PDA

View Full Version : SPS Growth Puzzle


Aquattro
06-24-2010, 05:23 PM
So 2 + years into my tank, which is using most of the equipment from my old setup, my SPS have barely grown at all. Colors are nice, and I have polyp extension, but no growth. Some pieces have done nothing but encrust ( a lot!!). The best growth I've had is about 2 to 4 inches on some millies (in 2 years) and some pieces, nothing at all.
I'm all out of ideas, and at this point in the economy selling it seems useless, so I'm soliciting any and all ideas on what might be the problem.

Only thing I havent' done is replace the rock, which might be next. All corals are healthy, clams are good and growing, LPS doing well. I've treated for red bugs and inspected under a scope for any other pests. Temp is about 78-79, 2 x 400w at 7 hours/day. Water changes every month, sometimes use zeo, sometimes slack off, no diff either way. Ca was 390 last test, alk about 9. Don't usually check anything else, but never have. Run a big ER skimmer, tried a filter sock, and no sock, no diff again. I have a remote sump with flex PVC returning from basement, this is a difference from my old system that did well.
No sand in tank, lots of flow. Used Zeo salt for last year, switched back to IO for next water change.
Tank is 90g, sump is 125, total water volume 140g.

This is a big change from my previous 10 years of SPS keeping, where I had trouble keeping up with trimming frags out..

Anyone have any thoughts on what I might try next?

globaldesigns
06-24-2010, 05:25 PM
What type of bulbs are you using (Manufacturer)? Are they 10K, 14K or 20K?

I find Ushio and Geissman bulbs to be the best, and I use 10K for highest/optimal growth.

chris88
06-24-2010, 05:26 PM
what kind of lighting? up your water changes and bring your calcium and mag up. I find growth accelerates for me when my cal is 440ppm and my mag is 1400ppm. Also feeding helps so much i terms of growth but sometimes can be detremental to the color of the corals because of the increased nutrients.

Aquattro
06-24-2010, 05:28 PM
Bulbs are AquaConnect 14k, one blew yesterday and I'll be switching to Radium, which I used for years and liked. The tank is a shallow 90, so the reduced output of the radiums should still be sufficient.

Aquattro
06-24-2010, 05:31 PM
what kind of lighting? up your water changes and bring your calcium and mag up. I find growth accelerates for me when my cal is 440ppm and my mag is 1400ppm. Also feeding helps so much i terms of growth but sometimes can be detremental to the color of the corals because of the increased nutrients.

Lighting above. I've found that anything over 380 for Ca is fine, as long as it's maintained. I use a big a$$ Ca reactor that keeps it about 400. I don't worry about Mg, but did test it a couple of times and it was 1400ish. My previous setup used IO and no supplements other than reactor.
I never found feeding to help or hinder, other than brown out the corals if I over did it. I can see feeding helping a bit, but this I think is more serious. For example, I have a frag that I mounted 2 years ago, 2 inches long. It encrusted, and nothing since. That's just wrong :)

shrimpchips
06-24-2010, 05:44 PM
How far off are the lights? Maybe you're getting some photoinhibition going on?

chris88
06-24-2010, 05:54 PM
it's not the lighting. I get 1-2 inches of growth in my sps per month. I can only tell you what works for me. Calcium above 420ppm and if i dont add mag often then growth stops. IO salt hasa very low mag and coraline algae just rapes the stuff. I feed with coral frenzy and it really does help for growth. I feed once a week maybe twice if i am bored. Its not going to be a one thing fix, its probably a mix a few things added together that is hampering growth.

lorenz0
06-24-2010, 05:58 PM
What type of corals are we talking about? like are they maricultured corals or frags from someone else?

from my experience, i won't be buying to many maricultured corals anymore. mostly because of the fact that they just don't grow for me compared to frags from snappy, fishytime, wickedfrags and so on. All they did was encrust and maybe got an inche out of one in a year while my frags are now colony size on 6-8 months.

Aquattro
06-24-2010, 06:35 PM
How far off are the lights? Maybe you're getting some photoinhibition going on?

I thought that might be happening, so swapped in a set of used radiums for 2 months, no change.

Aquattro
06-24-2010, 06:38 PM
What type of corals are we talking about? like are they maricultured corals or frags from someone else?

.

I've got frags from Christy, Snappy, Denis, etc, all the same. And not species specific. My birdsnest has only grown slightly, where compared to the same coral in a previous tank it grew like crazy. My caps are not too bad, some growth, but not what should be for 2 years. Even digitata is slow growing.

muck
06-24-2010, 06:42 PM
Come on Brad... Warez da Photos Man.

Aquattro
06-24-2010, 06:46 PM
Come on Brad... Warez da Photos Man.

Seriously, I can't stand to even take pics!! I posted one last year, it's still the same :)

I'm close to tearing down, cleaning everything, getting new rock and undertank sump and then re-add my frags. Some are not doing too terrible, but compared to what I used to get, it's pretty sad...

What gets me is I'm doing all I used to do with the same equipment, just different tank/sump and plumbing. This makes me think maybe contamination?? I dunno, it's frustrating...

PoonTang
06-24-2010, 07:08 PM
Brad
Interestingly enough I have been reading alot about coral growth etc lately due to my own coral issues. Growth is directly related to food and not light. Light will keep them alive but they wont grow much. Food is where they get all of their extra energy from that allows them to grow. The most important food item seems to be zooplankton and without a sandbed you would have much less of it in your tank. Without a sandbed tho you should be able to feed the hell out of your tank without running into nutrient issues.
I dont know what to suggest for food for you, I havnt got that far yet :)

Nebthet
06-24-2010, 08:36 PM
I would suggest to raise you calcium (if your Mag remains 1400 do that, but perhaps suppliment a little once a week to help. Tests can be off).
Also use something like CoralVite and Coral Accel once to twice a week about two to three hours after lights out or first thing in the morning when polyps extension on your sps should be at it full extent.

When I started doing this with my SPS (and I use tapwater in my tank) I finally saw growth in my frags that had no growth for a year, not even encrusting. Now all my sps grow nicely.

Aquattro
06-24-2010, 09:20 PM
While the food thing makes sense, somewhat, I've never fed and had up to 3 inches growth per month for years in my old tank (bare bottom). But, I'll try that and see what happens.
Keep it coming :)

chris88
06-24-2010, 09:42 PM
sometimes corals will eat bacteria or fish waster or even things we can't see in the water column. Problem is we skim the **** out of tanks taking most of this away. Thats why things like coral frenzy help so much. +1 on the feeding all way but make sure you spot feed and dont over do it.

Jason McK
06-24-2010, 09:47 PM
I know you really like the flow have you trying dialing down your flow at all? Also have you ever tried clipping a tip of a piece. I've seen really fast growth from areas that I have fraged. To the point that the fragged branch out grew a non-fraged branch

J

marie
06-24-2010, 09:49 PM
What you really need are some Powell River grade "A" red bugs



.....I have lots if you want some :razz:

Aquattro
06-24-2010, 10:14 PM
Jason, yes, I've taken small tips off of colonies and mounted them, nothing at all. I haven't dialed back the flow, but it's not crazy like I used to use, just 2 smaller streams (6060) and about 500gph from return line, maybe.
I might try that too though, and maybe then I could add sand -lol

Marie, thanks, had my own, had to treat a couple of months ago.

shrimpchips
06-25-2010, 12:39 AM
How many fish? There have been a lot of people remarking that after getting more fish, their SPS growth took off. Maybe the food aimed at the coral isn't actually doing anything, but food from fish waste will?

Canadian
06-25-2010, 12:40 AM
Hey, have you considered raising your Ca? I heard that might do it :wink:

I had similar problems last year Brad and did end up swapping out most of the LR as you've alluded to. I noticed a burst of growth but then it dwindled down again. I later dropped my flow rate and found that lead to a burst of growth but wasn't sustained either. I've since moved and am dealing with typical "new tank" type symptoms including browning out and slowed growth.

Have you considered changing to LED lighting? I think that's what the cool kids are using these days. Sounds trendy and trendy is always good :wink:

Sebae again
06-25-2010, 02:20 AM
Just my opinion but it is hard to believe that you do not need to ad Mg.Have you tried another test kit?

fishoholic
06-25-2010, 03:40 AM
I don't know much about sps but I do know others that do. Wayne (fencer) tells me you have to have fish poo for good growth and Dez told me that he dumps cups of Mg. in his tank per week and we all know his sps grow like crazy. So make sure you have some fish and start a Mg. IV :noidea: Might help.

chris88
06-25-2010, 03:41 AM
Like i said previously mag is very important and often overlooked!

daniella3d
06-25-2010, 04:02 AM
Food from fish waste?? ain't that basicanly nitrates at the end? I thought nitrates was actualy preventing sps from growing?? My bioload is extremely low with only 2 mandarins fish in a 75 gallons and I still see great growth in my sps. NO need to add more fish.

I feed coral frenzy and ReefRoids and my sps grow like crazy. I could swear I see new growth each day on one of them. I do feed a lot though (each day) because I also have filter feeders, but I have no nitrates and phosphates.

I would suggest you to try reefroids and coral frenzy and also if you can get the zeovit amino acids and coral vitalizer you will probably see some major improvement.

Your calcium is low as many other people have mentioned here.


How many fish? There have been a lot of people remarking that after getting more fish, their SPS growth took off. Maybe the food aimed at the coral isn't actually doing anything, but food from fish waste will?

Aquattro
06-25-2010, 04:03 AM
How many fish? There have been a lot of people remarking that after getting more fish, their SPS growth took off. Maybe the food aimed at the coral isn't actually doing anything, but food from fish waste will?

That is a consideration, I have very few fish. I think I have a school of damsels in the sump, but I have to empty it to find out. I'm also skimpy on food, so I'll try feeding the fish more.

Aquattro
06-25-2010, 04:04 AM
Have you considered changing to LED lighting? I think that's what the cool kids are using these days. Sounds trendy and trendy is always good :wink:

Nah, you know me Andrew, MH all the way!!

Aquattro
06-25-2010, 04:07 AM
Just my opinion but it is hard to believe that you do not need to ad Mg.Have you tried another test kit?

My stance on Mg comes from 8 years running a tank where the acros grew too fast. I never added anything, and nobody I know did either. The whole Mg trend has been the last couple of years, and while it may not be bad, it's never been needed before. That being said, I've had it tested several times and it's always near 1400.

I'll dig up an old photo to show what I used to get, doing the same thing I do now...

Aquattro
06-25-2010, 04:13 AM
Here is an old pic of my last setup, this is the type of growth I got in 2 years. Not anything like I see now. And really not doing anything different, feeding, Mg, etc...

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd101/reef_raf/fulljune.jpg

Sebae again
06-25-2010, 04:45 AM
That looks great! Do you think the sand bed had something to do with it or the city has added something to the water supply?

marie
06-25-2010, 05:04 AM
Food from fish waste?? ain't that basicanly nitrates at the end? I thought nitrates was actualy preventing sps from growing?? My bioload is extremely low with only 2 mandarins fish in a 75 gallons and I still see great growth in my sps. NO need to add more fish.

I feed coral frenzy and ReefRoids and my sps grow like crazy. I could swear I see new growth each day on one of them. I do feed a lot though (each day) because I also have filter feeders, but I have no nitrates and phosphates.

I would suggest you to try reefroids and coral frenzy and also if you can get the zeovit amino acids and coral vitalizer you will probably see some major improvement.

Your calcium is low as many other people have mentioned here.

Actually corals do need a certain amount of nitrates for their growth and they will even use some phosphates but fish poo isn't just nitrates it is a food source for many organisms in your tank


My calcium is chronically low, around 360 and occasionally down to 320-340 and I have fantastic growth so I don't think that's it (although I do notice things don't look quite right when the cal is down at 320)

lastlight
06-25-2010, 05:14 AM
I've noticed my mg drops a lot in just a week. like 100ppm. I add more of the brs mg than the other 2 (volume). Best of luck hope you sort it out your tank was a beauty.

Dez
06-25-2010, 05:26 AM
I have 36 fish in a 150 gallon display :redface: They all get along and my sps grow well..... maybe the fish poop is good. I try to feed about 4 times a day.

Aquattro
06-25-2010, 05:55 AM
My calcium is chronically low, around 360 and occasionally down to 320-340 and I have fantastic growth so I don't think that's it (although I do notice things don't look quite right when the cal is down at 320)

Ya, my Ca is good, I've always kept it around 390 -410. Anything over 360-370 is fine in a stable system, the advantage of having at 420 or higher is just as a buffer zone incase of a spike downwards.

I could probably feed the fish more, but again, I don't think that's a major contributor. I recall one member that used to come here had one of the nicest tanks ever, and he almost never fed his 3 or so fish. No supplements for the corals either....

Doug
06-25-2010, 10:27 AM
I remember those pics Brad. It was an outstanding sps tank for sure and obvious you knew what you were doing. I for sure have no answer, as I cant even keep them alive anymore. So my hats of to those that can.

I cant see older rock holding back growth, esp. with the use of gfo or whatever the heck new fangled product we use now.

fencer
06-25-2010, 02:21 PM
This is an interesting thread.
1. Lighting-intensity is important - related to PAR especially when lighting is 15000k or higher
2. Flow - I used to think high flow is important, but now I am of the opinion waveboxes are the type of high energy flow you want not the ones generated by powerheads (vortechs can also give you this type of wave)
3. Internal recirc - yes, the more dead spots you can eliminate the better -I was convinced by Dez's tank
4. Sandbeds - yes, as long as you have critters to sift it
5. Maturity of the tank-definitely yes - a year or more - balanced biotopes take that long if not longer
6. Fish poop(not alot required) - yes they provide food for the bottom chain feeders
7. Water Quality - yes, 10% change out, carbon etc
8. Ca/Mg - chronic low numbers are indicative of consumption in well established SPS tanks...That is why Dez has been known to unload dump trucks of additives in the tank
9. Ultralith or Zeo - work way better in balanced tanks and you don't have to have the full blown product line to use these products
10. pH/Alk - 7.8 / 8 dKH
11. Other supplements - amino acids yes, use other products if they give you peace of mind and they nuke your tank
12. Salt - find a salt you like - a very expensive salt does not equate to a better tank

Aquattro
06-25-2010, 03:37 PM
Fencer, agreed, and all my parameters are there for success. While I would prefer a wavebox, my tank won't work with one so I'm stuck with Tunzes. However, I've always used them, and bigger ones, with great results. I've used both sand and barebottom, both equally well for growth.

My approach is to try and find what's different this time around. I use a different RO membrane, it's been a constant (prolly needs replacing now). I also have about 30' of flex pvc tubing, which I've never used. Sump is new to my system, maybe it had something in it?
Tank is new, but it was used and had a successful reef in it. All other equipment is my old (successful) stuff.
My photoperiod was reduced to 6 hours/day, I've increased it, but 6 hours of 400w should suffice. But I've increased it just in case.
I feed PE mysis and pellets, just like always.

I've used zeo and not used zeo (full system), with only an increase in color.
I use carbon, 1 cup/month
My default levels are good, and doing bi-weekly water changes should more than keep up with consumption.
I have to say that I have better colors now than I ever did in my old tanks, I'd just like to see it fill in a bit :)

Lance
06-25-2010, 04:54 PM
Brad, you seem to have everything covered as far as I can see. Parameters are fine, no pests, sufficient lighting and flow. :noidea: The only thing left to look at IMO is the source water. Is it possible Victoria has changed something in the water supply?

Aquattro
06-25-2010, 05:09 PM
Brad, you seem to have everything covered as far as I can see. Parameters are fine, no pests, sufficient lighting and flow. :noidea: The only thing left to look at IMO is the source water. Is it possible Victoria has changed something in the water supply?

Lance, I'm wondering if it's something with my RO unit. It is a new membrane that I've been using for the entire time. I'm going to swap it out, 'cause it's prolly time anyway :)

PoonTang
06-25-2010, 05:36 PM
Lance, I'm wondering if it's something with my RO unit. It is a new membrane that I've been using for the entire time. I'm going to swap it out, 'cause it's prolly time anyway :)

What do your TDS read? and if your not having algae issues then save your money and spend it on something else. :)

Aquattro
06-25-2010, 05:56 PM
What do your TDS read? and if your not having algae issues then save your money and spend it on something else. :)

Last I checked, it was 2. And with the crap I see in the prefilter, I'll keep using RO :)

PoonTang
06-25-2010, 09:27 PM
I get a reading of 2 after my membrane and a reading of 0 after my di stage. It's suprising how temperature sensitive your membrane is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

StirCrazy
06-26-2010, 02:48 PM
Brad
Interestingly enough I have been reading alot about coral growth etc lately due to my own coral issues. Growth is directly related to food and not light. Light will keep them alive but they wont grow much. Food is where they get all of their extra energy from that allows them to grow. The most important food item seems to be zooplankton and without a sandbed you would have much less of it in your tank. Without a sandbed tho you should be able to feed the hell out of your tank without running into nutrient issues.


Now that just don't ,make sence seeing that corals have little algae that live inside them and convert light energy into food for the coral. the only food that went into my tank for 7 years was fish food and it was a very heavily skimmed, bare bottom tank. so basicly a very low nutrent high light envioirment. I think all these "coral additives" are just a get rich quick scam myself, but hey its your money.

Ok, so Ca is fine, not low, for some reason people think you need over 400 Ca in this hobby which isn't true. once you get over 420 you actualy start slowing down coral growth.

Brad, borrow a Mg test kit off some one and test your damn Mg. also what are you Nitrates/nitrites and phosphates. the later two will stop groth in a heart beat if they have a little to much

Steve

shrimpchips
06-26-2010, 07:09 PM
Do you have access to another system? Have you tried taking a frag out to a new system and see how it does?

Aquattro
06-26-2010, 08:54 PM
Do you have access to another system? Have you tried taking a frag out to a new system and see how it does?

I've given some frags to Tyler W. as well as have frags from others that he also has, so I'll check with him. But I suspect they're doing fine. Frags from Snappy are doing well in other tanks locally, just not mine.

shrimpchips
06-26-2010, 09:53 PM
Any stray voltage?

Aquattro
06-26-2010, 10:58 PM
Any stray voltage?

Not that I can feel with my hand :)

StirCrazy
06-27-2010, 02:12 AM
Not that I can feel with my hand :)

try it by holding the return line with your left hand, stand on your right foot, and stick your tongue in the water.:wink:

Aquattro
06-27-2010, 04:09 AM
try it by holding the return line with your left hand, stand on your right foot, and stick your tongue in the water.:wink:

Like I could pull that off without falling in!!

Doug
06-27-2010, 01:37 PM
try it by holding the return line with your left hand, stand on your right foot, and stick your tongue in the water.:wink:

Or like me, put your head close to the halide reflector and then stick your hand in the water and see if an arc forms between your forehead and the reflector. :rofl:

And as I cant keep acro,s alive, I have no advice on why they dont grow. They grew fine in my 90g with a pair of 250,s but not with T-5,s. However when I was laid up, the frags I had kept were in my 20g with cheap T-5,s and all though browned out, grew well. I,m assuming because the nutrients levels were increased, from the lack of filtration, {no skimmer}.

I have done things the same and had failure and visa versa. So who the hell knows. Many who have lost their sps, seem to have absolutely no explanation for it. You seem to be doing the exact same as before, but must be some little thing thats not the same, that affects the growth of your corals. Esp. with someone of your experience.

One_Divided
06-28-2010, 01:20 AM
Hey Brad, I recently added more fish and started dosing MG every once in a while. I've really noticed growth take off and pigments deepen in the last 2-3 months.. When was the last time you checked MG? I have a test kit if you'd like me to bring it over some time.. I know it's one of the more expensive ones..

Skimmerking
06-28-2010, 02:18 AM
I agree with divided I started to add more Magnesium and the SPS when I had them were growing fast.

I kept my mag at 1450

Aquattro
07-02-2010, 08:38 PM
Ok, update and observations..

pH - 8.0
Mg - 1350ish
NO3 - non detectable
PO4 - 0.04
Ca - 450
Alk - 4.0

Ca and Alk are a touch high, but not enough to affect things and in fact are the values I used for years with great growth.

I notice that I have to clean precipitate from my pumps and power heads every 3 months. Any loose sand in my sump is solidified. Even my mesh bag with 1c of carbon had solidified.
Something is whacked with the chemistry in the tank, and not sure what.

Anyone have any experience with precipitation? I've added a small tray of sand to my sump to see if and how long it takes to solidify.

My previous sandbed turned into a slab of concrete that I removed in large sheets, some I couldn't even break up by hand.
WhenI ran a phosban reactor, even that media solidified.

Hate this freakin' tank!!

christyf5
07-02-2010, 09:45 PM
I had a problem with sandbed clumping a many years ago when I was using kalkwasser. What reading I did indicated it was either precipitation or high levels of bacteria aggregating the sand together. I stopped using the kalk and broke up the sandbed, I don't remember where it went from there though as I likely had other issues at the time. There is a "test" for this by which you put a clump of sand in bleach. If it falls apart its bacteria, if not its precipitation.

I find it odd that every type of media clumps though, something odd is definitely going on in there.

I'm just working my way through this, maybe have a look and see if anything fits?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1864522

Aquattro
07-02-2010, 09:56 PM
Christy, I did the bleach test 2 years ago, it didn't break up at all. I could tell it wasn't a bacterial matrix holding it together, I could drop it and the slab wouldn't break :)
I have to scrap the inside of my sump walls, and even the PVC parts of my zeo reactor were completely white. Pretty sure this has something to do with the growth problem, just not sure what...

I used kalk for a while last year, then stopped and put my Ca reactor back online, no change. Not even sure where to look anymore. I had to just post on that "other" site for help :)

Sebae again
07-02-2010, 10:49 PM
I noticed when I ran co2 24/7 my sand bed would solidify. Read somewere that mg has to be a minimum of 1300 or the corals can't use up the calcium as the proper chemical ratio is required for this to take place.With your calcium on the high side maybe try bumping up your mg a bit. I've run mg as high as 1500 and alk at 11 and had the best growth. Your alk is way to low.

Aquattro
07-02-2010, 10:51 PM
I noticed when I ran co2 24/7 my sand bed would solidify.

The CO2 only got added after the first year.

Sebae again
07-02-2010, 10:53 PM
Your alk is way too low.

Canadian
07-02-2010, 10:55 PM
Your alk is way too low.

Not if he's reporting it in meq/L

Aquattro
07-02-2010, 11:00 PM
Not if he's reporting it in meq/L

Right. Which puts it a bit on the high side :)

Doug
07-02-2010, 11:12 PM
I had to just post on that "other" site for help :)


Nooooooooooo. Say its not so Brad. :lol:

My experience with precipitate,

When I lived in the country, on well water and had my large tanks, I had really bad precipitate. And my sps never grew, as a matter of fact they ended up bleaching, which I blamed on my 400w Radiums.

That had to do with mixing the IO salt wrong and if you remember the problem they had with high alk. That combined with the high alk. in my well water, which I never measured until it was to late.

Also the combination I use with my IO salt now, by mixing in an app. amount of magnesium and a little calcium, prevents any precip. as well as brings the water up to proper levels.

Not sure what you can take from all that, as I believe you use a different salt but the reference to adding some magnesium perhaps??? Although your level seems fine.

I had stupid precipitation everywhere in my 225g. Tank, pumps, you name it. I have not had any since. At that house I used ro BUT not DI behind it, which would have helped my alkalinity problem.

Since adding magnesium to my salt mix for water changes, I have never had a spot of precipitate. Not to mention I also run DI to but on city water in which the alk. is not bad anyways.

Hope something in there may help. :noidea:

Aquattro
07-02-2010, 11:26 PM
Doug, it's ridiculous!! My streams actually lock up every 3 months from it. I'm actually thinking of trying tap water, just to remove the RO unit out of the equation! My corals are doing well, color wise, just not actually growing much. I get some, but jeez, compared to what I used to get, it's getting silly.

Sebae again
07-02-2010, 11:28 PM
Are you using a Salifert alk test kit?

Doug
07-02-2010, 11:29 PM
Yes, my streams were bad there also. I had to clean the precip. from them on a regular basis. Esp. around that bushing. Rodger told me to run my calcium lower but I assume then it was the combination of all the mention problems.

Aquattro
07-02-2010, 11:30 PM
Are you using a Salifert alk test kit?

yes, 2 different kits..

Sebae again
07-02-2010, 11:37 PM
I heard some people had issues with Salifert Alk test kits.

Aquattro
07-02-2010, 11:40 PM
I heard some people had issues with Salifert Alk test kits.

Possibly, but 2 kits gave the same reading, and I can't see them being more than 10% off either direction, neither case would give me these (non) results in growth. However, the current alk is a bit higher than usual, just because I haven't watched it. It's typicaly been about 20% lower, Ca has generally been no higher than 400, so it too is a bit high now, but still not "out of range" for growth.

littlesilvermax
07-09-2010, 06:54 AM
I used to get major precip, but after adding HUGE amounts of magnesium it went away.

I really don't like magnesium to get below 1380 or so, and unfortunately test kits accuracy is not that great IMO.

The whole reason I got into selling magnesium was seeing how much it would cost over the course of year at the amount of Seachem Mag I was using.

lastlight
07-09-2010, 07:34 AM
Sorry I can't help being such a noob. But it blows my mind that a sandbed can solidify to the point where you can't break it up! How long did that take to happen? You had creatures sifting while this occurred?

Aquattro
07-09-2010, 02:06 PM
Sorry I can't help being such a noob. But it blows my mind that a sandbed can solidify to the point where you can't break it up! How long did that take to happen? You had creatures sifting while this occurred?

Brett, as best I can tell, it took a few months. I had the usual compliment of critters, but no help. I've read about this kind of thing, but never actually saw it. I couldn't believe how hard the slabs were! Sand actually bonded to the bottom of rocks and I had to chisel it off with a knife.

Aquattro
07-09-2010, 02:08 PM
I used to get major precip, but after adding HUGE amounts of magnesium it went away.
.

What gets me, is when did Mg start becoming a supplement? 10 years ago nobody even heard of dosing, and there were a lot of awesome tanks out there. And for me, I guess my levels measure fine due to the large Ca reactor I run. But I've never dosed and never had a need to...

christyf5
07-09-2010, 04:06 PM
lol are you shaking your fist as you say this, old man? :razz:

I agree tho, 10 years ago there were a lot of nice tanks out there that to my knowledge, weren't dosing magnesium. However, my tank wasn't one of them and since dosing magnesium (amongst other things), now it is :wink:

Have you ever thought about having your water completely tested? I don't know if that would help but it might shed some light on things.

http://www.aquariumwatertesting.com/

I thought there was a canadian version of that company but I can't seem to find it.

reefermadness
07-09-2010, 05:39 PM
The canadian version of aquarium water testing is out of business.

How are you checking P04 and NO3?

Something is fishy.....I had the same thing on my old 90g BB tank. My N03 was 20-40ppm.....algae didnt grow though and p04 was fine using a high sensitivity merk kit.

I think my problem was I let the detrituis build up in the bottom and around the rocks of my tank causing a NO3 problem. With a BB tank you really need to keep it clean.

Aquattro
07-09-2010, 09:10 PM
My NO3 is undetectable, and the bottom is really clean. I clean under the rock work with a powerhead. PO4 measured with Salifert and a meter. Both well into acceptable. Even Mg was 1350, so that's not the problem.

Aquattro
07-09-2010, 09:12 PM
However, my tank wasn't one of them and since dosing magnesium (amongst other things), now it is :wink:


Christy, aren't you running a Ca reactor? Mine is apparently keeping my levels in mid 1300's.....

Doug
07-10-2010, 12:01 AM
What gets me, is when did Mg start becoming a supplement? 10 years ago nobody even heard of dosing, and there were a lot of awesome tanks out there. And for me, I guess my levels measure fine due to the large Ca reactor I run. But I've never dosed and never had a need to...

Perhaps the salt we used then, even the same brand had enough in it??

I cant see you having a magnesium problem if running a co2 reactor. When I did, using CaribSea media, my mag was always over 1300.

On the other hand, your co2 reactor, better named alkalinity reactor as you know, may be contributing to your calcification problem. Just a thought.

Canadian
07-10-2010, 12:31 AM
I know you've been back and forth with sand in the past but I'm going to speculate that if you add sand and give it some time you'll find an uptick in your growth rate. This is not to say that you can't have great growth and color in a BB tank but that in your present case it may help. The substrate could theoretically allow for increased zooplankton in the water column and thereby food for the corals. Some substrate will also provide surface area for the precipitate you are reporting having problems with in your pumps. If you notice some clumping you can stir the sand manually and replace a little with your water changes a la Steve Weast.

On the one hand I like substrate because it reflects some light and provides a "finish" to the tank and on the other I hate it because it really dictates my flow pattern with a higher flow tank. But in the end it's just a few hours of work to remove it if you really hate it. And it gets more fun every time you do it ;) (I've now been back and forth from SSB to BB 4 times in the last 2 years).

Aquattro
07-10-2010, 01:55 AM
On the other hand, your co2 reactor, better named alkalinity reactor as you know, may be contributing to your calcification problem. Just a thought.

No, the reactor was offline when the sand bed seized up

Aquattro
07-10-2010, 01:57 AM
Andrew, I wanted sand for that "finished" look, but sand is also a sink for crap and that wories me. While I'm comparing my old tank to new though, the old did have sand......

StirCrazy
07-10-2010, 02:58 PM
What gets me, is when did Mg start becoming a supplement? 10 years ago nobody even heard of dosing, and there were a lot of awesome tanks out there. And for me, I guess my levels measure fine due to the large Ca reactor I run. But I've never dosed and never had a need to...

9 years ago I was measuting and adding Mg as nessasary.

Steve

christyf5
07-10-2010, 04:12 PM
Christy, aren't you running a Ca reactor? Mine is apparently keeping my levels in mid 1300's.....

no my reactor was giving me issues and I was going through CO2 too quickly so I decided to jump on the automatic doser bandwagon a couple years ago. I haven't had growth like this, well, ever and all the parameters are steady (except for alk which I am having a hell of a time with).

Canadian
07-10-2010, 04:42 PM
9 years ago I was measuting and adding Mg as nessasary.

Steve

Yeah Steve started it. Blame it on him. ;)

StirCrazy
07-11-2010, 03:03 AM
Yeah Steve started it. Blame it on him. ;)

Shhh. don't say that to loud.. :mrgreen:

I wouldn't say I started it as people were already doing it as there were test kits available, I think I was just ahead of the bell curve up here though. :wink:

Steve

Canadian
07-11-2010, 03:05 AM
It really does come down to good marketing. In '99 I was dosing Mg in my reef because Seachem had a test kit and sold the supplement. I had no idea why I was dosing it but Seachem said I should, so I did.

StirCrazy
07-11-2010, 03:29 AM
It really does come down to good marketing. In '99 I was dosing Mg in my reef because Seachem had a test kit and sold the supplement. I had no idea why I was dosing it but Seachem said I should, so I did.

mostlikly, for me it was problems with maintaining my Ca at 380-400 in 2001. my alk was good but I couldn't keep my Ca over 200 no matter how hard I ran my Ca reactor. about 3 days of research on oversea sites and some papers I found on US club boards brought me up to speed on some new tank syndroms. especialy problems with Mg levels in new tanks with DSB's (which were also the new rave and craze about that time) in the end it was a mg level of 800 which was the root of all my problems. this was also about the same time salt companies started to reduce the amount of Mg in there mixes.

Steve

MitchM
08-29-2010, 01:17 PM
Brad, are you any closer to solving your puzzle?

Mitch