View Full Version : Red Bug Treatment Journal
Boy did I burn my own @$$. :bad-word:
Last Sunday I received some frags from a friend. As I'm dipping (TMCC), and inspecting with magnifying glass I see red bugs. I briefly consider throwing the frags in the garbage, but then consider that my friend has put time, effort, and money into growing, fragging, and shipping these frags to me. So I go hunting through my fish room knowing I have an Interceptor pill hiding somewhere...20 minutes later I find the stupid thing.
I grind up a 23 mg pill and add 1/2 of a level Salifert spoonful to 2 gallons of water from the display tank. I put the frags into the Interceptor treatment for 1 hour, drain it off, and put them in fresh tank water in a plastic food container floating in my sump so I can check on them the next day for red bugs.
Next day I look in sump and the water is murky in the container and smells like dead frags. Oh, and the container is lop sided with the water contaminating my tank!! :mmph:
So I take the frags out, inspect...all dead. Ok, that's weird (I've done that same Interceptor dip like 50 times, but whatever I'm more concerned about the possibility of red bug contaminated water getting into my tank!
That was Monday morning. Today I'm looking into my tank, and notice some of my Acros are slimed up. Look closer...yup, red bugs got in there.
:bad-word: :bad-word: :bad-word: :bad-word: :bad-word: :bad-word: :bad-word:
They are absolutely PLASTERED all over one of my favorite Acros...of course it is one that is super encrusted and no way for me to remove it for a dip. I see them on three other Acros as well.
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Having never treated an entire reef with Interceptor, I would greatly appreciate those who are experienced with this to help me with my plan of attack.
Alright so here's the plan of attack...
For inverts I have; 1 Black brittle starfish, 2 Emerald Crabs, 7 snails, 2 Conchs, 1 Seahare (experiment against red turf algae), 1 Tuxedo Urchin. I will be able to catch everyone except the starfish, and I may or may not be able to catch the crabs. I believe the only critters that would succumb to the Interceptor are the emerald crabs. I know the snails will be ok, but not totally sure about the others. I have a 20g tank I can move these guys into as well as some cured live rock I can put in with them.
My tank is 90 gallons, plus about 15 gallons of water in the sump for a total of 105 gallons. Minus the live rock and sand, there is about 80-85 gallons net water volume. Each Salifert measuring spoon of Interceptor (32 mg pill) will treat 32 gallons. I plan to use 3 level spoonfuls for each treatment, and I will put a filter sock on the overflow drain for the length of the treatment.
Day 1 - Remove inverts and carbon. Turn the air intake off on the skimmer. Add Interceptor. Wait 6 hours. Do 25% water change. Add fresh carbon, turn skimmer air back on.
Day 5 - Remove carbon, turn skimmer air off. Add 2nd dose. Wait 6 hours. Do 25% water change. Add fresh carbon, turn skimmer air back on.
[I will be out of province starting May 2nd, so I will not be able to do a 3rd dose on Day 21, and my 2nd dose will be early on Day 5 instead of recommended Day 7. I know many people have success doing just one dose, and others fail miserably by just dosing once.]
Day 6 - Remove carbon, do 25% water change, add fresh carbon. Wait 6 hours. Put inverts back into tank.
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Questions:
- How much carbon would be required to remove the Interceptor dose?
- Will the brittle starfish survive the Interceptor? (my reading says he will probably survive)
- Will the conchs, Seahare, and urchin be ok?
- Will my RBTAs, clams, and Gorgonians be ok with the Interceptor? (my reading says yes)
- Is this the same dosage everyone else has had success with?
- Am I missing anything? :eek:
Chaloupa
04-26-2010, 02:01 AM
I have done the entire treatment a few times. The only ones I would be worried about would be the crabs and any hermits. They will not survive treatment but all others should. I just use 1/2 large dog tablet for my 150g. I then would add carbon 12 hours later and just put roughly 1.5 cups of carbon in a phosban reactor. Then 7 days later, I'd do it all over again, disconnecting the carbon before treatment. Leave all items on that circulate water as they "may" have redbugs in them.....
Honestly I have treated my entire reef 3 times (bad judgement on my part when buying frags or corals, I obviously don't learn by my mistakes LOL) and never had any issues.....
