Anenomes dying

[three dawgs]

Okay now I'm really CHOKED. Came home after work and two more anenomies are dying. Is this the flu season for them? All levels in tank are good. Could my last purchased anenomie that dyed a week later be a cause for all this. Every thing else in tank is doing well. Somebody HELP :cry:

[Aquattro]

Probably just doing what 9 out of 10 anemones do in captivity. What kind were they? Some die sooner than others.

[Samw]

Probably just doing what 9 out of 10 anemones do in captivity. What kind were they? Some die sooner than others.

I bet more than 9 out of 10 yellow tangs die in captivity. More than 9 out of 10 clownfish probably die in captivity.

[Aquattro]

Sam, you know what I mean. And really, all tangs in our tanks die in captivity. Unless you know people that ship them back to home. :razz: Anemones die many many years before they should.

[Quinn]

So Sam you're suggesting that essentially 9 out of 10 yellow tangs on Earth are in captivity? And more for clownfish? I disagree. Or do you mean 9 out of 10 yellow tangs in captivity die in captivity? In that case, I still disagree, I would say 10 out of 10 tangs in captivity also die in captivity. And in response to Brad's comment, I agree, anemones in captivity, when they die, generally also die in captivity. :lol: :razz: Ok I'm done now.

As far as I know, anemones (cnidarians in general, in fact) never die of inherently internal causes. I bet that there are corals out there that have been around since Columbus was cruising around Florida.

Seriously though, three dawgs, I would stop buying anemones for now until you locate the source of the problem (actually I would have done this after the first one died). Have you bought all these animals from the same store? Is the store reputable? Were they healthy when you bought them? There are a million questions that could be asked here.

[Samw]

I do disagree that anemones are harder to keep than the average animal. The number of anemones that don't survive is about the same as other animals. I'm am sure that 9 out of 10 goldfish that are bought die within 2 years and goldfish are easier to keep than tangs.

[Aquattro]

I don't want to mean or anything, but your signature says "just starting tank". I think that is the answer to the question of anemones dying.

[Quinn]

Along with that, why do you have two anemones, especially when you're just starting out? Are they different types? In how big of a tank? Generally you don't want to mix anemones unless they are clones from the same parent animal.

[Aquattro]

I do disagree that anemones are harder to keep than the average animal.

Sam, I don't have the experience you do with anemones, but the hundreds of threads I've read in the last month contradict your view. Most people agree that they are one of, if not the hardest animals to keep. This means over their natural lifespan, let's say 20+years.

[Aquattro]

Here is what I think is a decent link on anemones.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/inverts/cnidaria/anthozoa/anemonef.htm

[Samw]

I do disagree that anemones are harder to keep than the average animal.

Sam, I don't have the experience you do with anemones, but the hundreds of threads I've read in the last month contradict your view. Most people agree that they are one of, if not the hardest animals to keep. This means over their natural lifespan, let's say 20+years.

Hi Brad. I don't get that feeling when I read the forums. Instead of seeing failures, I see a lot of successes. Most of the negative things I read now are stories pointing to outdated statistics which are normal statisfics for most animals kept in the fish-keeping hobby anyways. My tank has got to have the worse water quality of all. If anything is fragile or hard to keep, it would have died in there. That's why I was constantly losing Acros and Monti's. My picture archive of dead things is almost all SPS. :neutral:

[three dawgs]

okay signature is a little old. My tank has been up and running for over 6 months. Maybe its still considered starting out, but my others were doing well. Basically the question ahould have been worded " Can a anenomie that was sick (obviously wasnt well when put in the tank) cause others to die? Its a 90 gall tank and I sis a 40 gal water change after the first died

[Quinn]

The question to you is "how many and what types of anemones are you keeping together". Anemones will use chemicals to attack other anemones. The timing of your anemone's demise would coincide nicely with this type of occurrence.

