Well it happened again.....and yet again*updated*

[Murminator]

Well about 5-6years ago I got a rock of some ugly zoos didn't know much about them but they were sure slimey. I handled them with my bare hands. Well a day after getting them I tried fragging them up it went ok but a ton of slime and stink. That night I became very very sick throwing up I was freezing and had uncontrollable shaking but yet I was sweating so I thought a I had a fever. 3AM the wife takes me the emergency room they took me in quick I had no fever but I was drenched in sweat but felt I was freezing. They put me on IV did a bunch of tests and couldn't find anything...and it went away as fast as it came on. We thought it was a touch of the flu but I few days later while surfing found out zoos can be toxic. So put 2+2 together and figured that what it was. So from that day forward if you been to my house I trust nothing in my tank and I glove up.

Fast forward to last night ripped down my tank to get out a damsel I used my armpit long corallife gloves to take out most of the rock then switched to surgical gloves for more precission I doubled gloved cause I was handling rocks. I got the fish out and decided to clean the tank some. My back wall had about 200 of the ugly zoos growing up the glass so i scraped them off with a razor blade and tossed them. Since I had taken out 10gal of water for a water change the water was on bypass and just circulating through the sump and not going into the display. Those zoos where not happy and was letting off lots of slime that was circulating in the display...but I was double gloved. Clean everything up washed up real good with anti bacterial soap then had a shower.
Just before I went to bed around midnight I noticed my throat was sore and swollen thought great I'm getting a cold. About 2AM the dog started to breath heavy and wimper and pace. The wife got up and got the dog to drink and to eat and took her outside. She seemed fine and she had like a laboured breathing wife got up again made her drink some water took her out side again thought she was consipated we took her for a walk at 3am but she wasn't. She was fine in every way except the breathing I thought oh oh she might have licked some zoo water off then floor from drips, after a hour and half she was fine.
Then about 3:45 it hit me the freezing uncontrolled sweating/shaking but once again no fever the wife knew what was coming and fed me a ton of water, gravol and tylenol. I was almost struggling to breath and couldn't stop shaking after about 2.5 hours I was on fire and couldn't get cooled down the wife said if it goes past 6 I'm taking you in but it seemed to stop my throat opened back up and we got some sleep. I slept most of the am and now the dog and I are fine except every muscle and bone in my body hurts.

So if you are like me and have sensitive skin watch out for zoo/paly slime it can be toxic. Which I assume it absorbed via my forearms. So be careful out there when fragging....and keep the pets away

Here is some reading on Palytoxins


http://cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palytoxin

[Leah]

Geez, Glad to hear you are both okay. It is a good reminder to us all.

[Wingin It]

Whoa...crazy! I bought those crazy long gloves, but rarely use them. Great reminder why we should use them!

[Flash]

I hate that the corals I love will likely kill me one day! I am glad you're alright. I need gloves!

[ScubaSteve]

If you were moving rock, you might have also stirred up some bacteria which got onto you and the floor. You would be surprised how sick this can make you. I have come down sick after working in the tank before (before I had zoas even) and after a bit of looking around it appears to be quite common and it is usually foreign bacteria like e. coli, etc (I even learned that diseases such as TB can be passed to you from fish... weird!).

I'm glad you are alive and well and as is your dog. Reefs are death traps and it makes me wonder sometimes... saltwater, tons of electricity, poisonous critters, stining corals, mystery rashes (not wrasses)... Count me in!

[bvlester]

Well about 5-6years ago I got a rock of some ugly zoos didn't know much about them but they were sure slimey. I handled them with my bare hands. Well a day after getting them I tried fragging them up it went ok but a ton of slime and stink. That night I became very very sick throwing up I was freezing and had uncontrollable shaking but yet I was sweating so I thought a I had a fever. 3AM the wife takes me the emergency room they took me in quick I had no fever but I was drenched in sweat but felt I was freezing. They put me on IV did a bunch of tests and couldn't find anything...and it went away as fast as it came on. We thought it was a touch of the flu but I few days later while surfing found out zoos can be toxic. So put 2+2 together and figured that what it was. So from that day forward if you been to my house I trust nothing in my tank and I glove up.

Fast forward to last night ripped down my tank to get out a damsel I used my armpit long corallife gloves to take out most of the rock then switched to surgical gloves for more precission I doubled gloved cause I was handling rocks. I got the fish out and decided to clean the tank some. My back wall had about 200 of the ugly zoos growing up the glass so i scraped them off with a razor blade and tossed them. Since I had taken out 10gal of water for a water change the water was on bypass and just circulating through the sump and not going into the display. Those zoos where not happy and was letting off lots of slime that was circulating in the display...but I was double gloved. Clean everything up washed up real good with anti bacterial soap then had a shower.
Just before I went to bed around midnight I noticed my throat was sore and swollen thought great I'm getting a cold. About 2AM the dog started to breath heavy and wimper and pace. The wife got up and got the dog to drink and to eat and took her outside. She seemed fine and she had like a laboured breathing wife got up again made her drink some water took her out side again thought she was consipated we took her for a walk at 3am but she wasn't. She was fine in every way except the breathing I thought oh oh she might have licked some zoo water off then floor from drips, after a hour and half she was fine.
Then about 3:45 it hit me the freezing uncontrolled sweating/shaking but once again no fever the wife knew what was coming and fed me a ton of water, gravol and tylenol. I was almost struggling to breath and couldn't stop shaking after about 2.5 hours I was on fire and couldn't get cooled down the wife said if it goes past 6 I'm taking you in but it seemed to stop my throat opened back up and we got some sleep. I slept most of the am and now the dog and I are fine except every muscle and bone in my body hurts.

So if you are like me and have sensitive skin watch out for zoo/paly slime it can be toxic. Which I assume it absorbed via my forearms. So be careful out there when fragging....and keep the pets away

Here is some reading on Palytoxins


http://cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palytoxin

You may have inhaled some air born toxin that the zoes let go of. That would be the most likely reason your were having problems breathing and the dog also. I have asthma and have a personal attachment with breathing, I have died from asthma once; it's quite the experience. Chemicals can pass through the skin quite easily and may cause your through to contract and you may go into antipathetic shock.

This is what I think was happening you got the shocks and fever from your arms being in the goop and the zoes reals-ed a toxin into the air also which you and the dog inhaled causing your throat to constrict. so I would wear a mask and the long gloves if I were you. As the cumulative effect can be deadly I am also allergic to bee stings and when a wasp bits me old bites swell up also, I carry a eppy pen all the time if it is not on me it is in my truck...

Bill

[Cranky When Wet]

Dear Murminator,

You were very lucky! Palytoxins constrict heart muscles and can cause heart failure! The secondary attack is on red blood cells themselves and you and poochie both showed signs of similar nature tho you won't see a dog sweat...

The poison easily enters thru any skin tissue and orafice and acts surprisingly quickly. People often miss things like wiping foreheads with back of hand and getting a few droplets on facial skin!!!! That's all it takes! :laluot_20:

Your wife responded very correctly by getting all that water into you! The sweating is your body trying to rid itself of toxin and the feverish symptoms tell you the same thing.

It's good you did go to hospital as the potential for heart failure was very real.

Granted, I'm a relative newbie to saltwater; I am well versed in natural healing methodologies. One might consider Haberno tincture to level (lower/increase) blood pressure if you find your heart racing. You cannot overdose on this tincture and the worst that can happen is you toss it up. Should you actually go into obvious heart attack, you might down a full ounce of straight cayenne tincture... it can be administered orally by your partner even if you are unconscious. :laluot_32:

However, if your throat constricts; it may be time for antihistamines and a very fast ride to hospital!

Few doctors will immediately recognize symptoms as Palytoxin without you blatantly telling them that you think it's what's happening.

We all tend to think we are super tough when younger and we can often survive events easily. Palytoxin is not something to be underestimated and there are many aquarists who love Zoa's and Palys but refuse to keep them because they are thaaaat dangerous.

Glad you are fine and poochie too,

Bunny

p.s. love my Zoa's but am Hazmat ready to handle them and a face shield is a great idea.... been there and survived!!!!










Well about 5-6years ago I got a rock of some ugly zoos didn't know much about them but they were sure slimey. I handled them with my bare hands. Well a day after getting them I tried fragging them up it went ok but a ton of slime and stink. That night I became very very sick throwing up I was freezing and had uncontrollable shaking but yet I was sweating so I thought a I had a fever. 3AM the wife takes me the emergency room they took me in quick I had no fever but I was drenched in sweat but felt I was freezing. They put me on IV did a bunch of tests and couldn't find anything...and it went away as fast as it came on. We thought it was a touch of the flu but I few days later while surfing found out zoos can be toxic. So put 2+2 together and figured that what it was. So from that day forward if you been to my house I trust nothing in my tank and I glove up.

Fast forward to last night ripped down my tank to get out a damsel I used my armpit long corallife gloves to take out most of the rock then switched to surgical gloves for more precission I doubled gloved cause I was handling rocks. I got the fish out and decided to clean the tank some. My back wall had about 200 of the ugly zoos growing up the glass so i scraped them off with a razor blade and tossed them. Since I had taken out 10gal of water for a water change the water was on bypass and just circulating through the sump and not going into the display. Those zoos where not happy and was letting off lots of slime that was circulating in the display...but I was double gloved. Clean everything up washed up real good with anti bacterial soap then had a shower.
Just before I went to bed around midnight I noticed my throat was sore and swollen thought great I'm getting a cold. About 2AM the dog started to breath heavy and wimper and pace. The wife got up and got the dog to drink and to eat and took her outside. She seemed fine and she had like a laboured breathing wife got up again made her drink some water took her out side again thought she was consipated we took her for a walk at 3am but she wasn't. She was fine in every way except the breathing I thought oh oh she might have licked some zoo water off then floor from drips, after a hour and half she was fine.
Then about 3:45 it hit me the freezing uncontrolled sweating/shaking but once again no fever the wife knew what was coming and fed me a ton of water, gravol and tylenol. I was almost struggling to breath and couldn't stop shaking after about 2.5 hours I was on fire and couldn't get cooled down the wife said if it goes past 6 I'm taking you in but it seemed to stop my throat opened back up and we got some sleep. I slept most of the am and now the dog and I are fine except every muscle and bone in my body hurts.

So if you are like me and have sensitive skin watch out for zoo/paly slime it can be toxic. Which I assume it absorbed via my forearms. So be careful out there when fragging....and keep the pets away

Here is some reading on Palytoxins


http://cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palytoxin

[Seafan]

Scary! Glad to hear you and your dog are doing ok now. You may be interested to know if you ever have a different type of reaction due to your sensitivity, that heat applied to the area renders most toxins from our tanks/corals null. I have sensitivities as well, and am allergic to bee stings too. On the weekend I accidentally rubbed my wrist along my ricordia's without really feeling anything until I pulled my arm out of the tank. Have glove's but hate to use them. As soon as my arm was out in the air it was insanely red and itchy, and right away started to blister up, much like chicken pox. I tried antihistimine, afterbite and special creams I have been told to take but nothing worked and it got worse really quickly. Anyways looked it up on the net right away to see what to try, and I came across a post stating to try any type of heat, hot water bottle etc... Anyways didn't have any of those so I quickly grabbed the blow drier, set it on high and had it as close to the wrist as I could stand the heat. Well within 2 minutes of blow drying the pain and itch subsided, so I quit blowdrying, and within 10 minutes the blisters were almost 100% gone. They say have something with as much heat as you can handle. Hopefully you don't ever have to use this trick, but thought it might be useful info to share :biggrin: .

[bignose]

Good to hear your ok. I handle my zoas with my bare hands! I should learn from your experience and buy a pair of gloves.

[meenamjah]

er... makes me not wanna get any zoas... -_-

[fishytime]

Good to hear your ok.....must have been scary......your experience should be re-posted here.... http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=47571

[Murminator]

OK WTF???....Seriously WTF???.....It happened again last night since this last time this happened I have done 2 water changes no problems. Did a water change last night before I did it I blew any loose stuff off the rocks and took a kitchen brush and scraped off about 10 brown zoas that popped up in different parts of the tank. Did a 10% water change. About 2 hrs later the wife and I get hit with these sneezing fits and from sneezing so much our throats got a little sore. Went to bed about midnight, couldn't sleep sneezing coughing tight chest got up took a bunch of meds sat down watched some TV. Then about 0200 the dog started gasping and whimpering went for a walk she seems fine got back in the house 10mins started again went out side again this time she wouldn't walk. Now the wife is up her chest is tight. We go for a drive to get some air dog gets worse end up at the emergency vet at 0330. Explain to the vet I think my SW tank gave off some gas or bacteria after stirring it up, he said he never heard of it but didn't dismiss it. Gave the dog some IV to open her airways and a sedative said she wasn't is any distress and alert to what was going on so we were free to go home. Got home 0445 now the wife is starting to get the shakes going got a bunch of water and meds in her and got to sleep till 0830. Checked on the tank to find white water and 2/3's of the coral dead about 200 dead bristle worms hanging out of the rocks. Then opened all the windows and got out of the house. Went to work got a full face mask with organic/inorganic filters vacuumed it out moved the rocks looking for a Yellow tang and a mandarin no luck, other fish seem fine and did a 50% water change. Wife is fine today dog is defiantly not herself and won't eat unless you hand feed it to her but she is eating, my throat is killing me my chest is plugged and coughing up and rainbow of colors.

