Anyone ever seen anything like this before (sps death)?

[christyf5]

Seriatopora caliendrum on its way out. I've never seen anything like this before. I didn't take any photos of it yesterday but part of it was bleach white so I assume after the polyps swell up like that, the tissue just sloughs off to pollute the tank.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b365/christyf5/Sept%2010%202010/IMG_9284.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b365/christyf5/Sept%2010%202010/IMG_9282.jpg

Nearby corals were unhappy as well:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b365/christyf5/Sept%2010%202010/IMG_9285.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b365/christyf5/Sept%2010%202010/IMG_9287.jpg

As well, the polyps on my pink pocillipora damicornis and pink irridescent birdsnest are pulled in and they look pretty unhappy. I'm running new carbon and hopefully this doesn't progress any further.

[MitchM]

It looks to me like you have some serious chemical warfare going on in there.

Mitch

[christyf5]

Well yeah, but I'd like to know what the heck triggered it. These corals have all lived together for a couple years now (first in the 90 and now in the 180).

[MitchM]

Well, if they've all been living together for a while now, they've all been growing, right?
Maybe your schedule of water changes and carbon renewal needs to be upped a bit to keep up?

Mitch

[christyf5]

Well, if they've all been living together for a while now, they've all been growing, right?
Maybe your schedule of water changes and carbon renewal needs to be upped a bit to keep up?

Mitch

Perhaps, currently I do a 20% weekly waterchanges and well, yeah the carbon could be changed more often I think I do it every 3-4 weeks right now.

[Borderjumper]

What kind of carbon? There were some posts a while back about a certain carbon having iron chunks in it

[christyf5]

I'm using Kent carbon. I've done the magnet test and it seems ok (ie. not much stuck to the magnet, maybe a couple little pellets).

[MitchM]

That sounds like enough.
Maybe a larger quantity of carbon?
Maybe increase circulation around the SPS to help them process the toxins through?
Mind you, their tissues are probably fairly delicate being inflated like that.
Tough balance.

Mitch

[MitchM]

Here's a term for you:


Extracoelenteric Digestion:

Corals expel digestive filaments which contain cnidocytes (digestive fluids).

Cnidocytes can be expelled from the digestive track en masse (puking) onto a nearby coral, digesting it.

Sounds lovely....

Mitch

[Delphinus]

AI yi yi. :(

My biggest worry about this sort of thing, beyond the chemical warfare is if it could be a pathogen of some kind (baterial, viral, or protozoan). The real worry with that is that it's 1) impossible to verify or test for, 2) essentially impossible to treat for. It's sort of like a greenhouse with bugs and all you can do is hope they die out on their own or that the stock becomes resistent to it.

I hope that this is an isolated incident. Sorry, I realize I've said nothing helpful ... just that I sympathize (and empathize) and wish you good luck!!

[christyf5]

Here's a term for you:


Extracoelenteric Digestion:

Corals expel digestive filaments which contain cnidocytes (digestive fluids).

Cnidocytes can be expelled from the digestive track en masse (puking) onto a nearby coral, digesting it.

Sounds lovely....

Mitch

Eew!!

I did notice yesterday at about 11 a completely different coral that was doing that white stringy thing quite excessively (it usually has some issues when I feed the fish mysis and I just figured it was excited about the extra nutrients in the water column) however at 11am I hadn't fed the fish. Everything else looked normal though. But on my return at 7, that green birdsnest was 1/4 white, 1/4 brown slurry and 1/2 normal. This morning at about 7am there were just the couple intact branches you see in the photo. The original coral that was doing the white stringy thing at 11 yesterday is completely fine and sans strings.

[christyf5]

AI yi yi. :(

My biggest worry about this sort of thing, beyond the chemical warfare is if it could be a pathogen of some kind (baterial, viral, or protozoan). The real worry with that is that it's 1) impossible to verify or test for, 2) essentially impossible to treat for. It's sort of like a greenhouse with bugs and all you can do is hope they die out on their own or that the stock becomes resistent to it.

