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ScubaSteve
08-12-2010, 12:33 AM
So for about the past week or so I have been having something weird going on with my snails. First, I was finding my Margarita snails on the sand on their backs. Didn't really surprise me much as I typically find them this way (I am convinced Margarita snails are natures D-students). But then I started finding my trochus snails the same way. I would do as I normally do and hold them near the glass and let them stick on; but whenever I let go they couldn't hold on. Now my cerith are doing the same and so is my strawberry top snail! With the exception of some new trochus I added the other day, everyone is lying on the sand all shut up or unable to hold onto anything! :cry: Even the new cerith I added are doing the same.

I am concerned that this is a sign of something big on its way.

To give a little back info:

-I found my velvet nudi sucked into the filter inlet on the weekend, dead. I got him out before he started polluting the tank and am running lots of carbon just in case. Snail issue I noticed after I got him but before he died.

-I recently moved my tank (probably close to two months ago) and just recently had a small diatom bloom (which I attribute to a new substrate)

-I've refrained from cleaning the glass to try and give the snails something to eat until other algae pick up again.

-Parameters are more or less spot on. Not dosing anything.

Anyone have any idea what the heck is going on here?

naesco
08-12-2010, 04:37 AM
So for about the past week or so I have been having something weird going on with my snails. First, I was finding my Margarita snails on the sand on their backs. Didn't really surprise me much as I typically find them this way (I am convinced Margarita snails are natures D-students). But then I started finding my trochus snails the same way. I would do as I normally do and hold them near the glass and let them stick on; but whenever I let go they couldn't hold on. Now my cerith are doing the same and so is my strawberry top snail! With the exception of some new trochus I added the other day, everyone is lying on the sand all shut up or unable to hold onto anything! :cry: Even the new cerith I added are doing the same.

I am concerned that this is a sign of something big on its way.

To give a little back info:

-I found my velvet nudi sucked into the filter inlet on the weekend, dead. I got him out before he started polluting the tank and am running lots of carbon just in case. Snail issue I noticed after I got him but before he died.

-I recently moved my tank (probably close to two months ago) and just recently had a small diatom bloom (which I attribute to a new substrate)

-I've refrained from cleaning the glass to try and give the snails something to eat until other algae pick up again.

-Parameters are more or less spot on. Not dosing anything.

Anyone have any idea what the heck is going on here?

What is your temperature, salinity and ammonia readings.
What is the size of your tank and how many snails did you have?
Do you have an algae problem?

ScubaSteve
08-12-2010, 05:19 AM
Like I said, params are pretty spot on (Temp: 79F Salinity: 1.025 Ammonia: 0 ppm last lime I checked the other day) and I did a 25% water change yesterday and a 10% change a couple days before. It's a 40G square tank and I had maybe 8 or so snails including my big strawberry top snail when I moved and upgraded from a 20G. A few disappeared after the move and I added 10 new snails the other day. No algae problems though I am having a small diatom bloom due to the new substrate.

naesco
08-12-2010, 01:11 PM
Snails require extremely slow acclimatization from the LFS to a reefers tank. Unless you follow that protocol that is the cause of death.

Snails will die if there is salinity changes which may have happened when you changed tanks.

However it is more likely that they are starving to death. Adding ten snails without a reason for adding them and without feeding them is probably your problem.

gobytron
08-12-2010, 02:02 PM
Snails require extremely slow acclimatization from the LFS to a reefers tank. Unless you follow that protocol that is the cause of death.

Snails will die if there is salinity changes which may have happened when you changed tanks.

However it is more likely that they are starving to death. Adding ten snails without a reason for adding them and without feeding them is probably your problem.

I cant count the number of times I have just "dumped" snails into a system, either fresh from the LFS or from a tank I purcased and broke down or just moved from upstairs tank to downstairs tanks and I honestly can not think of ever losing one...

particularily as described by the OP here.

I also think its pretty unlikely that all snails would be dying from starvation, thouh I could understand a little attrition from this.

Have you used any frag putty at all lately?
sometimes if you use too much or let it break down too much inour water column it can coat everything with a slime that makes it impossible for snails and their like to attach to anything.

ScubaSteve
08-12-2010, 05:19 PM
Trust me, I am anal when it comes to acclimation, even snails. The new ones I did over the course of maybe 4 hours or so on a drip. When I moved the older snails with the tank, they were in in maybe 2 to 3 hours but they were all fine until recently. I don't have an algae problem (aside from the recent diatoms) but I have been ltting the glass get dirty over the past 2 months so that they do have something to eat while waiting for other algae to start up again. On top of all that, I keep small algae "fields" (hair, turf, unknown red calcareous, etc.) for my urchin and crabs to graze on. I keep it contained to one area of my rocks by there is enough there to eat.

That being said I have been worried about starvation and I have some Nori in there for them to nibble on nut they won't go for it.

I don't use frag putty but I do use super glue gel to attach frags to rocks (same kind I have used for years). I recently did a re-scaping and used the gel to secure some pieces in place, though I didn't really use it in abundance. Could this be part of it?

The snails seem weak and unable to hold on long enought to eat. It seems more like a virus, parameter, contaminant or starvation issue to me.

gobytron
08-12-2010, 05:34 PM
haha...lol

Ive been reefing for way too long to be anal about acclimating anymore...lol

pretty much have a 50$ rule where if it's over, it's properly acclimated but if it's under, it's usally a fast drip at the most.

The case I am thinking off where the snails couldnt gaint traction anymore due to glue bein overused was in a 12 gallon aquapod...

the symptoms were very similar to what you reported but he was using the putty and not the gel and his tank was much smaller so a higher concentration of the putty.

naesco
08-12-2010, 05:59 PM
haha...lol

Ive been reefing for way too long to be anal about acclimating anymore...lol

pretty much have a 50$ rule where if it's over, it's properly acclimated but if it's under, it's usally a fast drip at the most.

The case I am thinking off where the snails couldnt gaint traction anymore due to glue bein overused was in a 12 gallon aquapod...

the symptoms were very similar to what you reported but he was using the putty and not the gel and his tank was much smaller so a higher concentration of the putty.

Gobytron
I have a rule too!
Whether it is a 50 cent snail or $50.00 fish I strive to do everything to give the invert, or fish the best chance of survival in my tank. They arrive at the LFS in weakened condition after their long journey here. Therefor, the care we take in putting them in our tanks is important.

Scuba, it is great to hear about the care you take in acclimatization. That rules it out as a problem.
I would take a water sample to the LFS and have them do a ammonia test and also double check the salinity.
Sometime our test kits and salinity meters are off.

gobytron
08-12-2010, 06:33 PM
Gobytron
I have a rule too!
Whether it is a 50 cent snail or $50.00 fish I strive to do everything to give the invert, or fish the best chance of survival in my tank. They arrive at the LFS in weakened condition after their long journey here. Therefor, how we put them in our tanks is important.

Scuba, it is great to hear about the care you take in acclimatization. That rules it out as a problem.
I would take a water sample to the LFS and have them do a ammonia test and also double check the salinity.
Sometime our test kits and salinity meters are off.

I doubt very much you have any better survival rate than i do.

Plus, you could argue that after all the stress of transport and over crowding conditions at LFS' that the best thing for any organism is to get into their new, stable and ideal environment as quickly as possible.

The other side of the coin is that if you are confident in your systems ideal parameters, you shouldn't see much difference from your tank to that of the lfs.
maybe I can say this because my regular lfs are OA and JL and they are exemplary.

and take that hat off of your poor tang.

he looks ridiculous.

Youngster Dan
08-12-2010, 07:29 PM
Hi scuba, here is an interesting read on snails. I don't have an answer for you, though I supose this article may be more helpful than two people bickering back and forth ruining your thread.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/index.php

Good luck. Oh and +1 on acclimatizing for a while, I figure it definitely doesn't hurt (especially with regards to snails) and it is really easy to do.

PoonTang
08-12-2010, 07:46 PM
Any chance the new tank was contaminated with copper or something?

gobytron
08-12-2010, 07:48 PM
Hi scuba, here is an interesting read on snails. I don't have an answer for you, though I supose this article may be more helpful than two people bickering back and forth ruining your thread.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/index.php

Good luck. Oh and +1 on acclimatizing for a while, I figure it definitely doesn't hurt (especially with regards to snails) and it is really easy to do.

technically 3 people now.
lol.

just finished reading that article and it certainly stresses the importance of a 5 to 10 hour drip acclimation but I still reiterate that I haven't lost more than one or two from a fast or no drip at all.

I couldn't find anything in there that would help you come to any kind of conclusion as to what issue has befallen your snails though...

which part were you specifically referencing youngster dan...I must have missed it.?

Mandosh
08-12-2010, 07:56 PM
and take that hat off of your poor tang.

he looks ridiculous.

Hahahaha.

What are your nitrate levels?

ScubaSteve
08-12-2010, 07:58 PM
Let's play nice kids!

Thanks for the article Dan. Definitely an interesting read. According to the article, even a 4 hour acclimation isn't enough! Crazy!

Copper... now that is something I have been thinking about as well. The tank I am using is a used tank. To the best of my knowledge, it was only ever used for saltwater; but then again... you never know what happened in it before I got it. Before I used it I cleaned the $%^ out of it as I was concerned about what might be left behind. How effective cleaning is against copper? Probably not very good. I've been debating this poly-filter stuff (http://www.poly-bio-marine.com/polyfilter.html) that is supposed to be great at removing copper if there is any.

After the move a few of my acro colonies took a big hit and there was some tissue necrosis. One of my frags I think is going to be toast pretty soon but the colonies I think are recovering (jury is still out on the bird's nest... not sure what's happening there). While I was super careful with the move, I had come to grips with the fact that somethings might not survive and I kind of passed the tissue necrosis off as part of this. But I am wondering if there is copper or something similar in my system that is the root of all this wackiness? Hmmmm....

gobytron
08-12-2010, 07:59 PM
and what is your average temperature?

margerita snails are kind of a lfs scam as they are super sensitive to heat...
astraea are somewhat the same though more tolerant.

the rest of your snails would have to have a pretty high temp for it to be the issue though....

it would seem logical that if the issue were copper, you would have had this problem from the get go and not just after a move....

ScubaSteve
08-12-2010, 08:13 PM
Nitrates: 0ppm (just tested)
Temp range: 78 to 80F, but is pretty much constant at 79F

My cerith, top and trochus are the ones having the greatest issues. Margarita's are kind as they always are: stupid and getting stuck upsided down.

All of this started after I moved and went into a larger (40G) tank. When I had all of this in a 20G with a high bio-load and no skimmer, it was EXTREMELY stable and had zero issues. I go to a newer, bigger tank (which in theory is supposed to be more stable) and BAM! all this crap starts happening. It's weird man...

NanoHuman
08-12-2010, 08:48 PM
What is your pH? It could be depressed and the snails are showing more outward signs of displeasure than the other aquatic life.

ScubaSteve
08-12-2010, 09:03 PM
For a while my pH was on the low side (about7.8 to 7.9) but I've been working on bumping it back up. I haven't checked it in the past day or so, but it's probably around 8ish.

MitchM
08-12-2010, 09:26 PM
You mentioned that you made a change from a 20g to a 40g.
You could have triggered a mini-cycle.
It sounds like a lot of animals did not immediately like the change.
How frequently did you track your parameters and how did you go about making the change?

Mitch

ScubaSteve
08-12-2010, 09:41 PM
There was a very small cycle in the first week or so but all params have been spot on since. I was tracking params every day the gradually to every other day, now I'm doing it every few days (except right now while I'm trying to figure out what the heck is going on).

When I made the change I switched to a new substrate; because of this switch I was careful to feed sparingly for about 4 weeks until the denitrifying bacteria could catch up. Other than that the change was as per any other move I have done (which is a lot) and that is: very slow and methodical. Brought close to 15 of the 20 gollons of water over to the new tank during the move. The new tank had been sitting for about 5 days with saltwater and the new substrate at temperature before I did the move. Everything was acclimated very slowly over about 6 hours. I went to bed at about 5am.

The only thing that I have done different than any other move/tank switch is go to a used 40G square tank.

MitchM
08-12-2010, 09:45 PM
Any chance you had some H2S released from the old live rock if it was previously sitting in a sandbed?

ScubaSteve
08-12-2010, 10:04 PM
Possibly, though I wouldn't expect that is the culprit. That would have been something that would have showed itself pretty quick after the move and when I recently move stuff around I didn't move rock around, only the frags and colonies. If there was a continual source, then it's a possibly but it's pushing close to two months since the move with at least 8 sizable water changes.

Youngster Dan
08-12-2010, 10:08 PM
which part were you specifically referencing youngster dan...I must have missed it.?

I was referencing that it was an interesting read ;)

You mention that you had a small diatom outbreak, could it be possible that it may be dinoflagellates instead? I know dino's can be toxic to snails, at any rate just throwing an idea out there.

ScubaSteve
08-12-2010, 10:15 PM
I'm pretty sure it's diatoms. I've had dino's in the past and what I have doesn't look like that (and the snails didn't this response to it either). It's got that golden brown dust look as oppoed to the brown snotty look of the dino's and it doesn't have the associated air bubbles. And it's really only on the sand, so I thinkit's just diatoms using up the silicates in the new subtrate. And my conch is eating it and is the only gastro who is super healthy in the tank at the moment.

MitchM
08-12-2010, 10:37 PM
...That would have been something that would have showed itself pretty quick after the move and when I recently move stuff around I didn't move rock around, only the frags and colonies. If there was a continual source, then it's a possibly but it's pushing close to two months since the move with at least 8 sizable water changes.

Right, but a combination of a really large water change (doubling of the tank size), acro die off and the resulting decaying tissue, 8 sizeable water changes, a nudi dying (even though you think you caught it before it released any toxins), 8 sizeable water changes...may have added up to enough of an unstable environment to negatively affect the invertebrates.

I don't know for sure that that's what happened, but I do think it's a possibility.

Mitch

ScubaSteve
08-12-2010, 10:57 PM
I completely agree with you. There are SO many things here that could be the culprit. Moving stress I think had a big impact though things have been, for the most part, stable (except for an initially low pH). I have other more sensitive creatures in the tank which have always been my 'canaries in a cage' and they're all doing great which is why I am concerned about these other things that are happening, whether they are signs of something I am not seeing or monitoring (if even possible).

I've been doing all the things we've always been told to do (check params, check temp, check salinity, is there something stinging your leather?, is there a worm eating your acro?, Is something dead?, etc) and nothing is coming up. I've even moved my tanks like 4 or 5 times now and I haven't seen this before. I'm just... so confused....

MitchM
08-13-2010, 01:52 AM
Which more sensitive creatures are you referring to?

Mitch

nlreefguy
08-13-2010, 02:05 AM
This has hapened to me in the past, almost always associated with large or sudden shifts in pH and/or alkalinity. Yes, I've been dumb enough to let it happen more than once. I lost a lot of snails once when I started dosing kalk, in probably too large volumes at once and again when I added too much alaklinity to my top off water over a period of a couple of weeks (when I tested the alk it was 17).

ScubaSteve
08-13-2010, 07:17 PM
Mitch: Usually my pulsing xenia, purple xenia and one of my pocci colonies are the first to display signs of displeasure if there is something going on in the tank, no matter how minor. Their behaviour is now pretty predictable (tends to happen after watching the tank for hundreds of days); I can pretty much tell you the pH based on what my xenia is doing.

Today, things aren't looking as bad as they have over the past while. The Strawberry Top is finally sticking back onto the glass though is still looking a bit rough (hadn't come out of his shell in a few days) and I found nassarius eggs on the glass this morning (they have a pretty distinct pattern), though I have yet to see the cerith perk up (if they survived). We'll have to wait and see...

MitchM
08-13-2010, 08:42 PM
I suspect that as your system stabilizes, the problems will settle down.:smile:

Mitch

daniella3d
08-15-2010, 04:15 AM
5 to 10 hours dip for snails? wow..I never acclimate them pass the temperature and then drop them in the aquarium. never lost a single one. Quite the opposite, they are multiplying like crazy.

I would think some chimical in the water, maybe from some coral or some copper. where is the water coming from?

Try putting fresh carbon in and see if that help.

Someone I know had an anemone got cought in a pump and released all sort of chimical warfare in the water and all her snails and fishes died except a clown fish and the shrimps.


technically 3 people now.
lol.

just finished reading that article and it certainly stresses the importance of a 5 to 10 hour drip acclimation but I still reiterate that I haven't lost more than one or two from a fast or no drip at all.

I couldn't find anything in there that would help you come to any kind of conclusion as to what issue has befallen your snails though...

which part were you specifically referencing youngster dan...I must have missed it.?