[Aquattro]

Sam, given that most people post successes and keep quite about failures, I'm not sure we can use that as accurate. Most people I've talked to in the last 2 years that bought an anemone (regardless of species), reported that it died "for some reason". Now most people I see buying them don't have adequate lighting, don't have skimmers, think NO3 less than 50 is good and have only had the tank months. Now maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about, but my belief is the general concensus is that they are very hard to keep. You're an anomaly...you keep lots of hard to keep things just fine :razz:
Maybe we should design a poll to get more info on this. We haven't had apoll lately.

3dawgs, I'm not sure if one dying anemone can affect the others. I'm sure the water quality was affected, so it's possible.

[three dawgs]

Brad could you PLEASE call me at 383-0170

[three dawgs]

Brad could you PLEASE call me at 383-0170

[Quinn]

Of course as you've pointed out Brad, the results of any online poll can only be accepted as being anecdotal. There are a myriad of statistical errors that would arise. As you mentioned there are a number of self-selection biases. Also, I would speculate that any reefer frequenting message boards is more successful than those who do not have access to these boards. And naturally, sample size would be rather small. Data collected on Canreef would not externalize at all, not even to RC or RDO.

[three dawgs]

The anemoie that died was long teneicled purple
The two that arent doing well are a purple tip and a green carpet anenomie

[Quinn]

So you have three anemones, each of a different type, in how big of an aquarium? By "purple long tentacle", do you mean purple M. doreensis or H. magnifica, and instead of "purple tip" do you mean bubble tip?

[Reefmaster]

my experience is that there are very few types of anemones that will survive long term in an aquarium. although i haven't done much reading about this in the past year, prior to that almost all of the aquarist experts consistently suggested entimacea quadricolour (bubble tip) were one of the only ones that would thrive. i'd be very surprised and curious if another school of thought has developed.
my bt has split once and i've also had good experience with a heteractus malu in the past year and a half.
in general my suggestion to people is to avoid getting an anemone all together, however if they must, then insist on getting a bubble tip. don't support the harvest of other types until such time as better survival rates can be demonstrated.

[Samw]

Sam, given that most people post successes and keep quite about failures, I'm not sure we can use that as accurate. .

I would say people in general report negative things more frequently than positive things. You seldomly hear from a happy camper. But you sure hear it when something is broken. People who sell livestock and have the most at stake have said the same things as me but they are often brushed off as having a conflict of interest. To me, they are a good source of info because they deal with livestock every day and they hear from customers more than anyone else. If they do something stupid to jeopardize their livestock, it could cost them a lot of money in dead livestock.

10/10 of my goldfish have died within 2 years. Its easy to believe more than 9/10 tangs and more than 9/10 anemones will die within 2 years. Outside Canreef, I know only a few people with saltwater tanks and from what they tell me, no one has kept anything more than 2 years. People on Canreef generally have a higher success than the average reef keeper who aren't online.

[Quinn]

Reefmaster, of course that depends on what you mean by long term... one year or ten years? The technology to keep anemones hasn't even been around for ten years, really. I believe that given a stable environment and a healthy start, an anemone would live forever, even in captivity. I think if there's any reason an anemone dies after it's been in captivity for, say, five years, it's because of an external factor, ie. the owner moved the tank, changed something, had a power-outage, etc.

[three dawgs]

tank is a 90 gal. Pictures in Gallery

[Son Of Skyline]

I did a huge search on all the forums I could find on the subject and my conclusion is that most people seemed to have alot of opinion, but not alot of experience with anemones. Generally speaking, those who had anemones die on them say they're hard to keep, those who keep them successfully say they're not. There are at least several members on this board who keep btas successfully with seemingly little effort so I think our odds are a little better than 1 in 10.


three dawgs...how long have you had your anemones?

[three dawgs]

most of them for over 4 months. The last two were about a two month time in my tank

[Reefmaster]

yes long term could be 1 or 10 years, but if the anem doesn't make it a week then we need to readjust our timeframe. once we can successfully keep them 10 years lets look at 50. i don't know anyone who has kept an anem for even 5 years. not good for an animal that lives 200-300 for some species in nature.

[Quinn]

Well as noted I don't think this hobby has been around long enough to really know. You wouldn't open a business and shut down the first day because you didn't have any customers... I think it's a given that good water quality and good lighting are keys to keeping anemones, and protein skimmers and metal halides are both relatively new inventions versus the 150 or so years people have been keeping saltwater fish.

This is hands down the fastest thread I've ever seen on Canreef.

[Samw]

Oh, a disclaimer...I don't have experience with all types of anemones so I should probably qualify my statement to say that I disagree that all anemones are hard to keep. Maybe the carpets and others really are hard but certainly when I get a big tank, I am going to try them. But I do feel that anemones are often collectively put unfairly into the 99.9% die category when most other livestock die at high rates as well. We as online reefers raise the average but we don't make up the majority of the buyers in my opinion.

[Son Of Skyline]

most of them for over 4 months. The last two were about a two month time in my tank


In that case I'm tempted to think that all that chemical chaos in your tank (typical in the first year) are finally catching up to your anemones. Think about it. Let's say your tank is 7 months old. That means you've had anemones since your tank was just 3 months old. I'd say the the tanks first 6 months are the hardest on any animal. Your anemones were probably stressed to sh!t already, and something just pushed them over the edge.

[LostMind]

havent skimmers been around since the 60's?

[sea gnome]

Hi just thought I'd put my .01 in. I was talking to one of the biology profs at uvic last week who has numerous anenomoes (?sp) in her saltwater tanks. Not tropical but local ones. She says we should be able to keep them alive years like hers, they're easy. I can't say I've had any sucess but them I tried them under the conditions Brad mentioned, poor lighting, no experience etc. She didn't have any tips that would be useful as it sounds like she doesn't do anything but chuck food at them once in awhile. Go figure, maybe if we had Dr. before our names it would help? Rachel

[Aquattro]

Rachel, I'm not sure they're the same. I maintained local species in a tank at Camosun when I worked for the biology department. They had been in there for years and I don't think food was ever thrown in. They just kept going. They also come from the shoreline which has a couple of contaminants here and there. This might make them tougher, and able to live in a captive environment.

[Bob I]

I have had a couple of Anemones, one was a BTA clone. the other an LTA that someone gave me. As you all know I don't skim and I use PC lighting. Neither of these animals gave me a moment's trouble. The reason both died is that I tried to give them both to a friend. Yes, probably he was not really ready for which I will take all the blame. But no, if Anemones are supposed to be difficult to keep I am an anomaly. :eek:

[pocilipora]

You had three different anemones in a 90? :eek: I think that could be the problem??? Wouldnt supprise me if they are killing each other. Just a thought. :biggrin:

[EmilyB]

Anemone, not anenome.

It might help on your search for information.

If you have a multi anemone tank, you better be sure they don't come in contact with each other, at least that.

Likely people bought anemones that were all dumped in a tank together and already beyond hope.

I kept my original (ordered in specifically LTA) for over four years. It is doing well with a fellow aquarist now into it's next few years.

I have a three year old sebae showing me how tough he is waiting to move back under MH.

Don't buy anemones from an LFS unless it is a special order of one specimen, and healthy upon purchase. Best to buy a clone from a reefer.

[Aquattro]

seen this?

http://www.reefaholics.com/AnemoneFAQ.pdf

[three dawgs]

tryed your website Brad, no luck getting into it. Did a water change. the anenomies look like they are already getting better. Will see what tomorrow brings. Did the carbon thing also. Thank you ALL for the hints and all the info

[three dawgs]

site worked. Opened in different format. Got some interesting reading to do. Cheers all

[ron101]

I have kept a pink tipped bta for over 2 yrs now and the previous owner 2 yrs before that. It split on him once and me three times.

The only hiccup that I had was one of the clones did not seem to form properly. It moved under a rock, never came out, and deteriorated. I discarded it after a week or so since I did not want mass tank contamination.

My tank is a 90 gal with 2x175W MH and 2x40W NO Actinics and a remora pro with an oversize pump. NO3 and NH3 have never been detectable. From my experience I would call bta's moderately difficult to keep.

