SPS frag selling guidelines v1.2

[fencer]

The last reefers meeting we talked about some hobbyist selling guidelines for frags. Below are some suggestions. Please feel free to comment and I will compile the ideas:

Guidelines for SPS Frag selling/buying V 1.2

1. Declare lighting conditions picture was taken
- the camera can also make a difference, with white balance
- Disclosure if picture was "photoshopped"
- Picture of the mother colony if possible

2. Frags should be at least 1/2 inch or larger or an accurate size measurement should be posted
- size helps the survivability

3. Frags should be pest free / iodine dipped ( at the buyer or the seller end )
- dipped the corals before packaging since this would increase the corals' stress during shipping
- should really be the buyer who does the dipping because in the end the only one you can trust is yourself

4. Frags should be on established bases( sometimes not possible)
- frags should be established and healed before being sold
- Coral growing on the plug is a good indication of health
- Sometimes it is not possible to establish growth on the plug...sometimes I frag/mount/sell this is
more a time issue.
- unmounted frags are less stressed

5. Price is what the market will bear
- guideline for pricing is approximately 1/2-2/3 market value
- the point is supporting others in the hobby and keeping the private trade alive by offering pieces at non retail prices.
- hobbyist prices should not be over 30.00/Frag...anything over...it better be rare


6. Return policy up to the seller / buyer
- communication is key idea and if I knew the person I would be more keen on giving
another frag should the original have problems.
- For private buying and selling there is always risk on each side of the fence, and there should always
be an agreement of expectations before the transaction is made.
- Canreef is not a forum for disputes. Deal with them though other means before going public

7. Buyer beware. ie: you going to buy a frag from a member that has no pics or reputation.
- Word of mouth is probably the best thing.
- Ask other Canreefer,s privately what they think



Notable comments

1. The biggest point I see in selling frags is just to keep "backups" of your colonies and in the end I
think it helps protect the wild colonies and your own. If something should happen to your tank (ie crash,
flood, pests etc) and you lost your most prized piece I would hope that there would be someone out there
with a frag that's able to replace your colony. I would argue that it probably won't bring profit unless
done on a large scale and in the end I believe helping others whether it'd be a neat coral or helping a
beginner out in return some of them will help you out when you need it. Of course there will be people
looking to make big bucks selling tiny tiny frags or people that will take advantage of that I don't mind
because most of the reefing community in large is quite nice and friendly.

2. For what it's worth, I might consider referring to this guide as more of a 'code of ethics' since that's really what it's all about.


3. I think the main point about pricing frags is to be reasonable about it. A 1 eye chalice frag may be worth $250 but keep in mind that it is mostly non limited sps (ie not ORA, Tyrees, GARF Purple Bonsai etc) we are talking about, just colourful pieces without a "special" name. The rare LPS supply is still quite small and there's a substantial demand for pieces and that would justify some of the prices. IMO I don't think its fair to give someone a single polyp and hope it survives for some ridiculous price even if it was well established and personally I wouldn't blow $250 on a single polyp, eye, etc "rare" frag no matter how pretty it is. Livestock doesn't depreciate in our tanks but the point is supporting others in the hobby and keeping the private trade alive by offering pieces at non retail prices.

[Kryptic4L]

1. the camera can also make a difference, with white balance...
2. why would you place restrictions on size, some grow slow some grow fast... the rarer, and harder to grow one's will sometimes be smaller which is preferrable to lower a price to obtainable for some people...
3. I hope you guys didnt think long and hard over this one.
4. you always run the risk of pest's, ignorant or not, I like to believe if people knowingly have something they will make mention of it. Regardless, this is more at the buyers end to inspect and treat before adding to their tank.
5. alot of people recommend tossing the base of aquacultured coral's.
6. refer to 3.

most people ive seen selling are not for profit but for space issues, the more difficult it is, the less likely they will hit the next persons hand rather then the trash.

[Myka]

I think communication between buyer and seller is of utmost importance. I believe all sellers should have an arrive alive shipping guarantee provided the package arrives on time and as agreed upon. If the package arrives late, then it would be the buyer's responsibility to buy insurance. Sometimes insurance isn't available for live shipments in which case I think buyers should be refunded/credited for the value of the frags minus shipping. For private buying and selling there is always risk on each side of the fence, and there should always be an agreement of expectations before the transaction is made.

Personally, I like to buy unmounted SPS frags as I find they tend to ship better, and I can choose what they get mounted to. I would also be rather PO'd if the seller dipped the corals before packaging since this would increase the corals' stress during shipping. I think dipping should remain the buyer's choice...I have received infested corals from vendors as well as private sales. A good guideline for pricing is approximately 1/2-2/3 market value (which is debatable).

[fencer]

reason 2 was to prevent somebody from selling "skin flap" Also I would never buy yet a quarter inch frag. It would have to be pretty rare. The larger the frag the better the survivial rate

I personally hate bases but I ask if people want them...but I factor in the price of the base

[fencer]

Pricing for a hobbyist selling frags I would be hard pressed to charge anybody more than 30.00. A retailer might differ. Again what ever the market will bear.

[Madreefer]

Good idea you have here. But who is really going to buy from someone without seeing pics of their tank and reading some of their posts. After being on this site for a while a person begins to figure out who's a dipchit and who is'nt even though we really are complete strangers to each other. Not trying to put a downer on your plan or start a debate but it would be to hard to police such a thing. It's up to the buyer to do their own asking of the product before they purchase it. Buyer beware. ie: you going to buy a frag from lets say Kein or Whatcaneyedo or some junior member that has no pics or reputation. Word of mouth is probably the best thing.

[lastlight]

Aside from the unwanted personal contact getting frags from Kein was a great experience.

[Zoaelite]

Aside from the unwanted personal contact getting frags from Kein was a great experience.

Unwanted? That's pretty much the only reason I go over to his house, I throw his frags in the front planter on the way out :lol:.

[Delphinus]

Moved this to the Lounge as it's not really an ad.

Is this something for your local clubs though? We could move it into the locality forum as such. I assume you're not talking about making these rules on Canreef because I am not going to enforce these rules without a 6 figure salary with huge bonuses regardless of yearly performance (it turns out the Health Superboard CEO job is already taken, darn it all).

[fencer]

Tony this is why these are guidelines. These are for personal use, not Canreef Forums / policy. This sort arose when at the local meeting when someone had mentioned they paid a lot of bucks essentially for a frag plug.

[bauder1986]

Tony this is why these are guidelines. These are for personal use, not Canreef Forums / policy. This sort arose when at the local meeting when someone had mentioned they paid a lot of bucks essentially for a frag plug.

Then it is Buyer beware policy only. If someone is going to pay the price for something when seeing it in person then they will have to live with all the possible consequences of buying the frags.


These rules however should apply to hobbyists SHIPPING to hobbyist.

That way there is an establish honor system for it.

[fishoholic]

The conversation arose when we noticed that some fish stores will sell frags that are always over an inch large while other fish stores sell you frags that you can barely tell that there really is a frag on the plug because it's so small. It's like I think a see a polyp, yep there it is look real close.

It's nice when some stores give you really good sized frags, but then you expect the same from other stores and then they don't, and it gets frustrating. We were thinking it would be nice it there was some sort of industry standard were if you buy a frag from a store it should be (at the very least) half an inch in size. Personally I like the stores (like Red coral) that give you an inch or more and that is their standard frag size. It's really disappointing when other stores don't do the same. Although I guess that's why RC gets a lot of business while some other stores don't.

[kien]

Buyer beware. ie: you going to buy a frag from lets say Kein or Whatcaneyedo or some junior member that has no pics or reputation. Word of mouth is probably the best thing.

Aside from the unwanted personal contact getting frags from Kein was a great experience.

I wanted to get some frags from Kein but he wouldn't stop talking about himself :neutral:. He's a bit of a narcissist, so buyer beware!!

[lockrookie]

i like this idea since im still new and green but what about a rating system for ppl that are selling frags for example i would rate dez a five star seller he was great and helpful. i didnt know him from a hole in the ground and took a chance. now i would gladly piurchace from him any time. but the rating system could be used for all sales not just frags. so when you have dealt with a person it would be your choice to rate but as a new buyer you can check the persons rating.

just a thought it may too much coding and hastle but it would be handy

[lastlight]

I wanted to get some frags from Kein but he wouldn't stop talking about himself :neutral:. He's a bit of a narcissist, so buyer beware!!

Kien don't assume I'm misspelling your name. If I had been talking about you I'd have mentioned a lot more than the un-warranted contact. :neutral:

[Jeff_]

Wow, seems like a lot was talked about at the last meeting, too bad I was tied up with some last minute plans. Would have loved to participate in the discussion but I guess I'll have to do it here instead :razz:
1. Declare lighting conditions picture was taken - should be a given
2. Frags should be at least 1/2 inch or larger - agreed, this also helps the survivability IMO
3. Price is what the market will bear - price should not be ridiculous
4. Frags should be pest free / iodine dipped ( at the buyer or the seller end ) - Stress would be an issue for shipping but I think it all comes down to the buyers choice in dipping.
5. Frags should be on established bases( sometimes not possible) - For me I'd prefer unmounted but on some pieces it should be on plugs or bases, either way I think frags should be established and healed before being sold, unless its the odd time (ie accidental breaks) it all goes back to the survivability rate.
6. Return policy up to the seller / buyer - agreed on the communication is key idea and if I knew the person I would be more keen on giving another frag should the original have problems.
7, Picture of the mother colony if possible - would be appreciated but this point for me would not be a deal breaker, I'd rather see the actual frag than the colony.
8. Disclosure if picture was "photoshopped" - should be a given.

The biggest point I see in selling frags is just to keep "backups" of your colonies and in the end I think it helps protect the wild colonies and your own. If something should happen to your tank (ie crash, flood, pests etc) and you lost your most prized piece I would hope that there would be someone out there with a frag thats able to replace your colony. I would argue that it probably won't bring profit unless done on a large scale and in the end I believe helping others whether it'd be a neat coral or helping a beginner out in return some of them will help you out when you need it. Of course there will be people looking to make big bucks selling tiny tiny frags or people that will take advantage of that I don't mind because most of the reefing community in large is quite nice and friendly.

[wickedfrags]

a good read with some useful info for those considering getting into SPS

[fencer]

Guidelines for SPS Frag selling v1.1 is up see top of thread. I have incorporated the thread comments in the document. See first post

[DiverDude]

While I applaud what you're trying to do here (really !), I just can't see this flying. Point-by-point remarks:

1. Good idea but useless unless there is some way of expressing the lighting conditions in a standardized manner and in which people can understand.

2. The size is the size. If someone wants to offer something rare and people are willing to buy it, then that constitutes a market. It might make more sense to simply say that an accurate size measurement should be posted.

3. Price is what the market will bear. Period. Ridiculously priced frags won't sell. If they DO sell, then the price wasn't ridiculous to someone.

4. Sell should declare if they have been dipped. I prefer to dip my own stuff. Dipping prior to shipment would be a bad idea and causes issues of stress/survivability.

5-9 I more or less agree with.

For what it's worth, I might consider refering to this guide as more of a 'code of ethics' since that's really what it's all about.

<dismount soapbox>

The last reefers meeting we talked about some hobbyist selling gudelines for frags. Below are some suggestions. Please feel free to comment and I will compile the ideas:

Guidelines for SPS Frag selling/buying V 1.1

1. Declare lighting conditions picture was taken
- the camera can also make a difference, with white balance
2. Frags should be at least 1/2 inch or larger
- helps the survivability
3. Price is what the market will bear
- guideline for pricing is approximately 1/2-2/3 market value
- price should not be ridiculous
- hobbyist prices should not be over 30.00/Frag...anything over...it better be rare
4. Frags should be pest free / iodine dipped ( at the buyer or the seller end )
- dipped the corals before packaging since this would increase the corals' stress during shipping
5. Frags should be on established bases( sometimes not possible)
- frags should be established and healed before being sold
- Coral growing on the plug is a good indication of health
- Sometimes it is not possible to establish growth on the plug...sometimes I frag/mount/sell this is
more a time issue.
- unmounted frags are less stressed
6. Return policy up to the seller / buyer
- agreed on the communication is key idea and if I knew the person I would be more keen on giving
another frag should the original have problems.
- For private buying and selling there is always risk on each side of the fence, and there should always
be an agreement of expectations before the transaction is made.
7. Picture of the mother colony if possible
8. Disclosure if picture was "photoshopped"
9. Buyer beware. ie: you going to buy a frag from a member that has no pics or reputation. Word of mouth is probably the best thing.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

You could have just summed this up in one phrase..."common sense".

Why do private sellers get the short end of the stick so to speak when it comes to selling frags? Especially (unless I am reading this wrong) how you mention frags cannot be over a certain price. Ridiculous. IMO frags from a private seller should be worth more than a stores in most cases. I have never understood how livestock depreciates so much in our aquariums.

Just let people sell and make deals among themselves. If these things are important to you then ask them of the seller. If they are important to the seller then he can implement them.

[fencer]

Would you pay 50.00 for a 1" frag? if you are I have plenty to sell to you

I think hobbyist should get a price break amongst their peers. We know what we've sunk into this hobby/addiction. Sharing the wealth is not a bad thing. The difference is that a store has to make a profit to survive. A hobbyist makes money to cover supplies or utilities if they are lucky. The commercial guys sell good product and I support them when I can

[Zoaelite]

You could have just summed this up in one phrase..."common sense".

Why do private sellers get the short end of the stick so to speak when it comes to selling frags? Especially (unless I am reading this wrong) how you mention frags cannot be over a certain price. Ridiculous. IMO frags from a private seller should be worth more than a stores in most cases. I have never understood how livestock depreciates so much in our aquariums.

Just let people sell and make deals among themselves. If these things are important to you then ask them of the seller. If they are important to the seller then he can implement them.

+1 There is no way to circumvent the supply demand aspect of the market, if you are making these as a guideline for people to follow I see this failing very fast (As Tony stated due to lack of enforcement). Besides, If I spend $250.00 on a chalice frag that has a single eye I'm not going to charge $30.00 for a frag just to be "Nice". If no one buys the frag I'm selling for $250.00 then the price will be lowered until someone will take it, this is basic supply and demand or as Green stated "Common sence".

It would be like posting on a luxury car forum that you think all cars sold from individual seller to individual seller should be 35-50% off market price. No one would ever even contemplate that so why would it work here? Supply and demand dictates price because that's what works, if you would like to try and change Capitalism while your at it be my guest :lol:.

[fencer]

These just guidelines not rules...something to think about

Your absolutely right...price is based on what the market will bare

[kien]

A year ago I bought a little 1" frag of something and thought it was the greatest thing. Cheap little piece of SPS to start my collection. My wife took one look at it and said, "WTF?? You bought that little twig for $15? What a rip off!!" :lol:

I like buying skin flaps.. :lol:

[Jeff_]

I think the main point about pricing frags is to be reasonable about it. A 1 eye chalice frag may be worth $250 but keep in mind that it is mostly non limited sps (ie not ORA, Tyrees, GARF Purple Bonsai etc) we are talking about, just colourful pieces without a "special" name. The rare LPS supply is still quite small and theres a substantial demand for pieces and that would justify some of the prices. IMO I don't think its fair to give someone a single polyp and hope it survives for some ridiculous price even if it was well established and personally I wouldn't blow $250 on a single polyp, eye, etc "rare" frag no matter how pretty it is. Livestock doesn't depreciate in our tanks but the point is supporting others in the hobby and keeping the private trade alive by offering pieces at non retail prices.

[fencer]

v1.2 is up

[muck]

You could have just summed this up in one phrase..."common sense".

Why do private sellers get the short end of the stick so to speak when it comes to selling frags? Especially (unless I am reading this wrong) how you mention frags cannot be over a certain price. Ridiculous. IMO frags from a private seller should be worth more than a stores in most cases. I have never understood how livestock depreciates so much in our aquariums.

Just let people sell and make deals among themselves. If these things are important to you then ask them of the seller. If they are important to the seller then he can implement them.

I have to agree with you Justin. Common sense goes a long way.
Personally I think the whole idea of a guideline is "Bunk".

[Madreefer]

i would rate dez a five star seller he was great and helpful. i didnt know him from a hole in the ground and took a chance. now i would gladly piurchace from him any time.

I second this. His order was good and all of the frags I got off of him are doing great. He even sent bonus frags.

[RedCoralEdmonton]

I think people are getting a little too personal with this. We never ment to offend anyone with our discussion, we were basically just throwing around the idea of an "industry standard" for frags, the most important to me being size, i hate the idea of ordering a frag from a business/private seller online and getting a 1/4" or less piece of coral, whereas on most sites, the seller doesnt tell the size or exagerates it. It doesnt happen often but it does happen, and it leaves a bad taste to the buyer in most cases....

This was never meant to be a "rule book" but was mainly put up on here to start a discussion and include more then just the few people that were at the reef meet. All ideas are welcome, more constructive the better!

Steve

[Atomikk]

My rules:

1. honesty is #1
2. frag prices depend on demand x size/growth/species/color... it is a tricky pony and
3. keep your corals pest free and quarantine if you can