So mad right now GRRRRRR!!!! (R.I.P. froggy)

[fishoholic]

So I come home to find my frogfish is missing part (a good part, like the whole fan back half part) of his tail :mad::bad-word::bad-word::bad-word::bad-word::mad:

I'm guessing my fu man chu lionfish had to have done it as there are no other fish in that tank :evil: I've never seen the lion bother the frog before and they've always seemed to have gotten along fine in the past but then they've only been sharing the same tank for the last 2 weeks or so.

I didn't feed fu man chu last night and now I'm wondering if that had anything to do with it, guess I'll never know for sure. However my dilemma now is what to do. I really like both fish and I don't want to get rid of either one, but I don't want the lion to hurt the frog any further. GRRRRRRR not sure what to do. Thought about moving the lion into my big reef tank but I have a green clown goby, mandarin goby, scooter blenny and tail spot blenny that I wouldn't want to be food for the fu man chu.

On the plus side the frog seems to be ok. He is still able to swim around and he tried to eat. Unfortunately he kept spitting it back up (which he hasn't done in awhile) but at least he was showing interest in food.

I did get my lion to eat a piece of silverside so hopefully he'll leave froggy alone. Best case scenario he saw the frog's tail from around the corner and bit it not realizing it was attached to a bigger fish. Not sure what else to do for now other then keep a close eye on things and watch that the frog doesn't get hurt more. Maybe a bigger tank would help (they are only in a 20g cube) but I don't want any bigger then a 40g cube and unfortunately I'm not allowed to spend any more $$ of fish stuff so I'm SOL on that (for now) at least until I can convince my boyfriend to let me.

Not the best pic.'s but it gives you an idea.
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/Laurie_Morin/20g%20cube/DSC_2071.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/Laurie_Morin/20g%20cube/DSC_2070.jpg

Melafix here I come!

[whatcaneyedo]

Holy crap I had no idea a fu manchu could do that! I always thought of them as the swallowing whole type rather than biting and severing. Although having both in a 20gal does seem to be pushing it. Could it have been an act of territorial aggression or do they get along well?

[Dyspnea]

Whoa! that is a big chunk

[fishoholic]

Holy crap I had no idea a fu manchu could do that! I always thought of them as the swallowing whole type rather than biting and severing. Although having both in a 20gal does seem to be pushing it. Could it have been an act of territorial aggression or do they get along well?

That's what driving me crazy:

A: I have no idea how my fu man chu did that, when he eats silversides he waits until I drop the piece, then watches it float around a bit, then gulps it down hole. Although since there is no other fish in the tank I don't see what else could of done it. Ok as I just typed that I remembered that I've heard popping sounds (which I think are from a pistol shrimp, But I've never seen it) but I don't think a pistol shrimp or mantis could of done that and I have a very small anemone crab (pretty sure that's what it is) however I don't think it could of done that either.

and B: So far whenever I have been watching they've gotten along fine. I've seen them close together (actually touching each other) but they just kind of hang out together then eventually one or the other moves on. Most of the time they are in different spots of the tank but I've never seen either one of them chase the other if they get to close to the spot they prefer to be in. Of course I don't watch them for the most part at night so who knows...Just seems odd to me that they seem to be fine and could care less about each other during the day but then to come home to froggy's tail missing makes me wonder WTF.

[naesco]

I have never kept either a lion or frog fish because I am not into predators.
When you have two fish in a small tank these attacks are likely to happen.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dendrochirus.htm recommends a minimum 40 gallon tank.

I know you are familiar with this site. Any reason you didn't check this out before you bought the fish?
You will need to rehome at least one of them if you you want the frogfish to live IMO.

[Aquattro]

Wayne, I disagree. I don't for a minute believe the lion did that, I'd be looking for a hidden crab. Another possibility is the tail got stuck between some rocks and broke off during the struggle to get free. Try looking for the tail piece...

Since these fish aren't huge swimmers, the space should be fine as long as water quality is maintained.

[fishoholic]

Wayne, I disagree. I don't for a minute believe the lion did that, I'd be looking for a hidden crab. Another possibility is the tail got stuck between some rocks and broke off during the struggle to get free. Try looking for the tail piece...

Since these fish aren't huge swimmers, the space should be fine as long as water quality is maintained.

You know it does seem more likely that the frog got suck and it broke off. I will be keeping a close eye on things to see if the lion starts picking on the frog. I didn't see a tail piece but I wasn't looking for it either, I'll have to see if I can spot it. The water quality has been really good in that tank so it shouldn't be a problem maintaining it, I'm also treating with Saltwater Melafix, so hopefully that helps.

Wayne I know the 20g is a bit small, I wasn't expecting to find a fu man chu that actually was eating frozen and had a good chance of survival so I wasn't able to pass him up. I do want to set up a 40g cube for these guys but I 1st have to find a way to convince my boyfriend to let me, or do it in a way were he wont be to mad at me. I'm hoping that by Sept. this year I'll have a 40g cube for them. Both of them aren't very big swimmers, and have always seemed to have enough room, so I thought they'd be ok for a few months in the 20g.

[kien]

Ya I would guess that he maybe dropped his tail while under duress, kind of like what lizards do. Easily grown back later.

[sphelps]

Yeah I can't see the lionfish doing that either, the fu-man-chu in particular is very passive and defends it's territory by angling it's spines towards the threat and waving them around. It's not a bitter by any means.

Fins grow back so as long as the fish doesn't seem bothered by it, it's a minor problem.

[fishytime]

sorry to he about your froggie Laurie:cry:

I agree......looks like too clean of a break to be a "bite".....that being said Im not really sure whether or not frogfish are able to shed body parts???

[christyf5]

+1 on the clean break, no way that is a bite, it would be more ragged looking both the skin and the muscle within. My guess he caught it and broke it off in a rock somewhere. That is one clean looking break.

[BlueWorldAquatic]

+1 Too clean of a cut.

Definitely looks like a clean cut from pinchers.

Anyone good with prosthetics?

Ken

[fishoholic]

Yeah I can't see the lionfish doing that either, the fu-man-chu in particular is very passive and defends it's territory by angling it's spines towards the threat and waving them around. It's not a bitter by any means.

Fins grow back so as long as the fish doesn't seem bothered by it, it's a minor problem.

I also had thought that if the lionfish was going to attack that he would of spiked him or something not bite. Thankfully the frog doesn't seem to be bothered by it. He's acting normal.

sorry to he about your froggie Laurie:cry:

I agree......looks like too clean of a break to be a "bite".....that being said Im not really sure whether or not frogfish are able to shed body parts???

I never thought about him being able to "break it off" I just really freaked out when I got home and found him that way. The only thing at the time I could think of was that my lion must have done it, mostly because I couldn't think of how else it could of happened. However that didn't make a lot of sense to me as the lion has never shown any aggression towards the frog. Not sure if they are able to shed parts or not, I just hope he will be ok.

Thanks again everyone for the imput, I never thought it could be a break, so it's good to know that's most likely what happened and that it probably wasn't the lionfish.

[fishoholic]

+1 on the clean break, no way that is a bite, it would be more ragged looking both the skin and the muscle within. My guess he caught it and broke it off in a rock somewhere. That is one clean looking break.

That is reasuring, thanks Christy.

+1 Too clean of a cut.

Definitely looks like a clean cut from pinchers.

Anyone good with prosthetics?

Ken

Trust me no pinchers were involved :lol: The thought of a prosthetic is knida funny though, thankfully he is able to still swim around.

[BlueWorldAquatic]

Call him stumpy from now on.

Ken

[christyf5]

Unless frogfish are special, I don't think his tail will grow back much if at all. My experience with chomped tails is that if its below the caudal peduncle (the area where the fin joins to the meaty part containing the backbone) it won't grow back like it was before. It may just be a stump. My understanding is that frogfish don't really use their tail much anyways so I don't think this will be a problem.

However I could also be talking out of my arse on this so just to cover mine in case his tail grows back fully, I'll mention that in case I look like a doofus later on :razz:

[Funky_Fish14]

I think if the bone is gone (where all the tail bones/cartilage grow from), then parts after that will not grow back. In this case I don't know if much would grow back there at all. But like Christy I might be talking out my behind too.

Definitely looks like a dropped tail for some reason. That looks very similar to the end of a lizard's tail right after a drop.

[fishoholic]

Unless frogfish are special, I don't think his tail will grow back much if at all. My experience with chomped tails is that if its below the caudal peduncle (the area where the fin joins to the meaty part containing the backbone) it won't grow back like it was before. It may just be a stump. My understanding is that frogfish don't really use their tail much anyways so I don't think this will be a problem.

However I could also be talking out of my arse on this so just to cover mine in case his tail grows back fully, I'll mention that in case I look like a doofus later on :razz:


I think if the bone is gone (where all the tail bones/cartilage grow from), then parts after that will not grow back. In this case I don't know if much would grow back there at all. But like Christy I might be talking out my behind too.

Definitely looks like a dropped tail for some reason. That looks very similar to the end of a lizard's tail right after a drop.

I think you're both right I doubt his tail will grow back.

Also it really does look like how a lizard's tail looks when they drop it. Don't know why he'd drop it though (or if that's possible) but I'll check when I get home and see if I can find the tail in the tank.

[Leah]

I have heard of frog legs but frogfish tail anyone?

[Lance]

when I get home and see if I can find the tail.


Reminds me of my younger days......... Get off work and spend half the night searching for a piece of tail. :mrgreen:

[muck]

hahaha.... a new sig for me... yoink

[howdy20012002]

it would have to be a big crab to be able to cleanly cut it off like that - one that would definitely be noticed crawling around in a 20 gallon.
it getting stuck and breaking off makes the most sense i guess...i dunno...definitely out of the ordinary.
Neal

[lastlight]

Reminds me of my younger days......... Get off work and spend half the night searching for a piece of tail. :mrgreen:

LMAO! I saw Ryan's sig and tried to imagine where that post was! Sure enough...

Hope your pal pulls through. That's a shocking injury I hope it doesn't get infected.

[fishoholic]

Reminds me of my younger days......... Get off work and spend half the night searching for a piece of tail. :mrgreen:

:pound: Thank-you Lance for helping me find hummor in the situation. :thumb:

Neal I've never seen a big crab in the tank but I did notice a very very small one so I don't think that's it, but I agree definately out of the ordinary.

Brett tanks for the concern, needless to say I was quite shocked and upset when I found him like that. Thankfully last night and this morning he seemed fine dispite his injuries. I'm hoping the melafix with fight off any infection and help him heal.

Unfortunately I have a meeting tonight after work and I wont get home until around 9pm so here's hoping he's still ok.

[Lance]

I hope the little fella mends up. I agree with the others. I can't see that injury being the result of a bite.

[Edmonton newbie]

strange but very clean break you didnt happen to drop a knife in there? jkjk

[fishoholic]

Good news, despite his injuries frogfish seems fine :mrgreen: He's swimming around fairly normally, and he even ate (and kept down) 2 pieces of silversides :cheer2:

Also I have to say (even though it's stinking up my computer room something fierce, since that's where the tank is located) is: GO MELAFIX GO MELAFIX GO GO GO MELAFIX! Let your magic healing powers begin! It looks like his tail is already starting to heal and sort of looks like a bit of re-growth on it too. The red/pink kinda concerns me but I think that's just part of the healing process and I think it's normal.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/Laurie_Morin/20g%20cube/DSC_2073-1.jpg

I also think I saw the tail part, I tried to pick it up with the tongs (in order to take a closer look & remove it) but the frog thought I was trying to feed him and knocked the piece of ? (maybe tail part) from the tongs and then I couldn't find it again, it went under a rock I think.

[fishoholic]

strange but very clean break you didnt happen to drop a knife in there? jkjk

No knives were involved in the making of the 1st pic.'s :lol:

[Edmonton newbie]

so you were not trying for super fresh sushi then? cool

[Lance]

I think he'll be OK Laurie. As long as there is no infection fish heal incredibly fast as you know.

[fishoholic]

Help please, I got home this afternoon and my frogfishes hand is now gone!!!!!!! WTF!!!!!!!!!!

He was breathing heavy this morning so I stopped the melafix treatment and did a 25% water change and added a bubbler to the tank. When out for a bit and when I got home I notice he has a stump where is hand on his arm used to be :evil: He's still breathing heavy and now I don't know what to think about what could of happened to his hand or what I should do about it :sad:

[christyf5]

This is the oddest thing I have ever heard of. I hope he is ok :neutral:

[intarsiabox]

Can you remove him to a quarantine tank? It sure sounds like there is something in there like a mantis shrimp maybe? Since frog fish usually perch themselves somewhere they are easy targets. I hope the poor guy pulls through.:sad:

[Lance]

What????????????? This is just too strange! If it wasn't a little nano tank I'd suspect a large crab. Too weird! I hope the little guy will be ok.

[lockrookie]

just a thought .. have you tried setting up a vid cam to record the tank and watch to see whats happening or try and catch things that you dont see it may be a pain but it may catch the culprit

[fishoholic]

Ya it's really strange I just don't get it. I like the video camera idea but I only have a very old video camera and I don't even know if it works, or if I have a tape for it etc.

I have heard poping sounds in the tank but I think it might be a candycane pistol shrimp not a mantis, however I've never seen it so I can't be sure, but my friend (who I got the rock from) had a pistol shrmip go missing, so likely it's that.

One friend of mine siad he owned lionfish that have bit other fish, so maybe it is the lion. The only thing that makes me think it's not is that the wounds don't look like bite marks and (whenever I've watched the tank) the lionfish hasn't showed any aggression towards the frogfish. It does seem more like something a big crab would do however I've moved the rock in and out of the tank and it's not that big so I think I'd notice a large crab. I do have a very small crab in there but it's about the size of my pinky finger nail so I don't think it's that.

I've been going through several scenario's of moving fish around but I don't know if it would help or not, so I'm not sure what to do.

[lockrookie]

i wish i could be of more help .. you can always ask a friend to lend a vid camera too. if you can find a small tank that you can quickly plumb into the system with pumps and separate the frogfish from the tank it may help untill you find the culprit.. i know its a pain if i was closer i have 3 10g tanks sitting around :( i feel bad for the poor guy

[fishoholic]

i wish i could be of more help .. you can always ask a friend to lend a vid camera too. if you can find a small tank that you can quickly plumb into the system with pumps and separate the frogfish from the tank it may help untill you find the culprit.. i know its a pain if i was closer i have 3 10g tanks sitting around :( i feel bad for the poor guy

Thanks, unfortunately there's no need for help or to feel bad now. I just got home from my friend's birthday party and I found the frogfish dead :cry:

I had been debating on moving him to my sump in my large tank system, but I didn't want to stress him out more by moving him. Also I have a mantis in that sump and I didn't want to risk it hurting the frog. However the mantis rarely ever comes out of his hole in his rock, so it might of been ok...guess I'll never know now :sad:

[Chaloupa]

OH NO, so very sad for you. Wonder what the heck happened...very strange indeed!

[fishoholic]

OH NO, so very sad for you. Wonder what the heck happened...very strange indeed!

Ya it was so bizarre. He was eating and doing good then his tail falls? off/goes missing. Treated with melafix and he seemed to be doing good and his tail started to grow back. Then this morning he's breathing hard, then his hand goes missing, then I find him dead! I still have no idea what happend to his tail or hand, I'm guessing the hard breathing was from the melafix (which is why I did a water change and added a bubbler) but however, in the end, all I know is that the whole thing doesn't make sense.

[lockrookie]

i still feel bad a loss is a loss they may not talk to us but they blow kissy faces everytime we look at them. or attitude when we tick them of. mine mostly give me attitude.

[Doug]

Sorry for your loss Laurie.

[Lance]

:cry:

[christyf5]

Sorry to hear Laurie.:neutral:

[fishoholic]

i still feel bad a loss is a loss they may not talk to us but they blow kissy faces everytime we look at them. or attitude when we tick them of. mine mostly give me attitude.

So true.

Thanks everyone.

[4lti7ude]

Sorry to hear about bumblebee. :cry:

:question: Just a random thought tho. If the frog fish was swimming through rocks and crevices, it would be very hard for his tail to get caught if his full body fit through. The only way it could get caught would be a little land slide. Even so, the chances of of a land slide caused by him would be pretty low since they swim very weak.

I watched a bunch of videos on Lion Fish eating in the wild and in captivity, and I totally think a lion fish can rip off a tail no problem. A fin being bit off would be even easier. As for the clean bite, you said you came home to finding this. Which I'm guessing means you were out for quite a while. A series of bites can of the fin off then to the body of the fish can equal a clean bite. Cause as he the fins get nipped off theirs less of a fan to bite.
The lion fish's mouth is for sure big enough to take out the tail in a couple bites and a fin in even one. I couldn't find any pictures of a lion fish's teeth, but if its a carnivore then for sure it has teeth that can do damage.

Maybe you just don't wanna think its the lion fish because hes been eating and being nice to the frog fish; but if you watch a lion fish hunt, the fish around them aren't to worried about them coming close to them. The lion fish just slowly drifts to its position and gets really close, but the fish don't seem to care...and then he attacks. Its like it can change its mood without warning.

[fishoholic]

Sorry to hear about bumblebee. :cry:

:question: Just a random thought tho. If the frog fish was swimming through rocks and crevices, it would be very hard for his tail to get caught if his full body fit through. The only way it could get caught would be a little land slide. Even so, the chances of of a land slide caused by him would be pretty low since they swim very weak.

I watched a bunch of videos on Lion Fish eating in the wild and in captivity, and I totally think a lion fish can rip off a tail no problem. A fin being bit off would be even easier. As for the clean bite, you said you came home to finding this. Which I'm guessing means you were out for quite a while. A series of bites can of the fin off then to the body of the fish can equal a clean bite. Cause as he the fins get nipped off theirs less of a fan to bite.
The lion fish's mouth is for sure big enough to take out the tail in a couple bites and a fin in even one. I couldn't find any pictures of a lion fish's teeth, but if its a carnivore then for sure it has teeth that can do damage.

Maybe you just don't wanna think its the lion fish because hes been eating and being nice to the frog fish; but if you watch a lion fish hunt, the fish around them aren't to worried about them coming close to them. The lion fish just slowly drifts to its position and gets really close, but the fish don't seem to care...and then he attacks. Its like it can change its mood without warning.

You have a good point and it makes sense that a lionfish's mood changes quickly when he's hunting. The cleanness of the cut on his tail and the fact that I've never seen the lion be aggressive to the frog lead me to think that maybe it wasn't the lion, but you're absolutely right in my not wanting to think that my lion could of done it. However when I saw his hand go missing I knew it was either the animal that make the popping sounds in my tank or a crab I couldn't see or most likely the lionfish.

I knew the melafix in the tank seemed to be hindering the frogfish's breathing so I thought about putting him in the sump of my other tank but I have a mantis in there and what if the popping sounds in the 20g come from a mantis and it's a mantis doing this to the frog and not the lion. Then I thought about moving the lion to one of my other tanks but the reef tank has too many small fish in it and the fowlr tank has a toby puffer that will nip the lion's fin's up.

Since I had plans last night and was already running late I figured that I'd figure out what to do when I got home or in the morning. I had a few plans: Put froggy in my sump or re-home him to my friend's tank, or catch the toby puffer and move him to the reef tank and put the lion in the fowlr.

Really wishing I had of moved bumblebee to the sump as ultimately I think the melafix treatment hindered his breathing so much that that's what killed him. I do think that I would of needed to move one or the other as I do think there is a strong possibility that it was the lion bitting him, however the loss of limbs he could of healed and lived with as long as I removed the cause of what was causing the limb loss. Pretty hard to live when you can't breathe though :cry:

Lesson learned: Melafix and frogfish don't mix. Probably a good idea to avoid lions and frogs together too.