which shop in calgary is the best in service??

[aussiefishy]

:confused: just wanna know what you think which shop do you like best for their service, like giving advise, selection, care and tidiness...

[EmilyB]

in comparison to what? :razz: :lol:

[spikehs]

none of them are particulaly good...I'd come here for advice, and get your fish off the net...

[Delphinus]

Welcome to Canreef. :cool:

[AJ_77]

Hey, welcome! :biggrin:

The local shops are all a bit "lacking" in one way or another. For instance, at Gold you might find someone who knows something about corals and will give you a good price. At Wai's you may see nice SPS but nobody will speak to you. At Ocean you may find good prices but not many corals, and fish that may be kept for 2 weeks before selling. At Pisces you'll find a nice big store where (perhaps) many fish and corals perish, and prices seem quite high. But there is a good selection of captive-bred clowns...

I won't mention Big Al's. :evil:

So once you've been around to them all a few times, you get a feel for who is leading you straight (hopefully), but this only goes as far as their own knowledge, which is multiplied tenfold on this and other hobbiest sites and discussion boards. The accumulated knowledge and experience from the members here vastly outpaces the knowledge and experience of a few shopkeepers, but they are the "professionals" and sometimes take offense to this notion.

I've heard they have a reputable shop up in Edmonton, but haven't been to visit.

Cheers,

[Canadian Man]

Hey, welcome! :biggrin:

The local shops are all a bit "lacking" in one way or another. For instance, at Gold you might find someone who knows something about corals and will give you a good price. At Wai's you may see nice SPS but nobody will speak to you. At Ocean you may find good prices but not many corals, and fish that may be kept for 2 weeks before selling. At Pisces you'll find a nice big store where (perhaps) many fish and corals perish, and prices seem quite high. But there is a good selection of captive-bred clowns...

I won't mention Big Al's. :evil:

So once you've been around to them all a few times, you get a feel for who is leading you straight (hopefully), but this only goes as far as their own knowledge, which is multiplied tenfold on this and other hobbiest sites and discussion boards. The accumulated knowledge and experience from the members here vastly outpaces the knowledge and experience of a few shopkeepers, but they are the "professionals" and sometimes take offense to this notion.

I've heard they have a reputable shop up in Edmonton, but haven't been to visit.

Cheers,

I Second Alan's comments!
And Welcome!

[Quinn]

I kinda figured Big Al's was one of the better stores as far as Calgary goes?

[Delphinus]

I don't know about the corals, can't think of the last time I ever bought any at a LFS, but I've never had an issue with any fish I bought at Big Als.

Not that we're talking about a lot of fish here, I guess only 3 of them (hey that's 50% of my fish though! :razz: ). Of course I did my homework first with those 3 and I think that might be part of the equation.

{With any store} You do need to exercise common sense and judgment when you make a purchase .... you need to know what you want and what to look for, and never rely on the good word of a vendor to be unbiased (they might be, but they might not be. Or they may not know better).

There was a red carpet at Big Al's in the summertime for $60. At the time it was the furthest thing from my mind due to other circumstances but man alive. That thing sat there for like 6 or 7 weeks. These things go for like >$200 USD south of the 49th. I should have jumped on it, and I'm kicking myself now that I didn't. Oh well.

[aussiefishy]

so alot of reefers in calgary don't buy livestock in LFS??

i have been into forums down the states and they seems to be the other way around... it seems that they pretty much support the local business, the thing is, if you go elsewhere to buy stuff, like livestock, the selection is very limited to the fact that only what they ship to you is what you get.. i tends to like to go and look at the real thing, use my judgement for sustainability. this give me good results so far because this way i have no "junk" or stuff that i don't really like in my reef tank.

personally, i go to all of them and purchase their livestock before, they all have different problems, because they are all from 4-5 big suppliers. Gold have nice prices, but often i seen coral died off in their system after they stay for more than 1 week. especially LPS. oceans have "sustainable corals, though selection is few but i do get nice stuff sometimes. maybe due to the fact that nice pieces are gone as soon as they arrive..." big al's -they do not know what they are doing, and pieces? in my dictionary they don't even qualify to be selling marine stuff. Wai's have nice corals and mushrooms, lps, but not very friendly, and i have heard stories when the owner give very wrong advise to accompany the deal.

in fish wise,

ocean have fully cured fishes, sometimes pricey.
gold have nice prices,
big al? i don't know what to say, damsels dies in their tank, and fish corpses on the edge of tanks everywhere.
pieces have aquacultured clowns and that is it.
riverfront have sick fish and freshwater fish people selling it, and telling me they do not know a majestic angel is not a blue face.
wai's have nice fish but big price tag.

to tell you the truth, i work in one of these stores and i give my opinion from my head, unbiased.

i guess my thinking is, we still have to support these local fish store, and educate them to relize the vast amount of knowledge in these forums and discussion board. at the end of the day, good selection, knowledgible LFS is benefiting the local reefers.

Cheers :rolleyes:

[Quinn]

I don't think the LFS will ever dissapear, because a great deal of the money that trades hands in this hobby is thanks to spur of the moment "that would look nice in the den" purchasing. However I don't think there is any point in supporting an LFS if the staff aren't knowledgeable and if the livestock is kept in subpar conditions. I don't think I would buy fish from any of the LFS' I've been to in Calgary, although I haven't been to Gold's yet so I'll reserve judgement on them.

[TANGOMAN]

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a reputable, honest, and reliable place to spend our money on this hobby... :cool:
Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to me that when you sell that six year old kid his/her first fish tank, you have the potential for a customer who will support your business for the next...oh, I dunno', how old is Bob?, lets say 92 years. Hell, those are pretty good numbers. I'm startin' to see people in this city who have spent $3000.00 to get into marine. They have al this wizzy CRAP and all this other stuff that they don't know how to use or what to do based on water test results, based on the crappy kits they were told they must have...but I guess if your oxygen test kit is the wrong color ya' go runnin' back and let them sell ya' a $300.00 UV sterilizer, 'cause that is most certainly the problem... :evil:.
I guess in defense of the retailers they are not always aware of the advice a salesperson issues. And we all know there are far to many variables to quickly diagnose a problem. Ya' pay your staff peanuts and all ya' get are monkeys...
I've NEVER seen, or heard, sales staff try and sell a quality book !!!
What was the question again... :confused:

[Quinn]

I think, and the pet industry is not the only guilty party, that many managers use the wrong employee model when hiring new staff. LFS' should be hiring only staff who know something about the animals. What's with hiring kids in high school who are working to buy beer and stereos? Those kids should be out working in restaurants or something. And I don't know what the hiring criteria is, because it sure as hell isn't friendliness or efficiency either.

[Buccaneer]

There will be a awakening of LFS owners when they stop getting the volume of business and a few people subtly drop hints to them of the kinds of dollars that are going to MO because they refuse to service their clients/potential clients ( eg. VHO 36" actinic locally = $49.99 ... J&L = $32.99 and piggybacked on a free shipping order from Mike ) ... either they carry the product and then hold you over a barrel to buy it or they dont even try to get what the local market is looking for ... gone are the days when you HAD to buy locally ... the hobbyist is more educated ( minus the Nemo rage ) and wont take lightly bad advice / poor holding conditions / and a general lack of concern for being a professional store with strong ethics and animal husbandry skills < step off soap box > :mrgreen:

Sure would be nice to have at least one store here that took this hobby seriously AND treated their clients honestly/fairly :rolleyes:

[spikehs]

well, why doesn't one of us open one? that'd be sweet... I wish.

[Delphinus]

No doubt.

[AJ_77]

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a reputable, honest, and reliable place to spend our money on this hobby... :cool:

Seems to be a common enough theme...

:idea:

[Bob I]

I guess my thinking is, we still have to support these local fish stores, and educate them to realize the vast amount of knowledge in these forums and discussion board. at the end of the day, good selection, knowledgable LFS benefits the local reefers.

Cheers :rolleyes:

There is the rub isn't it, as previous posters have said "you pay minimum wage, and you get Monkeys" That is partially true, but if you take the trouble to talk to some of these monkeys, there is a chance you will find one who knows what he is talking about, but in reality these kids are being paid to sell, NOT to offer advice.

Now if you go to Wai's, he will try to sell you whatever he thinks will make the most money for him. He has unabashedly told me that he needs the money to send his kid to College. Is that wrong??, everybody is in busines to make money, and ethics often take a back seat to profit. It is best not to ask for advice, because it is unlikely you will get honest and true advice.

To my way of thinking these Bulletin boards are the best way to gain the necessary knowledge to be a decent reefer. But even on these boards you can run into opinionated crap.

So, what do you do? Ask questions, look at people's tanks that are successful, and last but not least, make an attempt to sift out the crap. :rolleyes:

[Tau2301]

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a reputable, honest, and reliable place to spend our money on this hobby...

There used to be a place called Tails & Scales. Going there was like visiting a friends home. The prices where good and the animals healthy.

But a competitor saw their van with the Tails & Scales sign on it parked in their driveway (it was a home business) and had them cited for illegal advertizing.

[Bob I]

There will be a awakening of LFS owners when they stop getting the volume of business and a few people subtly drop hints to them of the kinds of dollars that are going to MO because they refuse to service their clients/potential clients ( eg. VHO 36" actinic locally = $49.99 ... J&L = $32.99 and piggybacked on a free shipping order from Mike ) ... either they carry the product and then hold you over a barrel to buy it or they dont even try to get what the local market is looking for ... gone are the days when you HAD to buy locally ... the hobbyist is more educated ( minus the Nemo rage ) and wont take lightly bad advice / poor holding conditions / and a general lack of concern for being a professional store with strong ethics and animal husbandry skills < step off soap box > :mrgreen:

Sure would be nice to have at least one store here that took this hobby seriously AND treated their clients honestly/fairly :rolleyes:

Do these hints necessarily have to be subtle :question: I, for instance wanted a Fluval 204 in which to put my Chemipure (which I bought from J&L BTW at half the local price) The price at Pisces for the Fluval was $112.00, at J&L it was $74.95. Even with $14.00 shipping i still saved $23.00. Needless to sy I bought at J&L. In reality I should have told Mike I was going to do that, and perhaps he would have lowered the price.

I guess my point is that we need to tell them what we are doing, and perhaps these retailers will learn. :eek:

[Buccaneer]

But I told them at < insert store here > that I could get the bulbs cheaper online and told the fella helping me to let his boss know so he would have a chance to be compettitive but he came back and said that the price was the price ... I gave them a chance to earn the business but they obviously thought that I was bluffing or just dont give a rats a$$ :rolleyes:

[EmilyB]

The best experiences I had with local LFS was at Petland about five years back. Of course, they have long since fired off the people who took a stand on things, and eliminated their SW section, I believe across Canada.

Those were the days. They sold me a book first. :eek: :cool:

One lone employee from those days remains there, and will always try to order in what I want so I don't have to drive across town for it. He also provides bags as needed....probably since our dogs keep their dog food section in business.

But let's face it. Have you ever tried talking to 'Mike' for example? I had him here to deliver a tank. Talked to him extensively about nori for tangs.

Lettuce there on Sunday. :rolleyes:

Why can't we have a store here with the mentality of J&L ? Are those guys rich or something...... :lol: :razz: :mrgreen:

[reefman90]

AS someone who has worked his way through school, and supported himself at a LFs, I am dissapointed with some of the things I have heard.

One thing I think you all need to do is to not always look at the store, look at the employees you talk to...and see if you can trust them, test them, and if you dont, and they give you bad info, tell them, and help them learn, and learn with them, and maybe next time this happens to them, they will know the answer. There is a @#%load to learn out there and there is always something new to know

Learning is part of the hobby, making friends is a big part of the hobby (look at this site), what is so bad about that guys that is selling fish to feed his family, or what about that kid that works at a store, so he can spend every dollar he makes at the store, and towards the hobby. I have seen them all. Stores are in it to make money and help people learn at the same time, and as far as I have experienced, I have never seen someone intentionally misdirected, and I have been around...worked several places.

Dont look at them as the enemy.

I am not trying to change your opinions, I am only giving you mine, and have respect for many of your opinions, I have talked to people at several other stores, and your website is known about, and read, and thingss, opinions actually are taken into account. (I am quite sure of this, as I have some close friends at certain stores)

I hope I have not killed the mood, or started a huge debate, but I have just wanted to say sometihng for a while.


Thankyou all for your time,

Good luck in your reefkeeping
PS I do not check this E-mail account

[incoma]

I went in to shop with a brand new shiny credit card The shop may have something to with astology sympols or something. I was gonna buy my tank stand canopy Every thing Salt Chemicals everything. Every intention on cleaning out this card. Discussed what I needed We where up to almost 3 grand. Asked him if he could deal at all. Nope he can't budge at all I left. You going to tell me he can't even give me the taxes. Oh well I got nothing there. I agree the store here are not much on service. I got better service in Regina.

[EmilyB]

He said Regina.... :lol:

[Quinn]

Dont look at them as the enemy.


It's not whether or not they are the enemy. It's about whether or not they are doing anything for the hobby. As far as I can tell, the mandate of most of the LFS' around here is to sell as much as possible, as fast as possible, to whoever they can. The fact that none of them have qualms with stocking and selling to newbies animals that should be left to experienced aquarists is fairly good evidence for this (octopuses, sea horses, sharks, sea apples, finicky anemones, fish that belong in temperate water tanks...). If it weren't for this site, I'd have been done with this hobby long ago, after trying to keep an anemone with NO fluorescent lighting in a 20 gal, as was suggested to me by one Calgary LFS which I will leave unnamed.

Why is it that LFS' seem to always stock the gear that most of us Canreefers agree is low-end. Crappy protein skimmers, rarely metal halides... I'm not sure I really know, but perhaps it is because they know they can get a better markup on stuff they can buy cheap from the wholesalers. Better to sell more for less than less for more right? There's more money to be made selling Big Mombasa skimmers or whatnot than Euroreefs.

Regarding employees, I wouldn't feel comfortable telling them what I think they are doing wrong... first off I'm not that aggressive, even though I am fairly outgoing, and secondly I'm rather young, and ageism against youth is rampant in our society. I have a feeling if I told any of them how I feel I'd just hear a bunch of BS back. I would also be willing to hypothesize that most LFS staff would be perfectly happy to give an enquiring customer a BS answer rather than admit they don't know and will check into it... after all, checking into it takes time, and time is money. Sorry, but I've worked in retail, and even in the computer industry, I was essentially told to lie to customers on a daily basis ("this product is perfect for you, there's nothing better or cheaper", even when the same product is half the price down the street). You can't tell me the majority of LFS' aren't the same way. I think it was Canadian Man who went into a local store when he was getting into the hobby, and walked out with a quote on everything he'd "need", for a measly $6,000 as I recall (55 gal tank or something as well, and you can bet it didn't include halides or a CA reactor). That's the way to get people into the hobby. :rolleyes:

It's not that there are no good, honest, intelligent LFS employees out there. But I'd venture to guess that they are the minority.

Sorry, had to get all that off my chest. :neutral:

[Aquattro]

He said Regina.... :lol:

That's bad, right :question:

[Buccaneer]

AS someone who has worked his way through school, and supported himself at a LFs, I am dissapointed with some of the things I have heard.

So this is your first post and this is the thread you choose to come in on ? ... sounds to me like you still work in a LFS :rolleyes: ... you should be disappointed because you have worked < still work ? > side by side with pet store owners/employees that gave out bad advice


One thing I think you all need to do is to not always look at the store, look at the employees you talk to...and see if you can trust them, test them, and if you dont, and they give you bad info, tell them, and help them learn, and learn with them, and maybe next time this happens to them, they will know the answer. There is a @#%load to learn out there and there is always something new to know.

It is the responsibility of the owner of the store to train the employees ... it is not the customers responsibility to train the staff ... besides which pet store employee is going to listen to the customer anyway ? ... their responsibility is to their boss the store owner ... if a employee does not know the answer to a question or is not sure of the compatability/care of fish/inverts then they should excuse themselves and seek advice from someone more senior ... I am sure no one here would fault a employee in a pet store for trying to ensure that they give the best information possible


Learning is part of the hobby, making friends is a big part of the hobby (look at this site), what is so bad about that guys that is selling fish to feed his family, or what about that kid that works at a store, so he can spend every dollar he makes at the store, and towards the hobby. I have seen them all. Stores are in it to make money and help people learn at the same time, and as far as I have experienced, I have never seen someone intentionally misdirected, and I have been around...worked several places. .

No one has said that selling fish for a living is bad ... there ARE companies mentioned in this thread that do a excellent job of catering to the hobbyist at fair prices and they are selling fish for a living right ? ... maybe you should take a closer look at the last part of your statement though ... not intentionally misdirected ? ... so if they unintentionally misdirect a customer then it is OK ? ... and if they do it all the time because the pet store owner only cares about selling stuff and does not care how the employee gets the sales then he unintentionally misdirected the customer out of negligence dont you think ?


Dont look at them as the enemy.

I dont think you get the whole point of this thread ... the LFS is not the enemy ... they are their own worst enemy ... we would happily support a LFS that did not try to gouge their customers ... offered a decent selection and at least tried to train the staff



I am not trying to change your opinions, I am only giving you mine, and have respect for many of your opinions, I have talked to people at several other stores, and your website is known about, and read, and thingss, opinions actually are taken into account. (I am quite sure of this, as I have some close friends at certain stores) .

Well I certainly hope that the stores take a close look at the opinions on this board and others so that they can improve ... why is it then that none of the LFS come on here and interact with a whole board full of potential customers ? ... see what types of fish/inverts/equiptment is in demand ? ... you would think that the first store to come on here and compete with the likes of J&L and cater to the hobby would have a captive audience right ?



I hope I have not killed the mood, or started a huge debate, but I have just wanted to say sometihng for a while.

On the contrary I for one appreciate the fact that you said something because it points out that in some ways you still dont get it and you view this as a attack on LFS ... if anything it is merely a blueprint for a LFS to follow to have huge success by making positive changes that will improve their ability to make a profit by having satisfied < repeat > customers ... I for one look forward to the day when we can get locally the products/price/service/knowledge/livestock that currently are available in other cities



Thankyou all for your time,

Good luck in your reefkeeping
PS I do not check this E-mail account

You are welcome :razz: ... so does that mean that this is a new hotmail account to go with the new Canreef account ? :razz: :eek: ... jus razzing ya ... well maybe not .... na sure I am

[DiscusZ]

I have to add my 2 cents + GST :biggrin:


I have always gone MO for most stuff (hardware) as it was way cheaper even with Shipping (sometimes even bringing in stuff from the US was cheaper) The markup the LFS have is high, they have room to move and still make money, but are unwilling, why because most people will pay what they are asking for a product because they do not know any better.

The reason they do not know is because they have not yet found a "Reef" Board to talk with other reefers. I know when I first got into a SW tank, I used the net to look for what I needed, but did not find that many boards. So I did rely on "Al's" for advice and someone there told me the Seaclone skimmer was excellent and worked well.. Not knowing better I bought it.. It worked fine for a few weeks, then doing searchings for seaclone and WHOA did I found out otherwise.. (this was quite awhile after the fact year or 2) I then reseached my next skimmer (my tank is not drilled so I neeed an )HOB) for 6 months I settled on a Remora Pro (awesome little devil) Anyways I returned to Al's and asked again whats a good HOB skimmer, someone again tried to sell the seacrap err seaclone., I opened with both barrels :biggrin: and mention how could they sell something for $175 that did not skim? then he tried to sell me a Prisim. Anyways I am rambling here. The LFS are generally bad place to go these days, fish never survive for vary long, a lot look skinny and sick.

Here is a true story.. before I was into SW tanks I was keeping discus (they can be very hard to keep) Anyways I bought 6 from Big Al's at about $30 a piece ) within 2 days all but 1 were alive ( I was smart I kept the bodies, frozen in the freezer) ANyways I happened to be talking to a lady who was selling off some of her Discus and I was over at her place looking to buy them. To make a long story short, she asked me what I had in the way of discus and I told her what had happened, she ask me of I got them out of tank such and such in isle such and such I said yes.. and then she says, You did not hear this from me but they had a disease go through that tank than wiped out 20+ discus in 2 days I promptly went from her place to Big Al's and inquired, they denied it, I said I have second hand knowledge that this was the case ( and that I had 5 of 6 die in 2 days) they were not going to give me a full credit. I said you better as this fish were diseased and I was not at fault for their deaths I got my full credit needless to say after stating I would mention this to everyone I talked to :biggrin:

I have to agree with most of the peoples opinions about the LFS stores I do not buy alot of fish, normally just the (cheaper fish) damsels, and clowns as I do not trust buying the more expensive fish from an LFS. I have also not done a live fish order yet either, I have only done a cleanup crew from JL) In the spring I plan on trying the live fish from JL


Anyways I think I babbled on enough.

Jim

[reefman90]

Rasta. Thankyou for speaking your mind.

I have been reading the past boards the last couple days and have come to realize that you have perhaps made it difficult for one to perhaps comment from a store as there have been many personal attacks on stores and it has even got into namecalling. I think that there are many good people at many of the stores...most have at least one, and what I was trying to say is that I feel you cannot complain about the service they have provided withouit irst testing their knowlege...

At every store I have ever worked at, there has been training programs to a greater or lesser extent. At most, employees are encouraged to take books home and learn from reading. Training is expensive for a hobby that has/requires so much knowlege. All the stores have a pretty much "If you dont know ASK" policy with their fish employees.

I think that it has been made hard for a store to come on this board as to some of the things that have been said. Yes We still sell Seahorses, and Sea apples...but people ask for them, and despite warnings, they still want them. If we dont bring 'em in someone down the street will and they will get the customers business. One thing I have learned is that it is very very difficult to be a customers best friend and to still have them be a customer. Do you guys try to get to know anyone at the petstores? The way you guys seem to talk is that they are not worth knowing
When I worked at a shop, I had many people that would want your schedule so they could come in to see you, and only you...as you develop a personal relationship with them.

A very difficult thing to balance (customer friend).

Thankyou

PS Rasta = detective rasta

[Bob I]

Things very quickly turn into LFS bashing don't they :question: :2gunfire:,
And it might be worth remembering that the Canreef members are but a drop in the ocean in the total business of a LFS.

[Buccaneer]

Rasta. Thankyou for speaking your mind.

Yer welcome :smile:



I have been reading the past boards the last couple days and have come to realize that you have perhaps made it difficult for one to perhaps comment from a store as there have been many personal attacks on stores and it has even got into namecalling. I think that there are many good people at many of the stores...most have at least one, and what I was trying to say is that I feel you cannot complain about the service they have provided withouit first testing their knowlege...


At every store I have ever worked at, there has been training programs to a greater or lesser extent. At most, employees are encouraged to take books home and learn from reading. Training is expensive for a hobby that has/requires so much knowlege. All the stores have a pretty much "If you dont know ASK" policy with their fish employees.

The name calling is unfortunate and personally I dont agree with it on a public board ... however having said that the store must be held accountable for bad or misleading information ... most of this is from frustration at not having a LFS that is trustworthy. I have also found that the so-called expert is always too busy doing other things and nowhere to be found when needed.

It would be refreshing to believe that < training > to be true ... however the examples here indicate that although it is encouraged it may not be priority ... have any of the stores you worked for done " product knowledge " contests ? ... a sure fire way to encourage employee participation is reward and recognition ... a placque on the wall would also let the customers know who really knows their stuff ... Saturday afternoon animal husbandry techniques or fish/coral/invert identification would be a great way to bring young and old alike into this hobby as a mentoring program ... and on and on ... point is that stores need to do more to promote the hobby they support



I think that it has been made hard for a store to come on this board as to some of the things that have been said. Yes We still sell Seahorses, and Sea apples...but people ask for them, and despite warnings, they still want them. If we dont bring 'em in someone down the street will and they will get the customers business. One thing I have learned is that it is very very difficult to be a customers best friend and to still have them be a customer. Do you guys try to get to know anyone at the petstores? The way you guys seem to talk is that they are not worth knowing
When I worked at a shop, I had many people that would want your schedule so they could come in to see you, and only you...as you develop a personal relationship with them.

Now a entrepreneur type like yourself might see this as a opportunity to build a relationship with a board like this would be a goldmine dont you think ? ... the fact that ALL the stores in this town have been guilty of some/all that has been said so far does not preclude them from making a effort to change



A very difficult thing to balance (customer friend).
Thankyou

Not that difficult if you think about it ... if a fish store tells you no with a valid explanation as to why a particular animal would not be a good choice ( based on their knowledge of what you have / how much experience etc ) then you have to respect their ethics for the hobby and certainly go back to them in the future



PS Rasta = detective rasta

:mrgreen: :razz:

[reefman90]

Rasta,

Yes, most of the stores attempt at teaching product knowlege runs on a reward system. There are rewards for knowlege, length of time and sales at most stores. The interesting part is...that at almost every store...depending on the store, the reward has been a book, or a particularly large discount on one item or another. Now if that is not encouraging product knowlege I really do not know what is. I have seen stores put on seminars, have weekly meetings where new products are reviewed.


On another note..."so called expert". I dont think I ever called anyone an expert. There are very few people in this hobby that I would EVER call an expert as there is just so much to know. Yes, the most knowlegeble people are usually the ones who are busy. However, have you guys tried to develop a relationship with this so-called "expert". I think that taht is one of the most important things. its a hobby, think of lots of hobbys...you dont take your car to get detailed just anywhere, or you dont buy your RC car from someone who doesn't know what motor to putin it.You need to deveop that relationship. There are however a hell of a lot of people who are self proclaimed experts in this hobby. Both hobbyists and workers and you have to watch out for these people. They can talk the talk but can they walk the walk...

THERE IS JUST SO MUCH TO KNOW!

When I worked at a store, I can remember certain customers, ones tht were more on the friend side of the equation, coming in, after they have proved me wrong in something that I made sure I was not giving them a definant answer (grammar? my high school english teacher is rolling over in her grave). Anywyas,, they would come in to tell me I was wrong. It is good to learn together, and I have learned many things over the years from customers.

Lastly, some customers do not take no for an answer, whther you have a great explanation or not, and they will just buy it from the guy down the street. The reason someone opens a business is to make money. The reason people open a business catering to a hobby is (usually) because they enjoy that sort of thing. So next time you are in your LFS, why dont you ask an employee what they have at home ( they often, like customers love to talk about their own creatures, seriously), find out what they are into, and maybe ask them about an experience they have had with a particular thing( I know I was the first to tell people I could not keep a damn carnation alive).


It is agoldmine...but after reading some of the past posts, I think it is one that is surrounded by a mine-field, and a bunch of barb-wire...

Thanks again

PS it appears as though I myself have lied. . . 3 posts in under 24 hours...

[Quinn]

I think it's good that this thread hasn't become an all-out flame war. It's come close, but looks like everyone is staying pretty calm. Three cheers for Canreef, you know what happens when the big message boards get onto the topic of LFS' (actually one of the greatest things about Canreef, other than that it's local people, is that most of us seem to really think before we answer, RC and RDO are just a lot of hot air most of the time).

Reefman90, can you tell us what LFS you work at? Maybe we can ask for you by name next time we're in. You can show us just what your store is doing to improve the reputation of Calgary LFS'.

There is definently a lot to know in this hobby. And I agree that no one will ever know everything. My problem is, LFS employees don't even seem to know the basics half the time. To prove my point, I'm tempted to start visiting LFS' and asking questions I know the answers to, just to see what the employees say. You can call me mystery shopper.

[Buccaneer]

Rasta,

Yes, most of the stores attempt at teaching product knowlege runs on a reward system. There are rewards for knowlege, length of time and sales at most stores. The interesting part is...that at almost every store...depending on the store, the reward has been a book, or a particularly large discount on one item or another. Now if that is not encouraging product knowlege I really do not know what is. I have seen stores put on seminars, have weekly meetings where new products are reviewed....

I guess you have to look at it from the customers eyes and being that you are that well known apparently you wont see it from our perspective ... we also have no clue as to who won the " book " this week so then have to sift through employees to find one that knows his/her stuff < and then find out if they read the book :razz: > and then phone to book an appointment to discuss what livestock they have that would be compatable in my tank :razz: ... one store was kind enough to offer a notification program whenever new stock came in but when asked if they could order specifically what I wanted they fell short on extending that courtesy and said they get what they get ...

I personally have not seen any info or advertizing regarding seminars < shark feeding frenzy excluded :razz: > and since everyone nowadays has at the minimum of a hotmail account if not more than a few email accounts then notification of seminars etc would be easy



There are however a hell of a lot of people who are self proclaimed experts in this hobby. Both hobbyists and workers and you have to watch out for these people. They can talk the talk but can they walk the walk...

Exactly ... a needle in a haystack ... so lets say you get lucky and find somebody that knows what they are talking about and the store they are working in has dead/dying fish constantly or outrageous prices on hardware ... what then ?



When I worked at a store, I can remember certain customers, ones that were more on the friend side of the equation, coming in, after they have proved me wrong in something that I made sure I was not giving them a definate answer (grammar? my high school english teacher is rolling over in her grave... fixed ). Anyways, they would come in to tell me I was wrong. It is good to learn together, and I have learned many things over the years from customers. ...

Good for you ... but I am afraid the majority of employees dont see it that way and wont go ask if they dont know ... and are still selling hippo tangs to newbies with 20G tanks



Lastly, some customers do not take no for an answer, whther you have a great explanation or not, and they will just buy it from the guy down the street. The reason someone opens a business is to make money. The reason people open a business catering to a hobby is (usually) because they enjoy that sort of thing. So next time you are in your LFS, why dont you ask an employee what they have at home ( they often, like customers love to talk about their own creatures, seriously), find out what they are into, and maybe ask them about an experience they have had with a particular thing( I know I was the first to tell people I could not keep a damn carnation alive)....

How much < % > of what you sell in the store irks your conscience when you tie the bag up and check it through ? ... how much of your livestock do you have control over when you place a order ? ...



It is a goldmine...but after reading some of the past posts, I think it is one that is surrounded by a mine-field, and a bunch of barb-wire

Thanks again..

As I said before ... all we need is ONE store to step up and be a shining example for the rest so that the bar can be raised ... if you really think that our local stores are top notch in all areas of reef keeping then you really ought to get out and take a look around and see what some stores in other cities are doing in this hobby :cool:




PS it appears as though I myself have lied. . . 3 posts in under 24 hours...

Dont worry we wont hold it against ya ... it was prolly not intentionally misdirected :razz: :mrgreen:

Cheers

[reefman90]

Reefman90, can you tell us what LFS you work at? Maybe we can ask for you by name next time we're in. You can show us just what your store is doing to improve the reputation of Calgary LFS'.


Not as of yet, and maybe not at allmaybe I dont work at one anymore...maybe I will be at the next meeting....lol

guess you have to look at it from the customers eyes and being that you are that well known apparently you wont see it from our perspective

Just curious if you could kindly elaborate

How much < % > of what you sell in the store irks your conscience when you tie the bag up and check it through ? ... how much of your livestock do you have control over when you place a order ? ...


Just wanted to say that barely anything that goes through there, when I worked at a LFS Irks my mind...I would have to say that when I worked at a LFS that there are always a few questionable things...and there are always a few surprises...but you have to take into account who you are dealing with. KNow the person you are buying your fish from, do youir own research, through talking to employees, reading, and this board, and overall, what I am trying to get across, is to ask questions, guage responses, and perhaps even develop a criteria for your LFS employee to meet...

As to how much control....almost 100 %. But like I said, sometimes we are made to feel like we have to order moorshi idols, and seahorses, cause despite our warnings...these people want them. (your board helps steer people clear of that though.!

I have seen a few times however, a store trying a new supplier just for variety, and getting a whole shipment in dead...possibly cyanide...and that is something that is unavoidable...seriously...trying to offer the custiomer the lowest price and still stay in business is what we all try to do.


and take a look around and see what some stores in other cities are doing in this hobby

Just wanted to say that I have been to some of the online places...visiting their actual stores over the years...and it can be pretty dissapointing to see...however on a side note, I have never ordered online...from a consumer perspective that is. !

Have a nice evening

Reefman

[Delphinus]

Where are my manners! Welcome to Canreef, BTW. :cool:

I don't think anyone is really comparing the slate of LFS's to the slate of MO outfits. Yeah, a lot of them are probably disappointing to see for real. That's not really the issue. Any criticism I might level against a LFS myself personally is something I am equally apt to level against a MO supplier because I apply the same criteria to both categories. What constitutes a "positive customer experience" versus a "negative" one has nothing to do with whether I drove to the store itself, or whether something arrived on a plane or in the mail. There are MO outfits that has a spit-polish finish and others that seem plain amateurish in comparisons but neither one is immune to a purchase leaving a customer feeling he/she was serviced well, or not well, whatever the case may be.

I sitll stand by my own comments I made earlier about the customer needing to exercise common sense and good judgment. I think, however, that when one don't have the experience level yet to make those good decisions, that it is not an open invitation to surface some kind of predatory instinct and "go for the kill." Yes, business is in business to make money. But I think the onus has to be on the retailer, still, at some level, to ensure customer success is one their goals too. It is not in the vendors best interests to see a customer fail. Ok, so some customers don't listen, and you can't please everybody all the time and yadda yadda yadda. So there are no "100%" answers. But as far as "0% to 99%" goes, there is the implication that things can usually be made better, or made worse, and I think attitude can count for part of how much and in what direction.

[Buccaneer]

Hey Reefman ... here is a story of a guy at a LFS that had a customer from out of space ... maybe you can relate ?

This guy comes in and is telling me that he has mastered the art of hypnotizing reptiles.. I just humor the guy and listen to his non-sense for a bit. I thought it would be pretty comical to watch so I let him show me his skill. I had a tokay gecko (a real biter) that was as mean as they come. If you don't know about geckos they bite and won't let go until they are good and ready.. So this guy is going to hypnotize the gecko. I get the thing out and it is on a table looking at him, he then leans down and gets his face about 2 inches from the gecko and starts talking to it. Well guess what ??? The gecko launched itself forward and attached to his face !! I almsot fell of of the stool laughing, there were about 5 regulars in the store at the time and we were all in tears laughing so hard. So the guy is trying to be all cool and calm and says that this is just part of the process... Well after about 15 minutes of him standing around waiting for the thing to let go, his girlfriend comes over and starts trying to coax the devil gecko of her mans face while telling us that she is better at hypnotizing than her man is... So she gets her face about 2 inches from where the gecko is attached and starts talking to the gecko.... Guess what ???? The gecko lets go and jumps onto her face and bites onto her nose.. At that point I totally lost it and could hardly breathe.. The whole time she is standing there with this gecko attached to her face she is telling us that she is an expert.. Then to top it all off, they bought the stinkin gecko to take it home and train it to prove us wrong.... I can't remember ever laughing that hard since...


:mrgreen:

[saltcreep]

I have a can of gasoline and I'm not afraid to throw it on the fire :lol: ...just kidding.

Many times the LFS is compared to the MO operation. Even stores in one city are compared to stores in another. Neither is a fair comparison. Every store has it's own business structure, complete with different operating costs and supply chains. Yes they do have to make a profit to stay in business. One thing to keep in mind...Vancouver has the lowest prices in the hobby in North America!

I hear all too often from the LFS owner that they get tired of people entering the store and taking a great deal of their time asking questions and then going and buying wherever it is cheapest. It works both ways. Many people want the "expertise" and advise of the LFS but often don't want to pay for it. Yes I do agree...this "expertise" and advise is sadly lacking in many LFS.

[Canadian Man]

I have a can of gasoline and I'm not afraid to throw it on the fire :lol: ...just kidding.

Many times the LFS is compared to the MO operation. Even stores in one city are compared to stores in another. Neither is a fair comparison. Every store has it's own business structure, complete with different operating costs and supply chains. Yes they do have to make a profit to stay in business. One thing to keep in mind...Vancouver has the lowest prices in the hobby in North America!

I hear all too often from the LFS owner that they get tired of people entering the store and taking a great deal of their time asking questions and then going and buying wherever it is cheapest. It works both ways. Many people want the "expertise" and advise of the LFS but often don't want to pay for it. Yes I do agree...this "expertise" and advise is sadly lacking in many LFS.

I see your point and I deal with this on a regular basis in my line of work. BUT ME, MYself...And...I Don't even talk to people in LFS anymore. WHY? Well because I have no need for their expertise because I rarely find any of that. It's seems that most of what they speak of is BS or outdated knowledge. Now I don't refer to all the LFS in Calgary but of the ones I have visited. The closest LFS to me Disgusts me every time I walk in. All the fish I have purchased from this store have survived and are doing great. Heck my last fish was purchased from there but.....I said as few words as possible and got asked as little as possible.

"Can I get that Naso tang please?"

"Sure, which one would you like?"

"The fat healthy one please! :biggrin: "

"Here you go"

Cashier asks
"Phone number please?"

"Thanks, see Ya"


Now I knew what I wanted in this case but I would have very much enjoyed hearing something along the lines of this for a conversation with the fish room guy.

"Can I get the Naso tang please?"

"Sure but first, what size of tank are you putting it in?"

" Well it's going in my 230g tank"

"That's great sir, I wanted to make sure the fish would have sufficient room as you probably already know that Naso tangs get very large and need large tanks!"


If I owned a fish store I can 100% guarantee ANYONE that my staff would volunteer this type of information. All my current staff (not in the fish industry) are trained to ASSUME that the customer doesn't know specifics that he/she needs to know. I have Lost many "spur of the moment" sales because I was HONEST with my customers and Validated their purchase with my shop. These customers almost always return to buy the "product they truly needed" and do it over and over again because they now respect that we are looking out for their wants and needs.

PHEW. This thread drains my energy reading it. :rolleyes:

[saltcreep]

CM...it tires me out too, but don't forget it works both ways. You may not need the expertise but the vast majority of the people out there do (like many LFS owners or employees themselves). Take a look at the thread on RC that mirrors this one. Most people there seem to be offended that an employee asks what environment they are putting their purchase into. Obviously some people are above the "inquisition" (not intended for you).

All consumers wants and needs are very different. It's extremely hard to cater to every customer, no matter what industry. From my point of view, and it has been exressed clearly on this board and others, price is a major factor in a purchase. The attitudes of too many are that they will buy it where it is cheapest, with regard of service or quality.

[Quinn]

You may not need the expertise but the vast majority of the people out there do (like many LFS owners or employees themselves). Take a look at the thread on RC that mirrors this one. Most people there seem to be offended that an employee asks what environment they are putting their purchase into. Obviously some people are above the "inquisition" (not intended for you).


You say that although the collective "we" may not need advise but the majority out there do... I agree... is there an LFS with employees who sit down (or stand up) with a new customer and give them a rundown on the work, costs and requirements involved in this hobby? Also, there is no inquisition when a customer buys livestock. I would love it if there was.

[reefman90]

Hey guys,

Canadian Man, thanks for getting in on the conversation.

I can appreciate that you have not had the best experiences with the fishroom staff of some stores. I myslef have been treatedwithout great consideration while purchasing fish almost everywhere at one time or another. But you have to consider that many of these people have an ample amount of jobs to do. I know that is not an excuse for unkindness, or a lack of politeness, however, think of it this way. How much time do you spend on your tank at home? Think if you had 7 or 8 sytems that are 15 times as big, loaded with fish, and you had to feed, clean, and waterchange all these tanks. AGAIN, this is not an excuse.

However, what time might this have happened? On what day?

I can sorta guess the store, but how busy is it at this time?

Do you think you would have had conversed the same had you gotten to know the LFS employee? Perhaps made an attempt at developing a personal relationship with them? Or if you had developed a personal relationship with them prior to this event?

Could it have gone...

"How about fishing me out a Naso?"

"Sure, nice order eh?"

"Yes, (and or No)"
(Comeon you wouldnt say no...no matter how much you knew them)

"Hows that coral (Goniopora, LOL <<<<----This is a JOKE) doing?"

"Good actually, do you think the Naso will get along with my hippo tang?"

"Ya, shouldn't be a problem, you know, drop by this weekend, cause I am getting a small coral order in and those Blastomussa wellsi are coming in that you wanted"

" Ok, see you on the weekend, < insert name>"

"Take it easy, <Insert name>"

remember this is hypothetical...noit to poke fun CM if I can call you CM. Just a thought.


And ask yourself this...where do you prefer purchasing, Golds or Wais? They have completely opposite sales strategies! All the rest of em just fall somewhere in between.

I have been scrapping through the old threads and have found one thing in common with some of the board members. Saltcreep put it nicely that the most important thing to the cusomer seems to be price. You have this board and the internet, and books, and there are a million channels of information now-a-days. Everything that you want out of a store costs money, and the customer doesnt want to pay for it. I have seen many, many customers walk into a store, and use their so-called "experts" for the info, and then order the product on line b/c it is nice to have the personal selling, but also have the lower price. This is annoying, and would be annoying to anyone in any industry.

I dont know what else to say, my main point in this thread was to say something about developing a personal relationship with your LFS employee...share with each other who you enjoy talking to. People...just go out there and make a friend...make them feel appreciated, and helpful...(provided they have been) and they might be willing to do their damdest to get you what you want for the price you want. One other note is that I am not sure what you guys think of rating these stores on your site, but for people just entering the hobby, it can be both helpful and discouraging. I think that saying such bad things about ALL the stores in a certain area could keep people out of the hobby, and that is not a good thing (less friends to be made, lol)


BTW saltcreep, nice to meet you, what is your background in the industry, what kinda tank you got etc...

I will leave with a quote...."I just wanted to be your friend....(I just screwed it up)" From the Cable Guy (on TV while I am typing thought it was humorous)

[aussiefishy]

:rolleyes: first of all, thankyou for the intense discussion, hence a very warm welcome to me. haha

i am currently wrking in one of the LFS, and in my eyes though the years, i have seen some things. let's summarize them:

1. price is the most important aspect for customers, not quality... although it is sad, it is so in the market, for the few reefers who have their eyes on quality, it is not enough to support a LFS... businesswise, the decrease profit margin=less care for livestock=more crappy product on shelf for dummy shoppers... it is a vicious circle.

2. to tell you the truth, in the north american market, economy of scale is very important, big stores like JL and big al's get dry good/equipment for alot cheaper. a small LFS are very hard to compete. it is not profitable.

3. usually what you see is this, a start out LFS would sell livestock to build up capital, and load up dry goods. the thing is, when price is low, profit shrinks yet sales figure not drop... why? because there are alot of people out there willing to take chances on un-quarantine, sick fishes and inverts... in a business POV, the livestock grade is indifferent for them because shipping charge is constant, i mean, a sick fish shipping is the same as the good fish, so owner will try their best to sell every daXn thing in order to at least break even.

4. as all of you guys know, if you guys can mail order/group order stuff through the internet from big companies, there remain no markets/demand for LFS to order in stuff, and when they do, the cash are sunk. the interest can be otherwise earned (oppotunity cost of stocking)are charged in the price tag, therefore you see a rise in price of dry goods in LFS.

what i wanna say is, by mail order stuff, you destroy demand, and supply WILL shrink. this is a lost to reefers because there will be no bulbs at your tank tonight if yours in burnt in the morning. because LFS see no need for them to stock... one might say, i can buy 2... but is that the right way to go?? can't your money be better well spent?? becasue there are no demand for stocking, now all reefer has to incur oppotunity cost of stocking stuff themselves.

this is the story of dry goods. how about livestock?? do you stock "spare" livestock? think about it guys! the LFS is important, they are the ones to take the risk to order the animals, and sustain any lost it might occur.... i surely will not put whatever stuffs in the mail order into my tank, why keeping stuff you don't like??

and to all of reefers out there, i feel no remorse to name LFS for their bad practice, they should be responsible for their own action. this is why this forum is here.

as you can see, i am a economics junky., it is what i do.

i open this topic to say, sometimes employees have different intentions to storeowner, i think my head is very clear. and i am rewarded with loyal customers who only come to the store when it is my shift.

and lastly, by no means i am targeting anyone. i am just giving my thoughts.

Cheers

[MitchM]

as you can see, i am a economics junky., it is what i do.


Nice to see you here. Welcome. :cool:

I agree. MO kills the LFS, and it's an unfair comparison.

Good, clean discussion. I hope it keeps up!

What do you guys think the future is, then, for the LFS? Is the industry going to be reduced to a few large stores in major centers that supplement their walk-in business with mail orders? Where will that leave current LFS's in medium sized cities? What kind of service are we here in Calgary going to be left with, for example.
Mail order only? :confused: I hope not. It's up to the individual reefer to educate themselves and work with the LFS to keep a happy medium, I think.

Mitch :biggrin:

[Delphinus]

It's up to the individual reefer to educate themselves

Yup.

[Quinn]

I think it is absurd to say that LFS' will eventually dissapear. Chapters/Indigo Online and Amazon are huge, but yet Coles (yes, I know, part of Chapters) and other independent booksellers continue to thrive. Aquarium Illusions in Edmonton is hands down the best LFS in this province (a few small issues aside), and you can't tell me they don't make money, considering that they are continually expanding, adding, modifying, renovating.

The point is, the "bad" LFS' can defend themselves all they want, but in the long run they are hurting themselves, and more importantly, the hobby. Yesterday's National Post had a small column on Finding Nemo and its effect on the global fish trade - obviously, the theme of the movie is "aquariums baaaad" (a la Napster), yet thanks to its success, the popularity of saltwater aquaria is skyrocketing. PETA and other environmentalist groups are already on our case. The LFS' with dead or starving fish and uneducated teenagers working there are not helping anything. Retailers are on the front lines and have the power to dissuade the unprepared customer from jumping into the hobby. I think us hobbyists on Canreef do our part, in a fairly objective fashion. When will the LFS' start doing theirs?

I have a feeling someone is going to break out the whole "LFS' are in business to make money, it's hard to make it as a small businessperson". If LFS' want to take that stance, then they will never escape the stereotypical view of LFS' that seems so prominent in Calgary.

[Bob I]

I have a feeling someone is going to break out the whole "LFS' are in business to make money, it's hard to make it as a small businessperson". If LFS' want to take that stance, then they will never escape the stereotypical view of LFS' that seems so prominent in Calgary.

If you would check the previous posts, you will see that is exactly the point I made. In addition I said that we Canreef members are a very small part of our local LFS's business, and are unlikely to make a very large impact on their sales practices. :cry:

[Buccaneer]

If it's price and only price we are talking about then even the " big " stores here in Calgary refuse to compete ... the VHO bulb example was a large store ... I gave them every opportunity to earn the biz and they turned me down flat ( did not try to meet halfway ... and box of the bulb was really ratty looking which tells me that NOBODY wants to pay those prices either so I told the guy helping me to put the dusty bulb back with the other dusty bulbs )

As far as corals ... we just dont see really nice acros very often and most stores either wont carry them or dont offer frags or charge absolutely outrageous prices for average pieces.

I am sure that everyone on this board would pay more to have quarantined fish locally.

As to bulbs ... are you suggesting that getting MH bulbs from Venki at less than 50 buck per bulb is harming the pet stores who want close to 200 per bulb and online around 125 ? ... I would guess that if they wanted to be compettitive they could have sourced out the bulbs from China just as Venki did and had people from all over MO from them too.

This is all a catch 22 in that if a LFS was to get compettitive then they would get all the biz going to MO and with increased volume be able to offer more selection.

Food for thought

Cheers

[Bob I]

[quote=aussiefishy]
as you can see, i am a economics junky., it is what i do.



Mail order only? :confused: I hope not. It's up to the individual reefer to educate themselves and work with the LFS to keep a happy medium, I think.

Mitch :biggrin:

I think Mitch is correct here. All we( who are only a small part of the Calgary LFS trade( (especially the combination stores)), can do is tell the retailers that there is competition for them by way of the mail order retailers. If they value our business they will make changes. If they don't care, they will go their merry way doing business the way they have always done. :eek:

[Bob I]

[quote="reefman90"]



[quote=reefman90]
When I worked at a store, I can remember certain customers, ones that were more on the friend side of the equation, coming in, after they have proved me wrong in something that I made sure I was not giving them a definate answer (grammar? my high school english teacher is rolling over in her grave... fixed ). Anyways, they would come in to tell me I was wrong. It is good to learn together, and I have learned many things over the years from customers. ...

Actually it is not fixed, Fixing it would correct the spelling to definite :razz: :razz: :mrgreen:

[Canadian Man]

I like What Steve is saying about the LFS choosing to be competitive or not. I Couldn't imagine paying $200 for a halide bulb!

I also agree with the continual comment about " Consumers having to educate themselves"

In my shop I work at (once again Not a LFS) We always check into what everyone else is charging for a product. Why? Well because it prevents up from looking stupid when some one buys it from us and then finds it elsewhere for cheeper. In my shop we CHOOSE to be competitive as well as provinding and offering advice the the customer MAY not allready know.

Reefman90. I can understand that people are busy doing things throughout their work day. BUT, The customer must always come first as thats who fortunatley pays the bills. It doesnt' matter weather your setting up a display or cleaning a tank. JUMP when the customer needs help and be aware when they do.

My tank takes a few minutes a day. I can understand that in a retail environment there needs to be someone to take care of the tanks. Well someone should have that job and be on call if their needed and someone should be there to help the customers. I feel it's redundent talking about this because it should be common sense for most people but I realize it's not.

My experience happened on a Friday I believe. It was not very busy when I was in this store. Ample staff. I got service no problem but, the conversation has never gone this way you say it could have gone. The one time I kinda got to know some of the staff was when I was planning out a large system a few years ago...

[reefman90]

Hey guys...

I agree MH bulbs are pricey...not touching that one further.
What MO are you getting them from outa curiosity?

No, One thing I can see all the time is customers wanting something and NOT saying anything about it.

You want nice acros Rasta...have you ever said to you LFS employee/orderer..."can you get any nice acros"/

Acros do not sell well...some stores dont have the clientelle to bring them in all the time...and might bring in a few moderate priced ones.

Go in and ask them.

I am sure if you are wnating them, your name and number will be taken and then we can give you a call when we are doing an order..and perhaps work something out with you. Your not going to get them for free, but if you preorder MANY MANY stores are willing to give discounts!

This seems to go hand-in-hand with developing a personal relationship with a LFS employee...


And Rcipma...

Just so you know....MO and LFS have a lot different types and levels of overhead... these should be taken into account when you are comparing these two fruits (get it apples and oranges)


ALso, I agree that it is mostly the consumer/hobbiest to educate themselves...and at the same time it is the LFS employees duty to not miseducate....or try to educate beyondd their abilities...just to look at the other side of the coin as well...(carpentersreef, tony)


reefman

PS great thread.

[Quinn]

Here's a suggestion. Next time we have a frag meet, how about some of the LFS employees come out...

[reefman90]

Ya....

Got any LFS employee friends?????....(sorry just to reiterate the point I have been trying to make...)

If they felt welcome I am sure they would come...just thing that tat this point it could been seen as pretty intimidating...I know if I was a LFS employee reading this...to an extent with some of you I would feel somewhat like the enemy...

How would you feel in reverse roles..?????
reefman

[Quinn]

Wait a sec... I thought that employees were paid to approach customers, not the other way around. I don't think it's my responsibility to make friends with them. :razz: I tell you what, when they start acknowledging my presence, I'll start acknowledging theirs. I don't think we've ever had a Calgary LFS employee show up on this board, or at least any that actually hung around. Yet we know they read this board. Why are they so afraid to speak up and defend or speak for themselves? :neutral:

As an aside, I do have a friend who is a former LFS employee, and was an LFS employee when I met him.

Don't take any of this personally, I'm still enjoying this thread a great deal. :smile:

[Bob I]

And Rcipma...

Just so you know....MO and LFS have a lot different types and levels of overhead... these should be taken into account when you are comparing these two fruits (get it apples and oranges)

Just as a matter of interest, the filter I bought was from J&L, who were smart enough to do both Storefront, and MO. I could have walked into the store in Burnaby, and bought the filter at the same price as the sell it MO.


:rolleyes:

[reefman90]

Yes...I can understand the employee is supposed to approach you..but with your attitude...I can see you just saying no when asked if they need a hand, not knowing if the employee can help you or not...I am not for sure about this, cause I do not know you as a person..just from what I have read on this board/thread. I think that you need to keep an open mind to what I am saying...

No it is not your responsibility to approach an employee...

Yes, I think some of you guys have a very closed mind as to getting to know a LFS employee...


BTW you did not respond to my question about reverse roles and you being A LFS employee that has little or no control over what goes on in your store reading the board....would you want to speak up????.

The best part is that I probably know everyone of you and have talked to you at one time or another in my time at LFS. Your guys's avatar should be your faces....haha mugshots....no, but really...knowing wwho is saying some of this stuff might make it easier to get some LFS guys on the board...


reefman

On a side note, I know some VERY knowlegable teen (16-21) reef aquarists. Sometimes tehse are the best tanks, the ones that have to get by on low income...etc...

[reefman90]

rcipema,

I know...vancouver is a different market than Calagry though too....

WE have to take everything into consideration...and there are so many factors. . .

Makes it almost impossible to compare...

Also,

I have never been to JL...would love to go, but out of curiosity...how long do you have to wait there to talk to someone? Is it long? Do they have knowlegeable staff? Do they have anyone who is learning the ropes?

Reefman

Also...What came first the chicken or the egg?

All Employees with experience, were once employees with little or limited experience.

[Quinn]

I should stop slandering teens, yes. I am sure there are fine aquarists who are hardly 20 years old.

What this conversation comes down to for me is that other than one single LFS in Edmonton, Albertan shops have consistent and rather serious issues that cause me to either not want to shop there, or not want to visit there at all.

Until I want to spend time in an LFS, a relationship between myself and the employee will not develop. Some of the responses to this thread are rather long and because of this I am probably missing the jist of what some people have said, but I don't think I should be expected to excuse the LFS employee with good intentions stuck in a sub-par store. If that were me, and I was losing sleep over the problem issues, I'd attempt to change the way the store was managed, and if that didn't work, I'd quit. If you're suggesting that I wouldn't talk to customers either if I worked in a store I felt bad about, you're partly right. At some point in time, if the situation was stressful enough, cognitive dissonance would kick in and I'd start thinking about the situation differently, ie. in a way that would reduce my anxiety over the situation.

The problem isn't the employee per say, however, it's the management. I will go out on a limb here and speculate that the reason why I've found so many LFS employees to be uneducated/unfriendly is because the hobbyists who are willing to spend the time to learn about the hobby and who have outgoing personalities to boot probably have better jobs because a. they are older b. they have skills that can earn them more than the $8/hour I expect most LFS employees are paid. The cream rises to the top right. I am fairly certain that if LFS' paid $60,000 salaries you'd see a lot of the people on this board applying. Occasionally you get a 16 year old kid who does care about the hobby and knows a lot. However he or she is the exception, not the rule.

You are correct in assuming that when asked if I need a hand, I probably say no. Because it's the truth. I don't trust that the fish aren't all chock-full of cyanide, I don't like the fact that there's a dried-up flame angel lying on the floor, and I don't like the fact that those mushrooms are $50 each. On the occasions that I have gotten into a discussion with an employee, the conversation seems to centre around the store's problem with valonia and hair algae, or the fact that they are trying to sell people a shark egg and a seahorse for their 50 gallon tank.

In short, we seem to have bad taste in our mouth regarding LFS' here in Alberta. We've presented our case, now it's the defenses turn to approach the bench.

[EmilyB]

Acros do not sell well...some stores dont have the clientelle to bring them in all the time...and might bring in a few moderate priced ones.

Go in and ask them.

I am sure if you are wnating them, your name and number will be taken and then we can give you a call when we are doing an order..and perhaps work something out with you. Your not going to get them for free, but if you preorder MANY MANY stores are willing to give discounts!

This seems to go hand-in-hand with developing a personal relationship with a LFS employee...


You are not talking to a bunch of newbies here. :rolleyes: We've been the route. I know someone at every store I shop at here. That doesn't change the fact that they have some serious changes to make.

You should visit J&L. Say hi to Allen or John for me. They usually greet me as I walk in the door. :cool:
You sound rather young. Do I know you? :razz: :mrgreen:

[EmilyB]

I agree MH bulbs are pricey...not touching that one further.
What MO are you getting them from outa curiosity?



tut tut tut....you haven't done your homework..... :razz: :lol:

[reefman90]

Young...why might you say that??


PS I will be in chat for the next 1/2 hour - 45 mins

[EmilyB]

He said Regina.... :lol:

That's bad, right :question:

:lol: Of course not, don't you ever watch David Letterman ? :razz:

[Buccaneer]

Ya....

Got any LFS employee friends?????....(sorry just to reiterate the point I have been trying to make...)

If they felt welcome I am sure they would come...just thing that tat this point it could been seen as pretty intimidating...I know if I was a LFS employee reading this...to an extent with some of you I would feel somewhat like the enemy...

How would you feel in reverse roles..?????
reefman

You know what ? ... we are spinning our wheels with this dude :rolleyes: ... he keeps insisting that we should get all warm and fuzzy with LFS employee when we have all been down that road before to a greater or lesser extent ... as to ordering in acros there is only one store I know of that carries them and you have to take your money out and flash it around for him to get off his stool let alone talk to you :evil:
I have said before that I have tried to get LFS to order in coral/fish and the answer is they get what they get ... you have a particular store in mind that will order in what we want then quit beating around the bush and name the store and the employee to talk to otherwise no more crap about it cause this is not our first rodeo.

So Quinn makes a great suggestion of LFS employees coming to a Calgary meet and now they should feel intimidated ??? ... they are being invited for crying out loud ! ... how can you feel intimidated when you are being invited somewhere ???

Enough of this " intimidation BS " ... what are we going to do ? ... beat them up with questions ?

[reefman90]

Ok...

Will consult with LFS.

Have been doing this withouit their consent..so who knows If I will be back.


Also, I know most stores are interested to get you in what you want...after all...you are a customer. I think you just gotta talk to the right person...Iknow whenever I go order...I will go over a special orders liskt that is made up by employees and customers....

just ask. . .

RM

[reefman90]

Thankyou for the invitation...I can agree that could help to combat the intimidation,... but the way you speak about petstores :mad: ...I mean....I dont know...

Sorry for the 2 msgs

[reefman90]

He is definently not the one I am talking about (stool)

And he hates me !

haha

[Quinn]

You don't make enough money for him to like you. See, I told you LFS employees are underpaid.

Come to the next get-together. Like Steve said, there's no point in continuing this any further.

By the way, you can edit messages and avoid having to double or triple post.

[AJ_77]

Is this thread still going on?! Are we any further ahead?

I would be THRILLED to see Danny (or anyone else from the industry) at one of our get-togethers...

:biggrin:

Regina! <*snicker*>

[Canadian Man]

reefman

On a side note, I know some VERY knowlegable teen (16-21) reef aquarists. Sometimes tehse are the best tanks, the ones that have to get by on low income...etc...

I'm Almost in that age group :biggrin: I have a huge tank and make a very low income. I also know alot. Does that count for anything?

Alan, Progress I think = 0

Good luck ever seeing any of our LFS friendlies at our meetings. :rolleyes:

[MitchM]

I have a huge tank and make a very low income. I also know alot. Does that count for anything?

:lol:

Mitch

[EmilyB]

Hey.. aussiefishy...picked up your card today... :razz:

[Stretch]

I didn't add my .02 to this thread mainly because i don't really make my way to calgary as often as edmonton. With the Calgary stores each has a something to offer that the others can't. I'll stay clear of the other debate.

How ever going to edmonton yesterday I wasn't to impressed with AI.


But beening in Alberta we have to take what we can get.

[aussiefishy]

:confused: who picked up my card?? i have only been asked by Bob who i am and what store i work at.... next time say hi ok?

and may i use this chance to thank you for people who welcome
me in this forum :biggrin: .

:eek: by no means i am an expert in marine aquarium, but i am very interested and learning everyday... and i have been ordering fishes and corals specially for customers before... majority of times i can tell customer about waittime and estimate price...

:cry: i think majority of customers have been "burnt" to some extend, that is why they are building up a very protective barrier. and i totally agree something needs to be done for communication and building their relationship with employee.

:smile: to be fair with the shop owner, it is the POV of a client and owner, i guess it is kind of touchy, because in the pet industry after-sales service is very important... maybe the club should issue an invitation to recommanded stores in calgary, or invite one store at a time.... to really talk to the owner and it's marine employees, to really see who is there for you.

cheers

[EmilyB]

:confused: who picked up my card?? i have only been asked by Bob who i am and what store i work at.... next time say hi ok?



It was almost closing time. You weren't there. :razz:

By the way, if you stick a bunch of anemones in a tank together, they will sting each other and die. You should rectify that. :confused:

[aussiefishy]

oh! those anemones....

something to think about is that, it is a shop, not a zoo... i totally agree that a shop should provide suitable environment for livestock, but to what extent?? proper salinity, lighting, currents, protein skimming i think,

we are not importing them to put into a tank for 5-6 years... things have to remember is the rate they are selling at, and also available space for anemones in a shop. from our experience, the amount of time each anemone in our shop is between 1-7 days. IMO, the stinging do not take long enough to harm anemones. (we have not seen anemones dying in our store in that system).. and if you ever take up diving into the tropics, anemones are somehow aggregates together as well.

anyway, if space is available, as we are renovating, and building new stocking tanks, we can certainly do that.

something for your thinking, if a shop can retify every little things for customer without looking at reality such as cost and benefit analysis, would that be nice?? it will be like looking at a world where no tax, free education and transport, welfare (all in the good names in providing nice environment for us to live)... will anyone open a store without thinking about cost??

something to think about
:lol:

Cheers

[Quinn]

something to think about is that, it is a shop, not a zoo... i totally agree that a shop should provide suitable environment for livestock, but to what extent?? proper salinity, lighting, currents, protein skimming i think,


If you read through the first five pages of this thread, you'll see that this topic has already essentially been covered. If the stores want the respect of the reefers on this board, they need to start being responsible. Even if you want to put profit ahead of livestock health, you still have to remember that a happy animal is a happy customer. You're an Economics major right?

The marine aquarium trade is fundamentally different from most other industries. If a car comes off the line a lemon, it can be replaced. If a poinsettia has a pest on it, the nursery can throw it out and grow another. But every animal that comes out of the ocean is one less in the ocean, and one less to propagate the species. The environmentalists know this, the governments know this, are the stores going to clue in before it's too late and harvesting/importing of livestock is completely banned?

[aussiefishy]

after reading what i have wrote, sounds like everyone is thinking that i am defending the store owners... well, enough of this topic, some people think i don't read my topic thread... some think i might be thinking, business is business... then i have to defend econimic theory to some people i don't even know. but basically, it depends on if it is demand driven or supply driven market... as far as i know, i am still very green on everything, i am young and needs to learn alot.

i guess i will try my best to change the store owner POV, educate beginners one at a time, and try not to educate beginners wrong concepts. and do my bit to the marine industry.

it is tiring sometimes to see people just ignore the problem the industry/hobby are in, while only commenting wrong things people did. it sounds to me some individual is trying pick at tiny stuff while ignoring the fact that LFS are improving. :rolleyes:

:idea: encouragement is needed in this industry because workers earn low salary, and why are they staying?? maybe they can't get other job?? or they earn repect from their loyal clients??

[incoma]

I missed it what store he at. I was at big Al's met Nate there where a few neat things. I hope they where just gettin things moved around when I was. I hate the drive out there. Franco's will be gettin saltwater soon. I m not sure when soon is. She did offer to get me liverock. I need like 50 more pounds errr.

[Quinn]

Someone is going to PM me soon and tell me to stop trying to keep this thread alive... :neutral:

encouragement is needed in this industry because workers earn low salary, and why are they staying?? maybe they can't get other job?? or they earn repect from their loyal clients??

I think it's safe to say that saying that staff stay because of client loyalty is grasping at straws (there's a tongue twister for you). I'd speculate it's more likely convenience (finding a new job takes more effort than staying at one you've already got) and having reached a glass ceiling (ie. inadequate skillsets to move any higher). Certainly there are some people who do it because they love it, but in our money-oriented society those individuals are few and far between.

As far as economic theory goes, this world hardly runs on supply and demand these days. Government subsidies, anti-monopoly laws and organized consumers groups have done away with that type of thing. If companies like Shell and Imperial Oil have become environmentally-minded to protect their reputation, there's no excuse for pet stores not to be. I think that the age of everything being a commodity to be bought and sold is coming to an end. The problem this industry has is greed. Cyanide use and unsustainable collection volumes are testimony to this. Everyone involved needs to become aware of this before any headway will be made. It's one thing to ship nets off to the collectors and try to certify all imports - how much is actually being accomplished. Unfortunately most of our livestock comes from southeast Asia, an area with larger problems than just unsustainable fish and coral collection. Europeans and North Americans are perfectly happy to buy natural resources and labour from former colonies. 3rd World nations are desperate for foreign investment, and they will sell their daughters, forests or fish to get it. We can't ask them to regulate everything on their end. At some point in time the nations bringing in the fish and livestock will have to start turning back unsuitable or at-risk species, and regulating how many of each animal enter the country. If animals keep getting sent from Indonesia or the Phillipines just to die in a glass box in Alberta, soon enough there won't be anymore.

[EmilyB]

It's just pretty much of a good example of the current thinking in some(most) of our local LFS.

Enuf said.

:neutral:

[Delphinus]

oh! those anemones....

something to think about is that, it is a shop, not a zoo... i totally agree that a shop should provide suitable environment for livestock, but to what extent?? proper salinity, lighting, currents, protein skimming i think,

we are not importing them to put into a tank for 5-6 years... things have to remember is the rate they are selling at, and also available space for anemones in a shop. from our experience, the amount of time each anemone in our shop is between 1-7 days. IMO, the stinging do not take long enough to harm anemones. (we have not seen anemones dying in our store in that system).. and if you ever take up diving into the tropics, anemones are somehow aggregates together as well.



1) If you ever take up diving into the tropics, you will see that anemones are emphatically NOT "somehow aggregate together." The only exception to this are the species that are able to clone, and form colonies. But this is not true of all species of anemone.

If you look at any piece of the Great Barrier Reef, for example, you can swim 100m before encountering any anemone whatsoever. You can't swim a stone's throw in any direction before you surpass hundreds of SPS or other species.

Anemones do not hang out together on the reef. To quote Dr. Ron Shimek in a conversation we had about a year or two ago, "multi-species assemblages are neither natural nor desireable."

2) You are not importing them to live in a tank for 5-6 years but you are importing them. So if they don't live for 5-6 years after they leave your shop does that exonerate you because it wasn't in your care? What about the oft-quoted statistic that maybe 1 in 10 anemones imported live to be >5years in captivity? Of those 9 how many did not make it past the first 6 months? Or 3 months? Or 1 month? If an animal melts in the first week, was it because the animal was acclimated poorly or because the tank was ill-suited? Maybe, but what about the possibility that the animal was so stressed or compromised that the last acclimation was just the final kick in the pants to seal its fate? Anemones do not find each other in multiple numbers in such close quarters and one of the worst things you can do to a stressed anemone is put it into a closed system with many other stressed anemones. The collection to retail process is in my opinion extremely harsh on them and I think we can't disregard what happens before we buy the animals as a factor in the absolute horrid statistics for long-term success (or lack thereof) of anemones in captivity. Especially shameful considering that our best guesses for anemone lifespans is that it is immeasureable.

An anemone collected out of the wild is that much less habitat for a wild breeding pair of clownfish. We really, really need to tread more carefully with anemones because I think the future for them in the wild is grim if we don't start getting our act together.


3) It is a shop, not a zoo. But to what extent do you keep conditions suitable? To the fullest extent practical. If it is not practical to properly care for the animal during the duration of its stay in your facilities, I think the ethical choice is to not offer that animal. Even if that means disappointing a few customers along the way.

[Buccaneer]

oh! those anemones....

something to think about is that, it is a shop, not a zoo... i totally agree that a shop should provide suitable environment for livestock, but to what extent?? proper salinity, lighting, currents, protein skimming i think,

we are not importing them to put into a tank for 5-6 years... things have to remember is the rate they are selling at, and also available space for anemones in a shop. from our experience, the amount of time each anemone in our shop is between 1-7 days. IMO, the stinging do not take long enough to harm anemones. (we have not seen anemones dying in our store in that system).. and if you ever take up diving into the tropics, anemones are somehow aggregates together as well.


something to think about
:lol:

Cheers

Here is the thing ... anemones typically dont react to unsuitable environments in a really negative way for awhhile ( awile can be defined in hours or days or weeks or even months ) ... as a result if you only have them in your tanks for 1 to 7 days then who knows what adverse effects happen after they leave your care ? ... as to anemones living in a communal setting ... they are more than likely clones and of the same species ... clones will easily cohabitate with their own but react negatively with other species especially in a closed system.

So the whole point is not to rake you over the coals for some anemones ... as Quinn has so eloquently pointed out some of the shortfalls of the industry and you have also pointed out the challenges you face and hopefully we can do whats best for everyone even if it means that we ( collectively ) have to pay a little more to ensure that these animals have a good chance at survival when they reach your stores and beyond to our marine habitats.

We look forward to improved displays and quality of selection :cool:

Cheers

[Buccaneer]

You and I were posting at the same time Tony :smile:

Cheers

[EmilyB]

(we have not seen anemones dying in our store in that system)..

Well I did.

Yesterday. Tell me it lived. :rolleyes:

[Delphinus]

clones will easily cohabitate with their own but react negatively with other species especially in a closed system.


(On a point of interest) not only other species but even specimens of the same species that are non-clonal siblings. In fact, competition for survival among same species may be greatest because they are competing for the same niche in the habitat (need same resources, etc.)...

[Buccaneer]

(On a point of interest) not only other species but even specimens of the same species that are non-clonal siblings. In fact, competition for survival among same species may be greatest because they are competing for the same niche in the habitat (need same resources, etc.)...

Good point Tony ... I was mostly referring to Clones in my example but your point is well taken in reference to the species as a whole ...

Cheers

[saltcreep]

Where to start??? After being away for a couple of days, I'm compelled to waid into this quagmire of crap. Where to start???

I will say that fundamentally this industry is much like any other, believe it or not. When you get down to the root of it, all the products, be it dry goods or live, are a commodity. Don't even drag oil companies into this argument...that's a whole other board for another day. The two industries don't even compare.

Industry greed...well I would like to add that you, the hobbyist (nobody specifically out there), are part of this industry, and thus, are part of the problem too. This is where the market forces come into play. Much is made of the collectors, exporters, importers, and LFS, but I don't here a peep on these boards when a hobbyist purchases a product that is unsuitable or at risk. Apparantly that is taboo. I agree that most of you are ones that actually care, but make up the minority of trade. There are a great many that make purchases solely on price. This could explain why the majority of the fish and inverts come from Indonesia or the Philippines. Check back to other discussions on this board and look at some of the comments. Hobbyists (few) would rather save money and purchase a fish that may have been caught with cyanide rather than pay a premium for a fish that is guaranteed caught without. Why don't you see coral beauties from either Fiji or Australia with any regularity? Answer - too much money for the average hobbyist when compared with the same fish from Indo or PI.

Now take a look at captive bred product. Why isn't there more? Answer - see above. The average hobbyist again will balk at purchasing that CB clown because it's twice the price of the wild caught clown. I have 5 captive bred seahorses that I've had for seven weeks. I haven't sold single horse...because they are too expensive.

My mind is about to explode, so let me have it.

[EmilyB]

Just curious, but where are you from saltcreep? :confused:

[saltcreep]

Why...I know too much? I could tell you a lot more, but would get myself into trouble. Actually, I am co-owner of Coast Mountain Aquatics in Vancouver (wholesale only). I 'm ready to take all you've got :lol: .

[incoma]

Wow where gettin quite the audience.

[Buccaneer]

Well then that brings up a interesting point in that a LFS could get their hands on quality if they choose to and as a wholesaler you are privy to this information ... now a LFS that proudly advertises non-cyanide caught fish and has to pay a premium for it can get a premium in return ... for one thing there wont be as much die-off in their own tanks before they even get sold and they could QT the fish as well which as hobbyists appreciate since there seems to be a large number that cant resist putting that new fish into their tanks right away but at the risk of infecting all the fish in their tanks by doing so ...

the majority of people you say would buy the fish even if it was cyanide caught I bet ya dont even know that fish can be caught with cyanide :rolleyes: ... what needs to be done is to educate the public of the advantages of net caught over cyanide caught ... ask anyone that has been on one of these boards for at least a few months how much they have learned about the hobby as a whole and they appreciate the education these boards provide ... nice to see another point of view ... hope that does not hurt your head too much ? :razz:

Cheers

[Canadian Man]

I would love a seahorse in my 75g fuge. I was getting excited. The price wouldn't have mattered much but as you said we only make up a fragment of the reefers

[AJ_77]

Yeah, it's the thread that wouldn't die... :rolleyes: :biggrin:
Much is made of the collectors, exporters, importers, and LFS, but I don't here a peep on these boards when a hobbyist purchases a product that is unsuitable or at risk. Apparantly that is taboo. I agree that most of you are ones that actually care, but make up the minority of trade.
Even gently scolding a newbie is a risk, especially one that you have the thinnest relationship with (as in on this board). Telling a guy that he's an idiot for buying that CBB when everyone told him not to, is going to get him ****ed off and most likely gone for good, making his mistakes on his own from here on in... Or that anemone, or that tang, or that dragonette, etc etc etc...

It's only the people you know who'll take correction from you, and even then, it's easy to take offense and leave. Nobody is trying to kill anything, it just happens...

You actually do see a tremendous amount of restraint on this board, when it comes to chiding people for unsuitable purchases, mostly before the fact. Sometimes I want to lay a lashing on folks, but hey, I'm no expert either. When the experienced reefers do step in with stronger advice (and where the heck IS Van anyways??) even that is taken wrong. Some of the best advice I've seen has provoked the idiots it was intended for.

(No offense intended of course... :wink: I think we need a Don Cherry for the reefing community - to tell it like it is. :lol: )

[saltcreep]

Here, here to education. Why do you think I frequent these boards? Most of you know as much or more about proper husbandry than I.

I would also agree that the vast majority of hobbyists are oblivious to environtmental concerns and others that just don't care. Trust me, doing the right thing doesn't always end with $ucce$$.

There are a lot of good LFS out there and some real bad ones. Some of the bad ones we try and help out and we try to be available to the ones that look for our help. It is also the LFS responsibility to educate themselves, just as the hobbyist...which I guess gets back to the whole point of the thread.

[Quinn]

I am going to loose sleep over this thread. Here we go again...


I will say that fundamentally this industry is much like any other, believe it or not. When you get down to the root of it, all the products, be it dry goods or live, are a commodity. Don't even drag oil companies into this argument...that's a whole other board for another day. The two industries don't even compare.


Obviously you're not looking at this from the same perspective as me then, because I think there are a lot of parallels here. Let's look at Shell in Nigeria when we compare, for a moment. We are talking about harvesting a natural resource, one that is only semi-renewable, from a foreign country, a foreign country that is in a state where they are desperate for foreign investment. These states are relatively young and underdeveloped, and do not have established protocol for the harvesting of natural resources. We do not need to discuss human rights infringements but we can certainly compare the two industries. Therefore I would argue that marine livestock collection in southeast Asia and oil drilling in Africa are relatively similar, versus say, the former and logging in British Columbia. This was my essential point.


Industry greed...well I would like to add that you, the hobbyist (nobody specifically out there), are part of this industry, and thus, are part of the problem too. This is where the market forces come into play. Much is made of the collectors, exporters, importers, and LFS, but I don't here a peep on these boards when a hobbyist purchases a product that is unsuitable or at risk. Apparantly that is taboo. I agree that most of you are ones that actually care, but make up the minority of trade. There are a great many that make purchases solely on price. This could explain why the majority of the fish and inverts come from Indonesia or the Philippines. Check back to other discussions on this board and look at some of the comments. Hobbyists (few) would rather save money and purchase a fish that may have been caught with cyanide rather than pay a premium for a fish that is guaranteed caught without. Why don't you see coral beauties from either Fiji or Australia with any regularity? Answer - too much money for the average hobbyist when compared with the same fish from Indo or PI.


For every LFS there are probably several thousand aquarists. Therefore the power, I believe, lies more in their hands, and the hands of importers/wholesalers, to deal with unsuitable/at-risk animals, versus the hobbyists. Alan has pointed out that it is difficult for us hobbyists to tell a newbie not to put seahorses in a reef tank or not to buy a mandarin for a 20 gallon. The answer, once again, is to stop their importation or license their ownership. You say that none of the blame falls on the hobbyist - I hear where you are coming from, but how do you blame a child for manslaughter when the parent handed him a loaded gun? The stores, wholesalers and importers need to start acting responsibly, first off by helping educate newbies rather than pushing for the almighty dollar and secondly by restricting or working with the authorities to restrict certain species.


Now take a look at captive bred product. Why isn't there more? Answer - see above. The average hobbyist again will balk at purchasing that CB clown because it's twice the price of the wild caught clown. I have 5 captive bred seahorses that I've had for seven weeks. I haven't sold single horse...because they are too expensive.


We'll balk at high costs yes, but what if the stores only sold captive-bred? Again you are trying to defer the blame, which sounds good, but doesn't make sense. If stores stopped stocking both and didn't note whether the animals were wild-caught or captive-bred, hobbyists wouldn't know the difference and wouldn't have a thing to balk about. Also, remember that the vast majority of fish have not been bred in captivity. As far as I know, it's limited to essentially certain types of clowns, damsels, gobies, angelfish, shrimps and seahorses, and with a few exceptions, we only see damsels and clownfish in stores.

The feeling I'm getting from the people on the commercial side of things here is that "it can't be done". Us hobbyists are saying "oh please, we know it's easy". I think the reality is somewhere in between, and I'll quote Caterpillar Corp's slogan from back in the 70s, a time when the public was just beginning to become aware of the environmental issues associated with the harvesting of natural resources: "There are no simple solutions, only intelligent choices". And I'll add my own maxim to this, for good measure: "There are no simple answers to complex problems. Anyone who thinks there are is an idiot."

[saltcreep]

Don't lose any sleep, this is getting good.

WRT oil vs fish, I see your point, but the end product use is completely different...one is arguably a necessity and the other is a luxury "consumable". You could also argue the investment side, where African governments are raking in billions of dollars while crushing rights of their constituents while collectors in PI or Indo are trying to catch fish to feed their families. Now I promise...that is my last word about oil.

Now on to the heart of it...I believe that the vast majority of the blame can be placed on the importer, retailers, and the hobbyists. ALL of them. If I said that no blame falls on the hobbyist...ooops. I think a great deal falls on them, if not the majority. Again, if the newbie or uneducated doesn't want or buy the unsuitable fish/coral, then the retailer wouldn't buy it...and on the chain it goes. I know...oversimplified. As a side, I can remember getting yelled at buy an unnamed LFS for refusing to bring in a blue ring octopus.

Restricting certain species based on a perceived unsuitability will probably never happen. I would refer you to RC or RDO for that discussion, as it's been flogged pretty much to death.

A LFS store only selling captive bred??? That would never fly, period. Remember, the "average" generally will decide to purchase based on price. The "average" hobbyist will just shop elsewhere. They would certainly be able to tell if it was captive bred. How would you be able to justify the price if the guy down the street has the same fish for half the price.

Then you have the the issue of species availability. How many percs can you sell to pay your rent and hydro? The species commercially available today are very limited to about 10 species of clowns, a couple of cardinals, some dottybacks, and a few others. There are some Centropyge angels available but, big dollars. There is nothing wrong with wild caught fish as long as it is done with very little impact on the reef. CB and WC fish are not mutually exclusive. I believe they actually compliment each other nicely.

[Quinn]

Thanks for your response. I want to debate your oil industry comment further but I'm going to refrain, because I think we'd be getting even more off course.

I think we've made some headway in this thread, believe it or not. I always feel smarter when I participate in these big threads, even though I know it makes me look pretty dumb sometimes. The original topic was Calgary LFSs, and if this thread doesn't give them something to think about, I don't know what will. Hopefully we will see some serious improvements in the future.

[saltcreep]

Don't think the comments about the Calgary LFS are exclusive to them. There are good and bad everywhere. Hopefully, all will improve.

[aussiefishy]

just drop a line, i received a shipment from coastmountain this morning at 4am... very tired, i have to say the fish is very very good upon arrival. and the emperor and blue ring angels are eating after only 13 hrs from transport. :razz:

also, may i comment on the live rocks from coast mountain. very very good. :biggrin: top of the pack/!!

and a announcement, ocean aquarium will have a large coral shipment on december 3rd, anyone interested can be there on december 4th.

lastly, since i started this whole havoc. may i set a conclusion??

i think so far, i have seen alot of you saying alot, giving useful directions and comments on how to improve the LFS scene. and i think it is "safe" to conclude that LFS is important, we should try our best to improve on LFS owners and workers, this way, we all benefits. as far as how to do that, i am very very young and inexperience, and possibly been ****ing off alot of people in this topic... therefore it is not appropriate for me to suggest...

cheers :lol:

[Aquattro]

Please use the "Vendor Announcements" forum for shipment announcements. Thanks.

[Quinn]

Not trying to restart this thread, but what we've been talking about here was exemplified today on RC...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=277679

[Vagabond]

I'm just getting back into this hobby after 20 years and after visiting all of the above LFS's I am astounded by the lack of knowledge and the lets get as much money from the uneducated as we can attitude.

In my previous experience, long ago, the few LFS that carried marine had incredibly knowledgable staff/owners who actually enjoyed the hobby, shared their knowledge eagerly with their customers and did not try to rip you off. When I see J&L's prices vs all the LFS here in Calgary and when I see the state that most of their tanks and livestock are in I'm disgusted!

Anyone out there for starting up a LFS that strives to get the best equipment at honest prices, give great service, treats livestock conscientiously, and take an actual interest in their clientele let me know I,m on board.

Sorry for the rant but just my .02 worth

[MitchM]

Disgusted already? That didn't take long... :wink:
What do you consider "honest price"?

Mitch

[Vagabond]

When I see lighting systems at $150 more and replacement bulbs at $40 more. Then I begin to ? the honesty in their pricing. Now I understand every business needs to make a profit, but when does it become gauging?

My disgust was more in seeing dead livestock, I guess that would be deadstock, in several of the tanks. We can all go elsewhere if we want better prices, but it saddens me to see a beautiful marine specimen dead on the the bottom of the tank in a LFS and obviously having been there for awhile.

Cheers Scott

[Bob I]

My disgust was more in seeing dead livestock, I guess that would be deadstock, in several of the tanks. We can all go elsewhere if we want better prices, but it saddens me to see a beautiful marine specimen dead on the the bottom of the tank in a LFS and obviously having been there for awhile.

Cheers Scott

That is the reality of the business. Many fish die after the trauma of being removed from the ocean, shipped for many hours etc. I am sure the retailer does not want his fish to die. It would be better for him for you to buy the fish , and have it die in your tank. However, that being said, the cost of that dead fish has to be added to the cost of the fish you buy. That of course is one of the reasons for the high cost of marine fish. The retailer has to make money, or get out of the business.
As far as dry good go, the online seller can sell cheaper. He has no cost of renting a store, pay staff etc.

[Vagabond]

I understand that there is an unavoidable level of attrition, but please, that does not excuse the LFS from leaving dead fish in the tank for days as I have seen recently.

[TANGOMAN]

Whenever my sweetie join's me on "LFS crawls" it's almost alway's a sure bet that a dead fish will be seen somewhere. It bothers me to see that it's just ignored but I suppose I'm immune to it ? Not my little woman though. No sir. She'll march right up to the first staff member she see's and inform them of her findings and sugguest something be done about it !
She was once informed that "they were aware of that and they allow the other fish to consume the remains..." :eek: . That went over well... :rolleyes:

[Quinn]

As far as dry good go, the online seller can sell cheaper. He has no cost of renting a store, pay staff etc.

This is a fairly poor argument Bob. J&L is one of the cheapest sources for both livestock and dry goods in Canada, and they have a storefront and staff. There are costs associated with selling, whether you're online or not. A guy shipping fish out of his basement has to pay for the associated electricity, water, etc. Even drop shippers (as LiveAquaria.com is said to be) must pay for a location and associated costs, and the cost of holding the animals while they assemble the order.

Even more disappointing than dead fish in tanks is starving fish in tanks. The dead ones may have died during shipping. But there's no reason animals should be starving at the LFSs.

[MitchM]

Even more disappointing than dead fish in tanks is starving fish in tanks. The dead ones may have died during shipping. But there's no reason animals should be starving at the LFSs.

One of the reasons behind fish starving in LFS tanks is the fact that they were caught using cyanide, which I believe will also destroy the bacteria living in the intestines, so while a fish may have lots of food available, and may indeed be eating, the fish is getting no nutritional benefit.

The same goes for over medicating with copper.

I pretty sure about cyanide doing that, but I may be wrong. That's one of the problems associated with cyanide collection.

Not to mention that there they were, swimming in their nice comfy ocean, and all of a sudden they find themselves in a bare tank with lots of other fish.
There may be some stress associated with that too.... :wink:

Mitch

[danny zubot]

Why buy something over the net that you aren't guarenteed to get alive. In my experience you can find good healthy livestock at Wai's, they are also the best for corals in Calgary. I have also had great success with all fish that I've purchased from Petcetera belive it or not. Stay far far away from Big Al's as my success rate with their fish is 0%.

[albert_dao]

Hi there guys. I've been reading these boards for a long time but never really took the time to sign up. My mentality centralized on the fact that I am an LFS employee (Gold Aquariums) and therefore my opinions will always be regarded as biased. I'm speaking from past experiences.

Regardless, I really have to comment on all this. The LFS will always be a starting point for anyone to get into the hobby. That's a fact.

I think the biggest issue here is that no one says anything. No one tells the LFS what their concerns are (dead fish yeah, but really, when's the last time most of you have stepped up to bat and told anyone "hey, you shouldn't import those things anymore" or "look buddy, you're ripping me off and I know it".

Voice your concerns. Let them know that you know. If enough opinions become valid to the LFS business, that would make any responsible LFS owner at the very least consider the changes.

I'm not sure if I've dug myself a hole somewhere here, but honestly, I think that if change is to be made, the consumer has to let the dealer know directly rather then hole up on some message boards and debate on the merits who's good and who's horrible.

Anyway, what do you guys do at your meets and when are they?

[Quinn]

So you're saying that these store keepers, who've been in the hobby for years, can't identify for themselves what constitutes poor practice? :neutral: I agree we hobbyists could say something, but that doesn't make it our responsibility, and I don't think our advice/recommendations/opinions would be welcome in most cases.

We have meetings now and again, and generally just eat, talk and look at the host's tanks. You would be most welcome I am sure.

[albert_dao]

Some are in it for the money. Some are unresponsible. Whatever the reason, my point is that if you know you're getting a bunch of balogna, don't just take it up silently. Some people will continue with whatever they can get away with for as long as they can.

Whichever way it is, I'm not defending Gold Aquariums. I don't see any need to.

None of what I say is meant in a confrontational manner either. Just my $.02.

----------------------------

Cool! I'll keep my eyes peeled for them. Thanks!

So you're saying that these store keepers, who've been in the hobby for years, can't identify for themselves what constitutes poor practice? :neutral: I agree we hobbyists could say something, but that doesn't make it our responsibility, and I don't think our advice/recommendations/opinions would be welcome in most cases.

We have meetings now and again, and generally just eat, talk and look at the host's tanks. You would be most welcome I am sure.

[danny zubot]

I remember a pretty heated argument with an employee at Big Al's that I was in, they ended up tag teaming me before I could prove my point. They weren't will ing to listen to my concerns as I was just a lowly customer and they are all "experts". Try telling some one like Bigs Al's that they are doing something wrong and see were it gets you.

Maybe my aproach was wrong in this certian instance, but every time I go in there just to look, I am amazed at how their employees treat customers. Some will say anything to make a sale just like used car salesman, Thanks for letting me vent again, I love bashing Big Al's!

[danny zubot]

Incidently Albert, I have been going to Gold's for a long time for cichlids and now for marine. I have had nothing but good livestock and the service seems honest, thanks! Anything cool at Gold's that I should come and check out?

[albert_dao]

One day, I'll do it. I'll go somewhere and ask if that sea apple is safe for my tang and angel tank. See how that goes.

[albert_dao]

Incidently Albert, I have been going to Gold's for a long time for cichlids and now for marine. I have had nothing but good livestock and the service seems honest, thanks! Anything cool at Gold's that I should come and check out?

We get new marines in every Friday. Corals every two weeks or so.

[TANGOMAN]

I have a sense I may regret getting involved in this "dispute", but far be it from me to sit quietly and listen to things I find arguable.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion and frankly, that's what this board is all about. It does bother me when an individual can praise one store and bash another. Especially when my experiences are completely opposite. How can a store be praised when it boasts such arrogant service and houses such disease ridden livestock... :confused: . My solution is simple. I do voice my concerns and disgust when justifiable but when the response quoted is "they're only fish..." I've done my part. My business is done elsewhere. End of story... If the experiences are reversed for others, I suggest you do the same ! Go elsewhere. And continue to go elsewhere. So many people will critisize a store yet they continue to support them. That makes you as guilty as them.
Indeed some places are simply in it for the sale. That is present in every industry and it is unfortunate. So tell them. If they "tag team" you with the additude they know more than you...perhaps you entered into a battle which should not have been began. :confused: .
I try and carry a degree of respect for all individuals who work in this chosen industry. I like to think their experiences are something from which I can gain from. As a consumer, we have a responsibility of making informed decisions. Making that decision based on one individuals recomendations can be a very dangerous practice.
As a hobbiest for many years, I've always found some individuals who are quick to boast about their wisdom in the hobby. Some are legitimate, others simply don't understand the concept of two ears and only one mouth...as I've expanded my hobby into a form of business I meet even more people with the "know it all attitude". I politely listen and let them express themselves. If I disagree or feel they're "mis-informed", I tell them. I can quickly distinguish between those who are willing to share experiences and learn from on another, and those who just need to talk. I can't change that and I don't try to...
Perhaps our "approach" or "delivery" with the industry employees should be re-considered as these individuals see it all, every day. I consider myself very experienced in this hobby but I never fail to listen to those I meet that are passionate about this hobby too. I've been keeping fish for nearly thirty years but much of what I learn is from people who have been doing it for perhaps only two years. As Steve so appropriately stated once, "there's more than one way to skin a cat".

Before I totally get off topic let me say this. Talk to your retailers. They might just care enough to listen. If they don't, ask yourself, was it my approach or do they want my money and future refernces to go elsewhere...?

After reviewing this post, I'd like to add that "Gold's" is not one of the stores which I was referring to. Though limited, every experience with Dennis has been a positive one...

[Jim Barry]

Since this thread is once again resurfacing as a popular discussion topic, I thought I would throw in my comments.

Like most of us, I have spent thousands of dollars in this hobby and contiue to spend a considerable amount every month. I frequent all the LFS in Calgary on a regular basis to see what is new and always have my visa ready for that "impulse" purchase.

I have been in Wai's several times and often ask when the next acro shipment is coming in. I find his customer service to be absolutely terrible. Most times I am the only one in the store and he doesn't even look up from his front desk to say hello or ask if I need help.

I have finally vowed never to return and will take my business to the other LFS in Calgary or buy online from J&L or Ocean Aquatics.

I am not looking for a "deal", I will pay a premium for good service and honest advise.

My only regret is that I didn't tell Danny I wouldn't be back.

I hope he reads these posts on Canreef, but somehow I don't think he does or cares.

Jim :mad:

[albert_dao]

I got one for all you guys. Have any of you ever considered getting together and running the club like a business? I've seen this as a trend with larger fascilities such as the ACA (American Cichlid Association) or even on a smaller scale, it's Canadian counterpart.

[Quinn]

So you're suggesting we become a cooperative? That's a good idea, but we've had difficulty even getting a formal club off the ground, so I don't know if we'd get so far as to form a cooperative. :razz:

[albert_dao]

Oh, well in which case, I suppose that idea just went out the window.

[EmilyB]

Actually, since the logistics of a meeting based on the ever-growing members here has out-sized the normal home, perhaps it is time for a LFS to step up to the plate and host a meeting... :mrgreen:

[BiGG-MaC]

Gold Aquariums, in my own opinion is the best fish store in Calgary. They tell u what you need and they show it to u buy the display tank they set up. At Big Al's they get u to buy a bunch of junk that will end up useless afterwards. At Wai's the guy is a big @$$. Anyways i can go on forever. I like Golds because the price is great and I trust there knowledge. So if you guys have money to throw away then feel free to go else where.

[Fish]

I just want to add that I am probably guilty of supporting a LFS that does not have the best practices only because it is closer to my house and I thought the shorter drive would be less stressful to the livestock (maybe I should take another look at what is more stressful - the drive or the conditions in the store.)
I just wanted to add that I think a lot of responsibilty rests on us as consumers to make informed decisions. I usually research my purchase to death before buying something and haven't had too many problems. The animals I've lost have been because I made a stupid mistake or didn't read enough first. I know a lady that shops at the same LFS as me she has had such a different experience that it seems like a completely different store ie, no regard for stocking levels, multiple tangs in a 40gal, anemones under NO lighting. (I've now got her son signed onto RC and will make sure to send him here as well.)
I think the reason why I haven't gotten horrible advice like that is because I don't really ask for advise. I've found that you need to know beforehand whether or not an animal will work in your tank because if you ask the staff at my LFS the answer will always be "yes". I don't know how much LFS employees make an hour but I don't think its very much. It would be awsome if they were all compelled to spend a certain amount of time each week on canreef :biggrin: .
This thread has me thinking that it's probably time to check out some of the other stores in the city. Besides I've probably spent $4000 over the years at this store and I don't think they even know my name. :sad:

[danny zubot]

Everyone here knows my opinion about Big Al's so I'll simply say stat away! But I've had food experiences with Wai's 222 16th ave. NE for fish and corals, and so far Ocean's has been good for fish, center st and about 24th ave NE.

[Quinn]

But I've had food experiences with Wai's 222 16th ave. NE for fish and corals...

He sells those fugu puffers? I thought they were hard to prepare. :razz:

But seriously, it's interesting that a lot of people have had exactly the opposite experience. Good experiences at Big Al's, horrid at Wai's. Personally I avoid shopping anywhere in Calgary.

[MitchM]

I'm a full supporter of Wai's. I stay there because he gives me great service. Wai's was the last place I went to when I was getting into reefkeeping, after I tried everyone else and left disappointed.
I think the key is to stick to one shop and not purchase by price first.

LFS's want to keep good customers, and I don't think that you can be recognized as such at some larger stores if the employees are always changing.

Mitch