Ultimatereef.com TOTM keeps a yellow tang in a 30gal...

[whatcaneyedo]

The new TOTM on Ultimate Reef (a UK forum) has a yellow tang and a dragonet in his packed 30gal. Is anyone else bothered by this? Seemingly only one person on their site objects to it... http://www.ultimatereef.com/TOTM/2010_august/

[Sebae again]

On the RC site people are keeping them in their nano tanks.One person has 2 tangs in their 18 gal.

[trilinearmipmap]

I have always sympathized with the Tang police at heart however nowadays I wonder whether all of us aren't guilty of the same thing. I have snorkeled in Hawaii beside a school (? shoal) of 100 to 200 yellow tangs. Within a few seconds they moved over an area twice the size of my house. I agree that keeping Tangs in a nano is a horrible idea. The question is, am I any better having Tangs in my 120? Or anyone else I've seen keeping Tangs in a 4, 6, or even 8 foot tank.

Some fish I have seen while diving seem to stay in a small territory, for example a group of Royal Grammas each staying near its own little spot on the reef. Fish with this sort of swimming habit seem suitable for aquariums. Fish that swim over large areas constantly don't seem fit for an aquarium of any size.

[naesco]

The new TOTM on Ultimate Reef (a UK forum) has a yellow tang and a dragonet in his packed 30gal. Is anyone else bothered by this? Seemingly only one person on their site objects to it... http://www.ultimatereef.com/TOTM/2010_august/

I am bothered by it especially when the reefer is honoured. It tells you a lot about Ultimate Reef the UK forum.

It would never never happen on Canreef even if the corals dazzled like diamonds.

[naesco]

[QUOTE=trilinearmipmap;539235]I have always sympathized with the Tang police at heart however nowadays I wonder whether all of us aren't guilty of the same thing. I have snorkeled in Hawaii beside a school (? shoal) of 100 to 200 yellow tangs. Within a few seconds they moved over an area twice the size of my house. I agree that keeping Tangs in a nano is a horrible idea. The question is, am I any better having Tangs in my 120? Or anyone else I've seen keeping Tangs in a 4, 6, or even 8 foot tank.

Some fish I have seen while diving seem to stay in a small territory, for example a group of Royal Grammas each staying near its own little spot on the reef. Fish with this sort of swimming habit seem suitable for aquariums. Fish that swim over large areas constantly don't seem fit for an aquarium of any size.[/QUOTE

You have a larger tank.
If you observe a tang in a 3 or 4 foot tank swimming and than observe one in a 6 foot + tank swimming it is easy to see the difference. In the small tank the tang kinda swims around and in the longer tank he really motors from one end to the other.
Tangs are swimmers and need the larger room longer tanks provide. (A Kole tang would be an exception though)

[MMAX]

Tangs are swimmers and need the larger room longer tanks provide. (A Kole tang would be an exception though)[/QUOTE]

Exactly the type of tang I want for my 4' 100 gallon.

[StirCrazy]

not bothered in the least.. years ago 30-40ish was the minimum for a yellow tang, but now the self proclaimed tang police have inflated that to a standard swimming pool.

also if you have been snorkiling in Haiwii you will have noticed the larger tangs swim all over the place, the juviniles tend to stick to one area as long as there is food, and in the 50+ times I have been snorkiling in haiwii I have even noticed if there is an abundance of food the adults dont stray far at all. so compair that to our tanks, abundance of food, strong curent to give them exercise.. if the tank is set up right there is no reason an aproperate sized tank can't be in it.. my problem would be a full growen fish that can't turn around in its home or even get off a little blast of speed.

Steve

[naesco]

Tangs are swimmers and need the larger room longer tanks provide. (A Kole tang would be an exception though)

Exactly the type of tang I want for my 4' 100 gallon.[/QUOTE]

Ya, you will love the Kole. Choose an active one with clear eyes, no blotches or tears or spots.
It is a film algae eater so keep one end or a part of your tank glass 'dirty'. You can also buy some of the smooth stones LFS sell for freshwater tanks and pile them up. They get covered in film algae very soon and also they act a a safe home for pods. A pod pile.

Stir Crazy, I know you never agree with my posts but you have to admit a packed 30 gallon tank is far too small for an adult yellow tang. I think most reefers are tang police on this one!

[whatcaneyedo]

You say 'not bothered in the least' and then you contradict yourself with what you write afterwords. The tang is 5 years old and that tank is STUFFED with coral growth so there is very little swimming space. Have a look at the article and you'll see what I mean.

[StirCrazy]

You say 'not bothered in the least' and then you contradict yourself with what you write afterwords. The tang is 5 years old and that tank is STUFFED with coral growth so there is very little swimming space. Have a look at the article and you'll see what I mean.

ah all you said wasa yellow tang in a 30 gal tank. I am not botherd by that. a 30 gal tank with a large tang yes I wouldn't do it myself, but still I won't lose any sleep over some one else doing it. life is to short to worry about what other people are doing all the time :mrgreen:

Steve

[shrimpchips]

While I don't approve of people who keep large tangs in tiny tanks, I also don't usually agree with the self-proclaimed-holier-than-thou tang police folks.

And REALLY folks? Did anyone actually look through the article? That tank is a 36 x 18 x 18, and that Yellow tang has got to be no more than 4" snout to tail. It's definitely not an adult tang in a typical 30g tank. Look at the pictures - it definitely has swimming room.

Also, not to rain on your parades, but you'd think a guy with 22+ years of aquarium experience wouldn't willy nilly stick a tang in a tiny tank. He seems good at keeping fish too - a 16 year old clown and a 4 year old mandarin. Maybe, just maybe, he knows what he's doing?

FWIW, Nano-reef also featured a tank with a yellow tang sometime last year I think.

[whatcaneyedo]

At what age do yellow tangs reach adulthood? This one must be at least 6 years old... I've only had a tang myself for the last 4 years so maybe someone else can answer that.

I did read the whole article and the thread that follows. Later he does admit that he will pass the tang along if it should show signs of decline or when his coral grows in a bit more and restricts too much of its swimming room. The pictures don't show much swimming room to me. But thats just my opinion.

I've known people in this hobby who claim to have more experience than that to do far more ridiculous things. Also, in his article he states that he still considers himself an amateur (like the rest of us).

What kind of message do you think these articles by Ultimate Reef and Nano Reef send to people getting into the hobby? That is where I see the problem. People who are being honored and those who have been doing this for decades should be setting a better example.

[zum14]

:pop2:

[reefwars]

i agree with whatcaneyedo its one thing for someone to keep fish in an undersized tank its another when their honored for it :)

[gobytron]

While I don't approve of people who keep large tangs in tiny tanks, I also don't usually agree with the self-proclaimed-holier-than-thou tang police folks.

And REALLY folks? Did anyone actually look through the article? That tank is a 36 x 18 x 18, and that Yellow tang has got to be no more than 4" snout to tail. It's definitely not an adult tang in a typical 30g tank. Look at the pictures - it definitely has swimming room.

Also, not to rain on your parades, but you'd think a guy with 22+ years of aquarium experience wouldn't willy nilly stick a tang in a tiny tank. He seems good at keeping fish too - a 16 year old clown and a 4 year old mandarin. Maybe, just maybe, he knows what he's doing?

FWIW, Nano-reef also featured a tank with a yellow tang sometime last year I think.

well put.

This tank looks exceedingly healthy and the guy mentions the tang is 5 years old and shares the space with very few other inhabitants.

I think this is probably a well looked after fish and that you can (and should)really do whatever you want to in your own aquarium without worrying about other people getting emotionally involved.

Without knowing the aquarist and being familliar with their aquatic methodgy judging in this way is a slippery slope for any aquarist to be on.

In reality, what we all do is pretty selfish and any way you look at it, we are taking organisms out of their preferred natural environment and putting them into one of our own construction for our own pleasure....

It doesnt matter how incredible your tank is, it's still just a 30 gallon compared to the ocean so to single out any one individual for an action that we are all guilty of but is preceived to be worse for some reason is hypocritical.

[fishoholic]

I am bothered by it especially when the reefer is honoured. It tells you a lot about Ultimate Reef the UK forum.

It would never never happen on Canreef even if the corals dazzled like diamonds.




If you observe a tang in a 3 or 4 foot tank swimming and than observe one in a 6 foot + tank swimming it is easy to see the difference. In the small tank the tang kinda swims around and in the longer tank he really motors from one end to the other.
Tangs are swimmers and need the larger room longer tanks provide. (A Kole tang would be an exception though)

At what age do yellow tangs reach adulthood? This one must be at least 6 years old... I've only had a tang myself for the last 4 years so maybe someone else can answer that.

I did read the whole article and the thread that follows. Later he does admit that he will pass the tang along if it should show signs of decline or when his coral grows in a bit more and restricts too much of its swimming room. The pictures don't show much swimming room to me. But thats just my opinion.

I've known people in this hobby who claim to have more experience than that to do far more ridiculous things. Also, in his article he states that he still considers himself an amateur (like the rest of us).

What kind of message do you think these articles by Ultimate Reef and Nano Reef send to people getting into the hobby? That is where I see the problem. People who are being honored and those who have been doing this for decades should be setting a better example.

Well said naesco and whatcaneyedo I couldn't agree more with both of you.

[christyf5]

While I don't approve of people who keep large tangs in tiny tanks, I also don't usually agree with the self-proclaimed-holier-than-thou tang police folks.

And REALLY folks? Did anyone actually look through the article? That tank is a 36 x 18 x 18, and that Yellow tang has got to be no more than 4" snout to tail. It's definitely not an adult tang in a typical 30g tank. Look at the pictures - it definitely has swimming room.

Also, not to rain on your parades, but you'd think a guy with 22+ years of aquarium experience wouldn't willy nilly stick a tang in a tiny tank. He seems good at keeping fish too - a 16 year old clown and a 4 year old mandarin. Maybe, just maybe, he knows what he's doing?




+1 and FWIW my calculations make that tank out to be 50 gallons not 30. At 5 years old I can't imagine that fish growing much more than it already has. Not to defend the guy but...maybe he does know what he's doing *gasp*:wink:

[StirCrazy]

+1 and FWIW my calculations make that tank out to be 50 gallons not 30. At 5 years old I can't imagine that fish growing much more than it already has. Not to defend the guy but...maybe he does know what he's doing *gasp*:wink:

that can't be Christy, after all he has a tank in a tank smaller than 300 gal.. there is no way he could have a clue.

Steve

[christyf5]

that can't be Christy, after all he has a tank in a tank smaller than 300 gal.. there is no way he could have a clue.

Steve

well you're here and you don't even have a tank, what does that say about you then? :razz:

[RuGlu6]

If we would REALLY CARE about fish we would NEVER keep it in the glass box period. As long as we buy fish it will be offered for sale. And eventually fish will die for one reason or the other.
Nothing what we can provide will compare to the ocean.
JMTCW

[Borderjumper]

well you're here and you don't even have a tank, what does that say about you then? :razz:

ZING!!!!

[naesco]

If we would REALLY CARE about fish we would NEVER keep it in the glass box period. As long as we buy fish it will be offered for sale. And eventually fish will die for one reason or the other.
Nothing what we can provide will compare to the ocean.
JMTCW

But if we choose to get into this hobby we have an obligation to provide the optimum care of the critters we keep.

[gobytron]

But if we choose to get into this hobby we have an obligation to provide the optimum care of the critters we keep.

how do you figure?

Buying an aquarium is all of a sudden supposed to supply people with a moral compass of some sort?

all you're doing is imposing your own ideals of what constitutes optimum care on someone who likely could care less about your ideals....they probably hae their own to worry about.

If you were REALLY that righteous, you would not be in this hobby. period.

sorry, but the double standard stated earler in this thread is just so obvious that its best to accept that we are all responsible in some way shape or form of taking an animal out of their optimum environment and placing it in one built out of our own greed.

give it all the "optimum care" you think it deserves, it doesn't change a thing IMO, it's still a fish out of (ocean) water.

[Murminator]

Ok outside of beating the tang thing to death....what an awesome simple tank

[Slick Fork]

how do you figure?

Buying an aquarium is all of a sudden supposed to supply people with a moral compass of some sort?

all you're doing is imposing your own ideals of what constitutes optimum care on someone who likely could care less about your ideals....they probably hae their own to worry about.

If you were REALLY that righteous, you would not be in this hobby. period.

sorry, but the double standard stated earler in this thread is just so obvious that its best to accept that we are all responsible in some way shape or form of taking an animal out of their optimum environment and placing it in one built out of our own greed.

give it all the "optimum care" you think it deserves, it doesn't change a thing IMO, it's still a fish out of (ocean) water.

Sorry, but I really have to take issue with this post. It is certainly possible to provide reasonable care to most of the animals living in our custody and yes there is absolutely an obligation to do so.

We're not talking about people getting ****ed off because he's being fed month old supermarket Nori instead of frozen food, or stuck in a tank without zeovit or being told he's handsome every day, or whatever unique quirky preference you can read about on any given forum. We're also not talking about someone who picked up a tank and bought the yellow as their first fish. Common accepted knowledge and practices tell us that tangs need LOTS of swimming space and this guy has been keeping fish long enough to know better.

Lets switch it away from fish for a second, if you want to buy a pair of super high energy border collies I'm not going to sit back and criticise what kind of food you buy them, whether they're crated at night or not, etc. BUT, if you leave them locked in a 10x20 room or on a 10 foot chain in the yard, all day every day you can bet that people will get ****ed off and say something about it. This is the same thing.

When you purchase or accept a pet, and I don't care if it's a dog, cat, horse, fish, coral, etc. You accept the obligation to provide reasonable care for it... that means nutrition, air/water quality, exercise, and living space. If you can't handle that obligation you have no business whatsoever owning a frickin animal. It really is that simple.

[MitchM]

As responsible hobbyists it's important that we pass along "best practices" methods as we learn from our collective experience.
How that comes across is sometimes misinterpreted.

:grouphug:

Don't you people work?

Mitch:smile:

[StirCrazy]

well you're here and you don't even have a tank, what does that say about you then? :razz:


its because of the tang police.. I can't aford a tank big enough to keep a 1" yellow tank in for fear I will be chased off the board....:wink:

and for your info, I had 5 tanks... in the garage:redface:

Steve

[StirCrazy]

:grouphug:

Don't you people work?

Mitch:smile:

heck no, Im retired and loving it :mrgreen:

Steve

[Skimmerking]

well I might as well jump in I have a 8 year old KOLE tang and he is may be 5" max not a big one , however i have seen 10" koles in Disney when I was there 3 years ago.

[MitchM]

heck no, Im retired and loving it :mrgreen:

Steve

You're too young. You're going to get bored!

Mitch

[gobytron]

[QUOTE=Slick Fork;539372]

Lets switch it away from fish for a second, if you want to buy a pair of super high energy border collies I'm not going to sit back and criticise what kind of food you buy them, whether they're crated at night or not, etc. BUT, if you leave them locked in a 10x20 room or on a 10 foot chain in the yard, all day every day you can bet that people will get ****ed off and say something about it. This is the same thing.
QUOTE]

it's actually not the same thing...

one is a mammal and carries significantly higher intelligence.

The other is a fish.

Also, I think the fact that this fish obviously looks healthy and is 5 years of age speaks for itself.


With all the problems the ocean and the environment has, this issue is one of the last things anyone who actually gives a $%*t should spend time and energy worrying about....IMO.

Think about what a crappy experience being caught and shipped is for the average fish we enjoy so much, if "best practice" was truly your monicher, you would have to only buy from proven and relaible breeders of tank raised species.

otherwise, this is just hypocritical nonsense....IMO.

[StirCrazy]

You're too young. You're going to get bored!

Mitch

true, I am already starting to look for some work.. not because I am board, but I have run out of renovation money so I need more :mrgreen:

Steve

[trilinearmipmap]

I was thinking once this thread runs its course we could discuss gay marriage, abortion, and the Palestinian issue.

[StirCrazy]

I was thinking once this thread runs its course we could discuss gay marriage, abortion, and the Palestinian issue.

hmmm I guess if they had a picture of a fish tank in the church, office or desert and we included some talk on that also we could.

Steve

[trinac]

I have a 2" sailfin tang in a 90G aquarium!!! OMG I have wanted to get that off my conscience for a long time. JK

[gobytron]

I was thinking once this thread runs its course we could discuss gay marriage, abortion, and the Palestinian issue.

too funny.

[gobytron]

I have a 2" sailfin tang in a 90G aquarium!!! OMG I have wanted to get that off my conscience for a long time. JK

HAHAHAHAHA....
I almost spit my coffee onto my keyboard when I read this.

[MitchM]

I was thinking once this thread runs its course we could discuss gay marriage, abortion, and the Palestinian issue.

Anything to stay away from a tang police/ethics debate!
They never end well.

:lol:

Mitch

[naesco]

Anything to stay away from a tang police/ethics debate!
They never end well.

:lol:

Mitch

Hey, Mitch, this was properly raised by a concerned reefer and there many others expressed their concern.

Your comment was and it was one of the better ones:
"As responsible hobbyists it's important that we pass along "best practices" methods as we learn from our collective experience.
How that comes across is sometimes misinterpreted. "

Many were unnecessary personal but hey I can take the heat.

[MitchM]

I have seen you take LOTS of heat over the years Wayne, and I certainly give you credit for that.:smile:

Sometimes it just looks like some discussions have the potential to go off the rails.

Mitch

[gobytron]

I just reread this whole thread...
couldn't really find anything personal?

lots of view points and some great discussion though...

[Zoaelite]

I find it interesting and a little disturbing that people are actually ganging up on the one advocating proper aquarium husbandry.

one is a mammal and carries significantly higher intelligence.

The other is a fish.

If care levels were indicative of intelligence then I would be treating some people on this board like my old tamagotchi pet :neutral:. Why would you even factor that into how you care for something? Would it be acceptable to place everyone with Downs syndrome in a 5' by 5' room simply because there intelligence is lower than that of a regular person?

You have a larger tank.
If you observe a tang in a 3 or 4 foot tank swimming and than observe one in a 6 foot + tank swimming it is easy to see the difference. In the small tank the tang kinda swims around and in the longer tank he really motors from one end to the other.
Tangs are swimmers and need the larger room longer tanks provide. (A Kole tang would be an exception though)

The reason I'm on board with Naesco is specifically because of this, when I upgraded from my 4' 60g to my 6' 170g and watched my tang in his new home I finally understood why people highly suggest a 6' tank for tangs. It's hard to describe if you have never seen it but those extra few feet really brought out the life in my little guy.

Looking at the other side of the field though there are much more heinous things going on out there, all we can really do as hobbyists is advocate for the absolute best in hopes that people will avoid the absolute worst's.

[MitchM]

... when I upgraded from my 4' 60g to my 6' 170g and watched my tang in his new home I finally understood why people highly suggest a 6' tank for tangs. It's hard to describe if you have never seen it but those extra few feet really brought out the life in my little guy.
...

That's a great observation and it's important to report those kinds of things as people notice them.

When "Finding Nemo" first came out, I remember seeing some aquarium manufacturer's reps appearing on a television talk show with a new 5 or 10 gallon aquarium that they immediately dumped in a "Dory" tang and a "Nemo " clownfish.

That tells newcomers to the hobby that that kind of setup is alright. It's not.
When somebody sets up what they saw on TV, it will ultimately fail due to stress/disease leading to dead fish.

It doesn't matter if it's a bored, barking, anxious dog, a feather pulling parrot or an ich covered tang. Stress will kill the animals that we are trying to keep.
It also can demonstrate a lack of respect for them.


Mitch:wink:

[Slick Fork]

Lets switch it away from fish for a second, if you want to buy a pair of super high energy border collies I'm not going to sit back and criticise what kind of food you buy them, whether they're crated at night or not, etc. BUT, if you leave them locked in a 10x20 room or on a 10 foot chain in the yard, all day every day you can bet that people will get ****ed off and say something about it. This is the same thing.


it's actually not the same thing...

one is a mammal and carries significantly higher intelligence.

The other is a fish.

Also, I think the fact that this fish obviously looks healthy and is 5 years of age speaks for itself.


With all the problems the ocean and the environment has, this issue is one of the last things anyone who actually gives a $%*t should spend time and energy worrying about....IMO.

Think about what a crappy experience being caught and shipped is for the average fish we enjoy so much, if "best practice" was truly your monicher, you would have to only buy from proven and relaible breeders of tank raised species.

otherwise, this is just hypocritical nonsense....IMO.

Yes, if we wanted to be truly humane, tree hugging heroes... none of us would have fish in the first place. We also would be wandering around naked eating berries and grass and stuff. But I love my steak and leather jacket and fish tank so the key is to find that happy medium where we get to keep what we want in a responsible ethical manner.

But to say that taking the fish out of its environment is the worst part and that absolves us of any responsibility to provide a proper environment for it is beyond comprehension to me. The comparison to the dogs is perfectly valid, they are both living animals that become 100% dependent on us for their well being. I can't believe that is even up for debate.

I don't think anybody here is going around knocking on doors and demanding to inspect the living conditions of peoples fish, for better or worse people are generally allowed to screw up the life they are responsible for without being harassed too much, the issue here is this guy was honoured for keeping a fish in sub-standard conditions.

[Madreefer]

That's a really nice tank. I agree with both whatcaneyedo and naesco, there's not enough swimming room. I think that the tanks owner is full of chit. To me that looks like a juvenile tang. My yellow tang is about 4 years old and looks more like a full grown adult than that guys tang.

[reefwars]

loved the border colie comparison because it is the same, if we buy it its our responsibility to make sure it has everything it needs.

someone should start a poll asking if you agree with ultimatereef.com decision in honoring this person ??