3 fish dead in 2 weeks and it does not look good for the rest

[sitandwatch]

So I have lost 3 fish in the last two weeks and not sure I can stop the loss of the others.

So far I have lost blond naso, yellow eye kole and yesterday Mr lips(red lip blenny)

Out of the fish remaining
Pink Tail Trigger looks the worst
Clowns second worst
Yellow tang looks ok - some spots
Fairy Wrasse looks ok - some spots
Niger - looks ok but starting to see some issues
Mystery Wrasse - looks great some how

nitrates=0
nitrites=0
phosphate=0
ph = 7.8ish

I am running carbon, and n/p pellets

Since the weekend I have reduced feedings, done a water change, increased flow, did two days and nights of no light.

Added garlic and vitamins to food and directly to the tank

The fish are all still eating mysis, pellets and flakes. Piggy fish(pink tail) loves to eat.

Here are some photos, If you have any suggestions please let me know.

Note quarantine tank is out as I don't have the time and funds to set it up and I think that catching the 7 fish and putting them in a small tank would cause a lot of stress.

Thanks Brian

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=373&pictureid=3227
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=373&pictureid=3228
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=373&pictureid=3229
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=373&pictureid=3230

[kien]

If it appears as tho they are getting a velvetty texture they could have marine velvet. The early stages of preceicable velvet infestation can appear like ich.. Sort of small white spots. If this is the case you may not have any choice but to treat your display tank with copper. Maybe take out most of your live rock and store them in Tupperware while you are treating the fish. If you do use copper whatever live rock and sand you have will have to be thrown out later. A QT tank would be best but you said that's out of the question. If left untreated you will likely lose the rest of the fish, just a matter of time :(

[The Grizz]

for your sake I hope it is not velet but it does look like it might be. I lost 4 fish to it awhile ago including my sweet large lion fish.

[kien]

Also, you did not post the most important parameter, Ammonia. I assume and hope it is zero.

[sitandwatch]

Yup Ammonia is at 0.

And really hoping that its not velet also :cry:

[Chaloupa]

I hate to say, but I also agree...it does sound like and look like Marine Velvet. I lost a tankful to it once....sorry...

[kien]

Sadly, hoping that it isn't velvet isn't going to make it go away. If it looks like velvet and acts like velvet (killing your fish quickly, laboured breathing, etc), I would assume the worst and act quickly and accordingly. Time is probably not on your side with this one. :(

[fishoholic]

Marine velvet is awful I lost 26 out of 34 fish to it last summer. I wouldn't of lost as many if I had acted quicker and sucked it up and set up the qt tank and did the copper treatment earlier. It was a HUGE PITA to catch that many fish out of two three feet tall 230g tanks, then QT them all and treat them in a 120g with copper for 2 weeks (doing 50% water changes every other day, so ammonia wouldn't spike) then let the displays sit empty for another 6 weeks :twised: but If I hadn't did it I would not of saved the eight fish that did make it, one of them being my prized king angel. My only regret is being to lazy not to have done it sooner and have had the possibility to save more of them.

Sorry to be blunt, but as I see it, you either try to treat your fish with copper or watch them all die. Keep in mind your rock and corals will be useless if you treat the display and the fish need the copper treatment for 2 weeks and be out of the display for another 6 weeks (if you didn't treat in the display) before the velvet is gone from the system. If it's not worth it to QT and save what fish you have left & if it's not to late for them already (MV kills fast) then know that you will need to wait 8 weeks after the last fish has died before adding any new fish to the display, this needs to be done in order to not infect the new fish with MV.

FYI even when you start copper treatment fish will still die during the 1st week. It wasn't until the 2 week of treatment before fish stopped dying on me.
Here's a link to my thread when my fish had marine velvet. Lots of good info in it and some graphic pic.'s http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51938&highlight=marine+velvet

[bvlester]

+1 fishoholic I would believe her just read post on MV it is moving... and I sympathies with her for what she went through.

