Is this Dino's?

[Werbo]

Are these Dino's?

[intarsiabox]

I think it looks like cyano-bacteria to me.:question:

[Zoaelite]

You mean dinoflaggeletic algae? If so I would say yes, how old is the tank?

[Werbo]

I have been battling this reoccuring brown string algae for over 3 months now. I have syphoned the sand bed and blown off the rocks numerous times only for it to return within days. 10 days ago I syphoned out the sand bed and took pictures April 26 and tonight. Stuff is on rocks and glass as well.
Other characteristics:
- Snails become lethargic, are constantly falling off the rocks and eventually slowly die
- little air bubbles sometimes develop
- no nitrates or phosphates according to salifert test kits
- alk 9 dKH, cal 420ppm and mg 1400 ppm
- tank is 13 months old
- 3 days of complete darkness did very little.

Or is this just really bad diatoms?
Any ideas?

[burrows14]

I had dino also. I got rid of it by not touchin it and cutting doen my lights to only 4 hours a day for one week and I also dosed with Seachem Stabillity to boost my good bacteria to help fight the bad. Havent seen it in 6 months now

[ReefJunkie]

Had the same algae problem as you pretty sure it's dino's. I did more water changes, lots of bastering and started on those NP pellets, after a month no more dino's.

[Werbo]

I have done similiar. About a month ago I started
- Brightwell Microbacter 7
- n/p pellets
- increased carbon
- boosted p/h above 8.3
- stopped my CA reactor (to increase ph)
- shortened my photoperiod to 4 hrs

Still nothing...

[Zoaelite]

That's very odd, well at least your on the right track. What are the tank dimensions and what kind of flow are we looking at?

[Werbo]

120 G - 4X2X2

2 mp40s at 80% on reefcrest mode

[Reefer Rob]

Have you tested for silicates... in your aquarium and in your tap water/RODI water.

[Bloodasp]

how old are your bulbs?

[Werbo]

Rob - thanks for chiming in.

No I have not tested for silicates. Is it a Salifert test kit?

I have changed 3 of the 4 filiters on my RODI within the last 3 weeks. I did not replace the filter on top (is that the membrane? i think).

Tyler

[Werbo]

My bulbs are 9 months old.
250 W DE
14K phoenix.

[Bloodasp]

Still has a bit of life on it, but i won't dismiss it as a culprit being that it's reaching it's lifespan. I would agree that it might be silicates, I have never tested for it so I wouldn't know what to recommend. The way I dealt with my Dino problem was increased flow closer to the sandbed and a goby.

[Reefer Rob]

Yes, Salifert makes a silicate test kit. From what I've read it's the place to start in your battle with dinos. Is it only on the sand? You could always go bare bottom :mrgreen:

[Werbo]

So if I test for silicates in my RODI and find high levels I replace all my filiters. But in my tank what is my next course of action?
In other words, what safely decreases silicates within a reef tank?

[Werbo]

This stuff is not just on my sand but on my rocks, overflow and glass as well. If I blow off the rocks it grows back within 12 hrs.

[Reefer Rob]

So if I test for silicates in my RODI and find high levels I replace all my filiters. But in my tank what is my next course of action?
In other words, what safely decreases silicates within a reef tank?

I've read forum threads where people have used aluminum oxide phosphate removers (Phosguard) and reported good results. Aluminum oxide absorbs silicates as well as phosphates. I know on RC aluminum is said to be a no no, but as far as I know that is unsubstantiated. In any case I would research it before I used it.

Test first, silicates may not even be your problem.

[burgerchow]

you need complete blackness in the tank for 3 or 4 days. Pitch Black, and don't feed during that time. Large motorcycle covers work well.

[Werbo]

Been 2 weeks. Still no progress. Got my PH up to 8.4 for a couple weeks now, syphoned out all dino's and did a 48 hr period of total darkness (towels). 3 days later dino's back in full force.

Todays tests were done at the LFS to insure my test kits at home were accurate. Today I tested for silicates in both my RO water and tank water. Test was extremely low (less than .03) to nothing. Nitrates and phosphates are still zero (never had any color register in my salifert tests).

Alk 9.5, Ca 450 and mag at 1400.

[Werbo]

Anybody have success stories with dino's.

[Zoaelite]

I'm a little baffled, sounds like we have covered all of the bases. There are no excess nutrients in the water column so you should have no algae growth. I would say that your liverock is leaching something back into your tank but your tests are showing nothing. Your flow is perfect, your lights are good, your not over feeding and your running the correct filters.

Interesting... Any odd additives you are using that might result in it?

[Werbo]

After the initial dino outbreak (4 months ago) I began the n/p pellets. I've had the n/p pellets running for 2+ months now. 6 weeks ago I began Brightwell Aquatics Microbacter 7 (MB7). Nothing has slowed down the dinos.

Nothing would be leaching from live rock as it is thourghly cooked. I had no algae or nitrate/phosphate issues in the first 8-10 months the tank was in operation.

[Werbo]

Anyone know of a product specifically designed to remove silicates from a reef tank? I bought ROWA-PHOS today as it is suppost ro remove both phospahtes and silicates.

Anyone know of something better for just silicates?

[christyf5]

Dinos are one of the biggest pain in the butt algaes to deal with, sometimes all the "tried and true" things that people do work for some but not for others. I know I tried everything people told me to: high pH, high alk, low alk, adding a refugium, increasing skimming, decreasing photoperiod, blacked out tank for 2 days, blacked out tank for 4 days (this just succeeded in killing most of the corals, SPS anyways), increasing magnesium, replacing the sandbed...the list went on and on.

I dunno what to tell you, sometimes its good to keep trying but other times, well, you just need to see the writing on the wall and tear the tank down and start over. I fought dinoflagellates for a year before I clued in that nothing I did was going to kill them. As a last ditch effort before I left the hobby I removed the sandbed altogether and powerwashed rock. I haven't seen the dinos since. Sadly, that is my "success" story.

[Werbo]

Christy - Thanks. Your pretty experience in this hobby as you have had many battles with many pests as I remember from your TOTM article. After 4 months I am beginning to feel like throwing in the towel. If i didn't have $800-$1000 in sps frags I'd give up but I'm not quite ready to give up yet. I may start doing more frequent syphoning and daily basting of the rocks.

At this point I am not seeing any progress.

[Zoaelite]

Don't quit, then the Dino's win :neutral:. Like Christy posted they have to be one of the most irritating ordeals you can go through in a reef tank, I would take her advice and eliminate the sand bed.

[christyf5]

Christy - Thanks. Your pretty experience in this hobby as you have had many battles with many pests as I remember from your TOTM article. After 4 months I am beginning to feel like throwing in the towel. If i didn't have $800-$1000 in sps frags I'd give up but I'm not quite ready to give up yet. I may start doing more frequent syphoning and daily basting of the rocks.

At this point I am not seeing any progress.

Do you have someone that can take your corals for a bit? After removing the sandbed and restarting the tank (if that is the route you choose to go) there is hardly a cycle. I found even with powerwashing my rock I didn't have a cycle at all, at least not a noticeable one. I would say you'd only need maybe a week or two before you could put the corals back.

FYI its my understanding that dinoflagellates don't use silicate, only diatoms do so silicates shouldn't be a problem in your tank and if you did have high silicates you would see diatoms flourishing everywhere.

[Werbo]

At this point I would be worried about spreading the dinos to the temporary tank. I remove all corals from the plugs and expoxy them directly on live rock so it is not easy to remove the corals. I've actually been considering that but the way the corals are encrusted it would not work very well.

I don't think it is the sandbed as I have syphoned it monthly.

[christyf5]

I didn't think the sandbed was the problem either, I only removed it as I was at my wits end and it was suggested first that I change from a "coarse" sandbed to a "sugar" sandbed. When this didn't solve the problem and it was suggested that I remove the sandbed altogether as that seemed to be the "fad" at the time, or at least the topic of major controversy (no sandbed, my god! what are they thinking?). At this point I had tried everything else, all my corals were dead and I was ready to chuck the whole thing, I had nothing to lose so I went for it.

[Werbo]

Something is feeding the dino's. Maybe it isn't silicates. Maybe it is (as Rob thinks). Silicate reading and TDS today was very low for my RO. Same with my display tank.

Hospital tank is something I have been considering. At this point some sps are in pretty bad shape. This is due to the extended blackouts and shorter photoperiod. Many corals are browning out. Most sps are still doing fine.

I have 3 sps that are slowly fading to white with color only on the tips (base is bleached). This began before the dino outbreak probably due to such low phosphates/nirates.

[Zoaelite]

What type of fish do you have and what sort of feeding regime are we talking about?

[Werbo]

120G tank
3 young tangs, 3 wrasses and 2 small percs.

Spectrum pellets daily (small pinch), nori 3-4 times per week and frozen food 2x week (1/2 a cube).

Definetely not overfeeding - if anything I'm under feeding.

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

120G tank
3 young tangs, 3 wrasses and 2 small percs.

Spectrum pellets daily (small pinch), nori 3-4 times per week and frozen food 2x week (1/2 a cube).

Definetely not overfeeding - if anything I'm under feeding.


I would suggest running a few pads of Polyfilter, the Poly pads to adsorb certain forms of silicates that will not show on the standard home test kit.

"Poly-Filter can sorb polymeric silicates . Collodial silicates exist in a flux state with a percentage of the particles sticking to each other and organic compounds or complex inorganic compounds which helps form the complex polymeric silicates. As the collodial silicates are converted over to polymeric silicates they are sorbed by Poly-Filter."

[Werbo]

Ian - thanks. That's a very interesting product.

[Reefer Rob]

Are the dinos harming your corals, or is it your attempts to rid your tank of them. Maybe its time to take a deep breath and slow down a bit. Remember to put your corals first, or you could loose them all!

Try the Rowa you just bought and see if it helps. Give it at least a month before you move on to something else. Something has to be feeding the dinos, its just finding out what it is.

I know, easy for me to say :redface: hang in there!

[Werbo]

Rob - Great advise. I basically came to the conclusion about a week ago that I should put the corals first.

Once the dino's appeared I didn't do anything for 6 weeks hoping they would run their course and die out (like diatoms). Corals had great color and growth. For those first 6 weeks, other than being unsightly, the dino's only casuality was that the snails were becoming lethargic, falling of rocks and slowly dying. The sps were fine.

I've come to the conclusion that this is gonna be a long battle. I read alot and their are many strains of dino's. Some are resistant to high PH. Other strains cannot handle high PH. Some are fueled by silicates others aren't.

I'll try the Rowaphos and see where I am at a month from now.

[fishytime]

gonna go out on a limb here and say that the pics look like diatoms to me, not dinos.........increase the flow to the lower part of the tank......any dry foods that go un-eaten will quickly dissolve into the water column and become food for whatever.......do you strain your frozen food?......

[BlueWorldAquatic]

Get your water tested by another sorce or LFS. You'd be suprised how many false tests happen.

Lighting and phospahtes are my guess, how long did you let the NP pellets run? I noticed a bit of brown algae about 2-3 weeks from starting them.

When were your bulbs last repaced/installed? Coral bleaching is due to lighting, low Iodine & Strontium

Another product I found that works for algae is PridiBio BioDigest, http://perso.ovh.net/~prodibio/index.php?file=produits&fc=detail&eau_id=2&id=3

Ken - BWA