Electrical woes...breaker box what??

[Myka]

Please help me figure this out.

Right now my whole tank is on one breaker. 14 plugs into one wall outlet (powerbars) with no GFCI. I know this is asking for trouble. :eek:

My breaker panel says 70 amps. If I add up all the breakers on the panel they total 280 amps, plus one that is unlabelled. There are three blank breaker spots. I would like to put two 15 amp breakers running to two GFCI wall outlets dedicated to my reef. Do I have room on my panel to do this, or am I looking at adding a sub panel?

Jeez this hobby gets expensive quick. :neutral:

[bvlester]

What you are looking at is 70amp main breaker which means you can only have a total of 70 amp draw on those breaker. The one outlet on that wall is probably connected to other outlets or lights as well. I was talking to a inspector a week ago and he was saying on a 15 amp breaker you have to limit the draw to less than 2000 watts other wise you can have troubles. especially with older wiring, he also said that under the electrical code they go by the number of potential outlets and lights on a circuit and not the draw on the circuit.
I think he is right to use the draw on the circuit it does make since. As for do you have room well if you take the outlet that is on that wall out and remove the line and run 2 new dedicated lines to the panel you should be OK. I would look at upgrading the panel to a 100 amp at the least in the near future if possible I would go to a 200 amp service which would mean a new panel and a rewiring of the panel. Also I found out if you don't have a GFI on the tank circuits your insurance will be void if a fire is caused by a short in that circuit. You have to by electrical code have a GFI on outlets that are withing 1.5 meter of water. They will have to pull a permit to do the job and ask how much it would cost to upgrade to atleast a 100 AMP service. My mom is doing it and she has to move her mast and panel. 3000.00 you get it all back in value to the house.

Bill

I hope this helps, I would have a electrician take a look at it if you are not sure. They can do the calculations for you and give you a estimate on doing the work and then your house is covered.
Bill

[outacontrol]

. I was talking to a inspector a week ago and he was saying on a 15 amp breaker you have to limit the draw to less than 2000 watts other wise you can have troubles. especially with older wiring,

Bill

I hope this helps, I would have a electrician take a look at it if you are not sure. They can do the calculations for you and give you a estimate on doing the work and then your house is covered.
Bill

A regular outlet can only support 1440 watts max continous load

[Myka]

I am at about 1100 watts on that outlet. Maybe up to 1250, as I'm not sure the wattage on my Tunze 6055, Tunze Osmolator, Drew's dosing pumps. This is taking the watt ratings off the equipment, not actual readings. I know most stuff will actually draw a different number than is printed.

Here's my list (number) totalw:

Electronic ballasts (x2) 500w
T5s (x2) 108w
Heaters (x2) 300w
Skimmer pump 45w (I think)
Return pump 140w
MJ1200 (x2) 40w
MJ400 (x2) 10w
Koralia 3 10w
Fan ?
Tunze 6055 up to 18w
Tunze Osmolator
Drew's Dosing pump (x2) ?

[bvlester]

there you go the answer you need to have.
I am not an electrician just passing along what I was told by an inspector maybe he was referring to a 20 amp breaker, I don't know but he did say 15AMP. My house has been inspected many years ago.
I always refer to the professionals as they know what they are doing. Kind of let Telecommunication stuff I know electricians don't know what i know about it they get the color code mixed up all the time. I have had to fix things that electricians have messed up many times. It's not their fault they have not learned this stuff they should be humbled and pass the telco stuff on to people that know what they are doing. I am straight up if i don't know I say i don't know, I do not pretend to know some thing that I have no knowledge about. That just gets people hurt I was working for a company that was riddled with people getting injured for no reason just stupidity and plain laziness. People doing jobs they know nothing about and people standing in the wrong place, things like that.

Notice I referred to the professionals.(I hope this helps, I would have a electrician take a look at it if you are not sure. They can do the calculations for you and give you a estimate on doing the work and then your house is covered.)

the other thing I am getting at do you know for sure that your tank is the only stuff on the circuit? Do you know where or not that line is not tied into some thing else.
Bill

[Myka]

Bill, I know it is cheaper to add a sub panel than it is to upgrade the current one. I am told it would cost about $300 to get a sub panel put in.

[bvlester]

Ya but will they change the mains to 100AMP? IF they can just change the Mains then that will cost next to nothing also.

Bill

[Myka]

I don't get it... do you mean the line from the street to the pole needs to be changed? I was under the impression that you can pull out the old 70 amp panel, put a 100 amp (or whatever) panel in, and voila. Not so? I thought it worked like an outlet does...you can draw whatever the panel itself is?

Oh.....one thing I just remembered...there are 3 or 4 other outlets on that same breaker too. The dehumidifier is on a different outlet, but same breaker. For some reason the whole bathroom is also on that breaker (can't blow dry hair when halides are on), and the kitchen's ceiling lights. It is a 20 amp breaker.

[Electric eel]

If you have space in the main panel (which it sounds like you do as you said there are 3 spaces empty) then go ahead hire an electrician to install 2 dedicated circuits from your main panel. At this time do not worry about the 70 amp main. If you have not tripped it then don't worry! Save your self the money (spend it on fish stuff!). If it does trip then it would be time to look at a new service and 100 amps would be plenty. Don't forget to install the GFI plugs!!!!! 1440 watts on a 15 amp circuit is correct.

James
Certified electrical contractor

[Myka]

Thanks for your reply James. We haven't tripped the main breaker, just the one the fish tank is on if I try to blow dry my hair on the same breaker.

That breaker is a 20 amp breaker, so would it be safe to assume I can have around 1900 watts on it at any given time? Is that all wall outlets combined on that breaker, or 1900 watts on each wall outlet of a 20 amp breaker?

[reefermadness]

watts are simply amps x volts. Usually you only want %80 continuous load on the circuit. So...20 x 120 = 2400 x .8 = 1920. So yes around 1900 watts is safe for a 20amp circuit.

If you are fine with the way the electrial works at the moment and just want the protection of a gfi at minimal cost you could just install the GFI recpticle where your fish tank is all plugged in.

[banditpowdercoat]

I would not run 20A(1900W) on that circuit though, without verifying that there is 12ga wire. 20A plugs are different than other plugs, one blade is sideways, and verticle. Alot of times, in older houses people will change a 15A breaker for a 20 because they were tripping the 15A. Theres a reason it was 15A for starters, because thats what the wire was rated for. If it's 14ga wire, and you run a 20A breaker, you can overload it and run the risk of an electrical fire...

But also, what was sead about adding the extra circuits is also true. As long as the main is not tripping. Even if all the slots are full, they make "piggyback" breakers that are 2 in the space of 1 so you can add more protected circuits.


If you upgrade the panel to 100A, the wire from the pole to the meter, and meter to panel will need to be upgraded as well.

[Myka]

Ah thanks guys, there is light as the end of the dark tunnel! Har har.

The wall outlets that is on this 20 amp breaker look like normal wall outlets. There are several 20 amp breakers on our panel. Good to know these are not "real" 20 amp breakers. I would be getting close to the 80% load on that breaker then.

I see what you mean about the piggyback breakers too, there is one of those on the panel holding two 15 amp breakers.

I do actually have a GFCI receptacle sitting on my fish shelf, but I am worried about it being too sensitive and tripping. I work out of province and the tank sitter only comes Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday so having it trip when no one is around would be bad. I would feel much better if I had two GFCI receptacles with half the equipment on one, and half on the other just in case.

I am going to plan to do some electrical upgrading on my next time off near the end of May.

[raceit]

Remember, the job of the breaker is to protect the circuit wires from overload, not to protect the devices plugged into the circuit.
GFCI plugs are cheaper than GFCI breakers.
Here in northern BC, some Insurance companies will no longer cover houses with main services smaller than 100 amps, thus forcing older homes to get a service upgrade.

Burke,
Electrical Contractor

[banditpowdercoat]

If your plugs are regular ones, then there should NOT be 20A breakers in there. A 20A breaker will continously draw 16A without tripping on overload. 80%. and 20A on overcurrent situations which is higher than what 14G is rated for 15A. 1A doesn't sound like much, but over time, it heats the wire, and breaks down the insulation. Either way, It's not good, not Code either.

[Myka]

Dan, I think pretty much every panel I have ever looked at has had some 20 amp breakers on it. Our panel has 15, 20, and 30 amp breakers.

Here in northern BC, some Insurance companies will no longer cover houses with main services smaller than 100 amps, thus forcing older homes to get a service upgrade.

Burke,
Electrical Contractor

Really? Wow, that's interesting. What type of costs are associated with upgrading to 100 amp service?

[DiverDude]

IMO, the only time you should see a 20A breaker is when you have 12GA or heavier wire on the circuit. Most homes are wired with 14GA which is fine for 15A.

There is no doubt that a 100A entry is a basic minimum these days and the value of your home will improve if you get the upgrade. And yes, they change the wire from the pole to your house to handle the extra current. The whole process involves a fair bit of labour and materials -hence the cost.

In a pinch though what I would do (and this is not necessarily ok by code but...) is to run a second circuit (wire and GFCI outlet) to near your tank and add an extra breaker to your panel.

[mike31154]

You should be able to look inside your panel and tell whether your 20A circuit breakers have a larger gauge wire than the 15s. Unless the wiring is very old, the specs are generally stamped on the insulation. As mentioned, 20A circuits need to be wired with 12 gauge wire to comply with code and keep you safe. If it's 12 gauge at the breaker, then it's probably safe to assume that wire run is all 12 gauge. Should be able to tell the wire gauge at the receptacle as well, by pulling it out. Just make sure the breaker is off before you yank out any receptacle on that circuit.

I'd recommend two 15 amp circuits for your tank (GFCI protected) vice one 20 amp circuit. That will give you 30 total and some redundancy for GFCI nuisance trips. Next time you're in a reno store, look for the book "Electrical Code Simplified". Should be around $12 to $15 and is well worth the money. Lots of great info and pretty understandable for most folks.

[bvlester]

Hi was just talking to a electrical inspector and as stated above 80% is right but a 70amp breaker may peek at 2000 watts with out tripping that would be a instantaneous Peck and a return to the 80% load. PB is also right about the wire gage. as far as just swapping out the panel that would all depend on the gage of the feed line into the house. if the line to the house is older it will most likely have to be replaced, have an electrician look at it.
Shell buzzy was on the radio last week and they are changing thing here in BC in the future. where as if a home owner dose any electrical work it has to be inspected or your insurance becomes void. I don't know how accurate what he was saying was as he was kind of being very general about it all. I am thinking it has more to do with the individual circuit that the person installs including electrical outlets. This because there has been instances where a home owner ran the neutral through the breaker and then the hot side became the neutral and houses have burnt down because of it. I've heard about this a couple of times. I have seem it once while a house I was thinking of buying was being inspected. that was a deal breaker right there and then as you have no idea what else was done incorrectly in the house or where it was gizmoed to gather.
I'd just rather a person get the profesinals to look into it.

As far as having a panel upgraded to 100AMP as i said my mom has to get it done but she also has to move her mast she told me they wanted some thing like 3000 to 3800. You get it all back in resale value as a upgraded panel is some thing a new owner does not want to pay for in most instances. On my moms line BC Hydro had already changed the line to the house so it is ready to move over to a new panel and mast, the new mast will be closer to the pole than the old panel. so I don't know if the charge includes that cable or not I am asumming that it does not.

Bill

[bvlester]

[QUOTE=banditpowdercoat;515390]I would not run 20A(1900W) on that circuit though, without verifying that there is 12ga wire. 20A plugs are different than other plugs, one blade is sideways, and verticle.QUOTE]

Hi BPC,
I didn't know that about 20AMP plugs I know that on equipment that we install in telcos the plug has a l shaped blade and you have top twist the plug in to make contact these can be 120 or 220 receptacles and they are orange I believe which indicate a isolated circuit. I do not install them a electrician does, then we go in a turn up the equipment and do our testing.


Bill

[mike31154]

http://s1rp4w.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p19OunER7c5qkuhgtsEzgkTdeTvk2kVZMbe70ABGPeJrh9SQ Xiym3juv9ATfdDiBcx7wd1G0FVSTEkljg9sCLSMHlGxMg3XFD/P1030326_stitch.jpg

[Myka]

Thanks for all the continued information. I found out the house was built in 1958, so it's pretty old! I haven't checked the panel yet to see what gauge the wires are.

Mike, the plan is to add two 15 amp breakers each running to a GFCI receptacle. The only reason I havent' installed the GFCI receptacle I have is because I am worried about nuisance trips. I work out of province, and the tank sitter only comes by Monday, Wednesday, and Friday

[bvlester]

one thing is sure I don't have any 20AMP breakers in this house but I do have a sub panel and 100AMP mains. I do believe that the mains were 70AMP before the sub panel was installed.

