of trying to avoid being eaten is still there.

[daniella3d]

Just curious but are you doing a strict quarantine each time you introduce something? Because that's definitly more important to keep fish healthy than 50 gallons difference in a tank.

I know a lot of people who don't give a darn about ich and let the fish burst in ich here and there and say "it's nothing, it will go away on its own" and those same people are almost dropping dead if they see a 3" baby tang in a 90 gallons tank. I bet the tang in the 90 gallons tank that does not have harrassing parasite and ich burst is a LOT more happy and healthy than the one in the 180 gallons full of ich harrassing it each day (weather you see white spots or not).

I have seen blue hippo tang with horrible deformation due to HLLE and that was in a big 150 gallons tank. Obviously the fish was underfed or not fed the proper food.

A lot of people will not care much for this but will be heal over head for an aquarium size.



Sure I am, but in my tank, I have setup the tank to keep my fish healthy. I would bet your tanks are setup in the best interests of the inhabitants your looking to put in there.

[daniella3d]

nah...the fish are more intelligent than you think and they do learn to feel comfortable in an aquarium. My fish got the routine right and they pretty much know the feeding hours and come right at the spot to get fed. They learn to trust us, as well as they learn to trust their environment with time. That is if there is no aggressive fish in there that harras another fish to death, then the fish will be relaxed and learn that they can't be harmed there.

At leat that is from my own observation of my fish. At the begining they are scared and skittish but with a few weeks they get really relaxed. I think with time they get the idea and the stress of being eated goes away.

I don't think the fish know that there aren't any sharks behind the rock, so the normal stress of trying to avoid being eaten is still there.

[Magma]

nah...the fish are more intelligent than you think and they do learn to feel comfortable in an aquarium. My fish got the routine right and they pretty much know the feeding hours and come right at the spot to get fed. They learn to trust us, as well as they learn to trust their environment with time. That is if there is no aggressive fish in there that harras another fish to death, then the fish will be relaxed and learn that they can't be harmed there.

At leat that is from my own observation of my fish. At the begining they are scared and skittish but with a few weeks they get really relaxed. I think with time they get the idea and the stress of being eated goes away.


I think the same way, when you put a new fish into the tank, they hide and dont show there face much, I put in a Royal Gramma and didnt see him for a week, but he slowly started to show his face more and more and now hes fine with me sticking my arms in tank to move corals or whatever needs to be done...

They get used to the captivity now if that lowers the stress of the fish who knows but I think its still there primal instinct to watch there back..

[Lance]

:pop2:
I just knew this article would bring out some some good stuff. :boxing:

[Magma]

:pop2:
I just knew this article would bring out some some good stuff. :boxing:

is there an online copy of this article? sounds like a good read.

[Lance]

is there an online copy of this article? sounds like a good read.

I'm not sure, but I'll look into it.

[Aquattro]

nah...the fish are more intelligent than you think

I don't know about that, my Border Collies are way smarter than my fish and they're still convinced that there are grizzlies in the backyard :)

[Lance]

Here you go. I think this works.

http://p0.vresp.com/bDvvro

[asylumdown]

I would say that given that the aquarium trade removes about 1/1 millionth of the fish from the ocean that the commercial fishing industry does every year, and the damage we do to reefs by removing coral absolutely pales in comparison to the damage drag net fishing, or dynamite fishing, or cyanide fishing does to the reefs of the world, that the ethics of how damaging this hobby is to global ecosystems is a totally mute point if anyone here eats tuna.

Reefs in places that have something to gain from having a steady supply of healthy corals and fish to export to the aquarium trade and regulate it accordingly (Australia and Hawaii for starters) can actually benefit from an active aquarium trade. True not all places are like that, but that's why my elegance coral is Australian and not from the Philippines. Most species of fish on reefs reproduce in numbers greater than the niche market of the aquarium trade could really make a dent in, and in the cases where that's not true, it's usually the research that happens as a result of the aquarium trade that helps us find that out.

As for the ethics of keeping animals in glass boxes - that's always going to be a matter of opinion, but one would think that everyone here had to come to peace with that little conundrum by now.

[Magma]

Here you go. I think this works.

http://p0.vresp.com/bDvvro

http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/arrested-tang-police-i-refuse-confess

Full article there :P

[Aquattro]

As for the ethics of keeping animals in glass boxes - that's always going to be a matter of opinion, but one would think that everyone here had to come to peace with that little conundrum by now.

Agreed. I guess my side of the fence feels that even though I've made peace with what I do, I'm not going to try and justify it with some story about research or saving fishies from sharks :) I am not a friend to the fish of the world (I eat tuna every day), but I'm ok with that.

[Youngster Dan]

Interesting read.

I only have one little issue with the article, with regards to measuring cortisol levels in the fish. It was stated that there wasn't really a difference in cortisol levels between captive fish (at various tank sizes) and fish in the "field". Now, I'm assuming you have to actually handle the fish to get a blood/cortisol sample?

Wouldn't the actual act of catching the fish induce stress (ie elevated cortisol) and so this stat is completely misleading? As every fish being tested is at an artificially elevated level of cortisol, and it being nearly impossible to take a baseline measurement?

[Aquattro]

Good catch Dan! :)

[asylumdown]

Interesting read.

I only have one little issue with the article, with regards to measuring cortisol levels in the fish. It was stated that there wasn't really a difference in cortisol levels between captive fish (at various tank sizes) and fish in the "field". Now, I'm assuming you have to actually handle the fish to get a blood/cortisol sample?

Wouldn't the actual act of catching the fish induce stress (ie elevated cortisol) and so this stat is completely misleading? As every fish being tested is at an artificially elevated level of cortisol, and it being nearly impossible to take a baseline measurement?

I haven't read the article yet, but in my field (primate studies) we measure cortisol in feces and urine, with urine being the ideal source (try running through the forest with a giant funnel held over your head...). It's one of the easier hormones to study because of that fact actually. Not sure how they got their sample, but it seems to reason that they can probably get it passively

[Lance]

Agreed. I guess my side of the fence feels that even though I've made peace with what I do, I'm not going to try and justify it with some story about research or saving fishies from sharks :) I am not a friend to the fish of the world (I eat tuna every day), but I'm ok with that.


Absolutely. My thoughts as well. I personally believe a fish is better off in the ocean than in my little pretend reef.
Buuuuuut, just to mix it up a little: How do we really know our fishies aren't perfectly happy in their little glass boxes. If we provide them with good water conditions, a healthy diet, suitable tankmates and hiding and swimming areas, they may after all be tickled pink. Fish pretty much run on instinct, and instinct says: eat and don't be eaten. I can provide them with that. So who the hell really knows? I don't pretend to.

[Zoaelite]

Turner, J.W. Jr., Nemeth, R., Rogers, C. 2003. Measurement of fecal glucocorticoids in parrotfish to assess stress. General and Comparative Endocrinology 133 (2003) 341-352

Interesting that 4 pages of debate have happened over an article with a single reference that isn't even relevant to the fish we keep. What base line is drawn for showing stress? Are there any other types of fish that this was tested on? The article is a lacking allot of scientific structure.

[2pts]

So while I may admire the intent to do well, believing we are is simply fiction. Reality is, we are a menace to the reefs!

100% agree.

Tang police, well my opinion is their overall effect may be that the average captive tang's swimming space will be marginally larger when compared to a tang that remains in the ocean.

Disclaimer: I have 2 tangs in my tank that is aproximately 130 gallons. If I can afford to, within a year and a half I will upgrade to a 200ish gallon tank.

[Aquattro]

Lance, don't you think you've caused enough trouble for one day?? :)

[daniella3d]

It may take a while before the cortisol level rise after a stress so they might have had plenty of time to take a sample without getting a stress response right away? could be.

then it could be that the fish returned to a normal level of stress after being handled so the stress hormones did not really rise. Maybe it take a constant amount of stress for this hormone to really show higher?

just my thoughts on it as I was wondering about the same thing when I read it.

Interesting read.

I only have one little issue with the article, with regards to measuring cortisol levels in the fish. It was stated that there wasn't really a difference in cortisol levels between captive fish (at various tank sizes) and fish in the "field". Now, I'm assuming you have to actually handle the fish to get a blood/cortisol sample?

Wouldn't the actual act of catching the fish induce stress (ie elevated cortisol) and so this stat is completely misleading? As every fish being tested is at an artificially elevated level of cortisol, and it being nearly impossible to take a baseline measurement?

[don.ald]

It may take a while before the cortisol level rise after a stress so they might have had plenty of time to take a sample without getting a stress response right away? could be.

then it could be that the fish returned to a normal level of stress after being handled so the stress hormones did not really rise. Maybe it take a constant amount of stress for this hormone to really show higher?

just my thoughts on it as I was wondering about the same thing when I read it.

statistics, well, they are just statistics! use them to create an argument/article and then defend it.
one can use this stat to show that fish are under constant stress...captive, in nature, or while being handled.
all i know is that the sale of tangs have increased dramatically since this thread was started:lol:

[daniella3d]

Well, surely beat the tang police assumption that a tang is stressed in a 90 gallons as they have absolutely zero reference or study to back it up, just their own personal assumption :)

This article may have only one reference, plus the personal experience of the aquarium administrator who wrote it, but it is interesting reading and informative, not just biased opinion.

I was happy to learn that a hippo tang does not cover thousand of kilometer a day in the ocean...as I was mearely told by a lot of people and which was the main argument against keeping a hippo tang in a smaller tank than 180 gallons.


Interesting that 4 pages of debate have happened over an article with a single reference that isn't even relevant to the fish we keep. What base line is drawn for showing stress? Are there any other types of fish that this was tested on? The article is a lacking allot of scientific structure.

[asylumdown]

Absolutely. My thoughts as well. I personally believe a fish is better off in the ocean than in my little pretend reef.
Buuuuuut, just to mix it up a little: How do we really know our fishies aren't perfectly happy in their little glass boxes. If we provide them with good water conditions, a healthy diet, suitable tankmates and hiding and swimming areas, they may after all be tickled pink. Fish pretty much run on instinct, and instinct says: eat and don't be eaten. I can provide them with that. So who the hell really knows? I don't pretend to.

I know we can't ever truly know the mind of another creature, but in primatology, trying to figure out the level of intelligence of other animals is sort of the name of the game, and I think we've gotten pretty good at it. I think animal owners and lovers have a tendency to anthropomorphize their pets to an extreme degree. I don't think that the fish we keep are swimming around in their tanks, waxing poetic for the days when they swam free on the reef.

Primatologists work with animals using something called an ethogram, which is a list that attempts to exhaustively catalogue the entire behavioural suite of an animal in the most basic functional units. Generally speaking, the smarter the animal, the longer the ethogram. The most exhaustive ethogram for chimps that I've seen was literally hundreds of pages long, a human ethogram would probably be in the thousands.

I think if I were to try and make an ethogram for a tang, I'd probably be able to make it to half a page, if I was being rather liberal with my categories. Fish have behaviours that they can and need to exhibit. If we put them in a circumstance where they are unable to exhibit those behaviours, they will probably get stressed out, but they're not going to be thinking about it. The best we can do is to try and replicate their environment as best we can, but if we can't, the fish is not going to have a complex emotional response and sulk while it thinks about what it would rather be doing. The fish we keep react to stimuli and conditioning, that's pretty much it. My last tang was too busy attacking it's own reflection when I kept the sides clear of algae to consider that it's tank was too small. However, it was clearly too small for that fish and it exhibited behavioural problems because of it (so it's gone to a much larger home now). None of the other fish in that system have major neuroses, unless I do something that makes the environment incompatible to them (say, put them with tank mates they will fight with).

If there is a problem with the environment they are in, the fish will react negatively. They will get overly aggressive, or they'll stop eating, or they'll get sick. If they're not doing any of those things, there's a good chance it's emotional state is as level as it would be anywhere else it wasn't getting eaten.

Keeping gorillas in cages however, is a totally different story.

[Lance]

Lance, don't you think you've caused enough trouble for one day?? :)


Who me????

[Mandosh]

It may take a while before the cortisol level rise after a stress so they might have had plenty of time to take a sample without getting a stress response right away? could be.

then it could be that the fish returned to a normal level of stress after being handled so the stress hormones did not really rise. Maybe it take a constant amount of stress for this hormone to really show higher?

just my thoughts on it as I was wondering about the same thing when I read it.

From what I know, cortisol levels in the average fish reach the highest levels around an hour after being stressed.

[Lance]

I don't think that the fish we keep are swimming around in their tanks, waxing poetic for the days when they swam free on the reef. Fish have behaviours that they can and need to exhibit. If we put them in a circumstance where they are unable to exhibit those behaviours, they will probably get stressed out, but they're not going to be thinking about it. The best we can do is to try and replicate their environment as best we can, but if we can't, the fish is not going to have a complex emotional response and sulk while it thinks about what it would rather be doing. The fish we keep react to stimuli and conditioning, that's pretty much it.
If there is a problem with the environment they are in, the fish will react negatively. They will get overly aggressive, or they'll stop eating, or they'll get sick. If they're not doing any of those things, there's a good chance it's emotional state is as level as it would be anywhere else it wasn't getting eaten.


Bingo! That's what I was trying to say! Well, I did say it, just not nearly as well. :lol:

[Youngster Dan]

Asylumdown, cool posts! I have never heard of an ethogram, but sounds like you do some really interesting stuff.