Does anyone know what exactly it could be? Gas? Bacteria? Even the term or name so I can tell a doctor. The tank has been running non stop 6 years without any re-landscaping. I'm thinking old tank syndrome there is a lot of dust(detris) down in the rocks and recently last 2 months my phos is through the roof 5.0+ calcium 620-640??:question: (with 2 different test kits) no ammonia and .5 nitrates ph 8.3 mag 1290

I'm almost at the point of hiring someone to come and rip it all down, the risk is getting to be to much to have.....or maybe a bare bottom FO tank

[reefwars]

Wow that's crazy I hope all you guys are ok and you get it figured out my best to you all:) if you ever need a hand let me know I'd be glad to help anyway I could:)

[Delphinus]

Sounds like something has a serious neurotoxin in there?? No idea what to suggest ... I mean, once, it's a freak occurence but this is 3 times now? I hate to say it but I think if it was me that tank would be done - sell or at least rehome the fish, and haul all the rock and substrate to the landfill. :neutral:

No idea what to suggest - good luck!

[Wingin It]

WHOA...Seriously Crazy! I'd be getting rid of the tank right quick too...end the suffering!

[jorjef]

Sounds like something has a serious neurotoxin in there?? No idea what to suggest ... I mean, once, it's a freak occurence but this is 3 times now? I hate to say it but I think if it was me that tank would be done - sell or at least rehome the fish, and haul all the rock and substrate to the landfill. :neutral:

No idea what to suggest - good luck!


I second that... do give you credit for sticking it out and alot of time and money are at stake..But it's affecting everyone in the household and for me that would be too serious

[daniella3d]

Airborne toxin!!!??? now what!

You died from asthma...huh..

Anyone who wish to get rid of their paly/zoanthids, I will take them all. I have no problem handling, toutching and getting my finger and skin full of palytoxin slime. I guess I love zoanthids and they love me back?




You may have inhaled some air born toxin that the zoes let go of. That would be the most likely reason your were having problems breathing and the dog also. I have asthma and have a personal attachment with breathing, I have died from asthma once; it's quite the experience. Bill

[Ograx]

6 Years is alot of time for all kinds of stuff to build up.

Have you ever taken the rocks out and cleaned them out?

[Cranky When Wet]

Well, I'm still up and it's late.... I still believe it's a toxin but not sure what the source is. You might take this to a site called WetWebMedia.com It's run by Bob Fenner and Anthony Calfo among many very qualified folks.... Here's a link: http://wetwebmedia.com/index.html

Just follow the rules for submitting questions...like good spelling/language etc... they are more formal than us; but, well worth getting to know.

They've helped me when I first started up.

Also, you should know some people are more sensitive/predisposed to toxins than others for a myriad of reasons: diet, heredity and those "unknown" factors. I've learned I cannot touch stressed paly's of any sort without serious palpitations, breathing trouble and tightness in chest.

The last thing you want is to induce a heart event. I hope the people at this site can help.

Please avoid the tank until you know more.

Bunny

[daniella3d]

In deed, some people will die when stung by a wasp or a bee and I feel only a short lived pain.

Some people will die if they ingest a slight bit if peanut butter...wich is yummy stuff to others.

When I bought my tube anemone the store owner told me that some people had their hand went numb after toutching or being toutched by the anemone. I toutch mine all the time when I clean the glass and don't feel a thing or any numbness.


Well, I'm still up and it's late.... I still believe it's a toxin but not sure what the source is. You might take this to a site called WetWebMedia.com It's run by Bob Fenner and Anthony Calfo among many very qualified folks.... Here's a link: http://wetwebmedia.com/index.html

Just follow the rules for submitting questions...like good spelling/language etc... they are more formal than us; but, well worth getting to know.

They've helped me when I first started up.

Also, you should know some people are more sensitive/predisposed to toxins than others for a myriad of reasons: diet, heredity and those "unknown" factors. I've learned I cannot touch stressed paly's of any sort without serious palpitations, breathing trouble and tightness in chest.

The last thing you want is to induce a heart event. I hope the people at this site can help.

Please avoid the tank until you know more.

Bunny

[Wayne]

Sounds like something has a serious neurotoxin in there?? No idea what to suggest ... I mean, once, it's a freak occurence but this is 3 times now? I hate to say it but I think if it was me that tank would be done - sell or at least rehome the fish, and haul all the rock and substrate to the landfill. :neutral:

No idea what to suggest - good luck!

I would sell off those zoas! Also let the buyer pull them from the tank and bag them as part of the sale. Honestly this hobby is for enjoyment and from the sounds of your expeniece its life threatening. Glad you and your dog are ok but you need to do something quick. :cry:

[marcingo]

Murry,

About three years ago I came over to your place and got a rock full of those ugly zoos you are talking about(brown and pretty big heads right). I put it in my 10 gallon and they were letting off the slime. Next morning when I woke up same symptoms as you mentioned in your tank. Fish dead, bristle worms all hanging out of rocks and dead, large feather duster worm dead, inverts all dead, hairy hitchiker crab I was trying to catch for a few weeks dead, pretty much everything except for the slimy zoos.

It is definately the zoos that did it. In a larger system I am sure it wouldnt have happened but I didnt think and put 30 or so of those zoos in my 10 gallon.

Maybe they all reacted at once for some reason in your tank and released the slime.

[andestang]

I would scrap the idea of reselling them to someone. I hope things go well for you.

[Wayne]

I would scrap the idea of reselling them to someone. I hope things go well for you.

Yeah after reading that they did the same in another tank I now agree that garbage might be the best solution :sad:

[2pts]

Wow, I hope you all are ok.

My very first coral was a large rock plastered in Zoanthids.

I had no idea at that time that they contained one of the deadliest natural toxins in the world. I moved them around and around in the tank, covering my bare hands in the slime.

I never developed any symptoms and am damm lucky I did not.

I now rarely touch them but when I do I first check for any cuts on my hands.

After reading this thread today I'm gonna go get those long gloves.

[2pts]

Got this off wiki ( I know its not always accurate) but still scary...

"His zoanthid was found to contain 2-3 milligram of palytoxin per gram.[9] (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/#cite_note-8) For comparison, the intravenous LD50 dose of palytoxin for a grown man is less than 8 microgram. Thus each gram of the offending zoanthid contained enough venom to kill at least 125 grown men."

[daniella3d]

It's definitly not the zoanthids that killed all your fishes and CUC. It must have been something else. Probably one fish died and produced ammonia that killed the rest. It happens all the time without zoanthids and if you had fishes in a 10 gallons tank, that was calling for trouble from day one.

Dunno how many fish you had in there. My frag tank is 20 gallons and I had a mandarin in there for 4 months without any problem, then I had a damsel and no problem either. I put all sort of zoa and paly in there and they slime a lot after I frag them but never killed anything and never noticed the slightest thing wrong.



Murry,

About three years ago I came over to your place and got a rock full of those ugly zoos you are talking about(brown and pretty big heads right). I put it in my 10 gallon and they were letting off the slime. Next morning when I woke up same symptoms as you mentioned in your tank. Fish dead, bristle worms all hanging out of rocks and dead, large feather duster worm dead, inverts all dead, hairy hitchiker crab I was trying to catch for a few weeks dead, pretty much everything except for the slimy zoos.

It is definately the zoos that did it. In a larger system I am sure it wouldnt have happened but I didnt think and put 30 or so of those zoos in my 10 gallon.

Maybe they all reacted at once for some reason in your tank and released the slime.

[daniella3d]

that was not luck. Zoanthids were never found to carry the palytoxin. Read coral magasine as they have a good article on zoanthids.

Only a few species of palythoas and propalythoas may carry the toxin, and especialy a rare one from Hawaii that was used to poison arrows.


Wow, I hope you all are ok.

My very first coral was a large rock plastered in Zoanthids.

I had no idea at that time that they contained one of the deadliest natural toxins in the world. I moved them around and around in the tank, covering my bare hands in the slime.

I never developed any symptoms and am damm lucky I did not.

I now rarely touch them but when I do I first check for any cuts on my hands.

After reading this thread today I'm gonna go get those long gloves.

[Zoaelite]

that was not luck. Zoanthids were never found to carry the palytoxin. Read coral magasine as they have a good article on zoanthids.

Only a few species of palythoas and propalythoas may carry the toxin, and especialy a rare one from Hawaii that was used to poison arrows.

That's what I was under the impression of also, I have over 100 species of zoas and usually go glove-less when handling (Fragging is a different story, that being said you should always exercise caution when handling both for you and your zoas health). I have never experienced anything like that from the tank but we are harboring complete ecosystems so you never know what's growing.

I'm on board with Tony, might be time to purge the tank if it's causing harm to the whole house hold. Wish you the best!

[whatcaneyedo]

that was not luck. Zoanthids were never found to carry the palytoxin. Read coral magasine as they have a good article on zoanthids.

Only a few species of palythoas and propalythoas may carry the toxin, and especialy a rare one from Hawaii that was used to poison arrows.

You're making my head hurt.

Order Zoanthidea
Suborder Brachycnemina
Family Zoanthidae
Genus Zoanthus, Palythoa, Protopalythoa...


"It has long been known that zoanthids such as Zoanthus and Palythoa contain toxic chemicals...." The Reef Aquarium Vol 2 by Delbeek and Sprung pg 70

[Zoaelite]

All Cnidocyte's contain toxin, and all species from the order Zoanthidea belong to the class anthozoa so they have Cnidocytes.

There for all corals contain toxic chemicals.

As much as I empathize for murm I don't think all of this Palytoxin finger pointing is order. There are tones of things that could make you sick from the tank, palytoxin is only one of them.

[Myka]

Maybe you could get some Sundial snails to eat the Zoas? My Filefish also loved to eat Zoas. Seems like a waste to scrap a bunch of rock when you could potentially clean it up. If you're going to scrap it, I would happily take it off your hands to try to fix it up.

[marcingo]

It was two tiny clowns and they were ok for the entire time 3-4 months. Then the day the zoos go in everything is dead overnight. No symptoms before that so I know for sure it was the zoos.



It's definitly not the zoanthids that killed all your fishes and CUC. It must have been something else. Probably one fish died and produced ammonia that killed the rest. It happens all the time without zoanthids and if you had fishes in a 10 gallons tank, that was calling for trouble from day one.

Dunno how many fish you had in there. My frag tank is 20 gallons and I had a mandarin in there for 4 months without any problem, then I had a damsel and no problem either. I put all sort of zoa and paly in there and they slime a lot after I frag them but never killed anything and never noticed the slightest thing wrong.

[daniella3d]

Well that's the thing, you don,t know for sure. You may have introduced a bacteria, or a parasite that killed your fish and that polluted the water. There could have been some heavy metal in the water in wich the zoa was in. If it was a zoanthid, and not a palythoas, it is very unlikely it was palytoxine as they were never found to carry it.

Especialy clown fish are very resistant to toxin. One of my friend had one of her anemone stuck in a powerhead and released toxins in the tank. Everything died overnight except her clownfish and invertebrates. The anemone survived.


It was two tiny clowns and they were ok for the entire time 3-4 months. Then the day the zoos go in everything is dead overnight. No symptoms before that so I know for sure it was the zoos.

[daniella3d]

toxin maybe but not palytoxin.

Coral magazine, volume 7, november 2010:

"Zoanthus spp. haven't yet been confirmed to contain this toxin."

All Cnidocyte's contain toxin, and all species from the order Zoanthidea belong to the class anthozoa so they have Cnidocytes.

There for all corals contain toxic chemicals.

As much as I empathize for murm I don't think all of this Palytoxin finger pointing is order. There are tones of things that could make you sick from the tank, palytoxin is only one of them.

[DisneyCoralReef]

You and your dog are very lucky dudes. Definitely do not see as fortunate endings in our emerg department. Appreciate you sharing this, because being new to the tanks I didn't even know there were any corals that were poisonous enough to cause THAT much harm. Thanks for this thread-a good heads up.

[whatcaneyedo]

"Palytoxin acts by changing the electrical properties of the Na-K pump and causes depolarization in heart, skeletal and smooth muscle cells and nerves resulting in paralysis and eventually death (Seyama, 1991). Gliebs et al. (1995) found this toxic substance in many of the Caribbean species of Zoanthus and Palythoa but the levels were highly variable and did not appear to correlate with their reproductive cycle or with the amount of zooxanthellae." The Reef Aquarium Vol 2

[Murminator]

Well a little good news all fish accounted for and alive except a yellow tang that was heathy and fine when the lights went out. tank water is still pretty white skimmer going wild empty the cup about every 9-12 hrs. Still smells like death in the house.

Set up a quick 33G today moved the few remaining corals and a couple rocks and 1 clown that that kept swimming in front of the return pump nozzle I assume trying to get cleaner water. File fish, coral beauty, mandarin, and 3 clowns all ok crusing around and eating so right now I will leave them all. Next saturday is the big day I am kicking everyone out and going to rip down the tank for a complete rebuild dump the sand and kill off the rock. It will get rebuilt into a FO tank the wife always liked the non reef safe fish whenever we go to the LFS. Then I think I will build another nano I had good luck with nano's all SPS except for some acans and plates for the sand

Thanks for everyones encouraging words on this but right now I think it's the best way rather than playing russian roulette trying to find the problem.

These are the zoas I'm talking about the heads are the size of a dime and they stretch real long even 6" under MH lights and a produce alot of slime, a fist size rock of them will 1/2 fill a sandwich bag of slime :eek:....and they are zoas not paly's they all grow on a interconnected mat not individual like palys....I seen them sometime stay real short and almost get a silver/white tinge to them


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2072/164/85/631841303/n631841303_1426552_4393.jpg

[Murminator]

Thanks to cranky when wet for the link lots of info here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/zoanthidcompfaqs.htm
Here is what happend to another guy


Killing Palys. Zoanthid control, human toxicity f's– 12/04/09
Dear Crew,
<Glenn>
I have a tank being over run by brown polyps. I believe people here call them Texas Trash Palys. At first it looked nice to have a large mat of these but this is getting ridiculous. They were growing on all the rock, sand and back wall. Now I have reason to believe they are making me ill.
<No bueno!>
8 weeks ago, I did a lot of work on my tank, mainly removing algae and removing Palys growing on the sandbed. So my hands were in the water. I was wearing gloves, but they only come up above my wrists. I don't remember having any cuts. That night, I had trouble sleeping due to chills. I got up and went into the bathroom and blacked out. Busted my head open and bruised my ribs in the process. Went to the hospital but had no fever. My lower BP# was initially really low. Recovered an moved on.
A few weeks ago, I discovered a leak in my sump. So I broke down my tank and put all the live rock, including Palys in totes. That night, I had chills again and felt dizzy when I stood up. This time I sat down and did not black out. I recovered later in the day. I got a new DT and setup the new tank and sump. Put the LR and Palys back in. The water smelled terrible. All my Ricordea were dead but the Palys were alive. The can with the fish had a few rocks with Palys. Two fish were dead and the others were near death. That night I got the chills again. My remaining fish were dead by morning.
<Bad, bad and worse>
I'm thinking all of this is from the Palys.
<Could be>
Even if their not the cause, I want to get rid of them anyway. They are reduced in number, but I'm sure they'll be back. My tank completed a cycle and I've started adding some hermits and a brittle star to clean up anything left decaying in there. I as hoping to begin restocking fish this weekend. How can I kill the Paly's and not have another cycle of the tank?
<Remove all rock with them, the Zoanthids on them... Bleach... for a day... Rinse, let the "old" rock air dry... for a few days... Place back in the system with some new atop to reseed with other forms of life>
Not to mention avoid taking the rock out of the tank and manually removing them?
<This is what is necessary... Either that or nuking/bleaching all in place.
Yes, I am serious. You are by far not the first or worst to be malaffected by these Sea Mats... Do take care. Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Glenn

[DisneyCoralReef]

Unreal! glad that guy turned out ok in the end. A great lesson learned on my end. Wouldn't have known any of this was possible without this thread Great info.

[marcingo]

Herein lies the problem. We are all calling these zoos. At least the ones I got 3 years ago not sure if they are the same trouble makers were palys from what I know a paly to be. Long stems, bigger heads (maybe just smaller than a dime).

So I would say yes they were probably palys and I incorrectly said zoos.

I dont think they had heavy metals in the system since they came out of an established tank with inverts. I also had the exact same symptoms with all the bristle worms coming out of the rock and dying on the sand bed along with everything else. There was also a bad smell in the water which smelled exactly like the palys before and after I put htem in the tank. I also made sure to put just the rock and corals into my tank and not the water it was transported in.

I guess its truly hard to ever tell what did it but being so close in symptoms its a crazy coincidence that within 7 hrs of the palys being in my tank everything dying.




Well that's the thing, you don,t know for sure. You may have introduced a bacteria, or a parasite that killed your fish and that polluted the water. There could have been some heavy metal in the water in wich the zoa was in. If it was a zoanthid, and not a palythoas, it is very unlikely it was palytoxine as they were never found to carry it.

Especialy clown fish are very resistant to toxin. One of my friend had one of her anemone stuck in a powerhead and released toxins in the tank. Everything died overnight except her clownfish and invertebrates. The anemone survived.

[daniella3d]

It's hard to tell, it could be the palythoas, but this could also be caused by bad bacterias in the water. Anything in the vibrios family. they are very dangerous and cause all sort of disease in coral and humans. Brown jelly is caused by this bacteria and protozoa taking over.

If it was smelling bad, I would say a bacteria because palythoas are gewy and slimy but they don't smell much, but bacterias are extremely smelly.
Just take a breath at the skimmate and you will see :)

There are definitly a lot more dangerous stuff in the aquarium than just palythoas slime.

It's just hard to visualize everything dying in a tank only due to some palythoas. I have so many in my tank and I frag them and they slime like crazy and never caused any harm to anything. I have a few different types of wild button polyp palythoas that fit the description of the dangerous specie, yet nothing has hapened. I have one that is starting to become quite pretty with a peach center and becoming really huge. It was just brown at the beginning.



Herein lies the problem. We are all calling these zoos. At least the ones I got 3 years ago not sure if they are the same trouble makers were palys from what I know a paly to be. Long stems, bigger heads (maybe just smaller than a dime).

So I would say yes they were probably palys and I incorrectly said zoos.

I dont think they had heavy metals in the system since they came out of an established tank with inverts. I also had the exact same symptoms with all the bristle worms coming out of the rock and dying on the sand bed along with everything else. There was also a bad smell in the water which smelled exactly like the palys before and after I put htem in the tank. I also made sure to put just the rock and corals into my tank and not the water it was transported in.

I guess its truly hard to ever tell what did it but being so close in symptoms its a crazy coincidence that within 7 hrs of the palys being in my tank everything dying.

[Murminator]

Last night the sump got a little low and gurgled a bit topped it up after that throat felt a little scratchy dog started pacing opened all the windows to air out the place.....wicked stuff and I have to say we don't live in a tiny apartment we have a 2100 sqft house and the tank is in the basement.

Had enough took the day off today and ripped everything down found the dead fish 1st I thought it was a sponge on the bottom of a rock. I had around 100# of LR and about a 4" sand bed. The sand.... was..... nasty it reeked of H2S and was jet black about an inch down. Blocked off the basement had high powered fans in the basement windows and wore a full face mask. Went outside once to cool down after I removed the sand and walking around the back yard all you could smell was rotten eggs. House smells nice a clean now and the wife is happen once again.

Sand is on the way to the landfill rock is outside in tubs getting a fresh water bath. Tank was hauled outside washed, vinegared scraped down with a razor blade back painted black. Stand cleaned up and tank back in the house on the stand rest of the equip soaking in vinegar in the garage. Canopy sitting on sawhorses waiting a rebuild Might be a good time to redo the sump and order a new pump.

[daniella3d]

This sound more like old tank syndrom hydrogen sulfide rather than palytoxine. Hydrogen sulfide does have a rotten egg smell. This gas was probably what was making you sick.

The sand.... was..... nasty it reeked of H2S and was jet black about an inch down. Blocked off the basement had high powered fans in the basement windows and wore a full face mask. Went outside once to cool down after I removed the sand and walking around the back yard all you could smell was rotten eggs.

[Myka]

Palys will have sand stuck to them and have a gritty texture on their "necks", Zoas won't and have a smooth texture. It has nothing to do with size of polyp.

[2pts]

Only problem that I have ( took my H2S Alive coarse a few years ago ) is I remember that the rotten egg smell "weant away" quickly. Really it is your sense of smell being destroyed, but I think that was at extremely high doses which makes sense as a small fish wouldn't create a high dose of H2S as compared to an oil rig blowout.

[daniella3d]

It's not really the dead fish that created it, it's more the 4" deep sand bed that was black with anaerobic pockets for many years collecting organic matter.


Only problem that I have ( took my H2S Alive coarse a few years ago ) is I remember that the rotten egg smell "weant away" quickly. Really it is your sense of smell being destroyed, but I think that was at extremely high doses which makes sense as a small fish wouldn't create a high dose of H2S as compared to an oil rig blowout.

[Cranky When Wet]

"Palytoxin acts by changing the electrical properties of the Na-K pump and causes depolarization in heart, skeletal and smooth muscle cells and nerves resulting in paralysis and eventually death (Seyama, 1991). Gliebs et al. (1995) found this toxic substance in many of the Caribbean species of Zoanthus and Palythoa but the levels were highly variable and did not appear to correlate with their reproductive cycle or with the amount of zooxanthellae." The Reef Aquarium Vol 2

HUGE THANKS to whatcaneyedo for finding the details!!!! I for one, would not be arguing with Sprung or Fenner.

I love zoa's and paly's as much as many people and keep many colonies of them.

All I have been saying is that the potential for real danger is there. You may feel nothing, or you may feel itchy, or you can get rather dead....

Having lived through terrifying bouts of heart palpitations; shortness of breath; and chills: I simply will not risk grabbing "ungloved" a rock full of slimey paly's, or Zoa's, again. I've no problem getting my hands wet feeding my Acans, Blastos, and Scolymia...but, I've learned where and when to draw the line. Of course, one never knows what other microbe may not like me LOL.

This post is not about scaring people out of keeping Zoa's. It is all about sharing knowledge in the hope people become informed.

Bunny
aka that Cranky Blonde

[Cranky When Wet]

Thanks to cranky when wet for the link lots of info here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/zoanthidcompfaqs.htm
Here is what happend to another guy

You're very welcome Murray >:-) WetWebMedia.com is practically my bible when it comes to all things watery..... It's managed by people who are well educated and some who are even notorious (LOL) in Marine Biology.

After all was discovered with your tank, I think your initial symptoms pointed to palytoxin. Finding black/water/sand is a secondary set of values that may lead to another analysis... unfortunately, my background is not such that I can even surmise what happened.

I am very glad things are working out for you regardless >:-) You may find it amusing but; I'm slowly removing my relatively shallow sand beds and relying almost entirely on liverock as biological filter now. Been enjoying how much cleaner the tanks are and how easy it is to manage because I can discount copious factors the old sand beds gave birth to LOL!

Cheers from Cowtown!

Bunny
that Cranky blonde >:-)