Help with water quality. Add fuge?

[digi]

Hi all,

I have a somewhat newer reef. Its 5 months old and consists of a 9 gallon display, a 5 gallon sump, both without any sand, but about 14 lbs of live rock (split amongst the two tanks).

Ive still not yet reached 0 nitrates (ammonia and nitrites are 0 though), and am wondering what I can do to aid my water quality.

Here are options, what would you prefer?

Should I add live sand to the sump? (I dont want sand in the display)
Should I setup a fuge? (what are the benefits)
Or, if i shouldn't set up a fuge, should I change anything with my sump setup? Perhaps different spectrum lighting? Bioballs? Suggestions?


Helpful info on my setup:

Sump (5gal): Its basically bare bones except for live rock. All its got in it is my equipment: filter, heater, ato, and about 5lbs of live rock. Also has some weak-bones lights on it. Ikea LED's... mostly white, probably 5000k.
Display (9gal): Has Nanocustoms par LED spotlights. These lights have only been on for about a 3 weeks - and I've currently hit an algae bloom.
Livestock: LPS - (torch, octospawn, alveopora). Softties - a few zoa's. A couple gobies (clown, neon, another that i cant think of its name right now). Tailspot blenny. Cleanup crew consists of 2 turbos, 3 pretty active hermits. I think they're doing their job pretty well.


Opinions, comments?

[kien]

What do you have in terms of livestock (and/or corals) in your 9 gallon display?
What are you lighting in your sump? You mentioned there is just live rock in there. Live rock doesn't need light unless you are trying to grow something? In my opinion Nitrates do not need to be zero to have a healthy and thriving saltwater system.

The magical product these days for reducing nitrates are "NP Bio Pellets". Do a search for them either in google or canreef search and you'll find lots of info. Your system would work well with a TLF phosban reactor with some NP Bio Pellets tumbling in there.

Your other options would be running a refugium with macro algae like Chaeto, and/or growing Mangroves. There's nothing wrong with these two methods, in fact they can work quite well, although I am not a huge fan of these approaches so I'll leave it to the proponents of those to chime in.

[digi]

What do you have in terms of livestock (and/or corals) in your 9 gallon display?
What are you lighting in your sump? You mentioned there is just live rock in there. Live rock doesn't need light unless you are trying to grow something? In my opinion Nitrates do not need to be zero to have a healthy and thriving saltwater system.

The magical product these days for reducing nitrates are "NP Bio Pellets". Do a search for them either in google or canreef search and you'll find lots of info. Your system would work well with a TLF phosban reactor with some NP Bio Pellets tumbling in there.

Your other options would be running a refugium with macro algae like Chaeto, and/or growing Mangroves. There's nothing wrong with these two methods, in fact they can work quite well, although I am not a huge fan of these approaches so I'll leave it to the proponents of those to chime in.

Thanks, I've updated the post to include my livestock.
I have a light in the sump because I have read a few places that having the sump light offest with the display tank helps keep a neutral ph level. I thought perhaps I could grow some micro-algae in the sump too... dunno.

[whatcaneyedo]

I don't see any mention of a skimmer. Do you have one?

[digi]

I don't see any mention of a skimmer. Do you have one?

No skimmer. Ive had nano reefs in the past - some people stay they may actually hinder your environment. Thoughts?

[intarsiabox]

How often are you doing water changes? Without a skimmer I would probably do 2-3 gal per week (15-20%) minimum. This is the best method I know of for reducing nitrates by physically removing them from the system and with only a couple of gallons it only takes 15min of your time. By all means you don't need a skimmer but IMHO with a small HOB model the benefits would far out weigh any negatives as the organic material in the water column is removed before it can break down into nitrates. With religeous water changes I don't think you need to worry about the amount of trace elements the skimmer removes (I'm assuming this is the negative part you are refering to). It sounds like you actually have your tank under control all ready and have a nice set up.

[digi]

How often are you doing water changes? Without a skimmer I would probably do 2-3 gal per week (15-20%) minimum. This is the best method I know of for reducing nitrates by physically removing them from the system and with only a couple of gallons it only takes 15min of your time. By all means you don't need a skimmer but IMHO with a small HOB model the benefits would far out weigh any negatives as the organic material in the water column is removed before it can break down into nitrates. With religeous water changes I don't think you need to worry about the amount of trace elements the skimmer removes (I'm assuming this is the negative part you are refering to). It sounds like you actually have your tank under control all ready and have a nice set up.

Indeed i have always been doing 2-3 gallon water changes per week.
If i were to add a skimmer, could I reduce my water change frequency? If so, how long could i go before my changes?

[intarsiabox]

I would still do weekly water changes but you could probably get away with only 10% changes. Really though, I don't think the extra 1.5 gallons a week is going to save you a fortune or be any less of a chore. A skimmer would improve your water quality either way but it is really up to you. As long as bio load isn't great your current regime should be fine. The reason I advocate weekly water changes no matter the volume is that I find personally that I start losing interest in the tank if I start slacking off on the maintenance. Weekly changes go to bi-weekly to monthly, algae starts growing and the tank looks a mess and then people get fed up and get out of the hobby. I only have a 25 gal nano and I never need to put more than 2 hours a week into it for water change, cleaning glass and lights, clean skimmer, clean HOB filter and check parameters. On small volume tanks one extra week between maintenance can make a visible difference to your rock and live stock skimmer or no skimmer. I think you are striving for perfection which is great but I wouldn't stress over it and let your livestock tell you if they are happy or not.

[digi]

I would still do weekly water changes but you could probably get away with only 10% changes. Really though, I don't think the extra 1.5 gallons a week is going to save you a fortune or be any less of a chore. A skimmer would improve your water quality either way but it is really up to you. As long as bio load isn't great your current regime should be fine. The reason I advocate weekly water changes no matter the volume is that I find personally that I start losing interest in the tank if I start slacking off on the maintenance. Weekly changes go to bi-weekly to monthly, algae starts growing and the tank looks a mess and then people get fed up and get out of the hobby. I only have a 25 gal nano and I never need to put more than 2 hours a week into it for water change, cleaning glass and lights, clean skimmer, clean HOB filter and check parameters. On small volume tanks one extra week between maintenance can make a visible difference to your rock and live stock skimmer or no skimmer. I think you are striving for perfection which is great but I wouldn't stress over it and let your livestock tell you if they are happy or not.

My livestock appears to be thriving (minus alveopora - different issues - damned thing). I would like to aim towards growing a small amount of SPS in the future... therefore I'll have to resolve my nitrates issue - 5-10ppm at the moment.

I'm surprised nobody has gone with my suggestion of a fuge. I'm really leaning towards building a 5 gal one at the moment. Comments?

[kien]

My livestock appears to be thriving (minus alveopora - different issues - damned thing). I would like to aim towards growing a small amount of SPS in the future... therefore I'll have to resolve my nitrates issue - 5-10ppm at the moment.

I'm surprised nobody has gone with my suggestion of a fuge. I'm really leaning towards building a 5 gal one at the moment. Comments?

Although it is a "nice to have", zero nitrates are not a requirement for growing SPS. There are a lot of nice SPS tanks out there with low (non-zero) nitrate levels. I guess what I'm trying to get at is, don't beat yourself up for having a little bit of nitrates.

Now having said that, if you are set on trying to achieve zero nitrates then yes, building a 'fuge to grow macro algae is one approach which a lot of people employ and works well enough. Anyway, it sounds like you really want to do it so go do it :)

[Madreefer]

You can build a fuge with an Aquaclear filter that will hang off the back of your sump. But i'm not sure if it will be good for macro algae, but they work good for pods. Not too sure if there is a post on this site for that.

[fishytime]

a fuge may be helpful......have you given any thought to running the NP bio-pellets?

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

I would suggest trying our NpX-Bio Beads (http://www.oceaniccorals.com/store/index.php?_a=viewCat&catId=56), they are a better value than the NP brand with equal or even better effectiveness. You may also want to try some of the NpX-Xtra Beads once we are finished the testing, the Extra version have an increased nutrient reduction capability.

I don't think a Refugium is the answer here, you are better off using a media based bacterial driven denitrification regimen.

Ian
O.C.

[intarsiabox]

I phosban reactor with nitrate reducing media could definetly be used but unless your tank is overloaded I don't see how you would have high nitrates while doing a 20% water change every week. Have you tried a different test kit? Thye are not all created equal and maybe you don't have any problems at all. If your corals are happy then I would say you're doing something right. Do you use Prime with your water changes? It claims to neutralize nitrates along with declorinating the water. I ran a fuge on a larger tank for about a year and didn't see any difference in the tank but it was good for growing food in. Blue World is having another Frag Fest this summer and you can probably pick up some SPS frags for cheap.

[fishytime]

I would suggest trying our NpX bio beads,they are a better value than the NP brand with equal or even better effectiveness. You may also want to try some of the NpX-Xtra Beads once we are finished the testing, the Extra version have an increased nutrient reduction capability.

I don't think a Refugium is the answer here, you are better off using a media based bacterial driven denitrification regimen.

Ian
O.C.

Hey great Idea.....why didnt I think of that........ but are these really NP pellets or just some re-named knock-off????????

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Hey great Idea.....why didnt I think of that........ but are these really NP pellets or just some re-named knock-off????????

Whats your freaking problem? Why do you find it necessary to slag everything we do? I understand you work for Red Coral and maybe you are just a little jealous of some of the things we are able to accomplish but I find it extremely childish to keep poking with no just cause.

Our Bio Beads are exactly the same product as the NP brand and happen to be cheaper, I am sure there are some people here that appreciate this fact. Anyways, I think the recess bell is ringing you better get back to class..........

:rolleyes:

[fishytime]

someone woke up on the wrong side of the tank today.........my post was offered as advice and a suggestion.......yours was a sales pitch.....if you want to advertise your product, do it in your vendor forum......thats my problem....

[Madreefer]

someone woke up on the wrong side of the tank today.........my post was offered as advice and a suggestion.......yours was a sales pitch.....if you want to advertise your product, do it in your vendor forum......thats my problem....

I somewhat agree. Kind of surprised the moderators have'nt suggested that the daily sales pitches be kept to the vendor forums. None of the other vendors do it.

[whatcaneyedo]

Did I completely miss something here? I've always read that you need to run a skimmer if you're going to organic carbon dose. He doesnt have a skimmer and barely has a nitrate problem. The simple addition of a skimmer would likely reduce the nitrate levels in his tank without having to carbon dose. Plus isnt carbon dosing without a skimmer really dangerous?

"Well if it sounds so great, why can’t I just start dumping vodka/organic carbon into my system? Before running to the liquor cabinet, the simple answer is overdosing can cause serious and detrimental effects to the reef system. To help circumvent this potential issue a dosing regimen along with some basic equipment is needed. The absolute must is the requirement for a powerful skimmer. People that have reported beneficial results using this method all have had strong skimmer and report a change in skimmate from a light brown to a strong odiferous black sludge. This makes a good skimmer a key requirement and important for two reasons:

1. Gas exchange. The increased bacterial biomass and growth will decrease your dissolved O2 levels in the water column. Too much vodka can result in a drastic decrease of O2 and can cause stress to your reef inhabitants, if not death.
2. Exporting bacteria/macromolecule mass. Vodka addition results in lower NO3 and PO4 levels. You will want to export the incorporated nitrogen and phosphates that you are cultivating by organic carbon dosing. Efficient skimming allows such removal."
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

It was not just a random "sales" pitch but instead a alternative to the more expensive NP brand that was recommended by others in this thread. If someone wants to pay more then that is up to them. Our brand is now available from half a dozen canreef sponsors and not just us.

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Sorry digi, I didn't mean this to be hijack to your thread, shoot me a pm as I have something for you to try.

[Zoaelite]

In a tank that small I would stay away from Biopellets, as whatcaneyedo has so expertly stated you run to many risks as you are running a smaller water volume without a skimmer.

Back to your original question, I think a fuge would make an excellent addition to your tank. Not only do they provide great places for the culture of micro life but with the use of microalgae, mangroves and a DSB you can completely eliminate nutrients from your system (The natural way :smile:). A 10g tank drilled will a 5 inch sand bed and a clip on light is cheap and looks amazing alongside a reef tank.

[digi]

In a tank that small I would stay away from Biopellets, as whatcaneyedo has so expertly stated you run to many risks as you are running a smaller water volume without a skimmer.

Back to your original question, I think a fuge would make an excellent addition to your tank. Not only do they provide great places for the culture of micro life but with the use of microalgae, mangroves and a DSB you can completely eliminate nutrients from your system (The natural way :smile:). A 10g tank drilled will a 5 inch sand bed and a clip on light is cheap and looks amazing alongside a reef tank.

No worries on the hijacking.

I appreciate everyone's comments... although I'm sure pellets and such would work, I'd rather stay away from reactors, and dosing - I know very little about that subject.

Sounds like its boiling down to these two options that are best suited for me:

1. A small skimmer or
2. A fuge.

I'm aware of the potential con's of a skimmer, but is there any con's that can come with a fuge? In my setup it'll be quite easy for me to implement, so I don't see that as a downside. On the other hand, I have seen some reports of fuge's being entirely unsuccessful though, and only to be a source of growing live food... this leaves me confused :sad:

[whatcaneyedo]

The only general cons to refugiums growing macroalage that I can think of are that they take up a bit of space and require additional lighting... not a big deal for most setups.

However the type of algae that you choose to grow could have some negative effects on your tank. While caulerpa grows quickly and is wonderful for exporting nutrients it is known to yellow the water, release chemicals that stunt the growth of stony corals and potential go sexual and nuke everything. Chaetomorphia is relatively safe but like Caulerpa you don't want any getting into your display tank because once it takes hold on your rocks it is very difficult to get rid of. Gracillaria is my favorite... except that it doesn't grow worth a damn for me. None of them do anymore. I think the GFO I'm using works a little too well and that I need to cut back.

[Zoaelite]

Small nano skimmers tend to be pretty inefficent so If I were you I would go 100% fuge. The only possible problems you could run into stem from a DSB getting mixed up or certain macro algaes going sexual on you but as both of these are easily avoided you have nothing to worry about.

[intarsiabox]

I stated earlier that when I added a refugium to my tank there was no change in water quality or livestock health but I was using a skimmer long before I added the fuge so my nutrients were already being taken care of. Don't be discouraged from adding a fuge, it probably would help your tank but again I really don't think you have a problem. If you are thinking of a HOB skimmer here's a list of 3 inexpensive but good performing units: Octopus HB1000, Warner Marine H1 and the Eshopps PSK-75H. I have been using an Aqua-C Remora on my nano and it does an OK job but not exceptional. There's also the Deltec 300 but it is very expensive.