I think the main factor with my success was obtaining a confirmed healthy specimen. Emily's point about not buying anemones from LFS is one of the best made in a long time. Either they do not ship well, or proper collection techniques (or both) are not used but the bulk of deaths that I read about involve a specimen purchased from a LFS within a few months.

I cannot comment on three dawgs' system' adequacies since I don't know the details but IMO the mixing of multiple species and the timeframe of purchase (health specimen from LFS?) are the two factors that I would look at.

[LostMind]

so you guys suggest only purchasing clones from other hobbiests?

I never see them for sale by hobbyists - I need to make more friends :(

[Chad]

so you guys suggest only purchasing clones from other hobbiests?

I never see them for sale by hobbyists -

It doesn't seem to happen all that often that one comes up for sale... :frown:

Chad

[LostMind]

so in other words, keep playing hit n miss with the lfs bought anemones or stop buying them I spose. I havent purchased one yet, but I have wanted to try my hand at keeping one. One of the main things that interested me in the hobby was keeping an anemone (didnt care for clownfish too much, but the gf likes them so).

bah.

[AJ_77]

so in other words, keep playing hit n miss with the lfs bought anemones or stop buying them I spose.
:eek: That's the point - DON'T play hit'n'miss at the LFS - unless on very specific terms, as described by EmilyB (who along with Delphinus is one of two people in Calgary that I can rely on for anemone guidance).
I havent purchased one yet, but I have wanted to try my hand at keeping one. One of the main things that interested me in the hobby was keeping an anemone (didnt care for clownfish too much, but the gf likes them so).
I sympathize, but you gotta wait a year, and let your tank find its legs. Too much can happen, especially with us always adding things, and changing the makeup of our systems.

As to the clone question, it is worth it to wait until another reefer has a split for sale or trade, or a specimen that they have kept successfully for a while. They do come up, just gotta be patient...

:biggrin:

[LostMind]

hehe, I wasnt suggesting that I was gonna run out and buy an anemone just yet. Tank is only 6 months old and everything I have read about them says wait a year - plus, I want to get a chiller in place to keep my temp from swinging so the tank is a bit more stable (79-81 overnight swing in temp right now).

And to give an example... in 6 months, there have only been two local anemone sales. One had a waiting list of ten people before it was even posted :)

On a different note, I talked to JL the other day and they plan to bring in anemones in the near future. Wonder how that will work out...

[Aquattro]

(79-81 overnight swing in temp right now).



That isn't a swing, that's a blip. I wish my tank only blipped that much :neutral:

[LostMind]

a blip? :)

problem is, I keep the heat as stable as possible with a bunch of fans... which causes 5 gallons evap per day... that part sucks. I figure a chiller would help prevent the evap as well...

[Samw]

(79-81 overnight swing in temp right now).



That isn't a swing, that's a blip. I wish my tank only blipped that much :neutral:

Even now using Kalk for top-off water every day, my PH goes from 7.6 to 8.2. Is that a blip?

[LostMind]

I dose kalk for top off every night and my ph barely moves :(

7.7-8.0 :(

[Aquattro]

Sam, I'd say that is a swing. pH numbers and temp numbers are a bit different. My temp runs about 79 to 85 daily, and that uses 5g of evaporation also.
My pH stopped swinging right about the time I stopped measuring it :razz:

[Samw]

Sam, I'd say that is a swing. pH numbers and temp numbers are a bit different.

I know. I couldn't resist the opportunity to highlight the instability of my tank. :smile: Seemed like a big swing to me too. Could you imagine it use to be worse than that before I started dosing Kalk?

[Buccaneer]

Sam, I'd say that is a swing. pH numbers and temp numbers are a bit different. My temp runs about 79 to 85 daily, and that uses 5g of evaporation also.
My pH stopped swinging right about the time I stopped measuring it :razz:

Does your salinity move much with that much evaporation Brad ?

Cheers

[Aquattro]

Does your salinity move much with that much evaporation Brad ?

