T5 lighting questions

[Delphinus]

Couple questions I'd like to bounce off you folks..

1) What guage wire do I need to wire up T5 sockets? It looks like 18 guage solid core that needs to be able to push into them. Is this correct?

2) The plan is to have 8 24" (24w) T5's on the light rack. I have a Workhorse 7 ballast which is supposedly good for up to 220w. 8*24=196w so I'm within the limits of the ballast but the ballast only has 6 leads. Can I wire all 8 lamps in series with all 6 leads, or would it be better to split it in two, and do 3 leads to one set of 4 and 3 leads to another set of 4? These are only 24" lamps so the linear length of the lamps is 16 feet (I have no idea if that's an important detail or not..)

4) For the "actinic effect" what do people like better: URI or Gieseman? Or are they about the same?

[Rbacchiega]

1) uh...wha
2) see #1
3) WHERE"S QUESTION THREEEEEEE
4) I'm a big fan of Gieseman

[Delphinus]

Sorry I guess I was counting up in bitshifting instead of sequentially. In binary that would be questions 001 (1), 010 (2), and 100 (4). That's my story and I'm sticking with it. It has nothing to do with lack of sleep or not enough coffee .. no wait, why am I denying this - I'm pretty sure lack of sleep, lack of caffeine affect pretty much everything I do. :redface:

Anyhow, so you're of the opinion that Gieseman > URI then .. okey dokey... thank you!

[phi delt reefer]

1. 18 guage solid core should be fine and is used in most fixtures/diy

2. workhorse ballast are not T5 specific -they HARDSTART which is tough on bulb life expenency. with that said, TEK uses them in their fixtures as does Aquatantics (spelling?). Their justification is that hardstarts are ok if you arent turning the lights on several times a day and in our reefs we usually turn them on once a day. I have no data to back up the longetivity issue but with the number of bulbs your looking to drive and the 8-12 month bulb expectancy i would error on the side of caution and change the ballast to an Accustart or similar.

if you do choose to stay with the workhorse, get a second one and run 6 off one and two off the other (you can get a wh5 instead of a wh7 to save some $$) or 4 and 4. That way you can run a dawn dusk effect if you want and you can still have some light should one ballast blow. Workhorses are pretty cheap to begin with anyways. I know with IceCap they have a length and bulb number max depending on the ballast. 6 leads on the ballast would make me think 6 bulbs is the max (running 36"/39w at most)

4. ATI bulbs have the most par from what actual testing shows. By actinic are you looking for the most blue look? try the ati blue plus (comparable to the kz super blue) but has high par. Alot of halide users use them to give there tanks a more 14-15k look while running a 10k halide.

-vince

[Pescador]

My Workhorse 33's use 18 awg solid as well. I second the motion for separate circuits for more dawn-dusk options.
But I'll have to go with Geismann as well but I was looking for the purple fluorescing look not the CF kind of blue.

[Delphinus]

Ok so I guess it helps if I get my facts straight. Just looked at the ballast and it's 4 leads not 6. So to wire up 8 lamps I could go with one lead to each set of 2 lamps, or do them all in series with all 4 lamps leads wired together. Would there be a difference? I'm leaning towards doing 4 sets of two.

I see what you're saying about doing 4 lamps on 2 ballasts but this is just to get me going for now. I might add more ballasts down the road and/or more lamps depending on how tight it is up there with everything. It bears mention that this is supplemental lighting anyhow, the main lights are 3 * 400w Radiums. I am going for a dusk/dawn effect with the t5's and hoping for a wee bit of coral fluorescing much like what I had when I had my old 75g going. Back then I ran 110w URI VHO actinics and I really liked those. I've heard that t5 actinics aren't as good as the old VHO actinics and so far when I ran t5's on my smaller tanks I haven't found an actinic that was as strong as those, but there are more choices available.

Anyhow I don't know if I want to go with all actinics or even super blues for that matter seeing as the Radiums are already pretty blue and I don't really want to go for a discotheque blue theme on the tank, so I might go for a mixture of lamps with maybe half of them being either blue or actinic and then something else for the other 4.