[Mrfish55]

I take it you were bored today Lance? Now I feel guilty, going to have to get a bigger tank now, thanks a lot!

[PoonTang]

...... and for his next trick Lance will have us all discuss the question "is God really there""

[shrimpchips]

Wouldn't the actual act of catching the fish induce stress (ie elevated cortisol) and so this stat is completely misleading? As every fish being tested is at an artificially elevated level of cortisol, and it being nearly impossible to take a baseline measurement?

both fish are presumably caught and handled so that effect should not be a confound. If they can see a difference, and there's no change to their baseline measures (while they might not be true baselines), then it's a fine measure.


And the citation is more than likely to be generalizable to other fish - besides, it certainly isnt the biggest generalization of the literature. Assuming one large ref dwelling genus with a similar behavior acts and responds similarly with Tangs isn't a bad assumption.

[Skimmerking]

...... and for his next trick Lance will have us all discuss the question "is God really there""

ROLMAO

[paddyob]

Interesting read.

I only have one little issue with the article, with regards to measuring cortisol levels in the fish. It was stated that there wasn't really a difference in cortisol levels between captive fish (at various tank sizes) and fish in the "field". Now, I'm assuming you have to actually handle the fish to get a blood/cortisol sample?

Wouldn't the actual act of catching the fish induce stress (ie elevated cortisol) and so this stat is completely misleading? As every fish being tested is at an artificially elevated level of cortisol, and it being nearly impossible to take a baseline measurement?

+1. I would like to see this actual test. Anyone have a link? A lot of science talk in here.

[Chin_Lee]

Is anybody willing to create a poll listing off the number off fishes that you ESTIMATE that you have bought and died while in your care? If I were to create this poll, I wouldn't even give the option of 0-10 because that is not realistic. And whatever choices anybody made, I would multiply by 1.5 to get the more accurate true numbers.
Put it bluntly, we all contribute to the practice of sacrificing animals for entertainment. So regardless you give the fish a 50 or 100 or 200 gallon tanks in comparision to their natural habitat, we are only trying to reassure ourselves that we are doing the right thing.

[globaldesigns]

...... and for his next trick Lance will have us all discuss the question "is God really there""

Oh NO, don't do it....

[fishoholic]

*lays a man-slapping on lance*

+1

I do advocate for tangs to have a decent sized tank to swim in and I often recommend at least a 90g for smaller tangs like koles/scopas/yellows and 180g and up for larger tangs and even more space 8-10 feet long tanks for naso tangs. IMO a baby tang under 2" is not going to need as much room to swim in as when the tang gets larger (over 6") so if you want to keep a baby tang in a smaller tank and plan (and actually do) re-home it then go for it, however the problem is when the person gets attached to the baby tang they have in their small (say under 40g tank) and the next thing you know you see a 6-7" tang who is the same length as the tank they are in, which at that point I will get on a soap box and say that isn't right. However I have seen the smaller tangs koles and scopas in 45g tanks and they seem perfectly fine and healthy so I while I would recommend a 90g to that person I am not going to freak out on them, however if it was a 8" unicorn tang in a 45g I would, but one of the smaller tangs no.

Now I am far from perfect and even admit that while I think bigger/longer tanks for tangs are better I have a 230g which is only 6 feet long and I do plan on adding a blonde naso to it. So really I'm not much better then the person who keeps a yellow tang in their 40g tank. This is a bit of a selfish hobby and while I do believe you should try to do you best to provide a decent home for the fish, there are times when we talk ourselves into adding a certain fish that we know might not be "ideally" suited to our tank.

A quote from the article "The members of the genus Naso and Prionurus are the true open water swimmers; they are the ones that require special consideration." I have to agree with this 100%. When I was cycling my 230g reef tank I saw a great deal on a naso tang he was 2-2 1/2" and I knew I wanted to add a naso to my 230g reef, so the deal was to tempting to pass up. However at the time the tank I had available to house the small naso in while the 230g finished cycling was a 30g cube :surprise: I knew it was wrong to put a naso (even a small one) in a 30g cube but because I knew a had a bigger home for him to go into in a few weeks I talked myself into it being ok. He was in the 30g for 2 months before the 230g reef finished cycling and he was a dark grey stressed out colour the whole time he was in there. He also swam speractically all over the tank, at the time I convinced myself that he was eating so he was fine. However I didn't even realize the colour change and the (IMO) stressed out swimming patterns until I transferred him to the 230g. After the transfer he was no longer a dark blotchy pattern colour and changed to a lighter solid grey colour and he no longer did jerky swimming movements, he swam across the length of the tank and IMO seemed significantly less stressed.

I think this part of the article is important to point out, so that people do not get the wrong idea from the article "Hopefully you don’t think that I advocate keeping fish in overly-small aquariums, as I do not. I always strive to give my captive fish the best possible environment. The exhibits I use for tangs at the public aquarium where I work range from 450 to 1,300 gallons. What I am advocating for here is a more civil discourse, more careful consideration of measurable husbandry parameters, and less reliance on subjective personal opinion."

[Youngster Dan]

both fish are presumably caught and handled so that effect should not be a confound. If they can see a difference, and there's no change to their baseline measures (while they might not be true baselines), then it's a fine measure.


Sorry, I'm going to disagree with this. Though my disagreement is purely trivial, as it seems the cortisol levels are likely measured passively by collecting it from fecal matter, and not from being handled.

I doubt cortisol levels are being added on top of each other like you suggest and you cannot simply take levels from one group and subtract it from another. For example, consider you and I have the same level of fitness and I am sitting reading articles on canreef and you are currently going for a jog. You will have a higher heart rate than myself. Now, imagine that we both have tangs in a small tank, and the "tang police" are out for blood and decide they are out to get you and myself. Both of us will sprint as fast as we can to get away from nasty insults and condescending attitudes of the tang police! If you were to then measure our heart rate after we have been sprinting for a while, our heart rates would be similar despite the fact that you had been jogging whereas I was sitting. So, from our sprinting heart rate data alone it would be impossible to determine what our "baseline" was.

Perhaps a silly example, but that is just how I interpret it.

[daniella3d]

Only one for me since I started a year and half ago and that was a green mandarin that was killed by a yellow tang :(

I sold the yellow tang. Shame because that green mandarin was with me since the begining and was fat and healthy eating white worms, bloodworms and fish roe. I have the female remaining but never again a yellow tang for me.

Now the most important thing in my tank is no aggression and any aggressive fish is sold.

The worse thing to do to fish is not doing quarantine and letting them live with parasites.


Is anybody willing to create a poll listing off the number off fishes that you ESTIMATE that you have bought and died while in your care? If I were to create this poll, I wouldn't even give the option of 0-10 because that is not realistic. And whatever choices anybody made, I would multiply by 1.5 to get the more accurate true numbers.

[Lance]

...... and for his next trick Lance will have us all discuss the question "is God really there""


If we find him, we can ask for his opinion on this subject. And while we're at it might as well clear up the "Which came first, chicken or egg?" question.

[shrimpchips]

http://www.reefmonitor.org/documents/Measurement%20of%20fecal%20glucocorticoids%20in%20 parrotfish...%5BGen%20Comp%20Endocrinol.%202.pdf

They do an assessment of cortisol and corticosterone levels from fecal matter, and find that baseline levels of aquarium acclimatized fish and reef dwelling parrotfish are not statistically different.

As for the testing of fecal matter vs direct (blood) measurement, they do both to validate the former method, and find that pooling fecal matter is an acceptable and useful metric for assessing stress hormone levels.

[MitchM]

Is Wayne (Naesco) on holidays?

[Lance]

Is Wayne (Naesco) on holidays?
:lol:

[Slick Fork]

A couple of things that seem obvious to me:
> When we're talking about whether a yellow or Kole tang would be happiest in a 90 gallon or a 150 gallon, I agree we're splitting hairs. The trouble with studies like this is that a newbie to the hobby will see this and figure the LFS was right when they were told they could put a Naso tang in their 20 gallon.

> As for the article, I think a lot of you missed what felt like the most important part to me. Going by Gallons, is like the inch of fish per gallon rule. His example was "My car gets 500 pounds to the Mile", it just doesn't work. What this guy is advocating is a "swiming space" measurement for the simple reason that you could have a 150 gallon "Tall tank" with some crazy measurement like 12long x 12wide x 8 feet tall and it would satisfy the "gallonage" rule but still be a horribly inappropriate for any kind of swimming fish. Likewise you could have a shallow reef that was 5 or 6 feet long, but shallow and not a lot of depth and provide the swimming room appropriate for larger fishes but fall below the "Appropriate Gallon Rule". His other beef is with "Tang Police" not caring about other fish like wrasses who also need a TON of room. Most importantly, he does NOT advocate a lack of standards when it comes to housing fish, just that the gallon rule most frequently used by the TP is not the standard we should be using. Also, worth noting in the scientific study he noted that it was sub-adult parrotfish being studied and not full grown specimens.

Finally, I find the attitude that since you already took it out of it's natural environment and put it in a glass box therefore you have no responsibility to provide an appropriate environment, to be an incredibly ignorant sentiment. If you enjoy steak, does that mean you shouldn't be concerned about whether or not beef cattle are grown appropriately, or be disturbed when you see abuse of animals? If you're driving along on a road, does the fact that the road already destroyed the environment it sits on make it acceptable to throw your garbage out the window?

Our hobby is destructive, there's no if's and's or but's about it, that said it does not absolve us of the responsibility to care for the creatures in our possession and to do what we can to mitigate the negatives by purchasing captive bred when possible, passing on fish that come from areas with shady collection practices when buying wild-caught, buying frags from fellow hobbiests as opposed to wild-harvested from the LFS, etc. Failure to do so will sooner or later attract attention from those who only see the negatives in this hobby and will result in more laws trying to be brought in like the one Vernon BC recently attempted which would restrict our ability to enjoy this hobby.

[daniella3d]

A lot of people will always do a lot of stupid things regardless of what they read or are being told. I don,t see how this article would advocate to a newby to buy a naso tang and put it in a 20 gallons especialy that they state the opposite mentioning that they are the exception needing lots of room.

wierd you got the opposite idea from it.

A couple of things that seem obvious to me:
> When we're talking about whether a yellow or Kole tang would be happiest in a 90 gallon or a 150 gallon, I agree we're splitting hairs. The trouble with studies like this is that a newbie to the hobby will see this and figure the LFS was right when they were told they could put a Naso tang in their 20 gallon.

[mr.wilson]

I don't know how the whole tang police thing started. I have never seen any evidence of tangs being stressed in a reef tank, due to spacial limitations. The other claim that I don't understand is that tangs need high water flow.

Marine fish do best in smaller tanks (1-20 gallons) with respect to wholesale and retail facilities. Retailers that use large holding tanks (30-150 gallons) cause more fish injuries, fish-to-fish disease transmission, aggression, and trauma as they are netted.

The reef structure design is more important than the actual tank size. I agree, wrasse can cover a lot more territory in a short time tan any other fish. They have well developed swim bladders so they can dart up and down as well.

[PoonTang]

If we find him, we can ask for his opinion on this subject. And while we're at it might as well clear up the "Which came first, chicken or egg?" question.

The egg of course, duh, doesn't every body know that?

[Skimmerking]

Way to go Lance you DINK!!!! now every one is so honed in on this thread nobody gives a crap about my build thread.......


:mrgreen:

[jorjef]

Sweet Louise someone burn the soapbox, dismatle the pulpit, steal the microphone, turn the lights out.....These type of threads make me howl......We all keep fish in boxes, no one is any better than the next...get over it...lol

[PoonTang]

Way to go Lance you DINK!!!! now every one is so honed in on this thread nobody gives a crap about my thread.......


:sad:

What thread? You had a thread?

[Lance]

Way to go Lance you DINK!!!! now every one is so honed in on this thread nobody gives a crap about my build thread.......
:mrgreen:


Now, now Mike. We're paying attention. Deltec skimmer; no make that a MRC. LED lighting; no make that 4x250W MH; no make that 3x400W; no make that 3x250W and 1x400W. See, I'm following your build thread. :mrgreen:

[kien]

Now, now Mike. We're paying attention. Deltec skimmer; no make that a MRC. LED lighting; no make that 4x250W MH; no make that 3x400W; no make that 3x250W and 1x400W. See, I'm following your build thread. :mrgreen:

Don't forget about the two guys with some big wood.

[fishoholic]

What thread? You had a thread?

:pound:

[fishoholic]

Don't forget about the two guys with some big wood.

Ummm Kien why do you always seem to make comments about some other guys wood? :razz: :lol:

[Skimmerking]

Ummm Kien why do you always seem to make comments about some other guys wood? :razz: :lol:
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm WOOD Laurie you are a PERV im telling DOUG.

[kien]

Ummm Kien why do you always seem to make comments about some other guys wood? :razz: :lol:

Okay I admit, I am a little jealous that he has so much more wood than I do. The reason for which will become apparent in a few days.

Despite what this article says about tank size I can't help but feel that my fish could use more room ;)

[globaldesigns]

Ah, now I understand the new thread Skimmer King made for Kien... you guys make me howl. You are all NUTS!!! Except for Skimmer King, cause he's got guns and knows how to use them.

[Aquaria]

As for the ethics of keeping animals in glass boxes - that's always going to be a matter of opinion, but one would think that everyone here had to come to peace with that little conundrum by now.

+1 i got a good laugh from this

[fishoholic]

Okay I admit, I am a little jealous that he has so much more wood than I do. The reason for which will become apparent in a few days.



Ummmm it's ok Kien I really don't need to see your wood :razz: :lol:

[reefwars]

it just occered to me that i use to keep bees in buttercontainers when i was a kid............im going to hell for sure.............but......they make a great buzz radio when you shake em up:)

[Slick Fork]

Sweet Louise someone burn the soapbox, dismatle the pulpit, steal the microphone, turn the lights out.....These type of threads make me howl......We all keep fish in boxes, no one is any better than the next...get over it...lol

I don't know that there is a lot of soapbox preaching going on here. Usually everyone behaves in a more or less civilized manner. In this instance, an article like this was put up for the explicit sake of discussing this topic and it's been/being discussed. If the OP just wanted a Tang Police Bash thread he would've stated that in his headline. It's not much of a discussion if the only ones commenting are the guys saying "STFU Tang Police, I'll do what I want".

As for no-one being any better than the next I will disagree. There is absolutely a difference between the person that takes into consideration all the factors relating to the well-being of his/her tanks inhabitants when making a purchase and the person who says "I don't care, I want tangs so I'll put 4 of them in my 33 gallon". In our hobby, not taking these things into consideration also has the side-effect of making it an unsuccessful attempt resulting in the death of a sometimes expensive creature, so most people who have been around a while know better than try some of this stuff for the simple sake of not throwing money down the drain. Call it ethics or economics, I don't care but you'd have to be blind not to see that there are good practices and bad practices.

On a related note, I don't think that there really is a problem with "Tang Police" on this site, on RC it can be absolutely brutal but I really haven't seen a whole lot of cases where people are stalking build threads and saying "You can't keep that fish in this tank". I certainly have never done that, and I have strong feelings on the matter. If someone posts a new thread with the title "Could I keep this fish in my tank", then they are inviting comments and opinions... both positive and negative and usually those of us who say you shouldn't keep it try to do so in a friendly, constructive manner. And I've never seen a thread titled, "I'm awesome and you guys suck because...".

[Skimmerking]

I
On a related note, I don't think that there really is a problem with "Tang Police" on this site,



MMMMMMMMMMM you must have not met Wayne then.:wink:

[reefwars]

MMMMMMMMMMM you must have not met Wayne then.:wink:




shhhhhh he'll hear you lol :)

[Aquaria]

As for no-one being any better than the next I will disagree. There is absolutely a difference between the person that takes into consideration all the factors relating to the well-being of his/her tanks inhabitants when making a purchase and the person who says "I don't care, I want tangs so I'll put 4 of them in my 33 gallon". In our hobby, not taking these things into consideration also has the side-effect of making it an unsuccessful attempt resulting in the death of a sometimes expensive creature, so most people who have been around a while know better than try some of this stuff for the simple sake of not throwing money down the drain. Call it ethics or economics, I don't care but you'd have to be blind not to see that there are good practices and bad practices.

just because you keep fish healthy and possibly happy does not take away from the ethics of keeping animals in glass boxes Weither there the recommended size or not to me it sounds like another justification I mean is there really a difference between keeping a tang healthy and happy in a 3' as in a 6'. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like ur saying that there is a big diff in someone who keeps a tang healthy and happy in small tank compared to the guy with a tang in a 6' tank with bad husbandry

[StirCrazy]

If you take a fish out of the ocean and put it into your tank, you are NO better than someone who throws a yellow tang in a 50 gallon...



concidering a 40 is the min recomended size for a yellow tang thats being generious :mrgreen:

Steve

[mr.wilson]

just because you keep fish healthy and possibly happy does not take away from the ethics of keeping animals in glass boxes Weither there the recommended size or not to me it sounds like another justification I mean is there really a difference between keeping a tang healthy and happy in a 3' as in a 6'. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like ur saying that there is a big diff in someone who keeps a tang healthy and happy in small tank compared to the guy with a tang in a 6' tank with bad husbandry

I agree. One could even argue that there is more stress in 6' tank than a 3' due to the added livestock and aggression that goes along with them. Fish-fish contagion is greater in a larger tank with more fish. The 3' tank may have one alfa male, while the 6' tank may have many competing for the position at the top.

I think tank size difference is negligible (within reason, and with some exceptions) for anything under 5,000 gallons. Whether it takes three movements or one to cover the length of the tank makes no difference in my opinion.