Bill

[mike31154]

Thanks for all the continued information. I found out the house was built in 1958, so it's pretty old! I haven't checked the panel yet to see what gauge the wires are.

Mike, the plan is to add two 15 amp breakers each running to a GFCI receptacle. The only reason I havent' installed the GFCI receptacle I have is because I am worried about nuisance trips. I work out of province, and the tank sitter only comes by Monday, Wednesday, and Friday

1958, that's about the same age as my old house! Built well structurally, but I've found some scary stuff with the electrical. I've been gradually doing upgrades to the wiring after hiring an electrician to replace the main panel. Much of the old wiring was the black 'tar' insulated stuff but I've replaced most of that. There are still a couple of wire runs that are two wire with no ground, very scary. Thankfully I do have a 100 amp service, but the old panel that I had replaced was totally full, no extra holes for circuits. In fact, the previous owners had to physically switch the wiring in the panel depending on whether they wanted to use the dryer or the air conditioner. We're talking a 220 volt circuit with very large gauge wiring here that had to be rewired every time the chosen appliance was required! Anyhow, I've got plenty of extra room for circuits now.

I can understand your reluctance regarding the GFCI receptacle. I ran my system without them as well for longer than I'd care to admit, but I now have two protected circuits running the tank components. I recall having the GFCI trip when one set of my T5HO lamps would switch on (or off) through the timer power bar. Not sure whether the culprit was the lights or the power bar, but I only use one set of T5s currently and there's been no problem. My 250 watt MH on magnetic ballasts & timers work like a charm, never a hint of tripping the device. The odd time the GFCI has tripped when I unplug the air pump running my skimmer but since I'm there when that happens it's not an issue. I'm not away that often either, so there's less of a chance of disaster due to a nuisance trip. They've never tripped on me unless I've unplugged or plugged a component in or the issue with the lights switching on the timer. They've always reset automatically after a whole house power outage.

[Myka]

Thanks Mike! How do you go about rewiring the house? Do you just leave the old lines in, and rewire going through the attic, and down through the top plates of the walls?

[DiverDude]

The way I did it was to rip out the walls :mrgreen:

If you're not up for that scale of job, then you can add circuits/outlets by either going up from the floor (helps if you have an open or hung ceiling in your basement) or, as you suggest, up, through the attic and down, which, IMO, is a lot more work.

Regardless of how you do it, it's not a lot of fun.

[mike31154]

Thanks Mike! How do you go about rewiring the house? Do you just leave the old lines in, and rewire going through the attic, and down through the top plates of the walls?

It's best to remove the old wiring and run the new stuff along the same run..... if possible. It really depends on the configuration of your house though. I have a bungalow (rancher?) so everything is quite accessible since the service panel is in the basement. The townhouse I had in Ottawa was a different story! A second level really complicates matters when you need to rewire. You're going to end up opening a wall or two for some of it. The wiring in my kitchen along the south facing outside wall is the 'scary' stuff I haven't replaced yet, since I'm still reluctant to tear those walls open. Getting ready to do a tank upgrade, so it will be happening soon I hope.

I had to tear out the ceilings in the finished part of the basement to replace much of the wiring, but that's okay since I wanted to redo them anyway. Once the ceiling tiles were gone, things were pretty simple. I've got some pretty good electrical training through my Air Force trade, so wiring a house is pretty straightforward. I did contract a qualified electrician to install the new Siemens breaker panel, but the rest of the wiring I can handle on my own. The contractor installed a new grounding plate/rod in the yard as well, since my old panel was simply grounded to the copper water pipes in the house. This was over 3 years ago now if I recall correctly and cost around $600.

I think I mentioned this earlier, but definitely get your hands on the book "Electrical Code Simplified (Residential)". It's published by PS Knight and is specific to each province, I think yours for Sask is green. The BC one is red. Either way, they're all based on the National Code with province specific amendments, which generally aren't all that radical, available at most Reno centers. I purchased mine a few years ago for $11.95, money very well spent even if you don't intend on doing the work yourself. The info in there is invaluable and quite understandable, hence "simplified". It will give you a very good idea of what lies ahead with regard to a rewire job. It will also show you how your current wiring stacks up against the latest code requirements.

[mike31154]

Thought I'd mention that the 'Simplified' book I have for BC includes an entire section on rewiring an existing house.

http://www.psknight.com/book1.html

Here are a couple of pics of what I found in my place...

Old Pushmatic load panel. Only had 12 circuits available and they were all used... and then some. The capped wires at the bottom are either the dryer or air conditioning cables which needed to be hooked up, depending on which appliance you wished to use... they go to the double breaker (2nd from bottom) to give you the 220volts required for large appliances.. I actually got a few bucks for that old panel at a local electrical contractor. It seems that the 'pushmatic' circuit breakers are in demand. They certainly no longer make them..

http://s1rp4w.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pq4gT7UHWu5FvTIbW_vpVRaGG0Rn0MtJQ8syDHaqWPaVOoNG IvEcPYcG_-5cA4Ga5Ce8Al3q5ZkezB52POQQOjfJlH9eV8uCD/DCP_0897a.jpg

Some scary old wiring I found in a switch box in the basement hallway. The insulation literally fell off some of the wires as I pulled the switches out. By rights, my house should have burned down years ago. Ironically, I understand it was built by a one time Vernon Fire Chief. But I think some of the subsequent owners did most of the 'unauthorized' wiring like the dryer/air con fiasco.

http://s1rp4w.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p6oGc6Bxf-qJRJuDD48jePak-QyTEwZYBYztXvK9IPleQTX0Eo8aJBERB_PZwql2HJD3fbXYhbK xngnYMYmNcohSh3MnuRn5B/DCP_2104a.JPG

[StirCrazy]

Hi was just talking to a electrical inspector and as stated above 80% is right but a 70amp breaker may peek at 2000 watts with out tripping that would be a instantaneous Peck and a return to the 80% load.

where as if a home owner dose any electrical work it has to be inspected or your insurance becomes void. I don't know how accurate what he was saying was as he was kind of being very general about it all.

I am thinking it has more to do with the individual circuit that the person installs including electrical outlets.

Bill

hey Bill you need to get this 2000 watts ouit of your head that is the recomended max contuinuious on a 20 amp breaker not a 15 or a 70 :mrgreen:

In BC you have needed a home owners permit which includes inspection for over 15 years. I have pulled about 6 of them over the uears and yes it is for replacing, moving or adding stuff. basicly anything except replacing switches and outlets with newer ones as thoes are covered as maintanace which you don't need a permit for. Now the only thing you can't to with a home owners permit is power a main pannel from the meter a real electrition has to do that, but you can install sub pannels.

oh and for shell bussy, take hime with a grain of salt. a lot of stuff he says is wrong.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Thought I'd mention that the 'Simplified' book I have for BC includes an entire section on rewiring an existing house.

http://www.psknight.com/book1.html




thats a good book, but you still need to knwo a little about wiring and electrical basics to understand it.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Please help me figure this out.

Right now my whole tank is on one breaker. 14 plugs into one wall outlet (powerbars) with no GFCI. I know this is asking for trouble. :eek:

My breaker panel says 70 amps. If I add up all the breakers on the panel they total 280 amps, plus one that is unlabelled. There are three blank breaker spots. I would like to put two 15 amp breakers running to two GFCI wall outlets dedicated to my reef. Do I have room on my panel to do this, or am I looking at adding a sub panel?

Jeez this hobby gets expensive quick. :neutral:

you got 3 blank spots you got room. don't be to concerned about the total amprage of the breakers compared to the main breaker, there is a formulae for how many breakers you need and then how much power would be drawn at any given time. if you have electric heat it is even worse.

you got two choices here, well 3 realy, pull a home owners permit and run two circuts your self if you are confadent in doing it as it can involve framing, drywall, ect skills in adition to the electrical.

option two, hire an electrition to run two 15 amp circuts, probably would cost 2 to 300.00 depending on how hard the run is.

and option 3, upgrade the box to a 100, or 125 or 200 amp box. or the most convoluted way would be to add a new pannel and power your old one as a sub pannel. this is the messiest way to go, puts pannels in two parts of your house, basicly a bandaid solution to a problem, but havign said that I installed a sub pannel instead of upgrading my main pannel because I would have had to do a bunch of other stuff to bring my mast and meter up to code which wasn't in my budgit. it would have taken a 1000.00 buck job to a 3 to 4K job. and in my case we are planning on doing renos in the future so at that time I will upgrade the service and main box.

If you use an electrition, call around get several quotes, asl about peermits as they are needed for adding circuts. make sure you see the permit and get a copy for your records.

Steve