Chaloupa
04-26-2010, 02:02 AM
And really, I found it no big deal. Easy to deal with and easy to get over. HOWEVER others haven't done as well.....I have had NO problems following treatment with ANY of my treatments
After doing some more reading, I think I may try to find a vet that will sell me some Interceptor. Since I found this info, and it would be easiest for me to use slightly less than one whole pill from the green package:
Dogs 2-10 lbs (brown package) 2.3 treats 38 gallons
Dogs 11-25 lbs (green package) 5.75 mg treats 95 gallons
Dogs 26-50 lbs (yellow package) 11.5 mg treats 190 gallons
Dogs 51-100 mg (blue package) 23 mg treats 380 gallons
It is also to be noted that one Salifert measuring spoon of the blue package pills will treat ~32 gallons. So I have read many times anyway...
Thanks for your advice Chaloupa! I think I will take the Seahare out just in case since the Seahare alone can be lethal to the tank if he does die.
I then would add carbon 12 hours later and just put roughly 1.5 cups of carbon in a phosban reactor. Then 7 days later, I'd do it all over again, disconnecting the carbon before treatment.
Are you saying this is what you did, or are you suggesting this is what I do?
Chaloupa
04-26-2010, 02:39 AM
Thanks for your advice Chaloupa! I think I will take the Seahare out just in case since the Seahare alone can be lethal to the tank if he does die.
Are you saying this is what you did, or are you suggesting this is what I do?
This is what was recommended by "melev" on his site and it's the dose and way I've always done it. He has some fantastic info on his site, and I've emailed it with my redbug problems when I first got them. So.....that being said I've always done it that way, other than when I forgot one treatment on second dose to plug in the carbon until 24 hours later!!! And all was good! It's great when you can see them leaving the coral! Such a feeling of accomplishment! And you are very welcome. It's an easy thing to treat...now Acro Eating Flatworms...THAT is a very different problem all together!:biggrin:
Aquattro
04-26-2010, 04:35 AM
The dosage is based on the medication present in the largest tablets, so get one of those and cut about 40% off and use that. Turn air off on skimmer, but leave it running. Also, turn off your lights during treatment, it's photosensitive.
I just dosed my tank, half a tab, ran for 12 hours, then a bunch of carbon and turn the skimmer back on. Check for bugs.
PoonTang
04-26-2010, 04:37 AM
I too suspect that i have the dreaded little buggers but have yet to have a visual confirmation. I got some interceptor and have been doing a bunch of reading. Here is the info that I am going to go with. You can go with a dose as high as 23mg per 100g but far less is actually needed. I was going to personally going to go with 1/2 a pill. Shut off carbon and submerge skimmer air intake but keep it running. 24 hours later start up skimmer and carbon. Dont worry about a WC but it wont hurt. You must repeat the entire thing around 6-7 days later but 95% of the people report success after the first dose but there is always that chance. Some people do a third dose. Their Life cycle is as of yet unknown although it is thought to be 4 days and that they dont lay eggs.
Stones
04-26-2010, 06:24 AM
It isn't necessary to dose with interceptor more than once, so long as you use the correct dosage.
When most of the literature on red bugs was originally posted, very little was known about their life cycle. Since then, it has been found that red bugs are live bearers and do not have an egg or larval stage that could have been resistant to milbemycin oxime, the active ingredient in Interceptor. It was only suggested to do a 2nd and 3rd treatment with interceptor in order to kill off the 2nd generation of red bugs that could have possibly hatched after the initial treatment. Since we now know that red bugs do not go through such a stage in life, one good treatment with interceptor is enough to wipe them out of your reef.
Expect to loose 99% of your pod population along with all of your acro crabs, sally light foots, and emerald crabs. Hermit crabs are not true crabs and as such are not effected by the interceptor. Other inverts such as cleaner shrimps, peppermints, snails, and urchins should all be fine as well as the sea hare. If you'd feel better removing the sea hare due to their known toxicity upon death, it probably wouldn't hurt.
Hope the info helps.
christyf5
04-26-2010, 03:23 PM
How much carbon would be required to remove the Interceptor dose?
between the 25% waterchange and running carbon, most of the interceptor that will be effective will be removed and subsequent waterchanges will finish it off.
- Will the brittle starfish survive the Interceptor? (my reading says he will probably survive)
I'd give him a 50/50 chance. I've lost fromia starfish from the treatment, not sure about the brittle stars. Personally, I'd remove him.
- Will the conchs, Seahare, and urchin be ok?
Conchs and urchin yes, not sure about the seahare, I'd remove him if he's easy enough to catch.
- Will my RBTAs, clams, and Gorgonians be ok with the Interceptor? (my reading says yes)
Yes
- Is this the same dosage everyone else has had success with?
the 23mg tablet are the best bang for your buck. Don't worry about exact dosage, I used about 3/4 of a pill for 220 gal and a half pill for 100 gal. Basically whatever I have left after using little bits of the pill to treat 1-2 gallons for frags. Eric Borneman treated with up to 10x more than DustinDortons dosage with full success.
- Am I missing anything? :eek:
Not missing but suggestions. You likely won't have to do a second treatment if you treat longer. I run my treatments between 8 and 12 hours then carbon and waterchange. I try to do the largest waterchange that I can possibly do. The PE you'll see afterwards is pretty incredible and you'll wonder why you didn't notice how bad it was previously :wink:
Don't forget to keep your skimmer running and submerge the air intake.
Great info Stones!! I had printed out most of Eric Bornemans website but lost it and his website is done now, sadly.
saltynuts
04-26-2010, 03:28 PM
good thread.
Thanks for your info Christy. There is no way I can catch the brittle starfish. Even when I tore my tank apart to move it, I couldn't pry him out of the rock. So he's going to have to tough it out. I'm not entirely sure I will be able to get the Emerald crabs out either. I have read some journals that people have Seahares that do fine with the treatment, so I'm going to leave him in there. The more I think about it, I think I might just treat the tank as is...PITA to set up a tank just for a couple Emeralds that I might not even be able to catch. The little turds don't even eat bubble algae.
I have read other people leaving the treatment longer than 6 hours, so I think I'm going to aim for 10 hours, but I will watch the tank closely for signs of stress. Would be nice to have some pods at the end of this.
I was more worried about the carbon removing the Interceptor so it would be safe to put the inverts back. Now I'm not so worried...
It isn't necessary to dose with interceptor more than once, so long as you use the correct dosage.
When most of the literature on red bugs was originally posted, very little was known about their life cycle. Since then, it has been found that red bugs are live bearers and do not have an egg or larval stage that could have been resistant to milbemycin oxime...
Expect to loose 99% of your pod population along with all of your acro crabs, sally light foots, and emerald crabs. Hermit crabs are not true crabs and as such are not effected by the interceptor. Other inverts such as cleaner shrimps, peppermints, snails, and urchins should all be fine as well as the sea hare. If you'd feel better removing the sea hare due to their known toxicity upon death, it probably wouldn't hurt.
Hope the info helps.
Thanks for the info, but it does go against several other red bug treatment journals I have read. It seems other people are sometimes having troubles with only one treatment even though it seems they are using the correct dosage. I'm going to do two doses just to be safe, I'm beyond PO'd at having to do this to begin with, and killing off my pod population is not something I want to do again.
Also, I have read many journals that report both hermits and cleaner shrimp to die from the treatment, but it seems blood shrimp and Peppermints are ok (weird). Lots of people report emerald crabs dying as well as nuisance crabs in the reef that they didn't know were there. Haha!
New plan of attack...
I'm going to bump up the dose a little bit, but not as much as some of you guys on here have used. I will grind up the tablet, and dose 4 Salifert spoonfuls which should be enough to treat ~130 gallons.
Day 1 - Remove carbon. Submerse the air intake off on the skimmer. Add Interceptor. Wait 10 hours. Do 25% water change. Add fresh carbon, turn skimmer air back on. [Tank is due for a water change anyway.]
Day 5 - Remove carbon. Submerse air intake on skimmer. Add 2nd dose. Wait 10 hours. Do 25% water change. Add fresh carbon, turn skimmer air back on.
***First dose is going in in an hour.***
christyf5
04-26-2010, 03:51 PM
Thanks for your info Christy. There is no way I can catch the brittle starfish. Even when I tore my tank apart to move it, I couldn't pry him out of the rock. So he's going to have to tough it out. I'm not entirely sure I will be able to get the Emerald crabs out either. I have read some journals that people have Seahares that do fine with the treatment, so I'm going to leave him in there. The more I think about it, I think I might just treat the tank as is...PITA to set up a tank just for a couple Emeralds that I might not even be able to catch. The little turds don't even eat bubble algae.
I have read other people leaving the treatment longer than 6 hours, so I think I'm going to aim for 10 hours, but I will watch the tank closely for signs of stress. Would be nice to have some pods at the end of this.
I didn't see the massive reduction in pods that others have seen. I'd say I probably lost about 40-50%. There were a few dead ones floating around the tank but the overflow was still crawling with them. It certainly didn't worry me enough to do the treatment again (and again, I gotta be more vigilant and stop being so lazy about prophylactically treating frags, I got hit again just last week, lucky I caught it though).
Oh and I forgot to mention, I think the TMPCC/interceptor combo is prety hard on frags. I picked up a frag last thursday, it was covered, I thought I could get away with a double dose (read it somewhere, didn't work) as it was late and I didn't have time to be farting around with a 1hour interceptor treatment.. Then I figured I would just interceptor the frag in the bag overnight. In the morning it was looking pretty rough, bleached out and thin tissue in some places. I've never had problems treating with either TMPCC or interceptor alone before but I think the combo is not a good idea. The frag is slowly coming around but not a happy camper (and neither am I, next time I'll know to just suck it up and use interceptor).
christyf5
04-26-2010, 03:59 PM
New plan of attack...
I'm going to bump up the dose a little bit, but not as much as some of you guys on here have used. I will grind up the tablet, and dose 4 Salifert spoonfuls which should be enough to treat ~130 gallons.
Day 1 - Remove carbon. Submerse the air intake off on the skimmer. Add Interceptor. Wait 10 hours. Do 25% water change. Add fresh carbon, turn skimmer air back on. [Tank is due for a water change anyway.]
Day 5 - Remove carbon. Submerse air intake on skimmer. Add 2nd dose. Wait 10 hours. Do 25% water change. Add fresh carbon, turn skimmer air back on.
***First dose is going in in an hour.***
So if you have removed inverts and are worried about putting them back in, you could also change out the carbon 24h after the treatment. I used to do that but am pretty lazy with my interceptor treatments now (I didn't even bother with the WC on the last one until my regular waterchange day 3 days later).
Oh and good luck, likely you'll be more stressed than any of your tank inhabitants :razz: I know I always was at the beginning.
Thanks Christy! I didn't notice the red bugs until the frags were already in the TMCC so I didn't have much choice. I find TMCC on its own is often quite rough on the corals. The frags were in such a small container that it only would have taken a couple of them to start sloughing flesh enough to pollute the little container enough to kill off the rest.
In the future I will have a kind of QT for SPS frags...I am setting up a small Zoa/Paly tank (inc some LPS), so it will work well to house new SPS frags since there will be nothing in that tank they can contaminate.
I am SO frustrated!!! I'm leaving out of province in a week and won't be back until May long weekend. Now I have to deal with this stupid crap, plus I have to hook up the Osmolator and dosing pumps, and I don't have time!!!!!!!!
So...now I can't find that last tablet of Interceptor that I have. I had it in my hand a week ago. The TMCC is back where it's supposed to be, but not the Interceptor. Grrrr!!! Now I gotta go find a vet because none of the reef stores are open on Monday around here. Now my fish room is a mess because I turned it upside down looking for that weeny little tablet. This tank has really been picking my butt lately.
Oh for hell. :mad:
saltynuts
04-26-2010, 06:28 PM
so if a guy had np pellets. they would have to go too.
christyf5
04-26-2010, 06:58 PM
so if a guy had np pellets. they would have to go too.
I don't think so, I'd just keep them running. As a matter of fact, I did keep them running. I didn't see any change in performance (mind you I have yet to see them actually perform).
Aquattro
04-26-2010, 06:59 PM
so if a guy had np pellets. they would have to go too.
Not sure that's been tested.
Aquattro
04-26-2010, 07:02 PM
With my last treatment (last week) I added half a large tab. Turned air off on skimmer and removed carbon. I also turned the lights off. UV kills the meds.
After 12 hours, I added the carbon back, turned the air on and that's it. I'll maybe do my regular WC tonight. Lost my 1 acro crab, and don't have many pods to begin with.(which may be an entirely different thread one day).
I have used probably a 30x greater dosage for 4 hours in a QT tank on new frags, never had a problem.
I hate these little f'ers!
Well, I found a vet that would prescribe Interceptor for me. I will give the tank its first dose tomorrow morning.
Thanks Brad, it's good to know that OD'ing isn't a big worry.
I hate these little f'ers!
Agreed. They have done quite the damage on my favourite coral. It is mostly bleached out now with very thin tissue. :(
fishytime
04-26-2010, 11:44 PM
Sorry to hear about your issues Mindy:sad:.........hope the treatment process goes well for you.....
Thanks Doug. :( Btw, that tabling piece I got from you is growing like a weed. Awesome color to it...it's mostly purple now with just a bit of green base.
Ok, so 4 Salifert scoops of the 23mg tablet (blue package) went in the tank at 930 am, and I am already seeing some of the little bastards falling off. The only hitch in the giddy up is that I can't get my skimmer to run without air without overflow incessantly, so I just turned it off. It should get the skimmer treated when it turn it back on anyway, and I am doing two doses, so hopefully this won't cause me any issues.
saltynuts
04-27-2010, 03:45 PM
just take you collection cup off and let it overflow.
did you just dump the crushed pill in the tank ,or did you mix it in some water first.
I mixed it up in tank water before I dumped it in.
EDIT: Yep, that works with skimmer. It is overflowing now. =]
It has now been 9 1/2 hours, and I still see a few red bugs on the Acros. I also see one of my Emeralds and even though he is not acting normal (he isn't picking at the rocks like normal, he is just kinda hanging out) he is still reactive enough to pinch my tongs pretty hard.
I would figure the Emerald crab(s) would be dead by now, and I wouldn't be able to see any red bugs on the Acros???
I dosed what should have been enough for ~150 gallons based on the whole tablet from the blue package being enough for 380 gallons.
I did 2 doses on my tank a few months back. Lost a couple of emerald crabs and my acro crabs (that's what ticked me off the most - I love the acro crabs). But boy does it make a difference after the treatment. My most infected coral just perked up immediately and now it's one of my wife's favourite coral - the colour is great. There is light at the end of the tunnel Mindy.
Aquattro
04-28-2010, 05:10 AM
Even after they die, some will hang on. Swoosh them with a turkey baster and they should fall off..
Thanks Dez. All the corals and inhabitants look good right now. I didn't do a water change, I just put 250 mL carbon in. I will do a water change tomorrow morning. I saw the black brittle starfish, and he looks ok. The one Emerald crab that I can see still looks ok. The Seahare is oblivious (thank god). I do still see some red bugs, but they don't appear to be moving. I guess I will have to wait patiently for the lights to come on tomorrow morning to assess. :neutral:
Ok, thanks Brad. I was wondering if that was the case. I will blast them tomorrow. My eyes are tired from staring at the tank with a flashlight all day. :eek:
saltynuts
04-28-2010, 03:18 PM
how goes the battle
Thanks for asking. :) There isn't a red bug in sight this morning. The one Emerald Crab I can see is upside down and dead. I feel bad about that. I will check into the pod population. Corals, fish, and the rest of the inverts seem completely oblivious.
saltynuts
04-28-2010, 04:00 PM
Thanks for asking. :) There isn't a red bug in sight this morning. The one Emerald Crab I can see is upside down and dead. I feel bad about that. I will check into the pod population. Corals, fish, and the rest of the inverts seem completely oblivious.
good to here.
Just an update
The red bugs were nowhere to be seen for 8 weeks. Last Thursday I noticed my Alien Freckles Acro (the one most affected in the first infestation) was lightly covered in red bugs again. :mmph:
Of course this is a week after I added 8 Emerald crabs to my tank. I managed to catch 6 of the Emeralds and move them to a QT. I treated the tank with the same dose (4 Salifert scoops) of Interceptor. 12 hours later I did a 25% water change, and added 1/4 liter of fresh carbon to the reactor. The next day I put the Emeralds back. The next day I lost 2 Emeralds, and one got stuck moulting his shell and also died.
Last night one more Emerald died - a week later. Weird. So now I'm down to 4. Interestingly enough the 4 I lost were the small ones, and the 4 big monsters that are banned to my sump seem fine. Last night I noticed a few red bugs on that dang Alien Freckles Acro again. :neutral:
So I'm going to break off as much of the AF Acro I can (it is short growing and very encrusted), give it a 2 hour strong Interceptor bath, and put it in my Zoa tank. I will use a pipette with boiling water to kill the remaining part of that coral. I'm hoping I can get away without treating the tank again.
Skimmerking
07-11-2010, 10:40 PM
Wow that sucks a s s Mindy where did ya get the Frags from that sucks
Ya no kidding. So far these red bugs have cost me 2 Interceptor pills $30, and 6 Emerald crabs (two from first dosing) $60. Plus about 48 hours of worrying, and 4 hours of dosing, water changes, etc. Stupid bugs. Not to mention the loss of the frags to begin with - they were nice pieces. I got the frags from a fellow hobbyist.
turkleton
04-11-2012, 08:21 PM
So what is the verdict on how the interceptor affects hermit crabs?
Hermit crabs are not allowed in my tank, so I don't have first-hand experience with them. Most people claim no effect on hermits, but some people have had issues.
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