I hope that this is an isolated incident. Sorry, I realize I've said nothing helpful ... just that I sympathize (and empathize) and wish you good luck!!

that was pretty much my worry as well, is it transmissible and what is it going to do to the rest of the tank? Guess there is nothing I can do but run more carbon and do a waterchange and hope for the best :neutral:

[Lance]

Holy Crap Christy you've had a run of bad luck lately!
IMO 20% weekly water changes and carbon changes every month are plenty adequate. Kent carbon is one of the better carbons as well. I don't think this is the problem. Something must have changed in the tank to trigger the chemical warfare. Have you moved any corals lately or even fragged some. Maybe that set off WWIII?

[MitchM]

Great pictures of it BTW...

Maybe put it in the Corals Reference Library here.

Mitch

[daniella3d]

It could be. It remind me of the brown jelly disease.

I had a duncan that was wounded when fragged and was going that way. I removed it and put 3% peroxide directly on the affected area as it was only on the bony structure and not yet on the polyp and it recovered 100%. I would not do that on sps though, that would be the end of them.

Best way would be to check a sample with a 200x or 400x microscope. protozoare are easy to see and when I had this I could actualy see the protozoares eating the zooxanthellea of my coral! There was thousands of them.

AI yi yi. :(

My biggest worry about this sort of thing, beyond the chemical warfare is if it could be a pathogen of some kind (baterial, viral, or protozoan). The real worry with that is that it's 1) impossible to verify or test for, 2) essentially impossible to treat for. It's sort of like a greenhouse with bugs and all you can do is hope they die out on their own or that the stock becomes resistent to it.

I hope that this is an isolated incident. Sorry, I realize I've said nothing helpful ... just that I sympathize (and empathize) and wish you good luck!!

[untamed]

That coral looks beyond saving. Take it out and frag off any remaining healthy bit ASAP. As it goes, I think it is causing the reaction you are seeing elsewhere. You've got one coral there sending out chemical signals of stress and death. Of course it is upsetting to the others!

[christyf5]

Holy Crap Christy you've had a run of bad luck lately!
IMO 20% weekly water changes and carbon changes every month are plenty adequate. Kent carbon is one of the better carbons as well. I don't think this is the problem. Something must have changed in the tank to trigger the chemical warfare. Have you moved any corals lately or even fragged some. Maybe that set off WWIII?

Yeah I know, its been a bad run, not the worst though. Actually this has been a "good" year for me :razz:

No fragging lately, I was saving that for today to get ready for the frag swap. There will be no fragging now though :(

[christyf5]

That coral looks beyond saving. Take it out and frag off any remaining healthy bit ASAP. As it goes, I think it is causing the reaction you are seeing elsewhere. You've got one coral there sending out chemical signals of stress and death. Of course it is upsetting to the others!

The funny thing is yesterday before I left for work at 11am there was a completely different coral doing that white stringy thing and the green birdsnest looked perfectly fine. Then I come home at 7pm, the "different coral" looks fine and the birdsnest is half gone. I fragged a couple pieces off the unaffected side (as well as clipped off all the "gunky" parts) and put them in different spots in the tank (ie, the two frag racks I have on either side of the tank). Those frags that were near the birdsnest went the same way but the one frag on the opposite side of the tank is perfectly fine, like nothing ever happened. Weird!!

I did turf the affected coral this morning, there was no saving any bit of it as it was almost completely gonzo and I could see if was affecting the other two photos and would pollute the tank even further if that amount of tissue sloughed off.

[PoonTang]

Geez those poor things look awful. Let me know if you need anything.

[lngrhaul]

boy, this is the frustrating part of this hobby. You do all the right things like water changes and then something hits out of left field that you can't identify, can't treat and can't save the affected corals.

no advice to offer, but plenty of sympathy and well wishes.

[christyf5]

Well sadly at this point, I'm really jazzed about the real estate its opened up with that coral being gone. Hows that for pathos? Either that or I've just become jaded as this happens to me repeatedly :rolleyes:

Anyway, everything in the tank is back to normal. Currently I'm cleaning all the powerheads and wavebox and have siphoned the generous amounts of cyano that were produced overnight it seems (I had cyano before but man its just going crazy now).

[daniella3d]

You could identify it probably if you took a sample and simply look at it with a microscope. It's much easier than most people think and it's very interesting to see. You would not beleive all the wierdo that I have seen with mine. Personaly I think a microscope is one of the most usefull tool in this hobby but unfortunatly practicaly nobody use them.

Identifiying the culprit is often half way solving the problem. I used to have discus and most people in that hobby and in the forums I was attending had a microscope because discus are plagued with so many parasites and diseases that it was nearly a requirement. Do a scrape and see if there are flukes etc... Funny that in saltware it's like nobody use a microscope.

boy, this is the frustrating part of this hobby. You do all the right things like water changes and then something hits out of left field that you can't identify, can't treat and can't save the affected corals.

no advice to offer, but plenty of sympathy and well wishes.

[bvlester]

I use a microscope this could have been a spawn and the water became too polluted and the coral that started it all was to week from it's spawn it has happened before. I was on a US forum last year and read some thing about coral spawn. I also seen a documentary about corals many years ago that showed corals spawning and it looked just like the photo's. They did say it is pretty rear for it to happen in hobbyist tanks but it could if conditions are right at the right time. Remember these for for the most part wild corals even the cultured ones are wild we just harvest the parts we want. The only way to get true corals that were not wild is to have them spawn in a tank and the spawn grows.

Bill

[PoonTang]

I use a microscope this could have been a spawn and the water became too polluted and the coral that started it all was to week from it's spawn it has happened before. I was on a US forum last year and read some thing about coral spawn. I also seen a documentary about corals many years ago that showed corals spawning and it looked just like the photo's. They did say it is pretty rear for it to happen in hobbyist tanks but it could if conditions are right at the right time. Remember these for for the most part wild corals even the cultured ones are wild we just harvest the parts we want. The only way to get true corals that were not wild is to have them spawn in a tank and the spawn grows.

Bill
And we did see the evidence of other corals that have successfully spawned on the tank.

[MitchM]

I don't think it was a spawn because corals typically spawn during the night.
It sounds like the original incident started at 11 a.m.

I also don't think that you would have such select damage on only a few corals.

Mitch

[bvlester]

I have no idea as I was not there I was just putting the idea out there for people to think about. The start is unknown I think, the coral that was observed at 11:00am was a completely different coral. It could have started at any time and was noticed at a later time we do not sit there and watch our tank 24/7.The coral in question was noticed at 7:00am so it could have started in the middle of the night as far as we know. It does look like spawning coral from the pic's. I do not know for sure as I was not there, but any pic's I have seen of spawning coral look very much like this.

Bill

[Red Coral Aquariums]

This might be related to your situation. I have had a few customers come with similar occurrences regarding SPS and have found a common theme of not using R/O water or TDS is creeping up. Just tasting our Calgary water you can discern the added chemicals our beloved municipality has generously added. Just a thought and sorry to hear of your SPS problems.
Kevin

[christyf5]

This might be related to your situation. I have had a few customers come with similar occurrences regarding SPS and have found a common theme of not using R/O water or TDS is creeping up. Just tasting our Calgary water you can discern the added chemicals our beloved municipality has generously added. Just a thought and sorry to hear of your SPS problems.
Kevin

Thanks Kevin!! You know, it could be exactly that as I've been having some RO issues lately. Water comes out of the RO unit at 2 but in the garbage can it was 40, not sure if those numbers are really *that* bad but bad enough for me. I changed out all the filters (except for the DI and RO membrane) and it still comes out at 2 (not that I thought anything would be different but I couldn't remember when I had changed them last, they were pretty gunky). At one point it was 60 in the can so I turfed that water and cleaned out the can thoroughly. It now reads at 2 (so far, this will be the first waterchange post cleaning and its still filling. I've been filling a clean salt pail so that I can measure the TDS in small batches to make sure there isn't anything going on with the RO membrane. I'm still thinking the garbage can might be having issues but its one of those brute cans that are like $50 so I might just try using a garbage bag insert or something to keep whatever is in the brute from going into the water.

I'll have to be more diligent from now on, thats for sure! Thanks for the info! :biggrin: