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View Full Version : Moorish Idol feed. Sponge??


konaevent
10-21-2010, 04:55 AM
Someone told me
Moorish Idol have to eat sponges or it will
Die soon is it true??
He's in my new tank about week now eating pellets and nori. What else should I feed him??

FrenchAchilles
10-21-2010, 03:55 PM
I have one live for 5 years on nls pellets, and nori, the only reason I lost him was due to a velvet/ich issue.

cordeiro
10-21-2010, 04:11 PM
Are they reef safe?

Haloreef
10-21-2010, 09:37 PM
In my exp. NOT if you like your reef. Mine ate pellets flake and frozen but in his spare time he would rip wedge shaped holes in my sps. You would not believe what he did to my Chalices.
Keith.

globaldesigns
10-21-2010, 09:58 PM
Moorish Idols are not reef safe. this is the reason I don't have one.

Also they don't tend to live long because most times you don't get them eating pellets or nori or anything, so they die. If yours is eating pellets and so forth, that is great and I wish you luck. They are a beautiful fish.

naesco
10-22-2010, 04:45 PM
Wow it is a long time since I had heard of an lfs bringing in a Moorish Idol.
They die in LFS tanks because somehow even newbie reefers know they have no chance of success.

Yours has no chance of success despite the one post posted here.

Return it to the LFS for a full credit and politely comment to the lfs management that it is simply unethical to import them.

I believe those who own lfs or knowledgeable people who work there will agree with me 100%

sphelps
10-22-2010, 07:21 PM
Wow it is a long time since I had heard of an lfs bringing in a Moorish Idol.
They die in LFS tanks because somehow even newbie reefers know they have no chance of success.

Yours has no chance of success despite the one post posted here.

Return it to the LFS for a full credit and politely comment to the lfs management that it is simply unethical to import them.

I believe those who own lfs or knowledgeable people who work there will agree with me 100%
Haha Nice! I would bet most would actually disagree.

Hawaiian Moorish Idols can actually be fairly easy to keep, I would stay clear of Indo ones though. If it's eating already you're in fine shape. I don't really believe they need to eat sponge since many have kept them for years without. Pellets and Nori sounds like a good diet, you can soak them in various vitamins and additives for added nutrition.

I also had one for about a year in a fish only until I sold the tank, I experimented with corals and in my experience didn't work out so generally probably not reef safe.

globaldesigns
10-22-2010, 07:34 PM
Wow it is a long time since I had heard of an lfs bringing in a Moorish Idol.
They die in LFS tanks because somehow even newbie reefers know they have no chance of success.

Yours has no chance of success despite the one post posted here.

Return it to the LFS for a full credit and politely comment to the lfs management that it is simply unethical to import them.

I believe those who own lfs or knowledgeable people who work there will agree with me 100%

I also disagree... I don`t promote keeping any fish that will most likely die, but if it can be done and done properly then all be it. Here in Calgary I know of a couple LFS that have them, sell them and are quite successful with Moorish Idols. The thing with the LFS I am speaking of, they will not sell the fish unless it is eating, so this is good, and they are quite successful at it. If you can get a Moorish Idol to eat pellets and other things, then the chances of survivol do increase.

If you want to look at it this way, then do any of us have the right to take wild caught fish or marine life from the wild? We have no right what so-ever, so if we are going to do it, at least try to do it right! Put it another way, if we were to take you and put you in a glass box, do we have that right, same goes for any living creature.

Funny, how we want to satisfy our own cravings and desires at the expense of others and other living things. Things that make you go HMMMMMM.....

Haloreef
10-22-2010, 07:54 PM
Well I would also disagree. I know of two others who keep this fish and have had theirs for well over a year each. Maybe not a newbie fish, but hardly a, "no chance" fish.
Good luck with yours, beutifull fish.
Too many Parrots on this sight sometimes!
Keith.

George
10-22-2010, 10:29 PM
I neither agree nor disagree with naesco's comment. I subscribe to the philosophy that "buy fish that excites you, not the other people", but at the same time I also know that some fish have a lesser chance of surviving in an aquarium long term than other fish. Until we know more about those fish, I am not going to keep the fish. Moorish idol is one.

globaldesigns
10-22-2010, 11:41 PM
I neither agree nor disagree with naesco's comment. I subscribe to the philosophy that "buy fish that excites you, not the other people", but at the same time I also know that some fish have a lesser chance of surviving in an aquarium long term than other fish. Until we know more about those fish, I am not going to keep the fish. Moorish idol is one.

That is a great philosophy and very well put.

naesco
10-23-2010, 03:44 AM
My view is that as reefers we have an obligation to provide optimum conditions for the animals we choose to keep in our glass cages.
The chance of keeping a Moorish Idol alive is slim to none. Conscientious reefers do not want to see fish taken from the ocean home only to watch it die in their tanks.
One day we will know what it takes to keep them and until them we should leave them in their home.
Sadly, when this or similar fish come up in a post you read several success stories (which may be true) but you do not read about the overwhelming death stories unless you read reviews on the fish by experts. It is a disservice to newbies who may not know about the fish's poor survival rate.

AHHope
10-23-2010, 04:50 AM
we curently have 2 idols at my lfs. One has been in a display for almost 6 months eating everything we can throw at it. The other much larger one is for sale and is eating very well, not to mention the other one we last month is doing very well in its new home. I find that if you spend the proper time with any fish you would be amazed by what you can do.

Madreefer
10-23-2010, 05:59 PM
Everone has their opinions on this fish and I'll keep mine to myself. But whats the answer to the question that was posted? I would like to know that answer myself as well.

kien
10-23-2010, 06:01 PM
Wow it is a long time since I had heard of an lfs bringing in a Moorish Idol.

that's because you don't live in Calgary :biggrin: A few LFS get them in all the time! In fact, there are a couple of LFS that have at least two or three in stock at the moment.

But yes, as others have stated, if you have your fish eating staple foods already then I think you're good to go! I wouldn't worry too much about the sponges.

viperfish
10-23-2010, 08:14 PM
Also keep in mind that getting a Moorish Idol to eat is just one aspect of longevity. The tankmates, tank conditions, husbandry, and even flow in the tank all affect this very sensitive fish. I had one a few years ago and like most people it is no longer alive. I did have this guy eating mysis and even Nori from the clip and I thought I was home free but I couldn't be more mistaken. One thing I learned about these guys is the slightest change such as moving one rock, doing a water change, and basically anything outside the normal routine would stress the heck out of it and where most other fish would rebound quickly he would take days to regain his confidence. After one unsuccessful try which lasted a few months I decided as most have to never try to own one again. Fish stores will bring in anything that will sell and the only way to stop this is to stop buying these doomed species, the sad thing is this never seems to happen. I see LFS selling Nudibranchs that will die if they don't get a specific kind of sponge, electric scallops, stingrays, and the list goes on, it is very sad that they are viewed as revenue for the store and not as a species doomed to die. There are enough robust species to choose from in this hobby that there should be no need to bring home something that probably won't survive anyway.

RD
10-24-2010, 12:06 AM
Kieron Dodds, from Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine wrote an article on the Moorish Idol in 2008, titled; "Still Impossible After All These Years - Keeping Moorish Idol". He clearly admits that the main intent of his article was to discourage anyone from acquiring this species, as he feels this species has almost no chance in being kept alive in captivity beyond a very short duration.

At one point in the article he states "Pablo Tepoot is perhaps the single individual who has had the most success with this species" - unfortunately Pablo (the creator of New Life Spectrum) lost his last group of Moorish Idol to an electrical failure during a hurricane, at that point he had kept them thriving in captivity for 5+ years.
Something that most people would have considered impossible 15 or 20 yrs ago.

Can they be kept healthy & thriving long term, absolutely.
Are there any guarantees with this species, absolutely not.
Of course the same could be said about many things in this hobby, but that's a far cry from classifying Moorish Idol as being doomed to die in captivity.

Feeding foods such as mysis & nori will definitely not meet this species nutrient demands,
these types of foods have been tried many times over the years, and always end up a failure. I'm not posting this in defense of keeping Moorish Idol in captivity, but for those that try, take a hint from Pablo Tepoot as to what to feed, because getting this species healthy diet wise, is the single most important part of the equation.

So to answer the OP's question, diet wise, for long term success there is nothing required beyond feeding a high quality pellet that will meet & exceed all of your fishes nutrient requirements. Choose that pellet food wisely, and you will have already made it past your largest hurdle in keeping this species thriving in captivity.

Best of luck with your new MI.

fishoholic
10-24-2010, 02:12 PM
Also keep in mind that getting a Moorish Idol to eat is just one aspect of longevity. The tankmates, tank conditions, husbandry, and even flow in the tank all affect this very sensitive fish. I had one a few years ago and like most people it is no longer alive. I did have this guy eating mysis and even Nori from the clip and I thought I was home free but I couldn't be more mistaken. One thing I learned about these guys is the slightest change such as moving one rock, doing a water change, and basically anything outside the normal routine would stress the heck out of it and where most other fish would rebound quickly he would take days to regain his confidence. After one unsuccessful try which lasted a few months I decided as most have to never try to own one again.

This is what I didn't understand about MI's. I always thought if you could fine one that eats you'd be good to go. However what I didn't know is not only do you need one that's eating well you need to keep only peaceful tankmates with it and you can't have your hands in and out of the tank moving things around in it, because doing so can easily stress MI's and kill them. Impossible IMO no, worth it to try knowing how much of a PITA it is to keep them stress free and alive, IMO no.

I love MI's and I tried one once (that had been alive for 5 months and ate mysis) however from the trip back home (got it in Calgary) it got stressed and got a bit of ich on it, that and with my with my other fish harassing it a bit, it got stressed out and died a few days later. I will not try another one unless I am committed to having a tank set up strictly for one. Established FOWLR tank with a sump for doing water changes in, and the MI being the 1st fish in and any tankmate that looks at it the wrong way would be removed immediately.

To answer your question from what I understand sponge is a main part of their diet in the wild, that being said I don't know if the need it to live long term in captivity, or not but why risk it? I would buy sponge (I have seen sponge for sale at lfs) and add it to your tank, because it can only help not hurt having it.

viperfish
10-24-2010, 03:13 PM
Bob Fenner highly recommends the New Life Spectrum Pellets for successfully feeding MI's. Apparently there isn't a particular ingredient identified that sets it apart from the other foods but I guess by trial and error this food seems to work ( I hope they didn't try too many brands before they hit the right one).

RD
10-24-2010, 07:20 PM
Bob Fenner highly recommends the New Life Spectrum Pellets for successfully feeding MI's. Apparently there isn't a particular ingredient identified that sets it apart from the other foods....

There is much that sets it apart from other foods, but most of that falls under proprietary information.

viperfish
10-24-2010, 10:14 PM
There is much that sets it apart from other foods, but most of that falls under proprietary information.

OK my point was there are foods out there of comparable quality to New Life Spectrum. NLS just has an unknown ingredient, or the right combination of ingredients, or maybe its just the region where their ingredients are harvested that makes them more complete for the nutritional requirements of the MI. I just find it sort of odd that the health of most marine fish depends on a varied diet consisting of primarily live or frozen food and this fish, one of the most sensitive in the hobby, has had greatest success with a pellet.
I'm just generalizing here because I don't know anything more specific, neither does Pablo Tepoot, or Bob Fenner, so if you have something more please share. I would go out and get a Moorish Idol tomorrow if I knew the secret of successfully keeping one.

naesco
10-25-2010, 12:52 AM
Bob Fenner highly recommends the New Life Spectrum Pellets for successfully feeding MI's. Apparently there isn't a particular ingredient identified that sets it apart from the other foods but I guess by trial and error this food seems to work ( I hope they didn't try too many brands before they hit the right one).

Is Robert Fenner suggesting that Moorish Idol can be kept sucessfully?
If so could you point me in to the article your read.
Thanks

RD
10-25-2010, 02:40 AM
Bob Fenner has seen MI kept successfully for years, so none of this would come as any big surprise to him.

I just find it sort of odd that the health of most marine fish depends on a varied diet consisting of primarily live or frozen food and this fish, one of the most sensitive in the hobby, has had greatest success with a pellet.


Says who? I saw a marine tank that was full of the some of the most difficult to keep species, Butterfly Fish, Parrot Fish, Philippine Regal Angels, Majestic Angels, Rock Beauty, Moorish Idol, Achilles Tang, and numerous other species, and they all thrived on an exclusive diet of pellets.
That tank suffered a major crash a couple of years ago, but at the time the vast majority of the fish were over 12 yrs old, and none of them had ever seen live, or frozen food.

Bob Fenner has seen the same tank, a number of times.

IMO it's impossible to talk about comparable quality in foods, unless you are running long term feed trials, and feeding said food exclusively. No frozen, no live, no supplements at all. I suspect that many aren't willing to do that, so it's impossible to compare something that you've never personally tried. I also wouldn't be so quick to judge what Pablo knows, or doesn't know about the dietary requirements of marine fish, you might be surprised. :)

konaevent
10-25-2010, 02:49 AM
I feed him "omega one marine pellets from omega sea" with nori.
I don't know it's good enough or not
Anyway my MI and tank mates are like this now.

I also try to put more fish in before I open the store
It's new setup for the store so like to have lots of colors. ^^.

It's 230g with morish idol, clown pair, hippo, yellow, powder blue tang, juvi emperor, juvi blue, flame angel, fire goby, yasha and pistol shrimp pair, cleaner shrimp, fire shrimp, cowfish.
They're all small and peaceful.

I'm thinking maybe 2 or 3 more fish in
Any suggestion about fish??
Thanks, Tony

naesco
10-25-2010, 03:05 AM
Bob Fenner has seen MI kept successfully for years, so none of this would come as any big surprise to him.



Says who? I saw a marine tank that was full of the some of the most difficult to keep species, Butterfly Fish, Parrot Fish, Philippine Regal Angels, Majestic Angels, Rock Beauty, Moorish Idol, Achilles Tang, and numerous other species, and they all thrived on an exclusive diet of pellets.
That tank suffered a major crash a couple of years ago, but at the time the vast majority of the fish were over 12 yrs old, and none of them had ever seen live, or frozen food.

Bob Fenner has seen the same tank, a number of times.

IMO it's impossible to talk about comparable quality in foods, unless you are running long term feed trials, and feeding said food exclusively. No frozen, no live, no supplements at all. I suspect that many aren't willing to do that, so it's impossible to compare something that you've never personally tried. I also wouldn't be so quick to judge what Pablo knows, or doesn't know about the dietary requirements of marine fish, you might be surprised. :)

Bullshit!
You are obviously in the business of selling fish.
If that is the case it is your obligation to identify yourself otherwise you are in a conflict of interest.
Reefers, especially new reefers, want to hear from reefers who have experience to help them. They do not want to hear from fish sellers who do not identify themselves as such.

RD
10-25-2010, 03:23 AM
Ask Bob Fenner, then tell me I'm full of BS. BTW, I don't know Bob personally, but I guarantee that he would vouch for everything that I have posted in this discussion.

The OP in this discussion asked for input, I gave him the best advice that I know of, a diet that has been proven to have long term success with MI. As previously mentioned, I am not posting any of this in support of keeping MI in captivity. While I have a vested interest within the aquaculture industry (many here know who I am), I don't sell fish, nor do I give a flying flip what anyone here keeps, or feeds their fish.

Sorry for the intrusion, carry on .......

naesco
10-25-2010, 03:32 AM
Ask Bob Fenner, then tell me I'm full of BS. BTW, I don't know Bob personally, but I guarantee that he would vouch for everything that I have posted in this discussion.

The OP in this discussion asked for input, I gave him the best advice that I know of, a diet that has been proven to have long term success with MI. As previously mentioned, I am not posting any of this in support of keeping MI in captivity. While I have a vested interest within the aquaculture industry (many here know who I am), I don't sell fish, nor do I give a flying flip what anyone here keeps, or feeds their fish.

Sorry for the intrusion, carry on .......

I do not know who you are nor the vested interest you have in our hobby.
Why don't you let us all know exactly what that interest is?

RD
10-25-2010, 03:47 AM
Better yet, other than telling the OP that he should flush his fish down the toilet, because it's doomed to certain death, why don't you offer something constructive to this discussion? I supply a number of the vendors on this forum (not live fish) so I'm not going to go round & round with you, or anyone else. Your previous (bullshit!) repsonse is a prime example of why I typically don't get involved in these types of discussions here.

I offered some very sound advice, whether the OP takes it or not is up to him.

Happy fishkeeping.

viperfish
10-25-2010, 06:53 AM
I supply a number of the vendors on this forum (not live fish) so I'm not going to go round & round with you, or anyone else. Your previous (bullshit!) repsonse is a prime example of why I typically don't get involved in these types of discussions here.

I offered some very sound advice, whether the OP takes it or not is up to him.

Geez! Take a pill there buddy! So you sell New Life Spectrum, it's very clear what you sell and who you sell it to on your website, it's understandable that you would get on the defensive every time I mention alternative foods but lets face it, you're a salesman and next week or next year you'll be selling something else and it will be the best. Here is a reality check for you my friend, there are foods out there as good as NLS, so get over it! Don't go shooting people down for mentioning there are other good foods out there.

There are a lot of very knowledgeable and friendly people on this forum, unlike you they contribute with sound advice, you're just plugging your product and since you aren't a sponsor you have to do it very discretely. If everyone was like you and stayed away, there would be no forum. Boy I hope you have someone else looking after client relations because you are doing a real crappy job!

konaevent
10-27-2010, 11:20 AM
I found good guide about Moorish Idol.
According to this my MI really good now.

Identification: The Moorish Idol is not an Angelfish, nor a Butterflyfish, but rather a close relative of the Acanthruidae or Surgeonfish family. A one-of-a-kind Zanclidae family member, this fish is also often misidentified as a Pennant or Bannerfish, which are actually species of the Heniochus genus that are commonly referred to as the "False" or "Poor Man's" Moorish Idol.
Distribution: From Hawai'i to Australia, and from the west coast of Central America westward to the coast of Africa and the Red Sea.

Average Size: Generally to about 7 inches, but some adults may attain 8 or 9 inches.

Habitat: Should be provided with plenty of unobstructed swimming space, as well as ample hiding places to take refuge when feeling threatened.

Minimum Tank Size Suggested: 100 gallons.

Characteristics and Compatibility: Typically the Moorish Idol is a moderately-peaceful fish best kept with other non-aggressive species. In regards to keeping multiple numbers of these fish together, there are many opinions. Some aquarists recommend only keeping this fish singly or in mated pairs, while others suggest they only do well if introduced into an aquarium in groups of four, six, ten, or whatever.

From experience we know that large mature adults have a low tolerance for one other, and therefore keeping a single specimen or a mated pair is recommended. As far as juveniles, although this fish does seem to commune fairly well as a group, nonetheless their behavior towards one another can be "unpredictable". Sometimes a group of smaller Moorish Idols will get along just fine, while other times there may be one renegade in the group that becomes dominant, and decides to pick on all the others.

Diet and Feeding: Typically difficult fish to keep, larger specimens usually do not adjust well to aquarium life. With the tendency to ignore foods offered, most often their health will decline due to slow starvation. Smaller juvenile or sub-adult specimens may more readily adapt to their surroundings, but just the same, these fish are unpredictable in their feeding behavior.

For fish that refuse to eat, to survive in captivity live rock that is rich with coralline algae and sponge growth may be needed to stimulate their desire to do so. Offer finely chopped fresh or frozen shrimp, clams, squid, and other meaty fares suitable for carnivores, live mysid and brine shrimp, some vegetable matter as well as supplemental vitamin-enriched prepared foods that contain marine algae and Spirulina. Feed 2 to 3 times a day.

Reef Tank Suitability: Moorish Idols will often pick at LPS corals, and certain soft coral polyps. Although this fish primarily eats coraline algae and sponge in nature, this doesn't mean that it might not pick at other types of sessile invertebrates, or maybe even motile crustaceans.
Guide Buying Tips: Because these fish are typically difficult to care for in captivity, a key factor in the success of keeping a Moorish Idol is buying one that is in the best of health to start with. Here are some important things to observe and find out about this fish, before you decide to buy one.

The colors should be dark, and bright, not faded or washed out.
The fish's body should appear somewhat full and rounded out at the sides, the stomach area should not appear concave or sunken, and the skeletal structure of the fish should not be noticeable underneath the skin.
Ask someone to feed the fish while you are at the pet store. If they will not, because they may have set feeding times, find out when this is, and then ask to be present so you can see for yourself that the fish is eating well.
Find out what the pet store is feeding the fish, and match that diet.
If the fins and the tail appear to be frayed or ragged looking, or are partially burnt off around the edges, and the fish's eyes are cloudy, this is most often a sign of exposure to ammonia burns, which usually stems from bad collecting and shipping practices, but can also result from poor aquarium water quality conditions and care.
One of the best gauges for judging how this fish has been handled is to look at its long white streamer or pennant. If it is partially missing, or burnt off altogether, it's a sign the fish was at one time, or may be exposed to unfavorable conditions. However, if the streamer is missing, but you can see a new, small white filamentous-like growth starting to grow out of where the pennant used to be, its an excellent sign that the fish is getting the proper care, recovering and regaining a state of good health. Now if the pennant is missing, but no new growth is yet apparent, its a good idea to wait a week or two to see how the fish's condition progresses. It is not unusual for the symptoms of exposure to ammonia burn to be delayed, therefore a particular fish's condition can possibily decline as well.

RD
10-27-2010, 03:53 PM
From Bob Fenner's site, just a small sample of what Bob & his mods have to say with regards to feeding Moorish Idol in captivity.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/idolfaqs.htm

<Yes... to sing its praises once again, Spectrum pelleted foods really seem to be a/the "trick" here... Accepted readily and completely nutritious. BobF>

<<EXCELLENT! Of the few successes I have heard about concerning these fish, New Life Spectrum foods have played a key role>>

<<Good signs…but likely not good enough. Just “eating” is not enough with this fish as most will still decline. I think there is something about their diet/dietary requirements that we don’t yet understand…although, there has been anecdotal proof that specimens that will feed on New Life Spectrum pellets may be fulfilling that unknown requirement>>

My LFS is also trying to feed him New Life Spectrum Pellets at my request, and he is starting to show interest.
<<This will probably be key to successfully keeping this fish…along with housing it in a proper environment>>

<<It is not… Getting these fish to eat is not atypical…getting them to thrive/survive the long-term, is. If you don’t have it now, I very much suggest you obtain the Spectrum pelleted food (small [1mm] pellets)>>

I have had two Moorish Idols for a little over a year. They have both grown in size and eat a wide variety of food mainly Spectrum Thera A pellets.
<Ah, yes... have seen Pablo Tepoot's Zanclus... almost bulging at the seams on this food>

<<It’s not so much a matter of getting them to eat...but more a problem of providing the “necessary” nutrition. Many a Moorish Idol has seemed to be feeding well only to die from apparent malnutrition, or secondary disease/infection brought on by malnutrition. But on the bright side, there appears to be anecdotal proof that the pelleted foods from New Life Spectrum can/do provide the necessary nutritional requirements for these (and many/most other) fishes. If you choose to persist in your pursuit of these fishes I highly recommend you give the Spectrum foods a try>>


And medhatreefguy, here's a little reality check for you. I've been a member here for 5 years, and while I have responded to a few discussions involving diet, or fish nutrition in general, I haven't exactly been running around *plugging* products, nor was I shooting down (as you put it) other products. The fact of the matter is I don't know of any other diet that has kept MI's alive & thriving long term in captivity outside of NLS. If you or anyone else does, then by all means add your 2 cents worth, I'm all ears.

You may not consider my advice sound, or Bob Fenner's, or any of his mods.
That's fine by me, but so far I don't see anyone else offering Tony any input as to what to feed his fish to keep it healthy long term.

Bob not only agrees with me, he respects my experience & knowledge on this subject enough to have asked me in the past to join his team of advisors, to which I declined as in that case I did feel that it would be considered by some to be a conflict of interest. Kind of a dumb move for someone who's only interest is to plug his product, don't you think? :idea:

This happens to be a subject that I'm very well versed in, and I am as passionate about this hobby as you or anyone else on this forum. Over the years I've swapped spit with the best of them, including manufacturers, marine biologists, zoologists, DVM's, research scientists that specialize in this field, and with enough letters after their name to sink a ship. I'm 50+ yrs of age, and have been closely involved in the science of animal nutrition for over half of my life.



Perhaps in the future don't be so quick to judge every book by its cover, when you crack that book open you just might actually learn something.

globaldesigns
10-27-2010, 04:07 PM
Wow, interesting thread!

Firstly, all stores, LFS or sellers other than the normal reefer hobbyist should fully reveal themselves. Hiding for the sake of not being in trouble with the forum mods for breaking rules or not paying the sponsor fee's. Well come on now, follow the rules, or go away. Anybody here that may fall into this category, smarten up!

I think we are off topic here. The thread poster wanted info on Moorish Idols and feeding. Who cares about Bob Fenner, yes I have heard of him, but come on, he isn't GOD!!!

Respect needs to go both ways here folks, treat how you want to be treated.

RD
10-27-2010, 04:36 PM
Ironically years back I did have a business link in my sig line, just so I was on the up & up ...... and some people complained about that, so I removed it. Tony (Delphinus) told me at the time that he didn't have a problem with it, but to avoid any future angst among the masses I voluntarily removed it. I guess there's just no pleasing some people.

While Bob Fenner is indeed not god, he does have a lot of first hand knowledge as to what works best with MI kept in captivity.

Again, lots of comments in this discussion, but so far I haven't seen anyone providing Tony with an alternative method that has any type of long term track record behind it.


Either way, before this spirals out of control any further, or anyone else decides to give me a public dressing down for coming out of the closet to assist the OP, I think that I'll bid adieu.

I wish you the best with your new MI, and the opening of your new restaurant, Tony.

Cheers

viperfish
10-27-2010, 04:39 PM
This happens to be a subject that I'm very well versed in, and I am as passionate about this hobby as you or anyone else on this forum. Over the years I've swapped spit with the best of them, including manufacturers, marine biologists, zoologists, DVM's, research scientists that specialize in this field, and with enough letters after their name to sink a ship. I'm 50+ yrs of age, and have been closely involved in the science of animal nutrition for over half of my life.

Perhaps in the future don't be so quick to judge every book by its cover, when you crack that book open you just might actually learn something.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not judging you, I don't know you or anything about you. All I did was state the obvious. I did not agree with your statement that you stay away from Canreef because of bullshit responses:

[/QUOTE]Your previous (bullshit!) repsonse is a prime example of why I typically don't get involved in these types of discussions here[/QUOTE]

When you described you experience and wealth of knowledge I had a look at your posts to hopefully find a sample of this and all I found was New Life Spectrum. Someone such as yourself could certainly contribute a great deal to this forum and especially considering you are in the field of sales it would do nothing but help your business. Everyone here helps everyone out, I have met quite a few of the members in person and they have to be the best bunch of people out there, if we all had your attitude none of this would exist. If you are as great as you claim and Bob Fenner really wants you, then you could certainly be a guru on this forum, why not share that with the people right out your back door for the sake of the hobby.

albert_dao
10-29-2010, 05:44 PM
This is ridiculous. I don't get why RD has to defend himself every time he makes a post about NLS. The product has an immaculate track record and many who have had long term involvement in both the hobby and the industry, myself included, would be hard pressed to work with any other product.

When you described you experience and wealth of knowledge I had a look at your posts to hopefully find a sample of this and all I found was New Life Spectrum. Someone such as yourself could certainly contribute a great deal to this forum and especially considering you are in the field of sales it would do nothing but help your business. Everyone here helps everyone out, I have met quite a few of the members in person and they have to be the best bunch of people out there, if we all had your attitude none of this would exist. If you are as great as you claim and Bob Fenner really wants you, then you could certainly be a guru on this forum, why not share that with the people right out your back door for the sake of the hobby.

This is circular. RD doesn't post because his posts and field of knowledge revolve around NLS and its nutritional components. Whenever NLS pops up, all the trolls come out from under their bridges to flame him. What motivation should he have to contribute to a board where the loudest members are also the ones least inclined to behave rationally towards the information he presents?

albert_dao
10-29-2010, 05:45 PM
For the record, this is RD's original post to the OP.

Kieron Dodds, from Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine wrote an article on the Moorish Idol in 2008, titled; "Still Impossible After All These Years - Keeping Moorish Idol". He clearly admits that the main intent of his article was to discourage anyone from acquiring this species, as he feels this species has almost no chance in being kept alive in captivity beyond a very short duration.

At one point in the article he states "Pablo Tepoot is perhaps the single individual who has had the most success with this species" - unfortunately Pablo (the creator of New Life Spectrum) lost his last group of Moorish Idol to an electrical failure during a hurricane, at that point he had kept them thriving in captivity for 5+ years.
Something that most people would have considered impossible 15 or 20 yrs ago.

Can they be kept healthy & thriving long term, absolutely.
Are there any guarantees with this species, absolutely not.
Of course the same could be said about many things in this hobby, but that's a far cry from classifying Moorish Idol as being doomed to die in captivity.

Feeding foods such as mysis & nori will definitely not meet this species nutrient demands,
these types of foods have been tried many times over the years, and always end up a failure. I'm not posting this in defense of keeping Moorish Idol in captivity, but for those that try, take a hint from Pablo Tepoot as to what to feed, because getting this species healthy diet wise, is the single most important part of the equation.

So to answer the OP's question, diet wise, for long term success there is nothing required beyond feeding a high quality pellet that will meet & exceed all of your fishes nutrient requirements. Choose that pellet food wisely, and you will have already made it past your largest hurdle in keeping this species thriving in captivity.

Best of luck with your new MI.

viperfish
10-29-2010, 06:16 PM
This is ridiculous. I don't get why RD has to defend himself every time he makes a post about NLS. The product has an immaculate track record and many who have had long term involvement in both the hobby and the industry, myself included, would be hard pressed to work with any other product.



This is circular. RD doesn't post because his posts and field of knowledge revolve around NLS and its nutritional components. Whenever NLS pops up, all the trolls come out from under their bridges to flame him. What motivation should he have to contribute to a board where the loudest members are also the ones least inclined to behave rationally towards the information he presents?