Cheers

Steve, that's only about 2.5% of my total volume, so no, it wouldn't affect it. However, I use a float valve and it is replaced as it evaporates, so it has no effect at all.

[Buccaneer]

Hey Brad ... I use a float valve too as I lose that much or more

Cheers

[Namscam]

do u have a carbon filter for your tank???because when you have two or more different anemone on a tank they will release toxin to try to kill each other

[Veng68]

Anemone, not anenome.

It might help on your search for information.

If you have a multi anemone tank, you better be sure they don't come in contact with each other, at least that.

Likely people bought anemones that were all dumped in a tank together and already beyond hope.

I kept my original (ordered in specifically LTA) for over four years. It is doing well with a fellow aquarist now into it's next few years.

I have a three year old sebae showing me how tough he is waiting to move back under MH.

Don't buy anemones from an LFS unless it is a special order of one specimen, and healthy upon purchase. Best to buy a clone from a reefer.

Hey Deb,

I remember an interesting e-mail exchange I had with Charles Delbeek and Bruce Carlson (former head of the Waikiki Aquarium) on the Breeder's registry mailing list about putting multiple anemones in one system. They have a tank with multiple anemones.

If you want to check it out go to (sorry no direct link):

http://waquarium.otted.hawaii.edu/vt/index.html

then select gallaries

then select gallary 1 South Pacific Community

then select tank 3 Reef Partners - Anemonefish & Anemones

22 anemones (3 different types) pretty cool stuff but I would not try it because they have a semi open system that flows fresh seawater continuously.

Cheers,
Victor [Veng68]

[EmilyB]

Also 18 of them are all cloned, and clones can live together.

[Veng68]

Hey Deb,

Actually those ones may have been propogated sexually. I remember seeing an article on the web (I forget the link) that showed these same E. quads having a spawn and how the aquarium settled the larve out on some ceramic tiles & small sheets of glass. Very cool stuff indeed.

Cheers,
Victor [veng68]

[Veng68]

woops.......... my mistake........ those 18 were collected in 1980 as single specimens from the Palau area.

Cheers,
Victor [veng68]

[Delphinus]

I remember an interesting e-mail exchange I had with Charles Delbeek and Bruce Carlson (former head of the Waikiki Aquarium) on the Breeder's registry mailing list about putting multiple anemones in one system. They have a tank with multiple anemones.

...

22 anemones (3 different types) pretty cool stuff but I would not try it because they have a semi open system that flows fresh seawater continuously.



350 gallons

saltwater wells

Chuck Delbeek

.... not exactly a fair comparison to most of our tanks, is it? Mr. Delbeek and the Waikiki Aquarium also breed flame angels, and rear the young into adulthood, but just because they can do it, doesn't mean just anyone can ... they have access to some rather enviable resources down there...

[Veng68]

I remember an interesting e-mail exchange I had with Charles Delbeek and Bruce Carlson (former head of the Waikiki Aquarium) on the Breeder's registry mailing list about putting multiple anemones in one system. They have a tank with multiple anemones.

...

22 anemones (3 different types) pretty cool stuff but I would not try it because they have a semi open system that flows fresh seawater continuously.



350 gallons

saltwater wells

Chuck Delbeek

.... not exactly a fair comparison to most of our tanks, is it? Mr. Delbeek and the Waikiki Aquarium also breed flame angels, and rear the young into adulthood, but just because they can do it, doesn't mean just anyone can ... they have access to some rather enviable resources down there...

The amazing thing is they are breeding masked angel.......... and they did it with cultured foods........ a first. They only got 1 fish to survive but that is a start.

Cheers,
Victor [Veng68]

[Quinn]

The Waikiki aquarium is also the only entity to breed cleaner shrimp thus far, as far as I know.

Regardless of all else, when you have NSW flowing in and out of your system all day, you basically have perfect conditions 24/7. All toxins emitted by the anemones would be gone almost immediately, if the anemones were excreting them at all.

[Veng68]

TMC in the UK does a lot of cleaner shrimp breeding.

Cheers,
Victor [Veng68]