GFI & storms

[Doug]

In all my years of using GFI ,s on my tanks, never had this problem before. Apparently we are in the middle of monsoon season here. During one of the storms today, lightning I guess, created a brief power down. Computer, aquarium,etc. It was only like a sec.

Power back but I noticed my sump, return and skimmer not restarting. MP 20,s running, as they are on another GFI/arc fault circuit. I find the GFI tripped on the above mentioned circuit. Reset it and everythings fine.

However, of course that scenario is no good if no body around to reset. So I ask. What the &&&^%$. Does this mean I have a problem with that wall GFI I installed, as opposed to the GFI/arc fault in the breaker panel?

[Skimmerking]

weird Doug i know about the power surge down here on the east end the power pack kicked in for a milli sec to the beeping sound. however the lights didnt shut off thou and the GFI 's were all good

[Doug]

Yep. Cant have that when not around. If its not one thing its another. Sheez.

[DiverDude]

Doug,

You have to keep in mind what GFI's are meant for. They are intended to protect humans from electrocution. To that end, when they detect a difference in current between hot and neutral, they trip and cut power. If you were holding a hair dryer with a bad cord while standing on a wet floor, it possibly saved your life.

For our purposes with aquaria, it still saves livestock in certain circumstances but it's still primarilly to save YOUR butt if something leaks current to the tank and you stick your hand in there.

The GFI did what it was supposed to but the catch is that it has to be manually reset and as you've pointed out, there are pitfalls to that when all your aquarium gear is plugged into it.

[Doug]

Doug,

You have to keep in mind what GFI's are meant for. They are intended to protect humans from electrocution. To that end, when they detect a difference in current between hot and neutral, they trip and cut power. If you were holding a hair dryer with a bad cord while standing on a wet floor, it possibly saved your life.

For our purposes with aquaria, it still saves livestock in certain circumstances but it's still primarilly to save YOUR butt if something leaks current to the tank and you stick your hand in there.

The GFI did what it was supposed to but the catch is that it has to be manually reset and as you've pointed out, there are pitfalls to that when all your aquarium gear is plugged into it.

Agreed Mark, but it should not trip from the power down. And it tripped while the other never. The tripped unit is only a few months old also. We need protection, for sure. I have always promoted gfi circuits for us and have used them for longer than I can remember, with never a related problem.

If they trip because of equipment failure, then one can understand. When away I have my tank checked daily and run two gfi circuits. I put a heater in my tank on the other circuit when I,m going to be away, so it would run along with the Vortechs.

However when the power fails and then comes back on, the gfi should still be on. Should it not?

[mike31154]

Most wall receptacle GFIs are designed to stay set when there is a power outage and power is restored. However, in the case of some outages, it's possible an imbalance causes it to trip, in which case it must be reset manually when power comes back on. There are some 'plug in' type GFIs and power bar GFIs that are designed to remain tripped when there is a power failure. The reason for this is that if they are used with certain power tools, the tool won't start spinning if you lose power and it's restored. This is a safety feature for if you happen to walk away and leave the tool turned on. In this case when power is restored and you're not in control of the power tool, it could have disastrous consequences.

GFIs are very sensitive devices, taking only milliamps in current differential to trip. Even though the one you have is only a few months old, it could still be faulty. Probably worth your while to try a new one, or at least see if you can duplicate the problem by tripping and resetting the circuit breaker feeding that device. That will simulate a power outage. If it stays on after tripping and resetting the breaker, it may have been a one time glitch and nothing to be concerned about. Always a good idea to split your system load between more than one circuit for peace of mind when you're away and some sort of power backup for added insurance.

[Doug]

Thanks Mike. I will try the breaker test.

[mike31154]

Good idea. I've also found the odd time a piece of equipment I unplug and then plug back in will cause the GFI to trip. One was a fluorescent ballast on a digital timer power bar and also the Rena canister filter on occasion. I'm no longer using the fluorescent ballast since I couldn't trust that it would not trip the device on every time cycle (I also decommissioned that part of my lighting since I added 2x MH). A second fluorescent of the same brand on another digital power bar of the same brand work flawlessly, go figure. Could be the digital power bar was causing it too, I didn't try to isolate the glitch any further. It's a tradeoff you need to be aware of and live with when using GFIs.

[Doug]

Most wall receptacle GFIs are designed to stay set when there is a power outage and power is restored. However, in the case of some outages, it's possible an imbalance causes it to trip, in which case it must be reset manually when power comes back on. There are some 'plug in' type GFIs and power bar GFIs that are designed to remain tripped when there is a power failure. The reason for this is that if they are used with certain power tools, the tool won't start spinning if you lose power and it's restored. This is a safety feature for if you happen to walk away and leave the tool turned on. In this case when power is restored and you're not in control of the power tool, it could have disastrous consequences.

GFIs are very sensitive devices, taking only milliamps in current differential to trip. Even though the one you have is only a few months old, it could still be faulty. Probably worth your while to try a new one, or at least see if you can duplicate the problem by tripping and resetting the circuit breaker feeding that device. That will simulate a power outage. If it stays on after tripping and resetting the breaker, it may have been a one time glitch and nothing to be concerned about. Always a good idea to split your system load between more than one circuit for peace of mind when you're away and some sort of power backup for added insurance.


A brief power outage, {just one of those off and back on things} and the circuit never reset again. So today I tried the test Mike suggested here and the circuit reset fine when the breaker was reset.

So whatever those power bumps are, they trip the gfi. But again, not the gfi/arc fault breaker that powers half the tank.

[StirCrazy]

A brief power outage, {just one of those off and back on things} and the circuit never reset again. So today I tried the test Mike suggested here and the circuit reset fine when the breaker was reset.

So whatever those power bumps are, they trip the gfi. But again, not the gfi/arc fault breaker that powers half the tank.


ok I am confused is it a outlet GFI or is it the gfi breaker that is tripping?

If it is the wall one change it. they go bad and start tripping more easy.

and just to be sure, the wall gfi isn't the same circut as the gfi breaker, right?

Steve

[Doug]

ok I am confused is it a outlet GFI or is it the gfi breaker that is tripping?

If it is the wall one change it. they go bad and start tripping more easy.

and just to be sure, the wall gfi isn't the same circut as the gfi breaker, right?

Steve

The breaker is a gfi/arc fault that controls the room the tank is in. Never trips when power fails. The other is a separate circuit, installed just for the tank. Its on its own regular 15amp breaker, which is the breaker I tripped for the test.

Yes, its a wall unit, that I installed. Its brand new. Its runs my controller, which runs the sump equipment, heater, halide and so on. The other circuit has my Vortechs on them, so when the other fails, both Vortechs are still running, plus I put an axillary heater on this circuit when away.

[Palytoxinhallucinations]

So is it a gfci or an arc fault? These are not the same thing... If you installed a gfi receptacle on a circuit protected by an arc fault breaker it could do weird things

[Palytoxinhallucinations]

Nevermind read your last post more carefully and it's the circuit with a regular breaker and gfi receptacle you're having issues with so toss the gfi and install a new one, faulty ones are quite common

[Doug]

Just as a point of fact. My breakers are GRI/Arc fault combined. Those are code in new homes now for bedrooms and bathrooms. I once posted a picture for someone that said there was no such creature. :D

Yes, I,m thinking its just a bad gfi. To bad as its brand new. Sigh, like most everything else one buys, its junk.

[StirCrazy]

Yes, I,m thinking its just a bad gfi. To bad as its brand new. Sigh, like most everything else one buys, its junk.

if you got it at home depot just take it back and tell em its duff and you want to exchange it for one that works.

one thing to check first is that it is all hooked up properly. ie, wired to proper termanals, not the load ones. I had to redo 3 that a electrition put in because he wired them wrong :rolleyes: one was to control the outside outlets so he installed the gfi in the back yard with the main power going into the load, then he installed the front yard plug to the source and couldn't figure out why my front yard outlet wouldnt work and the breaker kept tripping. when I saw him trying to figure out the problem I kicked him out and went and double checked everything he did. needless to say I pull home owner permits now as it is cheeper and I know it is done right.

Steve

[Skimmerking]

I believe, but don't quote me that in order for the GFI to work its got to be grounded too right.

[Doug]

Its grounded Mike, same as the receptacle I removed was.

Connected to the correct terminals Steve. The load terminals or whatever they are called, are red flagged as just that. The box only has the one dedicated wires, as it was put in just for the system. Unlike the rest of my house. :lol: Tried to put a ceiling fan in where my ceiling light is. Sheez, so many wires in there I need an electrician to figure it out.

[mike31154]

I believe, but don't quote me that in order for the GFI to work its got to be grounded too right.

Negative, as in no. GFI devices only need the hot (black or red) and neutral (white) to do their thing. While all newer homes (circa post 1950s) are wired with hot, neutral and ground, homes built in the 50s and earlier do not necessarily have the ground wire. I still have several wire runs with ungrounded cables in my place. Purchased the BC edition of the 'Electrical Code Simplified' published by PS Knight some time ago and it states in there somewhere that one way to make an ungrounded circuit safer is to install a GFI in that circuit. The GFI does not care if the load imbalance required to trip it is caused by current leak to the ground in a circuit or through another object (you) and ground through your arm, body, leg, to that wet floor you're standing on.

Doug, I'd be interested in finding out more about this combined ARC fault/GFI breaker you have. I've never heard of these either. Can you post another link or photo? Must have cost a few bucks and use a bit of space in the panel. I managed to snag a couple of 3-wire ARC fault breakers on eBay some time ago and they're monsters, although you can wire two circuits with them since they can acommodate two hot wires. Code book says you can't use them for a 3 wire circuit but they're clearly designed to do just that. I reckon the code needs to catch up with the newer devices and I've installed one of them anyway.

[Doug]

Same size as a regular breaker Mike. I think I deleted the pic I posted here of it but will have a look or take another for you.

[BC564]

I have a few gfci plugs that when under load and the power goes out...they trip.....and yes it needs to be grounded.....

My tank has to be reset everytime there is a brown out or power outage...its a pain but not sure how to get around it.

[StirCrazy]

In all my years of using GFI ,s on my tanks, never had this problem before. Apparently we are in the middle of monsoon season here. During one of the storms today, lightning I guess, created a brief power down. Computer, aquarium,etc. It was only like a sec.

Power back but I noticed my sump, return and skimmer not restarting. MP 20,s running, as they are on another GFI/arc fault circuit. I find the GFI tripped on the above mentioned circuit. Reset it and everythings fine.

However, of course that scenario is no good if no body around to reset. So I ask. What the &&&^%$. Does this mean I have a problem with that wall GFI I installed, as opposed to the GFI/arc fault in the breaker panel?


I was thinking about this and let me see if I have this right. you have a arc fault breaker in the power pannel then you put a GFI plugin which you plug your stuff into. right?

If this is the case it will keep randomly tripping, as the arc fault and the gfi with kinda get confused and argue with each other. this was a common problem when they introduced arc fault to places that also had a requirment for GFI. take a dinning room for eg, commonly they were run on the same circut as kitchens and because there were gfi instaled on that circut by the sink when they installed the arc breaker in the pannel it would cause nusence tripping. so now they have to run a seperat arc fault circut for the dinning room.

I did some more reading there is a combo GFIC/AFIC breaker made by cuttler hammer, but they are expensive, and a waist of money for most aplications.

Steve

[Doug]

I have a separate GFCI which was installed just for my tank, with a spearate 15amp breaker in the panel. I run my controller on it, which runs the lights, heater, etc.

My place also has GFCI/AFI, in some rooms, the room my tank is in being one. Those breakers are code here in new homes for some rooms, I think bedrooms. My tank/office is in what would have been a small 3rd bedroom.

The arc faults are very sensitive, and I would not run all my equipment on them, plus as mentioned they dont fire halides.



I copied that from another thread Steve. I will be darned if I know where the pic of it is.

They are not the same circuit. All the bedrooms and bathrooms in my house have GFI/arc fault breakers in the panel. The GFI I,m having problems with is a completely separate circuit, installed just for the tank. It has its own regular 15 amp breaker.

Also as I said, part of my tank runs on the standard GFI circuit and part runs on the GFI/arc fault circuit, which are completely different plug ins.

[Lampshade]

Well... there's another option too. GFCI's trip based on detecting trickle currents. They operate in 20-40 milliseconds. That is EXTREAMLY fast, 1 cycle is 16ms. A typical distribution circuit breaker operates in 2-20 cycles(depending on magnitude of the fault). and faults far down a line are generally co-ordinated to clear a fuse or a recloser first, which may take 2-3 cycles. This is still longer than the GFCI.

Pretty much, you may have had phase to ground fault in your area, raising the ground potential enough for your GFCI to pick it up. the GFCI will operate before the fault is cleared by your power company's protection.

[Doug]

Alrighty. Took a couple quick pics of them. These are of course horizontal in the box.

I thought they were standard now, but have a hard time making believers. :lol:

[Doug]

Well... there's another option too. GFCI's trip based on detecting trickle currents. They operate in 20-40 milliseconds. That is EXTREAMLY fast, 1 cycle is 16ms. A typical distribution circuit breaker operates in 2-20 cycles(depending on magnitude of the fault). and faults far down a line are generally co-ordinated to clear a fuse or a recloser first, which may take 2-3 cycles. This is still longer than the GFCI.

Pretty much, you may have had phase to ground fault in your area, raising the ground potential enough for your GFCI to pick it up. the GFCI will operate before the fault is cleared by your power company's protection.

Thats sounds like a very good explanation. Of course no idea if thats the case or not. If I may add I had several gfi,s wired into my stand for my 90g at this residence and several of the same at my previous residence. Had power blurps or complete failures in both situations and never had a gfi not restart when power came back.

[Lampshade]

Since your power was turned back on within a second or 2, it was most likly an automatic reclose that brought it back, automatic recloses are usually in place to "pop" a tree off a line, and they work. If the tree was close by your house, it may have been able to show up as ground current in your house for only a the 1-2 cycles before the fault was cleared off the power line. Usually doesn't happen since there's usually many houses fed by the same circuit, and odd's of the tree being close to enough to yours is slim.

[Lampshade]

may still be a bad GFCI, they do need to be replaced sometimes, that's jsut another option. If it's usually fine and just one isolated incident, could be something external, like the power outage location. If it keeps happening then most defintily replace it, In Manitoba i'm sure you get to test it frequently enough :P. And since you're in Manitoba could actually have been a lighting hit on the distribution system, rare out here, but more common in the prairies. That would defintily raise the ground potential.

[Lampshade]

And... just to overkill this more... Could also have been a surge protector plugged into the GFCI, they shunt excess voltage to ground, which will trip a GFCI. Lightning strike would be a surge, and sent to ground by your surge protector, through your GFCI. Good surge protector's are almost instant, something like 1/100 micorseconds.

[westom]

I thought they were standard now, but have a hard time making believers.
GFCIs are not used on refrigerators for same reasons you have suffered.

GFCIs can be surge damaged if proper 'whole house' protection is not installed. So newer GFCIs will trip open on power loss. And will not reset if surge damaged. That is a problem for you.

So many have posted myths. For example, any ground fault before that GFCI is completely irrelevant. The only relevant ground fault is after the GFCI. AFGIs and GFCIs do not 'fight' - another myth based in not understanding what these devices do. GFCIs do nothing for surges - for so many obvious reasons.

A GFCI measures an electromagnetic field around both wires. Obviously, this causes no power changed or problems. If those fields are not same, then a GFCI opens. IOW if current after the GFCI finds some other path to earth, then GFCI trips.

This is considered a major human safety problem for refrigerators. Therefore GFCIs are exempted on appliances that cause safety problems when tripped.

[Doug]

Thanks for the input guys. Just trying to decide on what option to try so that when away and power flickers, I still have most things running. Likely best to only runs lights on that circuit when away and the rest on the house gfi circuit.

So then Westom, why does the other GFCI/AFCI not trip under the same circumstance? Is there a difference between the ones we install and my panel breakers?

Also Steve. Never heard from you since posting pics of the GFCI/AFCI. Dont you guys use them in Alberta or BC ?

[mike31154]

Alrighty. Took a couple quick pics of them. These are of course horizontal in the box.

I thought they were standard now, but have a hard time making believers. :lol:

Thanks for the photos. Looks like they're Cutler Hammer breakers. I have a Siemens breaker panel and after doing some reading on combination AFI GFI units was unable to find any Siemens devices. Looks like these combo breakers are still few and far between, not that readily available. BC code does require GFI and AFI devices on all new installations as well these days. Bedrooms and any other room that may be used as some sort of sleeping quarters must be AFI protected, bathrooms and circuits to do with water, GFI protected. During my search on the net, it looks like the US NEC (national electric code) is in the process of requiring AFI protection in virtually every room! A little overkill maybe, trying to protect people from p-poor wiring installations? Who knows. Might as well design the main house breaker as an AFI/GFI unit, although that will be tricky with two hot wires. Some congressman or senator must have a brother who's an electrical contractor...

[westom]

During my search on the net, it looks like the US NEC (national electric code) is in the process of requiring AFI protection in virtually every room! A little overkill maybe, trying to protect people from p-poor wiring installations?
AGFI is for fires. I have seen many. For example, she connected the Christmas tree. Saw a spark. In five minutes, the entire house was afire. They did not even have time to rescue any pets. That is why AGFI are required.

Another burned the entire second floor because a zip cord inside a lamp arced. In every case (and others) the AGFI would have prevented every fire.

Doug - many differences (variables) exist. For example, all appliances leak current. How much? Which one is leaking more? And which one leaks more current when humidity increases? I cannot answer you question due to woefully insufficient facts. To have an answer, you must provide numbers. And this from my previous post: newer GFCIs trip open on power loss whereas older ones did not.

[Doug]

Thanks guys. Yes, I fully aware of what the AFCI are for. Besides Mike, the pics were for Steve, who never understood what I was saying. Same as the last thread, where someone told me there was no such as thing.

A portion of my tank runs on that circuit but it wont fire halides. Fluorescence no problem but not anything with an igniter I guess.

[StirCrazy]

Thanks guys. Yes, I fully aware of what the AFCI are for. Besides Mike, the pics were for Steve, who never understood what I was saying. Same as the last thread, where someone told me there was no such as thing.

A portion of my tank runs on that circuit but it wont fire halides. Fluorescence no problem but not anything with an igniter I guess.

didn't need pixcturees od the breakers, the explanation was good. I found the arc/gfi's from cuttler hammer. and no they are not common as cuttlerhammer is the only one on the market right now and almost any new pannel I see is seemins. I am onb hollidays right now this is the first time I have been able to get on. I would honestly just change your GFI outlet as it is probably a bit dammaged. and for the 14 bucks, what the heck.

Steve

[Greenmaster]

I don't think anyone else has said this but I feel this is one of the more important investments for a reef tank...(especially one that has thousands of dollars of livestock). I would suggest getting a UPS modifying it and adding Deep Cycle batteries so that it can last for 12 hours or so... just to run your pump and heaters so you don't lose your entire tank... the entire thing should cost less then $500 and it protects you from lots of different power shortage issues... including making sure that the pump is always getting constant "clean" power... and that helps with extending the life of the pump too.

Just my 2 cents.

[westom]

I don't think anyone else has said this but I feel this is one of the more important investments for a reef tank...(especially one that has thousands of dollars of livestock). I would suggest getting a UPS modifying it and adding Deep Cycle batteries so that it can last for 12 hours or so...
First you cannot use deep cycle batteries in interior environments. They can output dangerous gases.

Second, a typical UPS outputs power so 'dirty' as to harm small electric motors and power strip protector. Same electricity is ideal for routinely 'more robust' electronics. To obtain a UPS with sufficient clean power starts at $500 or $1000 - before violating UL safety ratings by adding external batteries. Or power those motors, etc from a DC power supply that would isolate DC motors, etc from AC mains by first converting AC to regulated DC power. But that means replacing AC motors with DC motors.

Options are available. But one should first learn some simple electrical concepts before changing things - ie externally attached batteries.

[Greenmaster]

First you cannot use deep cycle batteries in interior environments. They can output dangerous gases.

Second, a typical UPS outputs power so 'dirty' as to harm small electric motors and power strip protector. Same electricity is ideal for routinely 'more robust' electronics. To obtain a UPS with sufficient clean power starts at $500 or $1000 - before violating UL safety ratings by adding external batteries. Or power those motors, etc from a DC power supply that would isolate DC motors, etc from AC mains by first converting AC to regulated DC power. But that means replacing AC motors with DC motors.

Options are available. But one should first learn some simple electrical concepts before changing things - ie externally attached batteries.

You can get sealed batteries as well but I would still suggest putting them and the UPS outside in a dry, heated (more for winter and to help keep it dry) location not too far away. It can be bulky and not look that great.
... the idea of replacing the small 12v or 24v batteries that are in the UPS is so you have "sufficient clean power" I'm not sure what UPS your talking about but the ones I have looked at are good.
I didn't even hint at trying to do a DC motor...
Some things that most UPS do are:
When there is a surge in the power they will blow the surge protector and continue to supply the power (often beeping and a small LED flashes to tell you it has no power) then when you notice it you go hit the reset button and voila you have your power back from the wall and it slowly charges your batteries again.
When there is a lull it continues to provide power to the system to make it constant (AKA clean)
When I say that the UPS is clean I don't mean that it provides exceptional power regulation, all I am saying is that it is far superior to strait dirty power from the wall.
It would have prevented his GFI from going off as it would have supplied the power needed when the power "blinked" and there wouldn't have been the surge of power needed to start-up all the equipment that had shut off for a fraction of a second. Also I have heard that some chillers will be stuck in the on position after a Blink. Pumps not starting up at all...
The only problems I have heard of about DIY mods on a UPS is when they didn't do it right. So if you don't know what you are doing get someone who does to do it for you. Or "obtain a UPS with sufficient clean power" they "starts at $500 or $1000" I didn't look to see if they have "sufficient" power but even at that price tag they may lack a little in power. AKA only last a few hours instead of like 12-48 for the DIY depending on how many batteries you want. Also there are several different kinds of power storage other then Deep Cycle batteries but I found the Deep Cycle to be the cheapest way to go (cheap is a relative term).

Another thing that you (Doug) could do is have your power items on more separate GFI circuits and when they all power on at the same time in that manner it won't pop the GFI. Given the fact that you can't reproduce the problem I would say that you are quite close to the threshold and you could move one powerhead or heater and it "shouldn't" happen again... but no promises.

[mike31154]

The issue with most small UPS units (even if you use external batteries for more capacity) is that the inverter they use to convert the battery DC to AC for your equipment produces a 'modified' sine wave, somewhat chopped and analagous to a square wave. I think this is what Westom is referring to as not clean, or dirty power. This modified sine wave is hard on motors in particular, they may run, but it can be detrimental to their running life, depending on the quality of the motor. Things like heaters don't care if the sine wave is modified. As far as using deep cycle or other large lead acid batteries indoors, yes it is not advisable due to the fumes given off during charging, but if you set up proper ventilation, you can mitigate that problem. A search on solar or wind powered homes will provide plenty of info on folks using large banks of lead acid batteries to supplement their home power or run off the grid entirely.

If you want truly clean power to run your equipment during a power outage, invest in a true sine wave inverter (easily twice the price of most inverters available) powered by a deep cycle battery(ies) or a good quality generator. With a few extra components, relay, trickle charger, you can build a better UPS yourself.

[Greenmaster]

... If you want truly clean power to run your equipment during a power outage, invest in a true sine wave inverter (easily twice the price of most inverters available) powered by a deep cycle battery(ies) or a good quality generator. With a few extra components, relay, trickle charger, you can build a better ups yourself.
+1

[Doug]

I think I posted this somewhere in my thread. I do run two different circuits, one with the mentioned GFI and the other on the GFI/Arc Fault.

The problem GFI is on a circuit specifically installed for my aquarium and my 30g cube could not run close to the 15amps. Plus its split on the two as mentioned.

I think thats what I will do Steve. Thanks.