Troll? Definitely not! I do everything I can to contribute to this hobby, my goal is not to roam the forum shooting people down. I come here mostly to learn and to chat with some really cool people. No harm is intended. I never said New Life Spectrum is bad, I use the stuff myself. I just mentioned there are COMPARABLE foods, PE Mysis, Ocean Nutrition, Reed Mariculture, just to name a few and the guy went off. I don't want to make any enemies here dao, life is too short for that. We just don't get too many people on here talking about how smart they are, so I checked his posts because what's the point of having this wealth of knowledge if you don't pass it along, and I'm always up for learning new things. I saw nothing that would convince me of his claims and that's it... end of story. I'm sorry man, all I took from his posts is that I should buy New Life Spectrum food. I didn't do anything but state the obvious, I didn't try to hijack the thread, or call anyone a Troll! No harm was intended so my sincerest apologies go out to anyone that may have taken offense.

naesco
10-29-2010, 06:57 PM
RD
You made two mistakes in your posting which you cannot justify.
1. You pushed your own product without identifying to reefers that you are a salesman for the product. In the future identify yourself!

2. When you were challenged to identify yourself you did not and this is a very serious ommission on your part. Most reefers rely on the advice that they find on this board. This is one of the main reasons I and other reefers come here. If the advice the reefer is reading is unknowingly suspect because you have failed to disclose you have a conflict of interest you are not doing the reefer or your company any favour.
Next time you post please be forthright.

albert_dao
10-29-2010, 07:50 PM
RD
You made two mistakes in your posting which you cannot justify.
1. You pushed your own product without identifying to reefers that you are a salesman for the product. In the future identify yourself!

2. When you were challenged to identify yourself you did not and this is a very serious ommission on your part. Most reefers rely on the advice that they find on this board. This is one of the main reasons I and other reefers come here. If the advice the reefer is reading is unknowingly suspect because you have failed to disclose you have a conflict of interest you are not doing the reefer or your company any favour.
Next time you post please be forthright.


1. I don't see it that way. I see this:

Bob Fenner highly recommends the New Life Spectrum Pellets for successfully feeding MI's. Apparently there isn't a particular ingredient identified that sets it apart from the other foods but I guess by trial and error this food seems to work ( I hope they didn't try too many brands before they hit the right one).

Followed by this:

There is much that sets it apart from other foods, but most of that falls under proprietary information.

Followed by the resulting bullshit.

Frankly, this, along with RD's original post to the OP addresses point #2.

For the record, I do not have anything to do with RD's business or NLS other than being a former seller and an enthusiastic user of the food.


Back to the point - I have PERSONALLY seen at least five Moorish Idols that have been kept longterm in captivity with NLS as the mainstay of their diet. The other contributing factor I saw in common with all these animals is that they were fed whenever their owners walked by the tank (3-10 times/day) and all tanks had MASSIVE flow, similar to what you would need for an Achilles Tang. Finally, all animals were solitary. They do not get along with each other very well in aquariums (I can see 2000k+ gallon tanks perhaps routing this rule).

naesco
10-29-2010, 08:13 PM
Albert

Are you saying that you can keep a Moorish Idol alive long term if.

1. It is housed in a large tank sufficient to accommodate a tang or Moorish Idol. (6 foot minimum)

2. The Flow is MASSIVE.

3. The fish is fed up to 10 times a day with the NLS food.

4. The fish is the only fish in the tank.

Am I correct on this?

Thanks

albert_dao
10-29-2010, 08:34 PM
Albert

Are you saying that you can keep a Moorish Idol alive long term if.

1. It is housed in a large tank sufficient to accommodate a tang or Moorish Idol. (6 foot minimum)

Yes

2. The Flow is MASSIVE.

Tentatively, yes.

3. The fish is fed up to 10 times a day with the NLS food.

Do not cherry pick my posts. I said3-10 times, quantity being whatever the owners felt like (without turning their tanks into cesspools). So yes.

4. The fish is the only fish in the tank.

No, solitary as in no other Moorish Idols.

Am I correct on this?

Thanks

Yup - though it certainly feels like I am setting myself up for a trap ;)

I would also like to add that all of this should be taken with a healthy dose of common sense with regards to the individual fish. If you are addressing me with the intent of catching me on a "gotcha" moment, consider my participation in this thread over.

Pre-emptive Godwin's Law Nazi post <here>