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View Full Version : City of Vernon considers exotic pet ban bylaw incl saltwater fish


mike31154
09-12-2010, 09:30 PM
Not sure if I should have put this into the BC Interiors forum, but I figured it would get more exposure here and could be relevant to other hobbyists down the road. My daughter alerted me to an article in today's paper. Apparently they won't take my stuff away if the bylaw is passed since you're grandfathered as long as you already have an up & running system.

http://www.bclocalnews.com/okanagan_similkameen/vernonmorningstar/news/102667849.html

Just dandy, we recently lost a LFS due to closure so now we're down to one pet shop that carries SW stuff in Vernon. This bylaw would pretty much kill that business too.

2pts
09-12-2010, 09:45 PM
Glad I live 120ft outside Vernon, although Coldstream's council is probably worse.

Wonder why they would stop at Salt and not go after Fresh, I geuss the fresh water fish of the world are not as important to the hippies eh?

mark
09-12-2010, 09:47 PM
looks like your local politicians have a lot of free time, might want to point that out next election

naesco
09-12-2010, 09:56 PM
Glad I live 120ft outside Vernon, although Coldstream's council is probably worse.

Wonder why they would stop at Salt and not go after Fresh, I geuss the fresh water fish of the world are not as important to the hippies eh?

The answer is that something like 90% of fresh water fish is aquacultured.

Something like 1% of saltwater is aquacultured the rest is from the sea.
In many cases aquacultured saltwater fish are available but LFS don't bother to bring them in.

I think the solution to the problem is not what Vernon proposes.

The solution is a ban on
1. import of fish and coral where aquacultured fish and coral are available. (except for seed stock)
2. import of unsuitable species like large fish like shark, poisonous species like blue ring octopus and those species that have little chance of success in hobbyists tanks. (Moorish Idol, many butterflys, cleaner wrasse etc.

Bloodasp
09-12-2010, 09:57 PM
Why stop at exotic pets, ban the whole pet trade all together, dogs and cats have lives too and deserve to be free. Just being sarcastic but it's so funny how it says there that the issue arises everytime the circus rolls into town.

Megalodon
09-12-2010, 10:07 PM
I blame all the irresponsible people ruining things for everyone else.

Animal-lovers see animals being abused, complain (and rightfully so) and lawmakers pass these broad blanket laws affecting everyone.

intarsiabox
09-12-2010, 10:09 PM
Most birds and reptiles would be considered exotic pets as well and almost all of them are bred in captivity. I don't know what they are trying to accomplish when people can just go to Kelowna or Kamloops and get whatever they want, this would only hurt the local pet businesses.

Megalodon
09-12-2010, 10:19 PM
First thing they should do is separate the concept of circus' traveling around with wild animals performing tricks and that of pet keepers or zoos maintaining a proper natural enclosure. We don't haul fish around in tiny cages making them do tricks. Also, if they escape they can't run around killing people. They're also fish, not higher mammals like lions and elephants, and are thus much less intelligent and cognizant of their conditions, and in need of less stimulation.

Two different things here this law is tying together and I don't like it.

NanoHuman
09-12-2010, 10:28 PM
I'd like to place a ban on west coast hipsters and urban enviro's who think that they are the solution to all problems, real and imaginary, and that their feelings actually matter.

Megalodon
09-12-2010, 10:39 PM
I wonder how many "letters from the public" came from actual residents in or around Vernon, compared to those from "west coast hipsters and urban enviro's." They don't say.

NanoHuman
09-12-2010, 10:42 PM
Problem with all things political is that the majority ends up not factoring into decisions, it is the vocal minority who have the time to waste voicing their pointless opinion that cause things like this.

StirCrazy
09-12-2010, 11:13 PM
sounds like all the salt water fish keepers in vernon need to go to the meating and present a well thought out argument to remove the salt water fish from the list. maybe it doesn't include all salt water fish, but only ones that are curently banned. only way to find out is to go to the city hall and ask to see the proposed list of banned animals and then go from there.

Steve

Sebae again
09-12-2010, 11:35 PM
So I guess they should ban any pet food that is not holistic or organic because if you feed anything to your animals that is not, it could be looked at as cruelty to animals. And these people ,I assume do not use fossil fuels for hot water,heating or cooking,don't drive cars,eat meat,use anythig made out of plastic(ie.computers),wear anything containing synthetic fibers etc.,etc.So when they open their mouths next time,I want to see them in grass skirts sitting outside their grass huts in total darkness !!!

Seafan
09-12-2010, 11:42 PM
Having moved from this area just over a year ago now, I'm unfortunately not surprised.
I just cannot understand this rationale. I could more so understand the countries of origin banning as this potentially hurts their country, but what harm comes to vernon for allowing fish?
Just out of curiosity what lfs closed up? I used to shop at them quite frequently.