If you are breeding fish or trying to replicate their natural environment for a public display tank size may come into consideration, but for the most part, a glass box is a glass box.

I often read posts where some poor nano tank owner is being berated for having an ocellaris clown, meanwhile clown breeders use 5 gallon tanks because it is the ideal breeding environment.

[Aquaria]

Just to be clear I'm not trying to flame just stating that no one is better then anyone else as we all keep our awesome glass tanks in our little boxes on the hillsides

[Aquaria]

I mean we all know deepdown inside it's the thrill of playing god that's what were all addicted to hahaha

[Aquaria]

Ha your all going to hell well except me because iv acknowledged my sins rofl ;p

[Slick Fork]

just because you keep fish healthy and possibly happy does not take away from the ethics of keeping animals in glass boxes Weither there the recommended size or not to me it sounds like another justification I mean is there really a difference between keeping a tang healthy and happy in a 3' as in a 6'. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like ur saying that there is a big diff in someone who keeps a tang healthy and happy in small tank compared to the guy with a tang in a 6' tank with bad husbandry

I think keeping a fish healthy and happy does mitigate the negatives of taking him out of the ocean. It doesn't eliminate them, and I'm not naive enough to think that it does. But I don't see the hypocrisy in saying I'm doing something destructive so I should do what I can to minimize the impact as much as possible. The person who crams 4 tangs into a 3' x 1' tank will likely kill them all and thus wasted a (diminishing) resource.

I think that there really is a difference in stress level for a tang in a 3' x 1' tank vs a 6'x1' tank. If no-one believed that the size of tank mattered we'd all be stuffing 10 gallons with all sorts of fish, when we get to the difference between a 5 or 6 foot tank then I think we're splitting hairs but definitely I believe a 3' x 1' tank is too small. A 3'x3' cube with the rocks set up appropriately on the other hand would probably provide lots of swimming room. In my own experience, a couple of years ago I had a 5'x18" tank and had a purple tang in there. It was a nice well behaved fish, I switched to a 4'x2' tank and when the move was made the tang became much more aggressive with it's tankmates. That said, he stayed healthy and didn't exhibit any other signs of elevated stress. Was a 4 foot tank too small for him, maybe or maybe not but for my own reference I feel that it would be the minimum size I would feel comfortable putting a larger fish like a tang in.

If a guy has a smaller tank and has a fish that's healthy and happy then the fish is better off there then he would be in a larger tank with bad husbandry. What I'm trying to say is that "Good Husbandry" takes into account all the factors that contribute to a fish's health and stress levels. This includes swimming area, water quality, food, etc. A fish that's in too small a tank will not be healthy and stress free. A fish that's in an enormous tank with crummy conditions is not healthy and stress free.

[Aquaria]

I wasn't trying to say the stress levels are diff and that justifies it just that it don't make it Right what we do and will continue to do. The point of this hobby is to one day stop taking from the ocean and trade with others am I wrong. Were all guilty of keeping glassboxs and just because there healthy and happy don't make it ok but are any of us going to go home tonight and shut our tanks down well no I doubt it but what I'm trying to say is the ends do not justify the means but we all love doing it so We are and forever will be guilty of playing god. I for one love it and will continue to do it

[Aquaria]

I just realized how far this topic has devolved from stress lvl of tangs to the ethics behind glassboxs sry OP back to the original topic.... Dam those tang police &$!@ it I'm getting a tang for my 20g prove all you wrong ;p there we go back to the topic at hand

[Slick Fork]

I wasn't trying to say the stress levels are diff and that justifies it just that it don't make it Right what we do and will continue to do. The point of this hobby is to one day stop taking from the ocean and trade with others am I wrong. Were all guilty of keeping glassboxs and just because there healthy and happy don't make it ok but are any of us going to go home tonight and shut our tanks down well no I doubt it but what I'm trying to say is the ends do not justify the means but we all love doing it so We are and forever will be guilty of playing god. I for one love it and will continue to do it

I agree. Providing a good environment for our "prisoners" doesn't make it right, but it's the least we can do.

[Arok3000]

I find it a little funny that this conversation went from "The tang police are wrong" to "It's wrong to keep fish at all" and then to "I know it's wrong to keep fish from the ocean in our small glass boxes, but without evidence that they need an immense amount of room, the least we can do is blindly make them as comfortable as possible in our own opinions".

Not trying to stir the pot too much, but some of you have gone back to the tang police standard, of no refutable proof they require the room, but it's still wrong to keep them in a small tank.