As for the starts .. I bought these sockets that are shunted which I thought were better for the Workhorse ballasts with whatever starting mechanism those ballasts use? I don't really understand the nitty-gritty details but if it's better to replace the ballast down the road with something else, I can look at that, but for now I'm sort of mandated of using what I already have in my packrat pile and making it work. :lol:

[fishytime]

Im a carpenter not an electrician so I wont even attempt to claim to know anything about that sort of stuff,..... but I have used a lot of different T5s.....Im using the KZ superblues ATM and I really like the color they produce(although not a true actinic bulb)

[Fish Head]

Im running 24" bulbs 1 actiniic and 1 fiji pink, also have 2 wh 7s that i would like to run when i build my cube. running uri bulbs now

[Delphinus]

Is it better to run 2 T5's in series, in this case 2X24w; or is it better to shunt one socket over to the second? Darn it, I think I'm going to have draw a diagram. Stay tuned for some mad MSPaint drawing skillz!

[Delphinus]

Ok so what I'm referring to as "in series" is "option A" and "shunted" is "option B."

I'm trying to find some wiring diagrams online but not finding anything on Fulham's website that seems to give blessings to the idea of doubling up a lamp of any size per lead. But I know people have done this but if it shortens lamp life then I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not..

6805

[Delphinus]

This ancient thread from aquaria.ca seems to suggest you just twist the 4 red wires together and run the lights in series if you want 2x110 out of 2 lamps. Would the same principle apply to 8x24w? The lights might actually be overdriven slightly.

http://aquariacanada.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244

Argh, my head is swimming. :lol: Need me an electrician to chime in methinks!

[phi delt reefer]

This ancient thread from aquaria.ca seems to suggest you just twist the 4 red wires together and run the lights in series if you want 2x110 out of 2 lamps. Would the same principle apply to 8x24w? The lights might actually be overdriven slightly.

http://aquariacanada.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244

Argh, my head is swimming. :lol: Need me an electrician to chime in methinks!

The wiring is the easy part. An electrical engineer maybe better suited to comment on how the ballast will react to multiple bulbs and bulb length.

Heres an additional thought on this subject;

the ballast spec advises this ballast is only good for 4x54w bulbs. If you have a look around MOST ballast manufacturers have a specific ballast for 24w/39w t5s and seperate one for 54w and higher. I believe this has something to do with how much energy the bulb needs to start (think of what happens when you run a larger power compact on a ballast rated for smaller bulb, it just flickers but never fully fires) In this scenario the bulbs may recieve too much juice on start up and possible fizzle or just not start. I could be wrong but there has to be reason for this difference. WH5s are rated for the 2 foot bulbs you are looking run and they can only run a total of 4 bulbs, the Wh8s can run 6.

Remember that a ballast can only start so many bulbs at once - this is also why you can not run 8 bulbs. A good example of this is the ICECAP 660 ballasts - they can run any combination of bulbs up to 16' in length as long as they DONT exceed 4 bulbs. Once again this relates to the amount of energy required to initially start the bulb.

You said you were running three halides - is there room to instead run two four foot t5s in the front of your tank and two at the back? you would have better coverage that way too. Also your cost goes down significantly for 4 foot bulbs dont cost twice that of a 2 foot bulb:biggrin: . 4 foot bulbs also have higher par than their smaller equivalents. Same goes for reflectors, the 2 foots ones arent half the cost of the 4 foot ones. Get the LET reflectors from the REEFGEEK site - they are the best in the industry.

here are the specs from the fullham site;

http://www.fulham.com/Detail_CategoryWise.php?category=Ballast&type=WorkHorse

on the right side of that site they have a bulb configuration/wiring diagram assistant. in the first dropdown select T5 Linear HO, in the second one you will see none of their ballast can drive 8xF24HO

one last thing (this is getting long, sorry :cry:) - overdriving T5's throws off their spectrum - so if you go and pick up some nice actinics at a specific spectrum then overdrive them you wont get the "Advertised" colour you were looking for. Plus it reduces lamp life :cry:

cheers

vince

[Delphinus]

No unfortunately there is no room for lengthwise running of the bulbs. Trust me that would have been so much easier!

I'm not too hung up on squeezing extra PAR or an extra month of life out of the lamps. All this is for is a little bit of colour bump and a dusk/dawn effect.

Ok so the number of lamps is an issue then. Nuts, I was hoping not to buy a new ballast, but if it can't be avoided then it can't be avoided. At least WH's are reasonably inexpensive and running 4 lamps off 4 leads is good and and easy.

Thanks for the input..

[phi delt reefer]

if your just looking for a little color pop have you consider 3w royal blue cree leds? alot of nano reefers use them on their sun pods to give them actinic pop. if this is something you would consider i can get you some pictures. they last 50,000 hours so it would be a one time install.

vince

[Delphinus]

Sure, I'd love to see pictures always! :cool:

[phi delt reefer]

heres a link to Evil66 Sunpod royal blues that he sold for Sunpods - he was running a 150w halide (14k radium) - which i believe is the same baseline as your system from your earlier comments.

