Go Ahead, Spend My Money!

[Beverly]

This starts off as a good story turned horror story....

Bought 5 angelfish for my 72 gal bowfront 2-3 weeks ago and we really enjoyed their colour, vitality, and the way they used the rockwork for swimming in and out of. They ate with gusto PE mysis soaked in lots of Zoe and a drop of Garlic Xtreme twice daily, gnoshed on macroalgae and picked stuff off the rockwork all day.

Then, one came down with velvet and I started treating it with in-tank with reef-safe Rally. Two of the fish were near death yesterday morning, so I euthanized them (not with the rock though :eek: ). This morning, two more were dead, leaving the original fish with velvet still alive. Expect it to die soon leaving me with an empty tank :frown:

Don't actually think velvet killed some of the fish, and have no idea what did them in. All I know is that they are deader than a doornail :sad:

Water params this morning: ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all 0 ppm, temp 77 F, pH 8.15.

80-some lbs LR, 3" sandbed, two Hagen 802s with Quickfilters filled with foam for crud/nitrate export, soft corals doing well, 3 x 55w pc for light. No skimmer, no sump. Tank had been set up, cycled and fed for 2 months prior to introducing fish.

Am going to leave the tank fallow for 6-8 weeks so any pathogens will hopefully die without hosts. Will continue to feed and do regular maintenance on the tank. After that, though, I want more angelfish :cool:

The angel that we liked the most was the Singapore angel (Chaetodontoplus mesoleucus), so I would like to restock the tank around this particular fish. Any suggestions of other angels to be housed with the Singapore would be much appreciated. Hope to have 4-5 angels and no other fish.

Now, go ahead and spend my money on angels :biggrin:

[Jason McK]

5 Angels seems to me to be a lot of fish for a 72G. Could this have been the reason for there deaths?

J

[Mak]

What kind Angels do you have in there?

[smokinreefer]

so there were no fish in the system prior to the angels? is that correct?

how large were the 5 angels that were added? and they were all added at the same time, right?

did you use a net? j/k.

[Beverly]

J, They were all introduced at the same time. There were no territorial issues between them that I ever noticed, and we watched them a lot because they were all so cool and beautiful :cool:

Mak, the fish were:
- coral beauty (Centropyge bispinosus)
- half black (Centropyge vroliki)
- keyhole (Centropyge tibicen)
- Lamarck's (Genicanthus lamarck) -poor choice because of its adult size
- Singapore angel (Chaetodontoplus mesoleucus) - the largest fish I think the tank could handle

Any more questions? If, not, help me spend some $$$$$ :mrgreen:

[smokinreefer]

well i can definetly help you spend the money, i love nagels too, but with my recent bad luck with angels, we should probably try to see if these deaths are preventable.

how large were the angels? the angles you mentioned are usually available 3-4" size.how big were the ones you introduced?

how were you prepping the tank to get it through the 2 month cycle? you mentioned you were feeding the tank? how much were you feeding?

it is possible that the 5 fish introduced posed too much of a bioload for the tank to handle properly. that would be my first inclination.

[Beverly]

shao,

Most of them were 3" and slightly under. The Lamarck's was about 4". You are correct that there were no fish in the tank previously, only astrea and margarita snails for a clean up crew.

The tank had cycled long before the 2 months had passed. I had it prepped for more seahorses that wouldn't become available for quite some time. During that time, we decided fish would be a better choice in a tank that large. The angels were actually a birthday present for my husband, so the loss hits a little harder :sad:

After the tank cycled, fed the tank chunks of frozen food placed in two small drinking glasses at either end of the tank. When one chunk had disintegrated, fed another chunk. Had macroalgae to soak up the nutrients, but there was a good amount of algae on the glass that I kept cleaning off. Also did water changes every 2-3 weeks.

Have a pH probe and used it to monitor pH change while slowly accclimatizing the fish to the tank's water. Took about 1.5 hours to acclimate them in a 5 gal pail with powerhead.

As I said, checked params this morning to determine if the increased bioload had anything to do with their deaths. Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all were 0 ppm. After the fish were introduced, began to do weekly 15%water changes, filter cleaning, etc., so I was on top of maintenance issues.

Usually, I buy fish from the lfs that quarantines them for 2 weeks prior to sale to the public. Didn't do that this time. Almost never quarantine fish, either. Bad practice, I know, but over the years in a variety of reefs have only had a fish here and there die. Never had anything close to a complete wipeout like this until now :frown: Sh*t happens in all kinds of reefs for all kinds of reasons and this time it happened to us in this way, is the way I look at it. Still shaken up, though, but want to move forward when the time is right ...

What happened to your angels, and what kind were they? In how big a tank?

Would appreciate your stocking suggestions.

[smokinreefer]

well from your info the tank sounds like it was well prepared.
sorry for the losses, i know how it feels to loose fish unexpectedly and it is a downer.

as for mine, they were multibar angels. same as type as the one in my avatar. to make a long story short, they were new arrivals at the LFS, i didnt inspect hem for health close enough, idnt ask the store to hold them, i snatched them up and they died shortly thereafter, possibly a deep water acclimation issue, as well as overall health issue. oh yeah, they were in my 180.

anywho...i'm getting depressed again just thinking about it...

as for your restocking...i would be hesistant adding 5 angels, personally i dont think they will coexist very well in the long term, angels can be as demanding as tangs when it comes to conspecifics.

i would maybe try 3 and some other dither fish.

perhaps a singapore, flame, and lemonpeel (or bicolor). this combo would give a nice contrast of colors. or substitute one for a coral beauty.

maybe add a few small dither fish to the tank first, let them break in the tank and establish themselves before introducing the angels.

HTH, good luck with the restocking, and please do keep us updated.

[Beverly]

shao,

Sorry to hear about your loss. Sounds eerily similar to my own.

So you think only three angels would be a good choice for the long term. Respect that opinion and glad you offered suggestions of possible fish to choose from.

However, don't really want dither fish in the tank. Like to sit across the room from the tank and follow the movement of larger fish. Looked into possibly adding a tang, but all of them seem to get too large for a 72. Ah, well, several blue-green chromis can be a standby option, I suppose....

Any other suggestions for 4"-5" fish that are as mobile as angels and that will utilize the extensive rock structure would be appreciated.

TIA.

[Buccaneer]

A larger fairy wrasse would be nice and really colourfull too :cool:

[Beverly]

Rasta,

Don't know much about fairy wrasses, so did a search on them. Grow to about 5", males more colourful and larger than females, swim mid-tank.

Have you had one? Do they spend most of their time in plain view, hide in the rock, or will they swim in and out of the rockwork?

TIA :smile:

[Buccaneer]

Gold Aquariums had a couple on the weekend and if my QT tank was not occupied I prolly would have gotten one ... there are a few fairy wrasses ranging from peacefull to semiagressive ... I have extensive rockwork so it would be a good fish for me as they could be as bold or as reclusive as they shoose to be ... my six-line goes into the rockwork on one end and comes out again 8 ft away on the other side ( he has his own highways mapped out :cool: ) ... I think that any wrasse would appreciate the ability to hide if they want to and that makes them more comfortable swimming in the open too.

Cheers

[Bob I]

Eight feet :question: :question: :question: :question: What are the other dimensions Steve :question:

[Beverly]

Hmmm....

The subject of non-aggressive fairy wrasses got thinking about the marine betta (Calloplesiops altivelis) we kept in out 75, then in our 180. It was a great fish, though reclusive, that spent most of its time going from one cave to another. Adored that fish, but am not sure it would be compatible with a small group of angels :sad:

How about this configuration:

- a Scott's fairy wrasse (Cirrhilabrus scottorum)
- a marine betta (Calloplesiops altivelis)
- a Singapore angel (Chaetodontoplus mesoleucus)
- a flame angel (Centropyge loricula)
- and something else (Species unknownus)

The two angels would not be conspecific which would reduce aggression.

But don't know what the something else could be. Any suggestions on this arrangement?

TIA :smile:

[Quinn]

Why not a swissguard basslet, Liopropoma rubre, a shy little fish that I expect would do well with the betta.

[Beverly]

Quinn, you have taken my "spend my money" to heart :biggrin: Looked up the basslet at MDL and it's only $88US :eek: Will probably pass on that one.

Am going to rethink the betta. It really may not do well with fast swimming angels, unless it's added first so it can get the lay of the land down well.

BTW, only one angel remains, the keyhole. I have stopped medication and put in carbon for 24 hrs to remove whatever meds were still in the tank. The loss of so many fish has me confused as to whether I want it to live or die at this stage :confused: OMG, what a mess :frown:

[Aquattro]

Quinn, you have taken my "spend my money" to heart :biggrin: Looked up the basslet at MDL and it's only $88US :eek:



Bev, only $69 at J&L

[Quinn]

How about a butterfly fish. I know there are a few that might do alright in a reef. Also depending on whether you're skimming this tank, you could consider a dwarf lionfish perhaps.

[Beverly]

Brad,

Plus shipping, it'll still be for an arm and a leg :mrgreen:

Now that you've chimed in, how would you spend my $$$$ to stock this 72gal bowfront:

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/72gal-tank-3.jpg

Quinn,

Yes, a butterfly might be lovely. Most of them are hard to feed, plus they get large, don't they? Did you have one in particular in mind?

Dwarf lions are too hard to feed. Actually killed one a few years ago trying to get it to eat :cry:

[Mak]

I vote for a Butterflyfish they're supposed to only get around 6" :cool:, even though a Majestic Angel would be nice, maybe a little on the big side(12") . I really like the Racoons, a Latticed(Raffles) is very nice as well or how about a Saddleback :cool: :mrgreen: .

[Old Guy]

My butterflies would clean that tank out in no time. All looks like prime rib. :lol:

FYI Jason- saddlebacks grow to about 8". Not really suitable for a 72.

I have a yellow tang in a 65 gal. Seems happy considering its been in a 3 foot tank for about 6 years.

[Beverly]

My butterflies would clean that tank out in no time. All looks like prime rib. :lol:

Most of those corals are mushrooms, with some green and brown star polyps, a devil's hand leather, and the ever-lovin' stalk pulsing xenia. The angels tried them but didn't eat any. Butterflies, such as a pearl scale, would still eat all those yucky softies?

[Mak]

Sorry, I didn't pay any attention to that pic :redface: :mrgreen: . Yeah, most of those softies will probably get eaten. I'm still experimenting with what I can and cannot keep with my Butterflies, I'll try a frag at a time :mrgreen: . So far they've left alone a Kenya Tree, Ricordia and my large green fuzzy mushrooms. They have eaten Polyps, blue/purple mushrooms and Frogspawn.

[Old Guy]

My butterflies will eat everything but ricordia. They use to farm the tops off some anthelia(sp?) that Smokin" gave me but after awhile they couldn't wait for it to grow anymore and devoured it all. I have some blue mushrooms stuck deep in a hole in the rock that have developed a fear it seems to venture forth and prosper. My 6 butterflies seem to like to farm them as well. I now know mushrooms are virtually bullet proof. :biggrin:

[Beverly]

Old Guy,

What butterflies do you have, in what sized tank, and what do you feed them? I was feeding our angels PE mysis which they devoured like crazy.

[Quinn]

There are a few people in Calgary with copperbands in reef tanks, however those are mainly SPS tanks I believe, I'm not sure how they'd fare with softies. As far as size goes, some of your angels will get far larger than any butterfly given time. And as for the lionfish, I would just make sure it's eating at AI before bringing it home...

[Buccaneer]

Eight feet :question: :question: :question: :question: What are the other dimensions Steve :question:

96W X 24D X 31H :mrgreen:

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=94&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

[AI Man]

Sorry to hear about your loss Bev. :frown:

Shao, as to your Multi-barred Angel, I find they are often difficult to feed.
Next time try thawed clams still in their shell. I've used this many times to convert difficult angels and butterflyfish. It gives them the protein and fat needed until I can get them feeding on a wider variety of foods. The downside is that it is raw seafood that has not been sterilized and may introduce disease or intestinal worms into the tank. It's a shame you lost your 1st one as I understand it was doing well until your tank move.

As to the fairy wrasses(Cirrhilabrus sp.), they range from 6cm to 11cm with a few reaching 15cm. The Flasher/Filament wrasses(Paracheilinus sp.) are a bit smaller on average Most being 6.5cm to 8.5cm with a few reaching up to 10cm. Females are more drab but similar to Anthias they will "change" to males. Their behaviour is sometimes similar in that some species operate as harems, In some species males swim together in aggregations. I find that they display far more often as a group and different species can be mixed. It's exciting to watch, they will stand vertically and display their beautiful finnage. I've even seen them display to similar sized and colored anthias.
The aggression doesn't seem to go further than that with the smaller species.

They are shy and often hide for the first day or so, getting bolder with time and spending most of the daytime in the open. They are greatly stressed by shipping but are quite hardy once acclimated. Feeding is easy and should be done often as they can be quite active (Mysis,enriched brine, etc).
They are peaceful and totally reef safe. They add little bioload and do well in groups.

People always ask me for color, I suggest them and they often pass as they are often small 5-7cm. I guess the colors don't jump out when they aren't flashing their fins. The two in our reef are very attractive and I intend to add more.

I currently have
Paracheilinus filamentosus- Filamented flasher wrasse (orange variant)
Cirrhilabrus lubbocki- Lubbock's fairy wrasse
Cirrhilabrus filamentosus- Whip fin/Yellow fin Fairy Wrasse
Cirrhilabrus joanallenae- Pulauweh Fairy Wrasse big black blue ventral fins
Cirrhilabrus jordani- Flame Wrasse I have 1 male and 2 females
Cirrhilabrus scottorum- Scott's Fairy Wrasse - red spot variety

My six line chased them for the first 3-4 days and now seems to ignore them.
- a Scott's fairy wrasse (Cirrhilabrus scottorum)
- a marine betta (Calloplesiops altivelis)
- a Singapore angel (Chaetodontoplus mesoleucus)
- a flame angel (Centropyge loricula)
- and something else (Species unknownus)

Not a bad setup but, I think you will find the Marine Betta hides allot.

Yes some butterflies get big but most are around 5". Some are up to 9"or even 11".

[Old Guy]

Hi Beverly,

At the moment I have 4 Pakistani, 1 Klein's and 1 saddleback in a 90gal with an Ornatus wrasse,a flame angle and a mimic tang. All are still juvie's with the largest around 4". They soon will be in a new 230gal. :mrgreen:

I would like to say that I set up the 90 in July 02 with the sole intention of keeping a school of Pakistani's. It has a 130lbs of live rock that I seeded with polyps, zoo's, xenia, anthenia, and shrooms from my reef tank. I wanted to be sure they had some natural food for maximum survival rate. As it was, I still lost 1 that came with 1 eye. Couldn't see the flame coming I guess. By the time they had munched down all the softies, the flame had tought them to eat. Now they eat anything I throw in the tank.

I feed them something different everyday. From flake to frozen. I eat a lot of seafood and when I do they do. Last night it was scallops :biggrin: yummy.



Jeff

[Beverly]

Thanks for all your opinions. I'll let you know in a couple of months what I put into the 72 gal :smile: