What's wrong? What to do with clown?

[Mother Reefer]

I've had my percs. (mated/t.r.) for 2 yrs now and I did encounter a small/short encounter with ick on my female this summer but all has been well till recently.

At about a year the female became chunky in one area (the area under her mouth- to just before the bottom fins (pectoral if I'm correct with the name)-especially where the first set of stripes meet on the bottom- and not further back than her gills).

A few weeks back she became less interested in her food (very strange because she used to be a real piggy) then totally stopped eating. She had a blackish/transparent spot for a day or two then it went away. One day she had a clear stringy feces (only that one time) and it did not return. I thought perhaps she had an internal parasite so I read up on them/asked advise from experienced aquarist friends and decided to wait and see if it would turn into something else. If she had an internal parasite (research said) she would have become emaciated and hasn't but her breathing has become more and more faster (mouth gasping) but the male is showing no problems and the tank parameters are great so I don't believe the water has anything to do with this problem.

Yesterday I woke up to find her swimming near the top and the male would periodically check on her and swim with her but she was swimming around and exploring.

This morning I woke up to find her swimming (more like she was floating on the top than swimming) near the top and her color has faded and she has a few small blackish dots on her and the area that was *chunky* before is not ridiculously enflamed to the point that her gills (area of and around) are swollen too.

The reason why I didn't not administer any medication before was that after speaking with an experienced (25+yrs) aquarist, his point was that we sometimes do more damage than good when administering meds when the problem may resolve itself (and we were not even sure what the problem may have been) and that internal parasites have usually been present in the fish for a long time and many times have a symbiotic relationship. An article stated that one should leave the fish be and hope that the parasite returns to living symbiotically with the host because meds usually do not cure these problems.

Has anyone any insight into this *problem/disease* my clown may have?

This morning I was ready to euthanize her (I absolutely dread this) but when I removed her she started thrashing about in the bowl she was in and showed me how much she protected being removed.

Does anyone have an opinion as to if I should try the meds? Considering how fast these new developments have arisen is there hope for her? Should I put her out of her misery?

Sorry for the long post, any advise would be greatly appreciated.

[Delphinus]

I don't know what to suggest. I wish it were under happier circumstances that I say "Welcome to Canreef."

I don't know about fish diseases. At the point that it sounds like she is at though, I don't hold out a lot of optimism that she will recover on her own. I would think a hospital tank treatment is called for. If you have a 10g tank fill it up with some tank water and be doing water changes on it daily (with water from the main tank).

I hope that someone else can jump in here and offer some more advice too. Good luck.

[Mother Reefer]

Thank you, I would also like it to have been under happier circumstances. I am leaning to believe that it may be a tumor, which is not unheard of in fish.

I hate to think that there is nothing I can do but if there really isn't anything I can do, I'd hate even more leaving her in this state.

Thanks again.

[MitchM]

I have heard of black ich or black spot disease before. Have you looked at this site yet?

http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/compldiagnodisease/a/aa041701.htm?iam=sherlock_abc

Mitch

[Mother Reefer]

I have looked at Black Ick along with a few other types of diseases but there are a few points that are directing me away from thinking this is the problem. One would be that the perc does not and has never had this and that it would also not explain away the bloating which is the biggest/most obvious problem. It's hard to explain but the spots she has are hard to describe because they aren't really *black* they are more just dark spots and they are about the size of a grain of sugar.

Considering how long she has had this bloating (which we assumed was just her getting fat) and how much it has grown leads me away from thinking it's anything other than an internal parasite or tumor. I was also thinking it could be

Amyloodiniosis
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/amyloodinium.html

but she doesn't display all those symtomps either. I'm a little hesistant to start using meds because all of these disease call for difference treatments and which would I use?

Thanks for the responses, I'll keep looking in here and at her and let you know how it goes.

[MitchM]

If you do think that it is a parasite, then I would definitely try a copper treatment before euthanasia. The thing with copper is that it will destroy pretty much all invertebrates, good or bad. Administering the correct dosage is very important, of course.

Good luck.

Mitch

[Bob I]

If you think it is a parasite would not a fresh water bath be worth trying :question:

[EmilyB]

Or even a long term hypo salinity such as used in ick treatments.

[Mother Reefer]

Actually I am tending to wonder if it could be a tumor more than anything because
1)if it were an internal parasite she would be emaciated and she is not
2)if it were ick or black ick or brook. among several other diseases she would have many other symtoms which she does not have
3)the male has nothing(and never has), not a sign of any disease and it were a external parasite (and considering how many there would have to be for her to be affected this much) he would have to contract something

I really doubt it's an external parasite and a fresh water dip would not affect an internal parasite even if that (internal parasite) is what the problem is and considering that it's unlikely she has an external parasite a f.d. would only aggrevate her situation.

Yes I thought about long term hyposalinity but considering the state she is in I really doubt that she has all that long. This morning when I found her she was floating (the movement from her, from my first impression could have been from water movement) and I thought she was dead and when I realized she wasn't is when I was wondering if I should put her out of her misery.

I think I'm going to try this- I'm going to qtank her with come cuprimine (Seachem) (copper) and see how that goes. Pipzine is what is recommened for internal parasites (most often) but copper is also recommened (althought most claim that pipzine works best in internal parasites) and covers more problems that pipzine.

Thanks for all the responses, if there are any other suggestions please let me know I'm winging it right now and hoping for the best. I'll let you know how it goes.

Ps. Does anyone have any pics of tumors in fish? where they are most often to present themselves? Any other reasons for one region bloating?

Pss. Another reason why I believe it to be something other than a disease is that she use to be a real pig and then she didn't want to eat in the morning and then she became a little more picky and then ate somedays not others.........basically her eating over the past few months her appetite has slowly diminished, making me wonder if it was this growth / bloating under her mouth?!