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=194607

heres some pics of the just the LEDs running in a tank
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t218861.html

the pics arent the best but the corals really flouresce (cant spell that word for the life of me!)

[banditpowdercoat]

The wiring is the easy part. No electrician will be able to assist in your question, you need an electrical engineer to comment on how the ballast will react to multiple bulbs and bulb length.




Honestly, WTF is with that statement? Your implying that an electrician will not know? That Engineer's are somehow Superior in knowledge? What gives you the right to assume that? Just because I may only hold a Red Seal ticket, and not an EE, doesn't mean I would not know.

Sorry, but statements like that **** me off to no end. Engineers tick me off too.....

[phi delt reefer]

Honestly, WTF is with that statement? Your implying that an electrician will not know? That Engineer's are somehow Superior in knowledge? What gives you the right to assume that? Just because I may only hold a Red Seal ticket, and not an EE, doesn't mean I would not know.

Sorry, but statements like that **** me off to no end. Engineers tick me off too.....


My apologies bandit - I didn't mean to offend anyone with that statement. I have edited it to better communicate what i meant. I felt the question was "generally" better suited for an engineer for we were looking for a technical explanation as to how bulb length/# of bulbs relate to the to the overall stated output of the unit. I figured the question was more of a ballast design/circuitry question than a wiring question. I assume you have read the entire thread so you can see what I was trying to get at. I in no way meant to imply that electricians weren't as knowledgeable - both fields have their specific skills/specializations.

Please feel free to weigh in on what I attempted to explain for I am neither an engineer or electrician but a "web researcher/diy'er"

[banditpowdercoat]

As far as wiring them, I do belive you will not be able to series the bulbs. The balasts won't drive across the 2 gaps, basically. You parralel the tubes up. As long as the tube wattage does not exceed the ballast rating, you should be fine. So, if the ballast was rated for 4 48" bulbs, you can parralel 8 24" in their place.

[Myka]

I despise Giesemann T5s. UVL/URI all the way! Try out the "new" 454 bulbs...very similar to the ATI Blue Plus....VERY blue. It actually gives the UVL Super Actinic a run for its money. The 454 is my new favourite bulb right behind the Super Actinic.

[Delphinus]

As far as wiring them, I do belive you will not be able to series the bulbs. The balasts won't drive across the 2 gaps, basically. You parralel the tubes up. As long as the tube wattage does not exceed the ballast rating, you should be fine. So, if the ballast was rated for 4 48" bulbs, you can parralel 8 24" in their place.

When I was doing some reading last night I came across an older thread on Canreef where I apparently asked the same questions, it was about a year and a half ago. Apparently I already knew that the WH7 was not meant to drive 24" lamps. :redface:

Which is weird because the only reason I have the WH7 in the first place is that I used it to drive 4 24" VHO lamps over a 20g I had running a few years ago. For the life of me I cannot remember how I wired those up, ie., whether it was in series or parallel or one-lamp-per-lead.

For giggles last night I did try to see if one lead could fire two 24" T5's in series. It did not. I will try rewiring the lamps parallel tonight and see if that works. If not then I'm back to the drawing board anyhow. The ballast has sat for a few years unused now so I suppose yet another possibility is that the ballast itself no longer functions. I'm not sure how I can verify this easily as I have no other fluorescents I can test with other than a few old 24" lamps I had with a prewired fixture. I might need to see if someone has a DIY lighting job over their tank that uses a WH7 and asking them if they'd mind seeing if we could replace the ballast for a little while and seeing the lamps light up or not.

I got so frustrated last night I started looking at 2x80w fixtures that I could just hang under my light rack. The annoying thing about this is there are these "Ready Fit" T5 fixtures by Sunlight Supply that would fit the bill perfectly but the cost jump from 48" to 60" is extreme. It's a small step up from 24" to 36", and a small step up from 36" to 48", but it's a huge leap from 48" to 60" ($150 vs $225 and this is I assume wholesale price as that's what was listed on Sunlight Supply's website). That means to have 4 80w T5's, with a set of 2 flanking the halides front and back, is a MINIMUM $500 investment before the lamps are even purchased. That's a lot of money for "gee, all I wanted was a half hour dusk and dawn and maybe a little coral fluorescing on the side" effect. :( At that point indeed I wonder if a guy is just further ahead just to say "screw it", and start saving up for some LED strips down the road.

Whomever said that T5's were an economical alternative to halides is, IMHO, rather mistaken !!!!