How to tell if you're overskimming?

[Slick Fork]

Hi there,

I was wondering at what point do you start overskimming and how do you tell? I'm currently running a vertex in-180 that I had bought for my 150 gallon (total volume) system on a system that's running roughly a third of that at about 55 gallons total volume.

My coral plans are probably going to be more on the lps/acan/zoanthids, etc. With only a couple of sps.

Any thoughts?

[reefwars]

Tagging along for this I have he same skimmer in a 100g was pulling out cash amounts now it's barely , just a bit during the night or with water changes so I'm also curious at what point does overskimming kick in ???

[reefwars]

This ones got your name all over it skimmerking:)

[Vitaminz]

Just my 2 cents worth, because my tank is in an office environment, and because I had overflow of the cup, I just leave the skimmer plugged into the light timmer. So the skimmer only runs for 8 hours of the day, That way I am here in case anything goes wrong. I use to have issues, when it skimmed really good after water changes, or changes to bio load, then do nothing. Just running it 8 hours out of the day, seems to be a nice balance.

[gobytron]

just an FYI...
the start/stop actin is very hard on pumps....

[reefwars]

I'd believe it you can hear it when it starts I can imagine constant turning off and starting up is bad on the pump, mine runs 24hrs a day it's only off for an hour every two days when I feed my corals:)

[Madreefer]

just an FYI...
the start/stop actin is very hard on pumps....

I'll second that. As for what you have, thats not overskimming IMO. Kinda lets you overstock as per your fish requirements.

[reefwars]

So what's the problems with over skimming?, I've heard of it but untill now i've never bothered to ask:)

[gobytron]

I think in general, you are better off to overskim and add trace elements if its a genuine concern for you...

You really cant overskim when it comes to waste removal, only in the removal of the trace elements and there are so may simple dosing options (including regular water changes)that I don't really think overskimming is a viable issue for most reefers.

[MitchM]

I don't see how over-skimming is possible. Skimmers can only pull out so much, after that the skimmate doesn't make it to the collection cup and you just wind up aerating the water in the skimmer tower.

That report in Advanced Aquarist said that skimmers can only remove about 30% of DOC's anyways.

Mitch

[Kronk]

I don't see how over-skimming is possible...

I agree.

[Slick Fork]

I've always been under the impression that overskimming is a real hazard, trace elements are easily replaced but I would be concerned about the microscopic life that gets removed through the skimmer

[DiverDude]

I've always been under the impression that overskimming is a real hazard, trace elements are easily replaced but I would be concerned about the microscopic life that gets removed through the skimmer

I'm no expert but I'd have thought that the microscopic elements would be the FIRST things to be stripped out by skimming and the heavier stuff stayed behind and would only be removed by excessive skimming....

[Zoaelite]

+1 On Slick,
There is still a large amount of research to be done on the relationship between coral feeding and coral photosynthesis (And how it pertains to coral growth/ homeostasis). As skimmers remove both bad and good substances from our water to over skim could result in removing to much of that good stuff.

If your looking for a good read on the composition of skimmate here you go:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature

The chemical/elemental composition of skimmate generated by an H&S 200-1260 skimmer on a 175-gallon reef tank over the course of several days or a week had some surprises. Only a minor amount of the skimmate (solid + liquid) could be attributed to organic carbon (TOC); about 29%, and most of that material was not water soluble, i.e., was not dissolved organic carbon. The majority of the recovered skimmate solid, apart from the commons ions of seawater, was CaCO3, MgCO3, and SiO2 - inorganic compounds! The origin of these species is not known with certainity, but a good case can be made that the SiO2 stems from the shells of diatoms. The CaCO3 might be derived from other planktonic microbes bearing calcium carbonate shells, or might come from calcium reactor effluent. To the extent that the solid skimmate consists of microflora, then some proportion of the insoluble organic material removed by skimming would then simply be the organic components (the "guts") of these microflora. These microflora do concentrate P, N, and C nutrients from the water column, and so their removal via skimming does constitute a means of nutrient export.

[Myka]

I was wondering at what point do you start overskimming and how do you tell? I'm currently running a vertex in-180 ... at about 55 gallons total volume.

Any thoughts?

Imo you can't over-skim using a Vertex IN skimmer, period. You would need to use a very high-end skimmer on a very small tank.

[Slick Fork]

I've never thought of the vertex as that low end. I've always been very happy with mine, especially at a third the price of the "high end" skimmer but that's another discussion...

[whatcaneyedo]

In the series that Ocean Aquatics posted they discuss this question in part 4 http://www.lafishguys.com/88-%20protein%20skimmer-04.htm

[Madreefer]

Imo you can't over-skim using a Vertex IN skimmer, period. You would need to use a very high-end skimmer on a very small tank.

I paid $1300 for my Vertex. It better be high end.

[Myka]

Imo Vertex IN series would be comparable with EuroReef RS series in performance, but not build quality (where EuroReef RS takes the cake in this comparison). If only performance is taken into consideration, I would put both EuroReef RS and Vertex IN as mid-range quality. It is true you will pay a significantly higher price for a high-end skimmer. I have a EuroReef RS-180 on my 90, and although it does a good job I wouldn't go exclaiming its brilliance.

One thing many people don't consider when choosing a skimmer is the volume the manufacturer suggests for the skimmer is usually anything from a bit to a lot optimistic. The reefer's expectations also play a role in what the skimmer is capable of. For example, if someone is replacing their Remora with a Vertex IN he is going to think the Vertex is the cat's meow, but take someone who is replacing their Bubble King with a Vertex IN and he may be disappointed. In the end, it is all relative, but that's beyond the focus of your question (I think?), and in relation to the question I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

On the other hand, in my experience, I have found that most LPS and softies do better with an under-performing skimmer or even skimmer-less setup. :p

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I paid $1300 for my Vertex. It better be high end.

Read my post closer:

Imo you can't over-skim using a Vertex IN skimmer, period.

[whatcaneyedo]

I paid $1300 for my Vertex. It better be high end.

I don't believe Myka is grouping the Vertex IN and the Vertex Alpha Cones together.

[Madreefer]

I don't believe Myka is grouping the Vertex IN and the Vertex Alpha Cones together.

Yeah I know. I was just razzin her. I really don't know anything about the Vertex in

[Slick Fork]

...
One thing many people don't consider when choosing a skimmer is the volume the manufacturer suggests for the skimmer is usually anything from a bit to a lot optimistic. .......

In the end, it is all relative, but that's beyond the focus of your question (I think?), and in relation to the question I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

On the other hand, in my experience, I have found that most LPS and softies do better with an under-performing skimmer or even skimmer-less setup. :p

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+1 On Slick,
There is still a large amount of research to be done on the relationship between coral feeding and coral photosynthesis (And how it pertains to coral growth/ homeostasis). As skimmers remove both bad and good substances from our water to over skim could result in removing to much of that good stuff.

If your looking for a good read on the composition of skimmate here you go:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature



This is turning into a great discussion with some really good links!!

I agree 100% that manufaturers overrate their skimmers, as they do with everything else they can slap a rating on, but you're right... it's beyond the scope that I want this discussion to follow, there's lots of threads out there discussing the ins and outs of every possible skimmer.

You noted as well, and I would take it to be commonly accepted wisdom that LPS, Softies, Clams, etc. will thrive on "dirty" water that is under skimmed, while SPS prefers "cleaner" water. Yet they can all live together in the ocean.

So the question becomes, why does an LPS wither in an environment created by super efficient skimmers? Certainly clean water can't hurt it, so I would suggest after skimming (pardon the pun) the article ZoaElite posted that skimmers are probably NOT efficient at removing the nasty stuff out of water, and in order to pull enough out to create a "nutrient poor" environment without additives they essentially strip the water column of most of the beneficial microlife that LPS and other filter feeders require. I think to an extent that this is why zeovit, prodibio, and any of these other bacteria based system work so well at allowing all types of coral to thrive... the bacteria is what's efficient at removing nutrients and the skimmer is efficient at removing micro-life. Does that make sense or am I up too late without coffee again? :mrgreen:

[fkshiu]

You noted as well, and I would take it to be commonly accepted wisdom that LPS, Softies, Clams, etc. will thrive on "dirty" water that is under skimmed, while SPS prefers "cleaner" water. Yet they can all live together in the ocean.


That's true obviously, but the fact is that LPS/softies tend to come from different biotopes within the ocean than SPS do. SPS generally exist at the reef crest - constant high flow back and forth with the currents. There's no time for any nutrients to hang around so the understanding is SPS would prefer "cleaner" water. In contrast, most LPS/softies come from calmer (some would even say relatively stagnant) waters such as lagoon environments. Such environments are far more nutrient rich, therefore, so the theory goes, such corals like "dirtier" water.

[reefwars]

humm all this is very interesting, i run three tanks but only my 110g has a skimmer(vertex in-180) but its also the lps/softie tank of the house i may start callng it my "dirty girl" :):)


so who would need to worry about overskimming if not someone with a 55g total and a good sized skimmer rated 3x that??? thanks:):)

is overskimming more of a concern for sps than lps/softies ???

[gobytron]

In all my years of reefing and reading about reefing, I cannot recall a single case of overskimming to the detriment of tank....

anyone else?

[Slick Fork]

That's true obviously, but the fact is that LPS/softies tend to come from different biotopes within the ocean than SPS do. SPS generally exist at the reef crest - constant high flow back and forth with the currents. There's no time for any nutrients to hang around so the understanding is SPS would prefer "cleaner" water. In contrast, most LPS/softies come from calmer (some would even say relatively stagnant) waters such as lagoon environments. Such environments are far more nutrient rich, therefore, so the theory goes, such corals like "dirtier" water.

Ok, I understand that part but... Do LPS eat the nutrients therefore thriving in nutrient rich lagoons, etc. OR do they eat the microlife that digests the nutrients and have adapted to tolerate the dirty water that the microlife thrives on? The article Zoa posted made the argument that the composition of skimmate was mostly composed of bits of microlife, way more so then actual DOC's.

If that's the case, that would explain the success of bacteria driven additives in mixed reefs where the hobbiest doesn't have a massive skimmer ripping the bacteria out of the water column. Pure SPS tanks with a massive high-end skimmer seem to notice a much smaller difference when going with these systems. The additives cause a bacteria explosion, and even a modest skimmer is quite good at removing the bacteria. At the same time you're providing food for the filter feeders.

I agree that it would be hard to overskim IF you were running a dedicated SPS tank. SPS eat their photosynthetic algae and that's about it. But, if LPS and other filter feeders eat the microlife instead of just obsorbing nutrients directly and skimmers are very efficient at removing that life from the water column... then for a mixed reef it would seem counter-intuitive to claim that it's impossible to overskim.