ElGuappo
09-13-2010, 01:16 AM
Problem with all things political is that the majority ends up not factoring into decisions, it is the vocal minority who have the time to waste voicing their pointless opinion that cause things like this.

+1

BlueWorldAquatic
09-13-2010, 01:56 AM
remember when Alberta banned certain exotics due to that fact they survived in our enviroments. Remember those cute small red eared turtles you can buy everywhere?

I had 6 that lasted 30 years, finally donated them to the zoo, because no one had the permits to keep them.

Ken

mike31154
09-13-2010, 02:45 AM
Having moved from this area just over a year ago now, I'm unfortunately not surprised.
I just cannot understand this rationale. I could more so understand the countries of origin banning as this potentially hurts their country, but what harm comes to vernon for allowing fish?
Just out of curiosity what lfs closed up? I used to shop at them quite frequently.

Complete Pet Mart by Okanagan Glass has gone out of business.

Appears I've opened up quite a discussion here, many very valid points including the one about the fact that freshwater is mostly aquacultured whereas saltwater is not. Nevertheless, I think it really boils down to responsible pet ownership and that can't be legislated. The RCMP and most other police forces are far too busy with more important things than to raid people's homes looking for exotics. I reckon Vernon will need to hire a few more bylaw officers to patrol our homes, ha ha.

Anyhow, I went through the rigamarole to register with some comment website so I could add my two cents worth to the comments on the article I linked to. Here's what I submitted:

"That's quite a list of animals to consider banning. So where do we draw the line in our quest to appease the animal rights advocates. When it comes right down to it, what's the difference between keeping a so called 'exotic' animal and the conventionally accepted pets such as dogs & cats. Provided the animal is properly cared for, to me, there is no difference. Certainly some exotic pets pose additional challenges in proper care, but when you look at the lack of care some of our domestic pets receive, a ban on some 'experts' list of exotics makes no sense. Common sense dictates that not too many folks would consider keeping an alligator on their premises. A ban on irresponsible pet owners maybe."

trilinearmipmap
09-13-2010, 05:17 AM
They have good intentions in banning exotic animals but by including all saltwater fish on the list they are showing their ignorance.

If you compare the amount of saltwater fish captured for the aquarium trade, to the amount of fish caught for food, the saltwater aquarium fish account for a tiny fraction of a percent of the total fish caught. If they are going to ban saltwater aquarium fish shouldn't they ban food fish first?

I agree that logical arguments need to be presented to council.

If I were a Vernon area reefer or pet store owner I would point out to them:

Endangered species are already protected by CITES
Many saltwater fish are captive-bred
People's jobs (local and in countries of origin) depend on the saltwater fish trade
Lots of other arguments I just can't think of them right now

Anyway the more people that post a comment on the article the better.

Captainhemo
09-13-2010, 08:13 AM
This just sounds ridiculous to me. If they are going to take things this far, they may as well just ban pets all together.
Like someone mentioned above, where do you draw the line...
Are they going toban those live crab and lobster jammed in those tanks at the grocery stores? What about live lobster at restraunts (not sure if Vernon has any but). This could go on and on
Unreal.....
+++ on the " polititcians with too much time on their hands"

JonT
09-13-2010, 04:35 PM
If I were to go online, and post pictures of my new black lab in a 2' x 2' room. Will anything be done? What, if I said that was where he was going to stay forever, and that I would only use a shovel to clean up after him (nope, not using cloth's or cleaners), and that I know he will get bigger, and benefit from a larger space, and that I think he is so cute, I might get two more!!!! (sorry for the run on, it was done intentionally)

What would happen? I would be in jail. Animal cruelty.

So, think about all the boards we frequent... Now think of how many times you have seen the same thing... I have a 40 gallon cube (details) then a huge stocking list including tangs, and other fish that will get bigger etc. And all of this will be maintained with inadequate filtration.

Not far off from what is being done to the dog, but with fish.

What happens? Nothing. The community will normally try to encourage the person to reconsider. Some will do it more passionately than others. But no matter what, they will not be charged with animal cruelty. Isn't it though?

I don't think a total ban should be the case. But it is easy to see why it would be included in the blanket ban.

I do however think that not everyone should be able to get whatever animal they wanted. If I go to a big box store, or a small LFS, they will order the fish if I am willing to pay for it. I would really like to think that the stores would make sure that the person could care for the fish. But I don't see it. How many fish stores carry groupers? Sharks? Idols? Nudibranchs?

What would happen if we all had to register our tanks with the city? Permits to get the fish (much like most places do with cats and dogs)


I love my fish, I do what I can to ensure they are taken care of. But there are many people with too much $$ that are helping to ruin our hobby. It is easy to see why they are looking at doing this.

Slick Fork
09-13-2010, 06:32 PM
If I were to go online, and post pictures of my new black lab in a 2' x 2' room. Will anything be done? What, if I said that was where he was going to stay forever, and that I would only use a shovel to clean up after him (nope, not using cloth's or cleaners), and that I know he will get bigger, and benefit from a larger space, and that I think he is so cute, I might get two more!!!! (sorry for the run on, it was done intentionally)

What would happen? I would be in jail. Animal cruelty.

So, think about all the boards we frequent... Now think of how many times you have seen the same thing... I have a 40 gallon cube (details) then a huge stocking list including tangs, and other fish that will get bigger etc. And all of this will be maintained with inadequate filtration.

Not far off from what is being done to the dog, but with fish.

What happens? Nothing. The community will normally try to encourage the person to reconsider. Some will do it more passionately than others. But no matter what, they will not be charged with animal cruelty. Isn't it though?

I don't think a total ban should be the case. But it is easy to see why it would be included in the blanket ban.

I do however think that not everyone should be able to get whatever animal they wanted. If I go to a big box store, or a small LFS, they will order the fish if I am willing to pay for it. I would really like to think that the stores would make sure that the person could care for the fish. But I don't see it. How many fish stores carry groupers? Sharks? Idols? Nudibranchs?

What would happen if we all had to register our tanks with the city? Permits to get the fish (much like most places do with cats and dogs)


I love my fish, I do what I can to ensure they are taken care of. But there are many people with too much $$ that are helping to ruin our hobby. It is easy to see why they are looking at doing this.

Very good point, I think in most cases the gov't is happy to leave well enough alone, unfortunately when a hobby/industry proves time and time again that it can't regulate itself properly then action gets prompted by someone (who probably witnessed a yellow tang in a 20 gallon tank) and usually results in the wrong people writing the law.

Too much damage is done to natural reefs for my liking as a direct result of this hobby, practices like cyanide, catching "unkeepable" fish, etc. are inexcusable.

As for banning fish for consumption... that fishing is usually not done in threatened reef environments (A guess, but probably a realistic one).

And Yes, I get the hypocrisy, I atone for it a little I hope by trying to purchase frags from other reefers where possible, I plan on stocking my tank with captive bred fish and if those aren't available make sure that they are not cyanide caught

hillbillyreefer
09-13-2010, 06:43 PM
Banning things seems to be human nature. Every segment of the population has a certain thing they want to ban. In this case exotic pets. In other cases, meat, school prayer, hydrocarbon fuels, guns, abortion, nudity and on and on. It is the general population that needs to make their voices heard. If the small groups of banners do get their agenda passed it is almost impossible for you to take back your freedoms. A good example is the endless gun control debate, the anti's took away freedoms and it's been a 15 year fight to get those freedoms back. Never, ever give up your freedoms. Do everything in your power to fight City hall and the banners. In my experience a small group of well prepared presenters at a city council meeting can and will make a huge difference. The people on the ban side generally work off of emotions and not facts and rational. Fight back!!

mseepman
09-13-2010, 10:36 PM
If you live in Vernon, I think it would be prudent to take a few moments and write "Buffy" the coucilor and let her know your "voting" opinion. I did.

Megalodon
09-14-2010, 09:49 PM
This is exactly what I posted. I think this is a bot.

I blame all the irresponsible people ruining things for everyone else.

Animal-lovers see animals being abused, complain (and rightfully so) and lawmakers pass these broad blanket laws affecting everyone.

Lego
09-15-2010, 04:11 AM
I completely agree that everyone in the Vernon area write to the MLA. I hope everyone does... this city isn't far from mine. I can understand bears, tigers, lions bla bla bla but come on... saltwater fish..???

Too look on the other side of the coin here... is it just the owner of a saltwater aquarium that is irresponsible? Sure it is part of it... But it is also that person that sold them something they shouldn't have... Maybe the store owners should be held a little accountable here too... instead of looking at the opportunity to sell off a Moorish idol to person that is running 20gal nano or someone that just started in this hobby they should actually deny the sale. Questions should be asked before any fish or coral is bought. When I bought my first Rottweiler I had to write an exam on the breed!! I couldn't just pick the dog either... the dog had to pick me; were talking about a 160lb dog that can easily hurt an adult if wanted. I then had to get training lessons off him (breeder) or another qualified trainer or the dog will be taken back. That is a professional seller IMO. You can't say he didn't need the money these dogs were 1200 at the cheap end. He wanted them to have a responsible owner. Maybe all pet stores should follow the same example.

Flame away…

fsjman
09-16-2010, 02:41 AM
I heard the Mayor doesnt use toilet paper and it will be ban by 2012 :lol: What a load of crap

mseepman
09-16-2010, 03:48 PM
So I wrote the council about my thoughts the whole thing and the replies I got back from the mayor and each councillor tell me that they voted on not moving forward with the bylaw as it seemed too broad and too difficult to enforce.

trilinearmipmap
09-16-2010, 04:52 PM
So I wrote the council about my thoughts the whole thing and the replies I got back from the mayor and each councillor tell me that they voted on not moving forward with the bylaw as it seemed too broad and too difficult to enforce.

Superb.