Frogfish + sandbed yes or no?

[fishoholic]

Is it better for a frogfish to have a sandbed or is it fine with a bare bottom tank? I'm in the process of setting up a 20 ish gallon cube tank (20x16x14) for a frogfish and I'm wondering if I should add sand or just leave it bare.

[naesco]

No a sandbed would get in the way.

After you feed your frogfish, live baby fish Scott Michaels says they make large piles of sh*t which is easy to remove. A BB would be better as you would see it easier I would think.

I havn't kept them though and wouldn't.
The idea of throwing in a live baby fish and watching the frogfish attack it is not appealing to me.

[karazy]

it all depends on a few factors.

first off bare bottom would be way easier to clean which is a plus.
but you have to consider how much rock you are putting in the tank when you are dealing with frogfish.
the reason being if you are doing lots of rock then bare bottom is fine because the frogfish can just hide in all the rock and be perfectly camoflouged.
but if you are not doing alot of rock i would suggest a sandbed as it makes the frogfish feel more comfortable.
in my frogfish tank i just have one small island in the middle and then big clumps of amcro algae growing everywhere. what ive noticed is the frogfish likes to try to camofloughe by going to the edge of a rock, digging himself into the sand a little bit and then huddling next to the rock so that he looks just like the rock.

just my 2 cents

[fishoholic]

I do want a lot of rock for him so I will leave it BB for now. I can always add sand later if I think he needs or would like it.

The frogfish I'm getting my friend has had for over a year, he puts small damsels with it and feeds pellets to the tank. My friend said he's never seen him eat, but every now and then a damsel goes missing :neutral: I'm going to do my best to convince Mr. frogfish that silversides are the most yummy things ever. However there are a few damsels (still in the tank with him right now at my friend's place) that will be coming along with the frogfish as my friend is shutting that tank down and has no where else to put the damsels. Not sure what to think of that but for now (It may be naive but it makes me feel better) I want to think Mr frogfish will leave the damsels alone and love the silversides, squid, mysis and clams etc. that I plan on feeding him and want him to eat. Either way I guess he wont go hungry :neutral:

[naesco]

I do want a lot of rock for him so I will leave it BB for now. I can always add sand later if I think he needs or would like it.

The frogfish I'm getting my friend has had for over a year, he puts small damsels with it and feeds pellets to the tank. My friend said he's never seen him eat, but every now and then a damsel goes missing :neutral: I'm going to do my best to convince Mr. frogfish that silversides are the most yummy things ever. However there are a few damsels (still in the tank with him right now at my friend's place) that will be coming along with the frogfish as my friend is shutting that tank down and has no where else to put the damsels. Not sure what to think of that but for now (It may be naive but it makes me feel better) I want to think Mr frogfish will leave the damsels alone and love the silversides, squid, mysis and clams etc. that I plan on feeding him and want him to eat. Either way I guess he wont go hungry :neutral:

Why don't you consider asking him to give you the damsels so you can take of them and have him euthanize the frogfish?
Sems like the ethical thing to do, right!

[Rogue951]

why would you want to euthanize the frogfish, it's a great species and not a common thing.
If he wanted to get rid of it then find another reefer willing to keep it.
Having the frogfish eat the damsels for food is a much better use of... the food chain than just killing the frogfish and throwing it away...
but this starts going into ethics.
to each their own. I have no problems with the food chain and one animal eating another.

[naesco]

why would you want to euthanize the frogfish, it's a great species and not a common thing.
If he wanted to get rid of it then find another reefer willing to keep it.
Having the frogfish eat the damsels for food is a much better use of... the food chain than just killing the frogfish and throwing it away...
but this starts going into ethics.
to each their own. I have no problems with the food chain and one animal eating another.

I agree to each their own. Rather than being burdened with the ethical issue she has with feeding baby damsals she should just let her friend deal with it.

[fishoholic]

Just so you know I really want the frogfish and am looking forward to getting it. Also I've had too many devil damsels to value their lives over that of a frogfish.

However I don't like the idea of the frogfish eating damsels but on the other hand that is kinda how the food chain works and really is it that much different then me eating steak or pork? No not really, the only difference is I didn't kill the animal myself, however that doesn't stop me from eating it.

That being said of course I'm going to try my hardest to get the frogfish eating frozen and not live. I figure if I can fill him up on frozen then hopefully he'll leave the damsels alone. I'm bringing him home tonight so we'll see what happens.

[karazy]

in my opinion the best way to ween frogfish from live to prepared is the least ethical, but most effective.
what you do is take the damsels out and throw them in a sump or something for later .
then you dont feed your frogfish for about 2 weeks (make sure he has eaten recently before you do this.)
then you take one of the damsels and you grab it by the tail.
still usuing your hand to hold the damsel, slow put it closer to the frogfish.
one it gets close enough wiggle the damsel a little and 9 times out of ten the frogfish will take it.
if this doesnt work after about 20 minutes of trying just let the damsel go so that the frogfish can hunt it normalyand so that it gets a meal in it and try again in 2 weeks.
this teaches it a few things.
1)to eat when food is available, not just at their leasure
2)to get used to feeding aparatuses
3)to eat as much as they can when they can.

once you have done thing a few times succesfully you can try prepared foods.
the best feeding stick ive seen by far would be a piece of acryilic rod with a small length of 40 lb. (or larger) fishing line on the edthat you can push through whatever you are feeding(krill, silversides, ect)

now take the food on your feeding stick or tongs or whatever you have chosen to use (the stick works best imo, even without the fishing line it works pretty well) and put it in the tank about 4"-6" away from the frogfish, wiggling it in the water.
at this point your frogfish should have moved a little towards the prepared food.
now slowely move the food closer to the frogfish, wiggling the whole time.
now wiggle it right in front of him, (moving it side to side a little bit can help too) and he should eventualy take the prepared foods.
if hedoes not take the food try again the next day, but again make sure he gets a meal atleast once every two weeks while weening.

hope this helps.

[Marlin65]

Just so you know I really want the frogfish and am looking forward to getting it. Also I've had too many devil damsels to value their lives over that of a frogfish.

However I don't like the idea of the frogfish eating damsels but on the other hand that is kinda how the food chain works and really is it that much different then me eating steak or pork? No not really, the only difference is I didn't kill the animal myself, however that doesn't stop me from eating it.

That being said of course I'm going to try my hardest to get the frogfish eating frozen and not live. I figure if I can fill him up on frozen then hopefully he'll leave the damsels alone. I'm bringing him home tonight so we'll see what happens.

You know that frozen is just like steak or pork it has already been killed and packaged. :lol:
Its a meat eater so either way something has to die.
What about those poor silversides.:wink:

[naesco]

You know that frozen is just like steak or pork it has already been killed and packaged. :lol:
Its a meat eater so either way something has to die.
What about those poor silversides.:wink:


Yes Marlin you are right and that is why the comparison is simply a justification.
Personally, I will spend more money QT ing and medicating a little green chromis damsal with a little fungus on it than what the little guy cost me.

It troubles me as a reefer to see other reefers feed them to other marine fish just as it troubles me to see them used to cycle a tank.

But, like earlier posted, to each their own.

[Marlin65]

I could see putting damsels in as food could bring in some other disease as well that would kill the frog fish. I would think you would have to qt your damsels for the frog fish first. It would definitely be better to try to feed it frozen. Hope it works out I would think its not an easy fish to feed frozen to. They are cool fish though so best of luck in your endeavor.
I don't agree with feeding it damsels either but you probably don't have a choice if you want to keep this fish.

[fishoholic]

in my opinion the best way to ween frogfish from live to prepared is the least ethical, but most effective.
what you do is take the damsels out and throw them in a sump or something for later .
then you dont feed your frogfish for about 2 weeks (make sure he has eaten recently before you do this.)
then you take one of the damsels and you grab it by the tail.
still usuing your hand to hold the damsel, slow put it closer to the frogfish.
one it gets close enough wiggle the damsel a little and 9 times out of ten the frogfish will take it.
if this doesnt work after about 20 minutes of trying just let the damsel go so that the frogfish can hunt it normalyand so that it gets a meal in it and try again in 2 weeks.
this teaches it a few things.
1)to eat when food is available, not just at their leasure
2)to get used to feeding aparatuses
3)to eat as much as they can when they can.

once you have done thing a few times succesfully you can try prepared foods.
the best feeding stick ive seen by far would be a piece of acryilic rod with a small length of 40 lb. (or larger) fishing line on the edthat you can push through whatever you are feeding(krill, silversides, ect)

now take the food on your feeding stick or tongs or whatever you have chosen to use (the stick works best imo, even without the fishing line it works pretty well) and put it in the tank about 4"-6" away from the frogfish, wiggling it in the water.
at this point your frogfish should have moved a little towards the prepared food.
now slowely move the food closer to the frogfish, wiggling the whole time.
now wiggle it right in front of him, (moving it side to side a little bit can help too) and he should eventualy take the prepared foods.
if hedoes not take the food try again the next day, but again make sure he gets a meal atleast once every two weeks while weening.

hope this helps.

What you're saying make sense, just not sure if I could do it. It's one thing if the frogfish eats it when I'm not aware of it, it's quite another to hold it and watch it get eaten :eek: However if one was able to do it I can see it being an effective methood to get the frogfish eating frozen instead of live which long term would be better.

I have feeding tongs (plastic and metal ones) so hopefully I can make a silverside look lively and tastey.

You know that frozen is just like steak or pork it has already been killed and packaged. :lol:
Its a meat eater so either way something has to die.
What about those poor silversides.:wink:

Good point

I could see putting damsels in as food could bring in some other disease as well that would kill the frog fish. I would think you would have to qt your damsels for the frog fish first. It would definitely be better to try to feed it frozen. Hope it works out I would think its not an easy fish to feed frozen to. They are cool fish though so best of luck in your endeavor.
I don't agree with feeding it damsels either but you probably don't have a choice if you want to keep this fish.

There are a few damsels that have been with the frogfish for awhile now. Maybe they're friends by now and he will be happy to eat yummy silversides. I'm really really really really really hoping not to ever have to buy any damsels in the future to have him eat. If it comes to that I'll make sure the damsels are healthy before adding them to the frogfish tank. I've had some luck in the past for getting fish to eat frozen (my eel, my mandarin, my scooter blenny) so here's hoping I'll get lucky again.

[rodsboys]

I believe I saw your future frogfish today. Cute little fella. You should try feeding him krill on a feeding stick.

[fishoholic]

I believe I saw your future frogfish today. Cute little fella. You should try feeding him krill on a feeding stick.

You probably did :biggrin: I am going to try silversides, krill, clams, squid, mysis and any other frozen fish food I can find until I can get him interested eating frozen.

[s.tan]

Just wanted to re-emphasis a point that Karazy made in one of his statements.


...then you take one of the damsels and you grab it by the tail.


When you start feeding whole dead fish, its easier to hold the fish by the head with the tongs. It may also seem that when you wiggle it, the tail action looks more inviting! In my experience, I've even ended up slapping the face of the frogfish with the tail of the tail of the food fish, trying to get the frogfish interested enough to attack. What I've learned ... and should have known ... is that frogfish are ambush predators. Therefore, they will target the head region of their prey. Duh! As soon as I switched it around, the frogfish attacked and ate.

[karazy]

here's an awesome article on predator feeding by one of the best predator based hobbiests in north america:
http://www.lionfishlair.com/feedingtechniques/toolsofthetrade.shtml

[bowkry]

I have a frog fish tank and I find some large crushed rubble in the bottom is great he can walk around lots, not too too much rock I find when you feed him the less rock the more often you will get to see him eat. I also feed mine gold fish (I know its not the best but they are cheap) Starve him for a week then put in a bright gold fish and you will see him eat. Also when he has his hod out that means he is hunting. Plus run a huge skimmer they poop lots. My frog fish is about 6 in and eats 3 large goldfish a week, Its great to watch. I tried feeding him cromis's but he ate one and one is still in the tank 2 months later.

[fishoholic]

here's an awesome article on predator feeding by one of the best predator based hobbiests in north america:
http://www.lionfishlair.com/feedingtechniques/toolsofthetrade.shtml

great article thanks.

[naesco]

great article thanks.

I know it will take time and patience to get the fish eating frozen food so hang in there and best of luck. Like was posted, when he is hungry enough he will go for it.

[midgetwaiter]

While tongs certainly work I actually found that a bamboo skewer or something similar made it a little easier to feed. You can still get the good wiggle action but it is easier for the fish to pull the prey off of the stick. My acrylic invisi stick is my best friend.

I also feed mine gold fish (I know its not the best but they are cheap) Starve him for a week then put in a bright gold fish and you will see him eat.

I don't want to offend or anything but that's not just bad it's horrible, your fish is going to develop serious problems over time. google lionfish + liver problems

Mollies are the best food I've found for my predators when it has been necessary to use live food. They don't have the fat profile like goldfish so you avoid that problem and given 30 minutes or so of acclimation that adapt to living in SW quite well. This transition also eliminates any parasite issues. Feed with some NLS or something just before you give them to the frog fish. Actually it's good practice to pop a couple of pellets into silversides before you feed as well if you eventually get the frozen working. Don't be shy about making him hungry, a healthy specimen should be able to handle a month without eating.