Does hyposalinity really work for ich?

[daniella3d]

Hi, I have a hippo tang in quarantine with a little clownfish and it has ich. I have been lowering the salinity from 1.025 to 1.09 over the course of one week. yesterday was at 1.012 and today it is finaly at 1.09. The first day I got the fish it started to have a few white spots, but only 2 on one side and 1 on the other side. Today there was a lot more popping out on both side so it is much worse. I would think that with the lower salinity it would go away?

The clown fish seem to be free of the infection, only the hippo (ich magnet) is covered in white dots. Does the hyposalinity really work? I use a well calibrated refractometer ATC, with temperature compensation control.

After I saw all these white spots I put half dose of Seachem Paragard as well. Fish has a great ogre appetite and eat fish roe, nori soaked in garlic, frozen cyclop etc.. Both have huge appetite but I am still worried that they white spots have come back stronger :(

It's not velvet because the dots are quite large, not powdery looking.

[Myka]

Ya, this should work for you. Personally, I wouldn't do hyposalinity and medication since that is quite stressful imo. Hyposalinity is a more natural treatment, so medicating on top makes the hypo a moot point. You should notice a difference in the next couple days. Also, be aware that your tank needs to remain fallow (fishless) for 8 weeks for the Ich to die-off otherwise the fish will just become infected again upon reintroduction. Ich will live up to 6 weeks without a fish host.

[Slick Fork]

Also keep in mind that the ich is protected as long as it is attached to the fish. It's the free swimming stage that gets annihlated in the hyposaline water. So you sort of gotta ride out the infection knowing that this is the last of it!

[tlo]

I have used hyposalinity successfully. It is my preferred method for treating ich.
here is an excellent article on it

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23131-hyposalinity-treatment-process.html

[daniella3d]

My main tank never had any ich in it because I always quarantine. that fish showed ich right at the begining and it was in the QT from day one, never in my display tank. Since that QT was empty and it was started with water from a frag tank that had no fish in it for 5 months, it is obvious that the fish had ich when I bought it.

This is a good exemple where quarantine can save a lot of hassle.

I am aware that the main tank must remain fishless for at least 6 weeks when you get ich in it, but so far so good, I have never seen it in my main tank and I will try to keep it that way. I am not putting that tang in my display tank until I am 100% sure it does not have ich any longer.

I know that the ich attached to the fish is protected, but I am worried that it got worse. Probably it is because the salinity was not all the way to 1.09 until today?

As for Paragard, it is supposed to be ok to use in lower salinity. I did half dose just to see if the fish would be stressed but no sign of stress and they are still eating good. I just want to make sure this don't fail.

Just wondering, why not use KH buffer? because that's what I used as a buffer as my ph seem stable for the past week. Also I use a skimmer 24/7 and although it does not skimm much, it does aerate the water well and keep the PH higher. So why can't I use Kent KH buffer?

Ya, this should work for you. Personally, I wouldn't do hyposalinity and medication since that is quite stressful imo. Hyposalinity is a more natural treatment, so medicating on top makes the hypo a moot point. You should notice a difference in the next couple days. Also, be aware that your tank needs to remain fallow (fishless) for 8 weeks for the Ich to die-off otherwise the fish will just become infected again upon reintroduction. Ich will live up to 6 weeks without a fish host.

[Myka]

I know that the ich attached to the fish is protected, but I am worried that it got worse. Probably it is because the salinity was not all the way to 1.09 until today?

Probably. you gotta ride it out with Hypo. It will get worse before it gets better. As long as the fish keeps eating he will be fine.

[howdy20012002]

btw, from what I understand, you can drop salinity almost immediately without any side effects. from what I have read, you can basically drop the fish in as long as the water is same temperature.
it is the increase that you have have to do over a couple of day period.
Neal

[Chin_Lee]

btw, from what I understand, you can drop salinity almost immediately without any side effects. from what I have read, you can basically drop the fish in as long as the water is same temperature.
it is the increase that you have have to do over a couple of day period.
Neal
same ph and temp are the two most important factors to maintain. Increasing the temperature during the treatment time will speed up the ick life cycle as well.
IMO you may as well deworm your fish with praziquantel at the same time while they are going through isolation.

[Lance]

btw, from what I understand, you can drop salinity almost immediately without any side effects. from what I have read, you can basically drop the fish in as long as the water is same temperature.
it is the increase that you have have to do over a couple of day period.
Neal


+1

[Lance]

Personally, I wouldn't do hyposalinity and medication since that is quite stressful imo. Hyposalinity is a more natural treatment, so medicating on top makes the hypo a moot point.


I've used hyposalinity with medications before with success. I was hesitant until I read this article:

www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish#h1

[daniella3d]

I guess if the fish don't look stressed, eat like little piglets, and are very active, it should be fine to assume they are not too stressed? I did half does of paragard and they don't seem affected one bit. So should I keep on with it? at least until the white dots disapear? The white dots are now much bigger, as if they had burst and have left large pimple of mucus, so not sure what to think of this. The poor fish look bad but act great and eat well. I feed them 6 to 8 times per day and they eat with gusto each time.

I've used hyposalinity with medications before with success. I was hesitant until I read this article:

www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish#h1 (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish#h1)

[Lance]

I guess if the fish don't look stressed, eat like little piglets, and are very active, it should be fine to assume they are not too stressed? I did half does of paragard and they don't seem affected one bit. So should I keep on with it? at least until the white dots disapear? The white dots are now much bigger, as if they had burst and have left large pimple of mucus, so not sure what to think of this. The poor fish look bad but act great and eat well. I feed them 6 to 8 times per day and they eat with gusto each time.


When I had the Ich and possibly Marine Velvet infestation I QT'ed all the fish in a 180g tank and treated with cupramine according to the bottle instructions. After I read this article I treated with hyposalinity as well. It worked very well for me although I went through tons of salt with all the water changes to keep the ammonia down. I left the fish in QT for 8 weeks and never lost a single fish in QT.

[daniella3d]

that's awfull. I hope I never have velvet in my tank.

the worse thing is when treating with cupramine, you cannot use an ammonia lock like Prime as it bind with the amine in cupramine and release the toxic copper and kill all fish.

So actualy no way to control ammonia beside water change. nasty. I have ordered Cupramine just in case something like that pop up but I will keep treating with paragard until the white spots completely disapear. My hyposalinity is at 1.010 now, 13ppt.

I read that it is dangerous to combine copper treatment and hypo because copper is more toxic in freshwater, but your experience show otherwise. Did you actualy treat with copper while in hyposalinity and was it at 1.010 or did you first do a copper treatment at normal salinity and then treated with hypo?

When I had the Ich and possibly Marine Velvet infestation I QT'ed all the fish in a 180g tank and treated with cupramine according to the bottle instructions. After I read this article I treated with hyposalinity as well. It worked very well for me although I went through tons of salt with all the water changes to keep the ammonia down. I left the fish in QT for 8 weeks and never lost a single fish in QT.

[Lance]

that's awfull. I hope I never have velvet in my tank.

the worse thing is when treating with cupramine, you cannot use an ammonia lock like Prime as it bind with the amine in cupramine and release the toxic copper and kill all fish.

So actualy no way to control ammonia beside water change. nasty. I have ordered Cupramine just in case something like that pop up but I will keep treating with paragard until the white spots completely disapear. My hyposalinity is at 1.010 now, 13ppt.

I read that it is dangerous to combine copper treatment and hypo because copper is more toxic in freshwater, but your experience show otherwise. Did you actualy treat with copper while in hyposalinity and was it at 1.010 or did you first do a copper treatment at normal salinity and then treated with hypo?


No I didn't start hypo until after the Cupramine treatment was finished. If I remember correctly the Cupramine treatment lasted 2 weeks. I waited a few days after and then started hypo.

[daniella3d]

Interesting. Since copper is much more efficient and potent than hypo, was it really necessary to treat with hypo after a 2 weeks treatment of cupramine?

No I didn't start hypo until after the Cupramine treatment was finished. If I remember correctly the Cupramine treatment lasted 2 weeks. I waited a few days after and then started hypo.

[Myka]

Thanks for the article Lance, I will read it later, no time now. I'm not sure what the article is really about, but imo hyposalinity is a good replacement for medications. If you can treat without medication, then why not?

I don't understand why people use copper to treat fish. It causes more damage than good, especially when there are much healthier alternatives that work just as well. Imo, if you're going to treat them with copper, why not give em a shot of cyanide while you're at it? :neutral:

IMO you may as well deworm your fish with praziquantel at the same time while they are going through isolation

Good call. I try to get all new comers with Prazi...makes a big difference for some of them.

[daniella3d]

Well probably because hyposalinity only work for ich, nothing else. It does nothing for velvet. Also I have read of resistant strain of ich and for those only copper will work.

Sometime copper is the only way to save fish but I would use it as a last resort and if in case of velvet. Velvet kill so fast that even copper need to be started early in the disease.

I don't understand why people use copper to treat fish. It causes more damage than good, especially when there are much healthier alternatives that work just as well. Imo, if you're going to treat them with copper, why not give em a shot of cyanide while you're at it? :neutral:



Good call. I try to get all new comers with Prazi...makes a big difference for some of them.

[Myka]

Well probably because hyposalinity only work for ich, nothing else. It does nothing for velvet. Also I have read of resistant strain of ich and for those only copper will work.

Sometime copper is the only way to save fish but I would use it as a last resort and if in case of velvet. Velvet kill so fast that even copper need to be started early in the disease.

You can't treat marine velvet with hyposalinity, but you can treat MV by doing repeated freshwater dips. I have been successful with this method. It does take quite a bit of work though because the infected fish has to be placed into a "sterilized" QT afterward. I always use display tank water in a QT, of course that doesn't work if the infected fish was already in the display! Sterilized meaning a QT that isn't infected with MV or a thorough disinfecting of the QT so as not to reintroduce the fish to the parasitic dinoflagellate. Yes, MV is an algae.

Here is a great article on Marine Velvet including a description of how to use freshwater dips for treatment:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.php

[marie]

I have treated my achilles and my 2 potters with cupramine and all 3 are still alive to tell the tale.....
I tried using freshwater treatments to treat MV on my achilles but after less then 90sec in the fresh water I thought I killed him and just couldn't go through it again

I only use hyposalinity on new fish if they have no signs of parasites, if I see anything suspicious I go straight to cupramine treatments


*Edit*But then I've become rather anal about keeping ich out of my display, my achilles has never had any ich since quarantine and I plan to keep him that way

[Myka]

I have treated my achilles and my 2 potters with cupramine and all 3 are still alive to tell the tale.....
I tried using freshwater treatments to treat MV on my achilles but after less then 90sec in the fresh water I thought I killed him and just couldn't go through it again

I only use hyposalinity on new fish if they have no signs of parasites, if I see anything suspicious I go straight to cupramine treatments

Hehehe, freshwater dips don't look nice because the buoyancy of saltwater is different than freshwater so they get all messed up. It does look like you`re killing them.

I refuse to use copper these days. Ten years ago when I didn`t know there were better ways or that copper can be so harmful I used it for Ich. Since then I have never had to resort to using copper since other treatments have always worked for me.

[daniella3d]

I don,t think cupramine is so nocif to fish as long as you don't use any type of water treatment or dechlorinator that could bind with the amine and release the nocif copper. So no Prime while using Cupramine or any other similar! But from what I read it is efficient and safe.

So I guess a freshwater dip is a good way to quickly help a fish plagued with velvet get rid of most of it, but personaly I would be so afraid of bringing that into my main system that I would want to treat with cupramine to be 100% sure it's dead.

I hope that you will never have to deal with any of this.

Hehehe, freshwater dips don't look nice because the buoyancy of saltwater is different than freshwater so they get all messed up. It does look like you`re killing them.

I refuse to use copper these days. Ten years ago when I didn`t know there were better ways or that copper can be so harmful I used it for Ich. Since then I have never had to resort to using copper since other treatments have always worked for me.