It looks like velvet and the only thing to treat it with is Copper nothing else works freshwater baths while you QT all fish and then the DT has to remain dark and fallow for 3 months to be rid of it. I would QT each fish separately in 10g tanks then the least affected fish have a better chance of making it with out any stress from other fish the QT also has to remain dark. Ambient light from a room for feeding and remember to feed food that has been soaked with garlic and selcon to help with the fish's metabolism and immune system the copper will most likely affect their livers any tangs or angle fish their stomachs bacteria will be killed so they may not do so well.
I wish you all the best with this as you have to be dedicated to help these fish FW dips every day helps a bit. lower the salinity and raise the temp treat with copper. As posted while I was typing water changes. Thats all I can offer you the way of help, other than if they are not going to make it clove oil will put them down. I would dip them first and find out if they have flukes but that would be the worst case of flukes I have seen in a long time.
Bill

[fishoholic]

It looks like velvet and the only thing to treat it with is Copper nothing else works freshwater baths while you QT all fish and then the DT has to remain dark and fallow for 3 months to be rid of it. I would QT each fish separately in 10g tanks then the least affected fish have a better chance of making it with out any stress from other fish the QT also has to remain dark. Ambient light from a room for feeding and remember to feed food that has been soaked with garlic and selcon to help with the fish's metabolism and immune system the copper will most likely affect their livers any tangs or angle fish their stomachs bacteria will be killed so they may not do so well.
I wish you all the best with this as you have to be dedicated to help these fish FW dips every day helps a bit. lower the salinity and raise the temp. Thats all I can offer you the way of help, other than if they are not going to make it clove oil will put them down. I would dip them first and find out if they have flukes but that would be the worst case of flukes I have seen in a long time.
Bill

Agreed about the FW dips. It wasn't until close to the 2nd week of treatment and I got brave enough to do FW dips that I noticed huge improvements with the fish's ability to breathe better.

[kien]

If it will help any I have two QT tanks. One is 45g and one is 30g. Both used for this purpose. I also have copper for treatment. Let me know if you are interested. You're welcome to bring the fish over and we'll see what we can do.

[fishoholic]

+1 fishoholic I would believe her just read post on MV it is moving... and I sympathies with her for what she went through.



Honestly it was the worst thing I ever went through in my life. The saddest day for me was when my when my regal tang was dying and it was like she couldn't take the pain the MV was putting her through any more. She started to swim as hard as she could smashing herself into the glass along the sides of the tank and jumping up and smashing her head on the top of the lid to the QT tank. It literally was like she was trying to kill herself (or at least knock herself out) in order to stop the pain. I cried a lot after watching that and I still cry at the thought of it. Makes me sick that I didn't try to save them sooner :cry:

Do yourself a favor and take Kien's offer of help.

[naesco]

It is almost impossible to say whether it is ich or marine velvet from your picture.
When you look at the fish lengthwise do you see tiny salt-like specs on it?
If that is the case it is ich and what you need to do immediately is treat the fish as the infestation is serious.
Here is what you do.
Soak dry food like flakes in garlic extract from a health food store or garlic extreme from a LFS. Dry food because it soaks up the garlic much better.
Feed only garlic soaked food as the idea is to put as much garlic in the fish a fast as possible.
Feed very often, overload the fish with this food for the same reason.
If it is not salt like specs you have marine velvet and follow the advice given in the other posts. IME marine velvet kills quickly from the first signs and I note you say that they are dying over a period of 2 weeks.

[Coleus]

I never experience MV so i can't offer any advice plus i think others already give you enough information.

If funding prevent you from setting up QT. I have a 10 gallon QT tank and copper bottle you can borrow. I am sure others will step up and help if you need more QT tank.

Good luck and may I know where did you buy your recent fish?

[Delphinus]

Good luck. If there's anything else you need please post it, I'm sure between all the locals we can pony up enough equipment.

[bvlester]

MV takes a while to kill unlike brook which kills in as little as 48 hrs.Each fish is different and by just feeding them garlic and selcon soaked foods that will boost their immune system to prolong the infestation even fish with MV will take different lengths of time to kill different fish some fish even seem immune to it and don't show any signs. MV can kill 1 fish and leave the others alone till the next batch of eggs hatch and it will be 100 time worse. and that round may kill 3 fish and the next batch of eggs will hatch and produce 100 times more parasites. that is the cycle so it can kill fast but I have seen fish in LFS stores with MV last 1-2 weeks. You just have to know what you are looking at.

Remember people it takes 1 fish to start a cycle and that fish is generally the first to die but not always depends on it immune system. I have seem 1 tank wiped out from MV and to treat it as MV will also cure ICK but is very hard on the fish. ICK looks like flake and MV looks like the fish has been dusted with flower that can range in color from white to black. It is bad and mistaken for many different parasites better to error on the safe side and call it MV and treat it as if it were MV, because the treatment will cure ICK also. If you know it is ICK for sure treat it with FW dips and soak food with garlic and selcon.

If I were closer I would do what ever I could to help. We use to drop an old Pennie in the sump once a month it would keep the copper level up a bit as there is a trace amount in natural sea water and now imitation sea water has trace amounts. This will not help you out any just some old folklore that was used in the hobby many years ago.

I don't remember having so much ICK in LFS tanks back then as I see these day and they sell fish with visible parisites, they should be ashamed.

Bill

[sitandwatch]

Thanks for the advice.

I have pm'd Kien to see if I can work somthing out, I just hope I get the right Kien.

[sitandwatch]

How old is the tank? and the Ammonia levels?

Ken
The tank is an upgrade and been running for about 3 months now.

Ammonia is 0

[sitandwatch]

Just got a call from the great Kien and he is going to help QT the fish

Thanks for the help

[bvlester]

great to see that yo are getting some help with this and things take a turn for the better.

Bill

[trinac]

Honestly it was the worst thing I ever went through in my life. The saddest day for me was when my when my regal tang was dying and it was like she couldn't take the pain the MV was putting her through any more. She started to swim as hard as she could smashing herself into the glass along the sides of the tank and jumping up and smashing her head on the top of the lid to the QT tank. It literally was like she was trying to kill herself (or at least knock herself out) in order to stop the pain. I cried a lot after watching that and I still cry at the thought of it. Makes me sick that I didn't try to save them sooner :cry:

Do yourself a favor and take Kien's offer of help.

Yikes... that is sad. In one of the books I have there is some information on euthanasia for very sick marine fish - The Marine Fish Health and Feeding Handbook. The book is at home, and I am in BC though, so I can't offer any more information right now.

Something to consider though if it ever gets to that point.

I got the book at Chapters online for like $35 or something. Its worth the read for sure.

[bvlester]

clove oil will put the fish to sleep for good and it is painless.

BIll

[sitandwatch]

Quick update.

The fish got picked up but sadly two did not make it.

One the Mystery Wrasse that I have had since the start looks like it got attacked and died my guess due to that and the stress.

The other a fairy wrasse, I suspect stress, and being farther along being sick.

I now know why people leave this hobby its one thing to loose a fish but to loose so many so fast and ones that you have a bond with "as much as you can bond with a fish"

This just sucks

Cant stop thanking Kien, I hope that the rest pull through.

[Coleus]

It sucks sometime, I am sorry to hear you loss.

[kien]

Well, I guess since we are keeping everyone up to date..

Ya, so I picked up the fish yesterday from Brian, they weren't looking so hot. The Pink Tail Trigger looked like he wasn't going to make the trip back to my place. In the end it was the Mystery wrasse that didn't make the trip. He had a huge gash on his throat that looked like someone attacked and bit him or he got injured somehow. Sadly he was dead when I opened the bucket. First round of cupramine last night. This morning I noticed the two Perculas and the Pink Tail was eating (garlic soaked pellets and flakes). Niger still hiding in rocks. So that is positive that the Pink Tail Trigger went from a write off to swimming around and eating. The Perculas and the Yellow tang looked the strongest so I gave them a fresh water dip. I think that helped them out a lot, especially the clowns because the clowns were really dusted up like baby powder. That's all cleared up now.

Here's my QT/Hospital rig. Up top is a 45g and down below is a 33g.

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/IMG_4743.jpg?t=1276789475

Pink Tail hanging out with one of the Perculas.

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/IMG_4745.jpg?t=1276789687

Copper treatments can be pretty stressful on fish too so let's cross our fingers..

[fishoholic]

Here's hoping. Thanks Kien for taking those fish and trying to save them, that is very nice of you :biggrin:

[Coleus]

we should call Kien, the fish doctor. I hope they will pull through.

[bvlester]

Hay mod can you put Kien, the fish doctor under his name.....
It's good of Kien to do this for Brian or anyone for that matter.

Cheers for Kien.

Bill

[kien]

Thanks, I'm flattered :redface: ..but I am no fish doctor.. I'm just happy that there's something I can do to help out here.

[kien]

Just fed the fish and they all came out to eat, including the Niger trigger that was hiding under a rock since I put them in yesterday evening. In quarantine is the Niger Trigger, Pink Tail Trigger, Yellow tang and two Perculas.

[The Grizz]

so far so good Dr. Kien, nice job my friend. Wish you where here when my 65 gal pred tank got hit with MV, maybe my lionfish would have survived.

[sitandwatch]

Thanks for the update Kien glad to know that they are going to have a chance.

Oh finally got tank re aqascaped last night, it never seems to go back the same.

[kien]

Well, I'm not going to say that we are in the clear but I think we have definitely seen the worst of it as the fish are healing up now. I've done a weeks worth of cupramine and formalin and some hefty water changes in there somewhere with another week to go. I think the fish are sick of garlic now :lol: but they do love my fish mush.

If you scroll back to the beginning of this thread you'll see how they looked before I took them in. They are definitely looking a lot better now. The clowns are no longer covered in baby powder. The Pink Tail just has a few spots left and is black again. He was almost white and very lethargic when I took him. Both the Yellow Tang and the Niger are completely clear of any visible infestation.

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/IMG_5079.jpg?t=1277180018

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/IMG_5063.jpg?t=1277180037

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/IMG_5068.jpg?t=1277180059

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/IMG_5078.jpg?t=1277180079

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/IMG_5071.jpg?t=1277180123

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/IMG_5069.jpg?t=1277180140

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/IMG_5077.jpg?t=1277180102

[Duffer2]

Well, I'm not going to say that we are in the clear but I think we have definitely seen the worst of it as the fish are healing up now. I've done a weeks worth of cuppermine and formalin and some hefty water changes in there somewhere with another week to go. I think the fish are sick of garlic now :lol: but they do love my fish mush.

If you scroll back to the beginning of this thread you'll see how they looked before I took them in. They are definitely looking a lot better now. The clowns are no longer covered in baby powder. The Pink Tail just has a few spots left and is black again. He was almost white and very lethargic when I took him. Both the Yellow Tang and the Niger are completely clear of any visible infestation.


They look amazing. Well done!!!!!

[sitandwatch]

Great Work Fish Dr Kien.

They look much better with a color other then white.

[bvlester]

You can tell the Nigers is looking better and is feeling healthier his color is changing I have found that when they are really happy they go a aqau blue in color. Great work there Dr. Kien by the way that nick is going to stick...

Bill

[tinman]

you da man dr kien, hats off to you!

[fsjman]

Damn man this brought tears to my eyes Good job Kien hats off to you hope they make it

[Ian]

awesome!!!

[kevNnic]

they are looking 100x better!! glad to see there are people out there willing to lend a hand in this horrible situations, I really need to setup a QT tank here soon!

[sitandwatch]

The fish have come home!!!

I picked up the Niger, Pink Tail, Clowns and Yellow tang last night from Dr Kien.

They all look sooooo much better, by the time I acclimated them it was dark so I will get some photos up later.

I have to give a huge thanks to Kien and his family for looking after and treating the fish, without that assistance I am pretty sure I would be out the hobby.

[Leah]

Glad you have your fish back and it all worked out. And kien way to go...so incredibly nice of you to do all you did. Pretty sure not many people would have done it. :biggrin:

[fishoholic]

Not to put a damper on things but it's only been about 4 weeks since Kien took the fish from you. Velvet can last in your tank for 6-8 weeks (after you remove all the fish) there might be a possibility that the velvet is still in your system and your fish might re-catch it. I really hope this doesn't happen but I would of waited at least 3 more weeks before bringing them home. I waited 8 weeks before I added my fish back to the display when I had velvet, and even then I was scared they might re-get it. Thankfully they didn't, but everywere you read says to leave your tank fish free for a minium of 6 weeks because the velvet virus can live in the system for that long, even without fish to host on.

[Chaloupa]

KIEN....can you please tell me the dose you were doing of both the formalin and copper, and exact treatment regiment? I appreciate it!

[Lance]

Not to put a damper on things but it's only been about 4 weeks since Kien took the fish from you. Velvet can last in your tank for 6-8 weeks (after you remove all the fish) there might be a possibility that the velvet is still in your system and your fish might re-catch it. I really hope this doesn't happen but I would of waited at least 3 more weeks before bringing them home. I waited 8 weeks before I added my fish back to the display when I had velvet, and even then I was scared they might re-get it. Thankfully they didn't, but everywere you read says to leave your tank fish free for a minium of 6 weeks because the velvet virus can live in the system for that long, even without fish to host on.


+1 Minimum of 6 weeks, 8 weeks recommended.

[flamer64]

Marine velvet is awful I lost 26 out of 34 fish to it last summer. I wouldn't of lost as many if I had acted quicker and sucked it up and set up the qt tank and did the copper treatment earlier. It was a HUGE PITA to catch that many fish out of two three feet tall 230g tanks, then QT them all and treat them in a 120g with copper for 2 weeks (doing 50% water changes every other day, so ammonia wouldn't spike) then let the displays sit empty for another 6 weeks :twised: but If I hadn't did it I would not of saved the eight fish that did make it, one of them being my prized king angel. My only regret is being to lazy not to have done it sooner and have had the possibility to save more of them.

Sorry to be blunt, but as I see it, you either try to treat your fish with copper or watch them all die. Keep in mind your rock and corals will be useless if you treat the display and the fish need the copper treatment for 2 weeks and be out of the display for another 6 weeks (if you didn't treat in the display) before the velvet is gone from the system. If it's not worth it to QT and save what fish you have left & if it's not to late for them already (MV kills fast) then know that you will need to wait 8 weeks after the last fish has died before adding any new fish to the display, this needs to be done in order to not infect the new fish with MV.

FYI even when you start copper treatment fish will still die during the 1st week. It wasn't until the 2 week of treatment before fish stopped dying on me.
Here's a link to my thread when my fish had marine velvet. Lots of good info in it and some graphic pic.'s http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51938&highlight=marine+velvet
have follwed your story http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon14.gifglad things are better http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon12.gif keep your fingers crossed for us we are going through the same thing http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon9.gif only looks like we are going to have a wipe out http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gif like you i dread getting up and coming home http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon9.gif

colette an phil http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Zoaelite]

Any updates on the fish? Glad to see such a positive and helpful community on here, Kien is practically in it for everyone :lol:.

[sitandwatch]

They are all doign well, they are fat round and happy.

I have not seen any signs of poor health so far so good.

Yup Kein was a fish saver forsure :biggrin: