A Polychaete Word of Caution

[Zoaelite]

For you major zoa collectors out there I have a word of caution;

Well for the longest time I have had various zoa's go from healthy and thriving to melted stumps over the period of a few days. At first I thought it was water parameters, possible ALK swings so I purchased a dosing system to alleviate this. After witnessing no change and actually watching more colonies melt I pointed the finger at possibly high phosphates (I can never tell with my API test kit). I removed my TLF Phosban reactor when I purchased my Vertex NP Biopellet reactor so this conclusion made sense except zoa's usually have a good resilience to water quality fluctuations.

Another 2 weeks pass after I reset up my TLF Phosban reactor (while also upgrading my skimmer) and within the span of 3 days I lost 2 of my favorite colonies to the same thing. The oral disk looks perfectly fine but the coenenchyme (The actual base portion of the zoa) and the stalk are thinned all around. The zoas show this for a day or two then eject all of there zooxanthellae, melting themselves in the process.

Now I have always thought of bristle worms as harmless scavengers that clean my sand bed until I bought a blue light and staked out my tank 3 hours after I turn the lights off. I was shocked to say the least at the astronomical number of Bristle worms living between and around the polyps at night time. After removing a rock and pulling the worms off I tooth and combed it to find 100's of little bristles actually stuck into the zoas.

Now if a bristle worm sting causes my fingers to swell up and gives me a headache for 2 days I can imagine what it does to a tiny little polyp. So my solution, like any good reefer I went out and bought another tank to tie into the main system specifically for zoas. (Oh god my poor Visa card)

I will grab photos when I head home tonight but a big thanks to Jesse for letting me pick up his tank as soon as he did (He actually moved all of his livestock to a different system just for me). After Iodine dipping and thoroughly inspecting all 70 colonies I actually had a BUCKET full of Bristle worms ranging in size from a few mm to over 9" long!

As the dip didn't kill all the worms and as many live inside of the rock I have been keeping a very close eye on the tank at night time removing any remaining stragglers.

So if you are an avid collector of zoas I highly stress quarantine and dipping all of your rocks to ensure there safety. Bristle worms in large populations will cause damage to your colonies, this unfortunately I found out the hard way.
Levi

[Sebae again]

You might be able to keep them under control or eliminate them with a fish.I had a orchid dottyback that ate all my bristle worms.

[naesco]

Zoaelite
I am sorry to see that you are suffering losses especially to a reefer that takes the time to specialize as you have.

But, I think your are giving the bristle worm a bad rap. They are scavengers not predators on coral and zoas. They are an exceptionally benefical scavenger and harmless to reef animals.

I can think of two possibilities.
1. Your zoas are dying from some disease and the bristle worms as scavengers are cleaning up the dead tisse. That is the job they were doing that night.
2. That you do not have brisstle worms but you have bearded fireworms (hermodice carunculata which are predators and love zoas. Thankfully they are very rarely seen in the hobby.

[marie]

Zoaelite
I am sorry to see that you are suffering losses especially to a reefer that takes the time to specialize as you have.

But, I think your are giving the bristle worm a bad rap. They are scavengers not predators on coral and zoas. They are an exceptionally benefical scavenger and harmless to reef animals.

I can think of two possibilities.
1. Your zoas are dying from some disease and the bristle worms as scavengers are cleaning up the dead tisse. That is the job they were doing that night.
2. That you do not have brisstle worms but you have bearded fireworms (hermodice carunculata which are predators and love zoas. Thankfully they are very rarely seen in the hobby.

I had a fireworm once, they do love zoos. I finally spotted it one day with it's mouth completely engulfing the head of a paly....unfortunately I was on the phone at the time and the only thing within my reach was a wooden skewer.


Once you've seen one the differences are obvious, they are very hairy and the bristles break off very easy

[Zoaelite]

I will grab photos tonight when the lights are off to see If anyone can ID them as fireworms, so far so good in the new tank.

Naesco is it possible that the bristle worms are simply irritating the zoas to death? I'm not talking like 2-3 worms per colony @ night I'm talking like 10-12 and a few large ones. The bristles of the worm break of really easy and man do they hurt!

Sebae again I have seen my wrasses eat them during the day but the numbers are far to high to be biologically controlled. Besides all my fish sleep at night, the worms only come out when its pitch black so we have timing issues :lol:.

[Seamazter]

If your dipping the colonies to kill the worms, remember that some do die inside the rock and do not come out.
This will increase your bio-load for quite a long time.
I did this once by drying out alot of rocks and having a huge ammonia swing after adding back the dried out rock again.
Even if one stays inside and dies, your going to see it cause a spike.

[naesco]

I will grab photos tonight when the lights are off to see If anyone can ID them as fireworms, so far so good in the new tank.

Naesco is it possible that the bristle worms are simply irritating the zoas to death? I'm not talking like 2-3 worms per colony @ night I'm talking like 10-12 and a few large ones. The bristles of the worm break of really easy and man do they hurt!

Sebae again I have seen my wrasses eat them during the day but the numbers are far to high to be biologically controlled. Besides all my fish sleep at night, the worms only come out when its pitch black so we have timing issues :lol:.

Zoaelite all of us that have established tanks will have tonnes of bristle worms. They can devour a small dead fish overnight with no trace. What attracts them is dead, decaying tissue or matter.
Most of us have a zoa here and there and if one of them gets sick and dies it is another lost coral with no explanation.
But a specialty tank like yours that is covered in stunning beautiful coloured zoas would allow a disease to spread easily.
Yes it is possible that dead, decaying zoa that attract bristle worms could also cause inadvertent bristle damage to some healthy polyps.
But, the problem is the determining the cause of death and doing something to stop it and not the bristle worms.

If it is disease you will have to be strong and remove most of the polyps in each colony leaving only the guaranteed healthy ones and keep them as far apart from each other.
Look for a chemical or drug solution that you could use as a dip.
Does anyone have any ideas?
If I can find something I will let you know. sorry!

[Zoaelite]

No problem at all you have been a great help! I dipped them in iodine dip while doing the transfer and the polyps that were in distress are looking a little better.

Testing the water right now then I will take photos.

[hillegom]

have you seen any zoa eating nudibranchs ?

[Zoaelite]

have you seen any zoa eating nudibranchs ?

None at all.

[Zoaelite]

Okay water test results:

Salinity- 1.024
Temp- 79.4F
pH- 7.9
Ca- 420ppm
Alk- 8DKH
Mg- 1250ppm
Nitrite- 0ppm
Nitrate- 13ppm
Ammonia- 0ppm
Phosphate- 0ppm

and a few photos:
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4479/p1120249q.jpg (http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1120249q.jpg)

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/7061/p1120285.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1120285.jpg)

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2898/p1120289g.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1120289g.jpg)

[Myka]

I have Zoas do this occasionally too, but they are always new frags. I always put it down to them being some of the more finicky Zoas like Magicians, and Blue Steels. Plus my Filefish was eating them when he was in there. :eek:

[hockey nut]

Very nice setup ZoaElite

You may have a case of zoa pox... it's like chicken pox but for zoas. Palys seem somewhat unaffected by zoa pox. If your zoas are closing up and stay closed and you see very small white spots not many but a couple here and there you probly have zoa pox.

Also as for dipping your zoas, I use flatworm exit. It kills everything not just flat worms. It will get rid of nudis,bristle worms, flatworms, those pesky little white 5 leg starfish etc etc without harming the zoas. When I buy a zoa frag etc I just add a few drops of FE to the water in the bag I bought the zoas in and give it anywhere from 10-20 minutes. Give it a rinse of some tank water and Bam! all is well. As for nudi eggs I use an old toothbrush as it grabs the whole egg sack in one swoop.

Anyhow hope you get it sorted out.

[Zoaelite]

No white spots anywhere, pretty positive of that. Good tip on the flat worm exit though!

[fishytime]

bristle worms are narrower and pointier and have significantly less bristles than the broader and flatter fireworm....they do have bristles right? so not a eucinid worm?(SP?)

[Zoaelite]

bristle worms are narrower and pointier and have significantly less bristles than the broader and flatter fireworm....they do have bristles right? so not a eucinid worm?(SP?)

Everyone that I have seen has bristles but I'm sure there could be a larger eucinid worm hiding in there somewhere. Turning off the lights now will snap some photos shortly.

[StirCrazy]

Zoaelite all of us that have established tanks will have tonnes of bristle worms. They can devour a small dead fish overnight with no trace. What attracts them is dead, decaying tissue or matter.
Most of us have a zoa here and there and if one of them gets sick and dies it is another lost coral with no explanation.
But a specialty tank like yours that is covered in stunning beautiful coloured zoas would allow a disease to spread easily.
Yes it is possible that dead, decaying zoa that attract bristle worms could also cause inadvertent bristle damage to some healthy polyps.
But, the problem is the determining the cause of death and doing something to stop it and not the bristle worms.

If it is disease you will have to be strong and remove most of the polyps in each colony leaving only the guaranteed healthy ones and keep them as far apart from each other.
Look for a chemical or drug solution that you could use as a dip.
Does anyone have any ideas?
If I can find something I will let you know. sorry!

Naesco, you know I am a suported of bristle worms and like tyou there are many benifits to havign them, but there are different types of worms and there is one type that feeds on polyps which zoos are. so it is possable he has 1 or 2 zoo eating worms. I had one very large zoo eater which I just lived with as my tank was a SPS tank and the zoos I did have were ugly.

Steve

[Zoaelite]

Naesco, you know I am a suported of bristle worms and like tyou there are many benifits to havign them, but there are different types of worms and there is one type that feeds on polyps which zoos are. so it is possable he has 1 or 2 zoo eating worms. I had one very large zoo eater which I just lived with as my tank was a SPS tank and the zoos I did have were ugly.

Steve

Didn't snap photos last night as I was a to tired but after a quick glance I appear to have some diversity in the group. None of them look like fireworms, at least from what I can see from google photos. The zoa tank seems to be doing much better, possibly from the dip itself possibly from lack of irritators.

[naesco]

Naesco, you know I am a suported of bristle worms and like tyou there are many benifits to havign them, but there are different types of worms and there is one type that feeds on polyps which zoos are. so it is possable he has 1 or 2 zoo eating worms. I had one very large zoo eater which I just lived with as my tank was a SPS tank and the zoos I did have were ugly.

Steve

Ya agreed. Check my first post, Steve.

[StirCrazy]

Ya agreed. Check my first post, Steve.

missed that one, but there are a couple different ones that eat zoos I would believe, as the one I had didn't look like a fireworm or the one you mentioned above. I think it was rarely seen as zoos didn't used to be that populor but now that they are I think we will see more and more zoo preditors.

Steve

[Zoaelite]

Snapped some photos on my phone of a few more removed from the zoa tank (Have been constantly hand picking the rocks). Ended up grabbing the big one while flipping a rock over so my hand is pretty ****ed off now.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6210/bristle.jpg (http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bristle.jpg)

These are survivors after the dip, 2 nights of staking the zoas out and using a home made trap.

[Seamazter]

I have those same ones.
Itchy burn too i must say, vinegar is supposed to help u can try it and see if it works for you. (i never noticed after trying)
I dont mind those guys, they clean the places my crabs cant go.

[daniella3d]

I have a lot of these worms and they never affected my zoanthids. But I did have problem of zoanthids shrinking to nothing and it was caused by Seachem phosphate remover aluminium based. The shrinking stopped when I removed that stuff although some polyp have yet to recover and they are still tiny bitty but they have stop the shrinking at least.

[StirCrazy]

the one I had that was eating my zoo's wernt red at all, they didn't even look bristily untill you looked real close and its "legs" were bundles of fibers. to me it looked like a centepede from hell :mrgreen: