HELP....Ginger has lots and lots of new puppies

[howdy20012002]

For those of you who have met my dog Ginger, she is in the process of having puppies.
the problem is that she already has had 8, and i fear that there are a few more to come.
she is an awesome mom, but I am afraid that having more than 10 puppies means a heck of alot of work.
anyone have any suggestions in raising a big litter of pups?
she is a boston terrier btw.
and I will post pics tomorrow.
thanks for any input

[howdy20012002]

up to 9

[howdy20012002]

10..lol

[Leah]

Holy smokes that is a lot..

you will probably have to help her with feedings, to insure they are getting there fair share. As you will probably find that some will get most of mommies milk and not want to share. :wink: Watch the runt of the litter closely.

And you may want to tag the puppies so you know who has eaten and who needs to. Easier to keep track if they are color coded or what ever works best for you. Prepare to help in the middle of the night to. :mrgreen: Poor mom. :redface:

Have fun with your new litter. :biggrin: Oh and good-luck!

[howdy20012002]

she ended up having 11 cute little buggers.
i will definitely have to make sure that i keep an eye on them to make sure they are all eating.
I think she should be able to handle it for now, but I think I will have to feed some as they get bigger and start eating more.
it is going to be tough figuring out who has eaten and not eaten.
thanks for the input.
any other ideas would be great.

[workn2hard2day]

I dont have any advice, but I was wondering what was the purpose for breeding her?

[Beccadawn]

I find the first few days are the most critical. When I have a larger litter I weigh each little baby at least a couple times a day & track it on a spreadsheet. I use a high quality food scale as they are more accurate. Make sure you warm it up if it is metal. As puppies & kittens can't regulate their own heat until later on. This way I know who is gaining weight & who isn't. I know it can be hard to tell the difference sometimes if they all look the same but most of the time you can find some distinguishing marking or place a mark in their little ears. I find you get to know who is who quite quickly. Make sure you have a high quality alternate food on hand in case one is not eating enough. If you have any other questions let me know.

[howdy20012002]

what food/formula would you recommend for the puppies?
i am currently feeding the mom Nutro Ultra and a good can food twice a day.
should i try something else for ginger as well?
thanks
Neal

[Beccadawn]

Well I breed Persian Kittens so the food is a little different. If you go to your vets they will have a formula you can buy & make for the puppies in case you have to do the extra feeding. Also get them to give you a good bottle & syringes. Don't forget if your feeding them you also need to stimulate them to use the washroom or just put them by the moms head after feeding and make sure she does it by licking them. If one puppy is being a little "piggy" & one is not getting enough food I sometimes shift the baby & place the little one on or close to the nipple. Sometimes it's also necessary to kind of get 1/2 of them on an alternate schedule of eating/sleeping but don't do it unless you have to. Also try to resist the urge to wake up a baby when they are in a deep sleep because that is when they are developing & growing the most. If the babies are screaming & moving alot that normally means they are hungry. As for the moms food I personally use Royal Canin as they have food especially for breeding. I also worked for them so I know them really well & trust them. But whatever you do don't switch her food now that would not be a good idea when she is nursing. Good luck & have fun. I'll be on & off all day so if you have any more questions ask away. I personally always check on them every hour or so even through the night to make sure everything is going well especially for the first few nights.

[Flash]

I will gladly give one a home! Or help you on weekends! Lol that is a lot of puppies! The internet is a great thing! You can also call your vet for help!

[andestang]

Congrats ! We breed Chow Chows and have a litter coming as well. Feed the mom a good puppy food, plain yogurt & sour cream - not low fat or diet.. and get the pups on baby pablum for starters. Make sure all are getting a chance on the mother - I know, alot of work :dizzy:.




what food/formula would you recommend for the puppies?
i am currently feeding the mom Nutro Ultra and a good can food twice a day.
should i try something else for ginger as well?
thanks
Neal

[Doo]

Make sure you give the mom some yogurt to supplement calcium...

[howdy20012002]

any suggestions on what type of yogurt??

[Crytone]

I'd strongly suggest calling your trusted veterinarian of choice and asking them their opinion. They'll likely be glad to give you advice. Tell them your concerns. I'd be a bit leery of feeding mama 'strange' (as in not used to) foods that may upset her stomach.

If you don't have a vet and still want more info I could call my sister or father and ask either of them (both are veterinarians so a lot more knowledgeable than myself in this field) for their suggestions.

[Carrera75]

I dont have any advice, but I was wondering what was the purpose for breeding her?

+1 specially when there are lots of rescue dogs that need a new home.

[Chaloupa]

I'd strongly suggest calling your trusted veterinarian of choice and asking them their opinion. They'll likely be glad to give you advice. Tell them your concerns. I'd be a bit leery of feeding mama 'strange' (as in not used to) foods that may upset her stomach.

If you don't have a vet and still want more info I could call my sister or father and ask either of them (both are veterinarians so a lot more knowledgeable than myself in this field) for their suggestions.

VERY VERY good advice!

[busypencil]

Check with your vet. If you suppliment too much calcium too early it will cause her to develop milk fever. Try putting half with her at a time so every one has a chance to nurse in two boxes for nursing. weighing is also a good idea.

[howdy20012002]

I bred her because there are lots of people who want boston terrier pups.
Not everyone wants to rescue a dog, they want certain breeds.
I personally don't think that breeding dogs a couple of times is a bad thing.
no pedestal standing please.
and I have been talking to my breeder and getting some advice from her.
thanks for the advice everyone.
i have been watching and switching puppies as I feel necessary.
luckily, the hungry ones are easy to figure out, they are the ones crying ..lol
Neal

[Ian]

I personally am glad that some people take the time to breed pure breeds. Lets be honest it is rarely that these dogs that wind up in shelters, as breeders (not puppy mills) tend to take far more time being careful about who gets thier puppies and then check in on them once in a while afterward.I doubt someone taking the time to find out how best to care for the pups is going to contribute to the issue
Most of the problem with strays comes from irresponsible owners and puppy mills.
Good luck with your new babies they are such a nice breed.:lol:

[JenniferL]

Be careful with supplementing her with extra calcium as busypencil mentioned. I work in a vet clinic and we recommend switching nursing females over to a good quality puppy food, gradually of course. She will need the extra calories as the puppies will demand a lot from her. You will definitely have to help her with the feedings, thats a lot of puppies. As the puppies grow and suckle more milk at a time the more milk she will produce, hence the added calories from the puppy food will come in handy. Hills science diet, eukanuba, royal canin, or medi-cal are good choices, just make sure they are a puppy formula. Hope that helps and good luck.

[howdy20012002]

i feed her Nutro Ultra small breed adult an have actually been mixing in puppy food in with her food for the last couple of weeks.
I am also feeding her a can of Nutro puppy food a day.
in total she actually had 11.( i forgot to mention that she had another one)
the one problem she has right now is she has the runs..which is of course from the rich puppy food.
is there anything that people can recommend that helps with the runs?
thanks again
Neal

[JenniferL]

Usually for dogs that get the runs especially from a change in diet we would do a couple days of boiled hamburger and rice only, but that is probably not going to be balanced enough for her especially while feeding puppies. Its probably worth seeing/talking to your vet to see what they recommend. There are drugs that can be used that won't restrict her diet. Her having the runs is not good, any of those extra nutrients she is getting and needs are getting passed through her system before they have a chance to be absorbed.

[Jamieh]

Just adding some cooked rice to her normal food should help with making the poop a little more solid.

[workn2hard2day]

One of my dogs gets stress diarrhea, I feed her canned pumpkin (NOT pumpkin pie mix) you can find it in the canned veggie isle. She loves it and it helps her out with a couple bowel movements. She is a black lab and I feed her about 1/2c, btwn feeding.

[howdy20012002]

thanks for the input

[StirCrazy]

do your research on puppy food, most vet sold brands are nothing but garbage, especialy royal canin.

here is a good resorce of dogfood ratings you can look through to get an idea of the levels of quality of different dry foods.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog-food-index-k.html


Steve

[rstar]

You gotten lots of tips now how about some pics of the little rascalls!!!!!!! :lol:

[Ross]

You gotten lots of tips now how about some pics of the little rascalls!!!!!!! :lol:

I agree we need to see pics!

[doch]

do your research on puppy food, most vet sold brands are nothing but garbage, especialy royal canin.

here is a good resorce of dogfood ratings you can look through to get an idea of the levels of quality of different dry foods.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog-food-index-k.html


Steve

That website doesn't list either of the high end foods that I use... your best bet is to talk to your breeder and find out what they recommend... they will know what works best for your breed... assuming that they are a decent breeder (some just feed cheap stuff to keep the costs down).

[foreveringlass]

You gotten lots of tips now how about some pics of the little rascalls!!!!!!! :lol:

+1 :biggrin:

[StirCrazy]

That website doesn't list either of the high end foods that I use... your best bet is to talk to your breeder and find out what they recommend... they will know what works best for your breed... assuming that they are a decent breeder (some just feed cheap stuff to keep the costs down).

which ones do you use?

Steve

[BC564]

ok..why is no one asking for pics of these puppies....show me your puppies.

[doch]

which ones do you use?

Steve

Was using Before Grain (B4 Grain - can't remember how it's spelled), now Taste of the Wild (AWESOME Food!!).

[howdy20012002]

being that my camera was stolen.
here are a couple of crappy pics with my Iphone.
it doesn't do them justice.
i will take some better ones and post those soon

[StirCrazy]

Was using Before Grain (B4 Grain - can't remember how it's spelled), now Taste of the Wild (AWESOME Food!!).

they list 3 different types of TOTW

the Befor grain is a pretty good food, potato is a little high up on the list for me, but I would put it in the 4 or 5 star catagories.

TOTW is about the same quality but I like the Before grain better than it. the TOTW has tomato pummice which is a stool hardener, so they are using a additive to make sure stools are hard which can mask medical issues.

after reading some more I woulnd buy the befor grain. lots of quality control issues and forgin objects baing found in the food. and the fact that the main business of Merrick is a rendering plant which happens to be the same address as there pet food plant. Rendered product is horable to feed to pets.

Steve

[bvlester]

she ended up having 11 cute little buggers.
i will definitely have to make sure that i keep an eye on them to make sure they are all eating.
I think she should be able to handle it for now, but I think I will have to feed some as they get bigger and start eating more.
it is going to be tough figuring out who has eaten and not eaten.
thanks for the input.
any other ideas would be great.

It's not to hard to figure out which puppy has eaten and which has not exspecialy when they are small. the ones with round tummies have just eaten the ones that do not have round tummies have not eaten or eaten very little.mom will probaly end up feeding in shifts. she will work it out there is always a eunt of the litter and with 11 there my be 2 runts but they will all get some thing to eat. generaly the youngest are the one to eat last in a large litter so then never get very big and stay the runt. My dad use to bread german short hairs in Wainwright.

Bill

[EmilyB]

This will take a huge toll on your bitch. I hope you have her spayed now for her health.

[howdy20012002]

this will be the last litter for Ginger.

[Van-rookie]

are you going to adopt them out ?

this will be the last litter for Ginger.

[EmilyB]

I think the point is to sell them....and I am sure this thread helped quite a bit....not something I really agree with. I am sure the parents are show quality and health tested or would not have been bred....correct ?? :mrgreen:

Otherwise do not shop, adopt....:razz:

[howdy20012002]

wow, some people really have nothing better to do than to criticize others over matters that don't really concern them.
must be hard to breath in the thin air up there on the pedastal.
interesting that you would preach ethics about animals when 99.99 percent of us on this website have creatures that are most often ripped out of their home and put into glass boxes for our amusement.
did you "rescue" them???

personally, I don't care if the dog is show quality.
in fact, my dogs aren't show quality because they are red in colour and aren't recognized because of the colour...if I was a "real" breeder, they probably would have been euthanized.
but yes, they are healthy.
and yes, I will be selling them. (OMG, i know, i should burn for this..lol, imagine making profit off a pet.)
but, No, I was not trying to sell them via this thread.
Kijiji does quite well at that thanks - I guess not everyone wants to adopt dogs they don't know the history of.
I truly do admire the people who are willing to adopt a rescue dog. However, there are lots of people who want to have a puppy from somewhere other than the pound.
personally I would rather buy a puppy from someone like me than for 2 times the cost at a petstore.

thanks for everyone who has constructive input.(which is the reason for the thread)
Just so you know, the rice has appeared to do the trick and Ginger no longer has the runs.
the puppies are visibly growing already.
there appears to be one runt that I will need to keep an eye on.
Besides that, so far so good.

[rstar]

wow, some people really have nothing better to do than to criticize others over matters that don't really concern them.
must be hard to breath in the thin air up there on the pedastal.
interesting that you would preach ethics about animals when 99.99 percent of us on this website have creatures that are most often ripped out of their home and put into glass boxes for our amusement.
did you "rescue" them???

personally, I don't care if the dog is show quality.
in fact, my dogs aren't show quality because they are red in colour and aren't recognized because of the colour...if I was a "real" breeder, they probably would have been euthanized.
but yes, they are healthy.
and yes, I will be selling them. (OMG, i know, i should burn for this..lol, imagine making profit off a pet.)
but, No, I was not trying to sell them via this thread.
Kijiji does quite well at that thanks - I guess not everyone wants to adopt dogs they don't know the history of.
I truly do admire the people who are willing to adopt. However, there are lots of people who want to have a puppy.
personally I would rather buy a puppy from someone like me than for 2 times the cost at a petstore.



WELL SAID MY FRIEND! We just bought a Doberman puppy (and yes her ears ARE cropped) and man o man you should see the looks and comments we get. Good for you for doing what you believe! Im not discounting the hard work rescuers do, but i do believe that our choices are our own and if we really wanted the opinions or the beliefs of other people we would ask! And like a previous poster say if you have ethical problems with puppys this is certain the wrong hobby for you to be in! Good luck with the puppies and MORE PICS!!!

[Borderjumper]

Beautiful pups!! I still think of the sweet pups you and Ginger raised last time.. jeeze if I were closer I would be all over getting one.. The mother looks like the sweetest dog!

[EmilyB]

Actually, I spend time doing Doberman rescue. Mostly the dogs that have the inherent diseases to the breed, like cardiomyopathy. A very difficult condition to be bred out because so many breeders are dishonest about the reasons their breeding dogs died.

Don't knock the reasons that there is health testing, and breed standards. I don't know about your breed, but I care about the improvement of mine.

[howdy20012002]

I wasn't knocking health standards in the least and couldn't agree more about trying to improve the standards of any dog.(although there are standards I don't necessarily agree when it comes to the appearance of an dog.)
Nor did I suggest otherwise.
I just don't like being preached to.

and Borderjumper - Ginger is an awesome dog...i love her to bits.

[Aquattro]

I personally am glad that some people take the time to breed pure breeds. Lets be honest it is rarely that these dogs that wind up in shelters, as breeders (not puppy mills) tend to take far more time being careful about who gets thier puppies and then check in on them once in a while afterward.I doubt someone taking the time to find out how best to care for the pups is going to contribute to the issue
Most of the problem with strays comes from irresponsible owners and puppy mills.
Good luck with your new babies they are such a nice breed.:lol:

Mostly I'm trying to stay out of this, but this is the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Many (read tons) of PB "breeders" solely breed for profit, and sell to anyone with the cash. There are literally thousands of breed specific rescues across N America that are beyond capacity with discarded purebreds. People often buy a PB for some status, or otherwise irresponsible reason, and as soon as cute puppy becomes a dog with needs, it's off to the pound.
Private people should not breed dogs without a very compelling reason, by which they are actually contributing to the improvement of the breed. Bringing new pups into the world because there is "demand for product" is irresponsible. Period.

[Aquattro]

if we really wanted the opinions or the beliefs of other people we would ask!

Posting in a public forum is asking. Id like to see the comments and looks you'd get with your ears cropped :)

[howdy20012002]

all i can say is WOW
what a hornet's nest I have stirred up for asking for a bit of advice on helping my dog.
interesting to see the difference in opinions.
I still feel that I have done absolutely nothing wrong with breeding my perfectly healthy dog with another perfectly healthy dog which produced these beautiful little puppies.
how is a "recognized" breeder producing a better more socially accepted product.
I can pretty much guarantee that very very few breeders would spend more time and attention to their dogs and puppies than what I am giving.
so how how are they better??????
I will continue on with updates and pictures if interest is shown and if this thread doesn't get closed due to the stormy atmoshere.
thanks
Neal

[lockrookie]

ppl should be friggin happy gingers owners care and are asking questions to help these wonderful little lives thrive and go to good homes. i commend you

recently on one of my locksmith calls i rescued a rabbit and tarantula took the spider to pet store due to my wife fear of them. but the rabbit came home for us to care for we have a daycare and i thought the kids may enjoy a rabbit with the othe pets we have.

yellow lab, sheppard collie cross(rescued from a shelter as a pup very pretty but dumber than a rock), pionus maxamillion parot, and a rescued cat found in back yard starving, pluss my two fish tanks

well this rabbit not only was abandoned but two days later we found out its sex with six babies that appeared. all survived thankfully and now we are trying to find homes for them. thing is its not the animals fault for being left behind it was the owners. it was one of lifes little surprises as im sure 11 pups was a bit of a surprise as well.

i wish you the best with the pups i have too many creatures atm so i cant have one lol.

[JenniferL]

I think no matter what you do, be it breed dogs or anything else for that matter someone is always going to have an opinion as how you should be doing it. As long as your doing it for the right reasons, your producing a healthy happy specimen and are able to bring other people some joy along the way, I say why not.:wink: Good luck along the way!

[Aquattro]

Neal, I'm sorry, but you are, by definition, a back yard breeder. You are not a real breeder, with a breeding program and specific goals for your program. Nobody is saying you're a terrible person or that you don't love your dogs, but being a great pet owner and breeding fluffy are two different things.
Real (good) breeders take great care in selecting breeding parents, for reasons that give a very good probability to producing a specific outcome. They assess the genetic lines back several generations, looking at previously produced pups for good qualities and bad.
Overall, I think you've got a great response from this thread. If you'd posted it on a dog specific board, you would have got flamed right off the board :)
Regardless, at this point it's done, so good luck with your pups.

[rstar]

Posting in a public forum is asking. Id like to see the comments and looks you'd get with your ears cropped :)

Except for the fact that in this thread Neal did not ask for anyones opinions on the ethics of him breeding his dog.... :wink:

[lockrookie]

+1

[Aquattro]

Except for the fact that in this thread Neal did not ask for anyones opinions on the ethics of him breeding his dog.... :wink:

Unfortunately a publicly posted thread is subject to input by anyone, it's the whole point of public posting. And let's face it, it's not the first thread that has gone on a tangent, nor the last.
And the point of my posts, as well as Deb's, is to possibly inform potential puppy buyers of the problems brought about by backyard breeders and how it impacts the future lives of all dogs, in this case the puppies being bred as well as existing Bostons sitting in rescue right now, looking for a home.
Basically, hobbyist breeding of dogs is frowned upon by serious dog lovers, for a variety of reasons, and should be left to people that have dedicated years to their breeding program, resulting in improving the breed, not supplying a market demand.
This is not to suggest that anyone is a money grabbing puppy mill, but rather that perhaps many people in this position are ill-informed on the plight of the current dog population, much of which is a direct result of backyard, although well-meaning breeders.
And as a serious dog person, when something like this gets posted publicly, you're getting my opinion, solicited or not. And if just one person reading it thinks a bit harder about whether to breed or not, or where to purchase a puppy from, then I've contributed to the solution, not the problem.

[Aquattro]

+1

Oh, math!! I love math. Thank you for your wonderful and informative post, it's really opened my eyes.

[StirCrazy]

Except for the fact that in this thread Neal did not ask for anyones opinions on the ethics of him breeding his dog.... :wink:

wouldn't have mattered, on a dog board he would have been crucified for even thinking of breading a dog that isn't a good example of the breed standard.

to me personaly as long as they find good homes and are not just sold for the buck, but the new home is throuraly checked out to ensure they will be taken care of then fine.

a good example is the golden tretiver board I am on, now that I have a purebred golden retriever I am starting to learn the things they are looking for and understand what they are talking about. one persone came on saying "we are going to breed so and so because she is such a good dog" well let the flames begin.. no clearences, checks or other wise, not a show quality dog, ect and on and on.. I haven't seen this person back on the board in the last 3 months..

Breaders like Brad said take there buisness pretty seriously with the goal of producing the perfect dog acording to the breed standard, and breading for any other purpose is ir responcible.

yes its true that breaders used to cull below standard puppies, but on the other side of things, where would these puppies end up if they didn't? we used to do the same thing on the farm if the pig had to many babies to take care of properly and so on. a good breader will have several dogs but only have 1 litter in a year from a spicific dog. I know where I got mine it was mom's first litter and she was 3 years old. they won't breed befor 24 months old as that is when they get the final clearances and even though they have 8 bitches they only have 1 or 2 litters a year as they only breed matches that they feel will better there dogs.

so ya there have been a couple negitive posts but, no where near what there could have been. the deed is done so it realy doesn't matter now. what matters is they are taken care of to the best of your ability and placed in what you feel is the best homes you can find. so enjoy them while they are young and don't get to attached :mrgreen:

Still waiting for pictures, take lots they change so fast.

Steve

[Chaloupa]

Unfortunately a publicly posted thread is subject to input by anyone, it's the whole point of public posting. And let's face it, it's not the first thread that has gone on a tangent, nor the last.
And the point of my posts, as well as Deb's, is to possibly inform potential puppy buyers of the problems brought about by backyard breeders and how it impacts the future lives of all dogs, in this case the puppies being bred as well as existing Bostons sitting in rescue right now, looking for a home.
Basically, hobbyist breeding of dogs is frowned upon by serious dog lovers, for a variety of reasons, and should be left to people that have dedicated years to their breeding program, resulting in improving the breed, not supplying a market demand.
This is not to suggest that anyone is a money grabbing puppy mill, but rather that perhaps many people in this position are ill-informed on the plight of the current dog population, much of which is a direct result of backyard, although well-meaning breeders.
And as a serious dog person, when something like this gets posted publicly, you're getting my opinion, solicited or not. And if just one person reading it thinks a bit harder about whether to breed or not, or where to purchase a puppy from, then I've contributed to the solution, not the problem.

Very well said.

And to the comment made "I can pretty much guarantee that very very few breeders would spend more time and attention to their dogs and puppies than what I am giving" by the OP...I am hoping this was said to indicate your dedication to your dogs rather than a slam at breeders. Most breeders I know, having worked in a very large veterinary hospital for 21 years were incredibly dedicated and loving with their litters.

This is a public forum where, just like ANY other public forum you will get the good and what you consider the bad response..there are many of us that are very passionate about people breeding animals of any kind....and with good reason. Many of us have extensive backgrounds with animals welfare and know the nasty statistics not just the cute statistics...just because all of the puppies get homes, DOES NOT mean that all those homes are going to be great, or that they are going to keep that dog, and that it will not end up in a shelter. That's where you can pray that it's a no kill shelter, and not one that has such a high turnover they can't keep them longer. Breeding dogs is about the next 16 years of each puppies life, not about selling them all and carrying on.

I do wish Ginger well...and hope that all the puppies are adopted into loving and long term households.

[lockrookie]

im sure those dedicated dog breeders started as back yard breeders at some point in thier lives when they first started out

just my 2 cents
im done and handing thread back to owner:) good luck with the puppies again

[Chaloupa]

im sure those dedicated dog breeders started as back yard breeders at some point in thier lives when they first started out

just my 2 cents

That's rather broad and judgmental ...and if there were statistics to show, I'm sure that this is far from the truth.

[lockrookie]

fair enough my apologies not all but some of them.

[StirCrazy]

Very well said.

And to the comment made "I can pretty much guarantee that very very few breeders would spend more time and attention to their dogs and puppies than what I am giving" by the OP...I am hoping this was said to indicate your dedication to your dogs rather than a slam at breeders. Most breeders I know, having worked in a very large veterinary hospital for 21 years were incredibly dedicated and loving with their litters.



to further this, a good breader raises the puppies in there home and is dedicated to socilizing them. the only breaders that are in business and don't give just as much time if not more are the puppy mills and such.
People seam to thing breaders are business orentated, it is quite the opposit for good breaders they are dog people who spend thousands of bucks showing there dogs, researching and finding the perfect matches for there program and spend more time with there dogs than anyone normal person would. I will use the breaders of my dog for example.. they dont even advertise there puppies as they have a 2 year waiting list. I was very very lucky to get Kona when I did as they had both males in the little sold befor they were born and then one had to cancle out and I was just there at the right time as I didn't care weather I got a male of female as long as it was a golden. and they knew the issues with my last dog and that the family was devistated we had to take her back to the SPCA after 3 months of trying to retrain her. so they called the next person waiting for a male and asked if he minded waiting for another litter and boom we had a puppy. even though I knew the breaders they still came to our home and did a home check and talked to all of us to get a feeling of weather we would be a good match for one of there puppies, so if that isn't caring about there dogs and where they go... I don't know what is.

Steve

[Aquattro]

im sure those dedicated dog breeders started as back yard breeders at some point in thier lives when they first started out

just my 2 cents

I agree. Although the difference, I suspect, is the long term goal of a specific breeding program. A breeder should also be responsible for all the pups for all the years they're around. They should be willing, and in fact demand that any dog that can't be kept is returned to them. It's a standard part of a well written contract. They should also gaurantee the pup from any genetic defects at any point in the dog's life. This means a refund or replacement pup. They should be ready and willing to help all owners for the next 15 years with anything to do with the pup. Idealy they're part of a breed club or organization, dedicated to improving the breed (as an argument against Steve's comment, a breed standard as set by the kennel club is not specifically a good thing).
I have border collies, and as a breed, they should only be bred after proving themselves on stock. This is either done via full time farm work, or placing high in at least regional open class trials. Then they are evaluated for temperment, physcal characteristics, etc, before a breeding match is made. This type of commitment and ability comes from years of experience, and takes dedication to a close to full time activity. Breeding should be left to the pros.
If someone wants to become a respected responsible breeder, then they should work under the mentorship of someone who is already there.
Breeding your pet dog, simply because you can, is wrong on many levels.

I don't expect to change many minds, but people need to think a bit harder about creating life, and what will come of those lives for the next decade and a half. There are hundreds of thousands of discarded dogs in shelters all across north america, many of them a direct result of breedings just like this. and if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[StirCrazy]

im sure those dedicated dog breeders started as back yard breeders at some point in thier lives when they first started out

just my 2 cents
im done and handing thread back to owner:) good luck with the puppies again

actualy most good breaders start out under mentorship from the breader they got there dog from, so right from square one they are reasearching genetics and matching. and also are installed with the ethics of there breadings. also another thing to look for is are they a member of the CKC, if not don't buy from them. not every member of the CKC will be perfect but if they get caught straying from the ethical standard they are removed so a long time breader that is a member of the CKC is a pretty good bet.

Steve

[Aquattro]

a member of the CKC is a pretty good bet.

Steve

I'm not gonna start with kennel clubs, but we're gonna have to disagree on this one :)
Oh, and everything else you said you copied from me. Get your own stuff :)

[Aquattro]

Just a quick stat, the Boston Terrier Rescue of Canada (only one of many) takes in about 70 dogs a year. This does ot count those that they have to turn away due to lack of resources. 11 of them may not get forever homes now. Just something to thik about....

[StirCrazy]

I dedicated to improving the breed (as an argument against Steve's comment, a breed standard as set by the kennel club is not specifically a good thing).
.

Um the kennel clubs don't set the breed standard they just adopt it. the breed standard is set by the original creator of the breed when it is reconized as a breed.

the breed standard defines what the dog is intended to do and the body make up that optimizes it for its intended purpose. a well writen standard will say how the required feature enhances the ability of a dog. you can think that a standard isn't important but the people that feel that are the ones who have dogs that don't meat the standard. are they still nice dogs.. yup, great for pets and companions. heck I am not even sure if mine meats the standard yet, from what I can tell he does or is close but I won't know till he hits his full high and weight, and gets all his coat. do I intend on showing him.. nope, I bought him as a companion/pet so I could care less.

as for guarentees it is pretty hard to find a life time one.. usaly it is a year or two, but I have seen some lifetime ones.. I goess it would depend a lot on the breed also, we got a two year one.. basicly will pay for medical up to the purchase price of the dog or replace the dog if it comes to that.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Oh, and everything else you said you copied from me. Get your own stuff :)

ya, because I have a time machien and can go foreward in time read you post then come back and post it two seconds after you did :mrgreen:

there are theings about kennel clubs that are good and bad, the bad is that they make a lot of money for a non profit organization. also there are bad kennel clubs and good ones, take the CKC for eg.. there are two, canadian and contanental.. canadian = good, contanental = bad when it comes to ethics.

the canadian does provide a valuable service in regestration and such and a lot of resorse links but they do make money off sanctioned events.

Steve

[Aquattro]

Steve, some breed standards may be ok, I can't keep track of all that stuff, but there are many breeds (GSDs come to mind) that have been ruined by the show ring and kennel clubs.
Coming from a Border Collie background, the KC is pretty much the mortal enemy of our dogs. I'll email you an article offline that goes into all the gory details.
As for gaurantees, genetic abnormalities should be covered for life. In BCs, if both parents are clear for CEA, then the pups are clear, and there should be no problem gauranteeing that. If a breeder won't, I'd questin whether the testing was done at all.

[foreveringlass]

This is getting ridiculous!!!! :mad2: The poor guy wasn't letting his dog roam free while in heat. He planned for a litter of puppies, and ended up with many! They are very cute. Good luck with them. :smile: More pictures please.

[Aquattro]

This is getting ridiculous!!!! :mad2:

The ridiculous part is someone breeding as a part time activity, for reasons not yet determined in this thread. Seriously, post this kind of thing on a dog board, you'd get toasted. And the obvious amount of uninformed people replying dictates that the things being said get said. I hae nothing against Neal, I'm sure he means well and didn't let a monetary calculation decide for him, but hobbyist breeding is a major contributor to the over population of dogs in our country.
I'm not trying to fight with anyone, or even condemn anyone, I'm just representing this scenario from the dog's perspective. There are already too many dogs, and adding to that number for anything but the right reasons (contributing postively to the breed as a whole) should be discouraged. And even if Neal sets out to be a responsible breeder, it's a huge task to track all the pups for their entire lifetime. Which you need to do, to determine any issues that have arisen from the breeding. I can give countless examples of well meaning (and not so well meaning) breeders falling down in their responsibilities. And in the end, the only one that suffers is the dog. And ultimately, this should be about the dogs, not about someone selling pups, or someone wanting a cute little puppy. It's about a living being not getting a life they deserve due to lack of foresight into their futures. So for the dog's sakes, I just ask that everyone gives a little more thought to how and where puppies end up.

[Jamieh]

Just so I get this all straight with the Holier than Thou breeders of the board. No one but you experts whose sole purpose is to further the genetic make-up and strive for perfection in the breed should be able to breed and sell puppies??? I wonder if the Labra-Doodle breeders are included in your clan?

[Aquattro]

Just so I get this all straight with the Holier than Thou breeders of the board. No one but you experts whose sole purpose is to further the genetic make-up and strive for perfection in the breed should be able to breed and sell puppies??? I wonder if the Labra-Doodle breeders are included in your clan?

Hmm, antagonism is great. Let's go with it. Each dog has a purpose (you have a dog, right?). The purpose of the dog should be maintained or improved upon in a breeding program. We'll use Bostons, since this is what the thread is about. Bostons were originally bred for the show ring. In this case, true afficiandos of Boston Terriers would assert that only top placing dogs in nationally recongnized shows are bred. This keeps the true nature of the breed intact. We also want to weed out cataracts (both juvenile and adult type), cherry eye, luxating patellas, deafness, heart murmur, and allergies. Parents and grand-parents checked and cleared? Right. Next. Temperment. Do all the lines of this litter have the desired temperment? Hope so, I see lots of dogs discarded for temperment issues, and repeat breedings done to create more problem dogs. Is the breeder prepared to be responsible for the life of all pups, following up as needed?
anything doodles are just wrong, not even gonna get into that.

But holier than thou, not so much. Holier than you? I'd say absolutely. I'm standing up for dogs that don't get a say in any of this, you're just shooting your mouth off on the Internet. If you've got some facts, bring them, if you've just got a mouth, go away.

[Aquattro]

whose sole purpose is to further the genetic make-up and strive for perfection in the breed should be able to breed and sell puppies???

sorry if I haven't been absolutely clear here. Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying.

[foreveringlass]

The ridiculous part is someone breeding as a part time activity, for reasons not yet determined in this thread. Seriously, post this kind of thing on a dog board, you'd get toasted. And the obvious amount of uninformed people replying dictates that the things being said get said. I hae nothing against Neal, I'm sure he means well and didn't let a monetary calculation decide for him, but hobbyist breeding is a major contributor to the over population of dogs in our country.
I'm not trying to fight with anyone, or even condemn anyone, I'm just representing this scenario from the dog's perspective. There are already too many dogs, and adding to that number for anything but the right reasons (contributing postively to the breed as a whole) should be discouraged. And even if Neal sets out to be a responsible breeder, it's a huge task to track all the pups for their entire lifetime. Which you need to do, to determine any issues that have arisen from the breeding. I can give countless examples of well meaning (and not so well meaning) breeders falling down in their responsibilities. And in the end, the only one that suffers is the dog. And ultimately, this should be about the dogs, not about someone selling pups, or someone wanting a cute little puppy. It's about a living being not getting a life they deserve due to lack of foresight into their futures. So for the dog's sakes, I just ask that everyone gives a little more thought to how and where puppies end up.

You see the thing is, this is NOT a dog board. So why is it your job to "toast" the poor guy? The tread was about having too many puppies, and trying to get advice on how to help them and the mother. Kudos to him for asking for help! Shame on you for being so harsh and judgmental! The problem is not hobby breeders, it is the irresponsible pet owners who let their bitches run wild while in heat! I have gotten 2 dogs from breeders and have NEVER had follow up with them. Both were very caring, we were interviewed several times and ended up on a wait list forever. But that didn't insure follow up by the breeder once, not to mention the lifetime of tracking you preach! Buying from a breeder does not nessecaraly ensure that the dog will have a home it's entire life. Sometimes things happen outside controllable parameters. One can only hope that a puppy is finding a loving home for life.
Neal, Glad to hear mama is better. Did you try the pumpkin trick? Have fun with your pups.

[Jamieh]

My turn now. See you have a Bichon and you have a Shih-Tzu. Purpose of both to 90% of world is family pet. Both have some problems in the breed such as nasal in the Shih-Tzu. Cross breed them and you usually end up with a great family pet with few health issues. But to you perfect people this should not be allowed and little Sally should have Shih-Tzu with bad nasal problems. Not to mention how few actual genetic breeders there are vs how many people only want a good healthy family pet.

[Aquattro]

You see the thing is, this is NOT a dog board.

And that's why I'm being nice :) I agree, nothing is perfect, and not all breeders are the same, or do what should be done. Some are, some aren't. One of my dogs came from a BYB before I knew any better, and he's the best dog in the world. but I needed some info fromthe breeder, and got nothing.
My other pup came from the scenario that I "preach" about, and I do have the support for the lifetime of the pup. I hope I don't need it, but it's there. And the owners of the parents both follow up to find out how the dog is developing, for future breeding concerns. Just basic responsible stuff. Can we expect that this will ever become standard? I doubt it.

And as I said, this isn't against Neal, it's a general overview designed to make people think a little more about choices. You're right, it's great of him to come here looking for help, but to me, that says he might not have been as prepared as he should have been for breeding. But it's done, and we all hope the pups get great forever homes and live long happy lives.

But in my community of peers, we're heavily involved in dogs and see the tragedies daily of inappropriate breeding. Some with our own dogs, and tons of horror stories from people we meet at trials, tournaments, etc.

I'm advocating for the dogs that can't do it for themselves, and if people's feelings get hurt along the way, I'm sorry, but they'll get over it. The dogs often suffer things they can't get over.
Again, yes, kudos to Neal for asking for help, it's a sign he's going in the right direction. However, I question the reasoning for even starting the journey, based on my previous points.
Trust me, I'm a realist, and I know the majority of people don't have a clue what I'm going on about and think I'm nuts (maybe I hang out with dogs too much), but some people are going to think about it, and maybe not breed fluffy to that cute little guy down the street that does neet tricks. And maybe we'll have a few less dogs looking for homes down the road.
I'm not trying to tell people what to do, I'm asking people to think about more than themselves. Not too much, IMO.

[Jamieh]

I also find it quite amusing that people point to pet store selling puppies as the major cause of shelters being crowded yet you refer to fluffy down the street being bred. I visit shelters and the SPCA very regularly and very rarely do I see many small breed dogs in their windowns yet when I visit pet stores I find only small breed dogs in their windows????

[Aquattro]

My turn now. See you have a Bichon and you have a Shih-Tzu. Purpose of both to 90% of world is family pet. Both have some problems in the breed such as nasal in the Shih-Tzu. Cross breed them and you usually end up with a great family pet with few health issues. But to you perfect people this should not be allowed and little Sally should have Shih-Tzu with bad nasal problems. Not to mention how few actual genetic breeders there are vs how many people only want a good healthy family pet.

If you met me, you'd realize I really am perfect. Thanks for recognizing that.
So in your example, I have to question how the shih-tzu got to be that way? Inappropriate breeding perhaps? Here's an idea. If you just want a family pet, I can send you a link to petfinder, they have a few listed. Lots of designer colors and stuff, I'm sure you'll find something you like. They even have puppies.
In defense of you though, thanks for representing fact. I'm trying hard to be non confrontational, which is challenging for me :)

P.S. I'm not really perfect, I just know a lot about dogs, and this is often the subject of discussions over coffee :) It really is a problem, and usually only discussed on dog boards, so it's refreshing to be able to present this point of view to non dog people. Hopefully some get it, those that don't, I get it....

[Aquattro]

I also find it quite amusing that people point to pet store selling puppies as the major cause of shelters being crowded yet you refer to fluffy down the street being bred. I visit shelters and the SPCA very regularly and very rarely do I see many small breed dogs in their windowns yet when I visit pet stores I find only small breed dogs in their windows????

My parents bought a small breed dog from a pet store. It died 3 weeks later of exploding heart. Blood all over my mom as she held it. Ya, it never made it to the pound.
The problem with pet store puppies, in general, are health issues. They often come from puppy mills that mass produce without regard to any of the issues discussed. It's a for profit business model.
Most times you visit a city pound, you only see mutts. This is due to the purebreds being shipped out immediately to breed specific rescues who are much better equipped to find the dog a proper home. Like I said, BTCC has 70 Boston Terriers a year come through their rescue. Border Collie rescues all across N America get thousands of PB BCs each year. Call any small breed specific rescue and ask how many they process, I bet you'll be shocked.

[Jamieh]

Little general with your thoughts on pet stores I think. And that sample size of your parents is conclusive evidence. I think when you consider they number of Boston puppies born each year finding 70 go to rescue is not exactly a large number not than any number is good. I have heard of many people's stories over the years about health issues with so called registered professional breeders. I don't however jump to the conclusion that all are bad!!

[lockrookie]

i have this overwelming urge to watch free willy...

my parents got a dog through the ckc .. purebred american cocker.. got cateracts (however its spelt) in a year and cancer 2 years later.

no matter how the breeding my only concern, for any pet /animal is a good loving home. when i was a kid we got an english cocker who refused to die he was a superdog lived 14 years.

i do agree some ppl should not try to breed period animal or otherwise. lol

i think ,and im guilty of this as well, ppl have misread or taken too quick to judge, and have gotten a little heated of this poor guy and his puppies. i personally feel bad for my two dogs. the lab is two nuts short of manhood and the only thing he has ever humped was another male dog.. and our female shepard collie cross.. i think the snipped her brains by accident.. but i love them both all the same.

in the end we all should sniff eachothers butts and make up hehehe

[Aquattro]

no matter how the breeding my only concern, for any pet /animal is a good loving home.

Yes, but often the loving home turns unloving, when huge vet bills come in, and the dog has seizures every other day, and poops all over everything. Then it's often discarded. Not always, but often. Proper breeding, with top priority given to health and temperment (which to evaluate properly takes considerable time and money) will help to ensure that the dog gets to enjoy a happy healthy life, and makes an enjoyable experience for both dog and humans. Without the enjoyment on both sides, these things often end badly (for the dog).

[Aquattro]

Little general with your thoughts on pet stores I think. And that sample size of your parents is conclusive evidence. I think when you consider they number of Boston puppies born each year finding 70 go to rescue is not exactly a large number not than any number is good. I have heard of many people's stories over the years about health issues with so called registered professional breeders. I don't however jump to the conclusion that all are bad!!

To clarify, 70 dogs to one rescue org. There are a lot more just for that breed.
And in no way am I saying a "professional breeder" is better, many of these are the worst. They have a flashy website, lots of puppy pics, etc, but are generally a profit based business. Perhaps a better description should be "authentic breeder"? I dunno, but I'm pretty sure you can figure out what I mean. Esentially, a breeder who does it for the love of the breed, with the intent and purpose of breeding clearly defined as to promote a healthy representative for their breed. This creates a puppy with the best chances for a long healthy life. Does it stop all the problems? No way. But every little bit helps, no?

[lockrookie]

trust me i know what your saying i do probono work for the humain society here.. i help them break in to homes to rescue animals. i dont charge them for the service. i just do it cause it something i can do for the animals.

ah well i was just trying to lighten the mood im off again.

[Aquattro]

trust me i know what your saying i do probono work for the humain society here.. i help them break in to homes to rescue animals. i dont charge them for the service. i just do it cause it something i can do for the animals.

ah well i was just trying to lighten the mood im off again.

where can I get a job like that??

I hope the mood isn't too dark, I'm trying hard to keep it civil and informative :)

[lockrookie]

im an owner operator slave of a locksmith company in regina. and when i bought the business i approached the humain society to offer my services to thier warrants. they were getting charged 85 bucks and up to open homes to rescue pets. who pays for that ?? noone just the donations to the humain society. so i do it for free. my good deeds done dirt cheep :) its all done legally. and i get to help save lives.

[Aquattro]

im an owner operator slave of a locksmith company in regina. and when i bought the business i approached the humain society to offer my services to thier warrants. they were getting charged 85 bucks and up to open homes to rescue pets. who pays for that ?? noone just the donations to the humain society. so i do it for free. my good deeds done dirt cheep :) its all done legally. and i get to help save lives.

good on ya!

[howdy20012002]

LOL..this truly has turned into a circus side show.
thank god a moderator is involved or this thread would have been locked a long time ago.
All kidding aside...I can at least respect your determinism in your cause, regardless of my own point of view.
so, what happens when everyone only buys from "reconginized breeders" and/or adopt from rescue places.
What happens when all the rescue dogs are adopted. I mean there are lots of dogs waiting to be adopted, but in comparison to the millions of dogs every year that are purchased, the supply would very very quickly be drained.

not everyone wants to wait for 2 years to get a dog or pay a very large amount of money from what you are calling true breeders.

so does mean that people don't get to have a dog?

most of the dogs that people have come from people like me...not recoginized breeders...
why...because the breeders can't handle the demand..aka - the 2 year waiting list.

To be straight forward..Yes i bred Ginger for the money and because I enjoy her having puppies and I have a few people who have actually requested a puppy.

If your true breeders don't do it for the money why aren't they giving their puppies away???
lets be honest, unless it was a mistake, ultimately everyone breeds for money..or in some cases the prestige i guess they feel they get from the dog shows.
Which off course, if they do well at, the puppies they sell will be worth all the more.

[StirCrazy]

If your true breeders don't do it for the money why aren't they giving their puppies away???
lets be honest, unless it was a mistake, ultimately everyone breeds for money..or in some cases the prestige i guess they feel they get from the dog shows.
Which off course, if they do well at, the puppies they sell will be worth all the more.

a lot of them do, it they have a puppy that they determin is extreamly hopfull they will make an arangment for a shared ownership which cost you nothing but they have the right to breed the dog at a later date.

a lot of them is prestege.. I was thinking of showing my dog just for bragging rights till I found out ho much it costs.. yes the top kennels are doing it for both the money and prestege, but realy there isn't much money. I worked it out after vet costs, food, time spent stud fees and such my breeder actualy lost money as there were only two pups in the litter. to break even he needed 5. why does he do it.. he loves goldens, he has some good dogs and likes the prestege of it all. as for my self when I looked into the price of showing I choked.. you will spend about 1000 / month for 2 or 3 shows and most likely won't win anything, if you get a profesional handler you have a way better chance of winning but they can double the price. if you want to go all the way and try for westminster, you pretty much need to campain your dog and people spend upwords of 100000.00 to do that. so not a poormans game.

and after thinking about it what point is there unless I am going to breed my doggie which I am not as there is to much liability on the stud dog in a regestered breeding.

I am not against breeding dogs, while I wouldn't buy a BYB dog as I would rather rescue a mutt than buy one, I am ok with it as long as the breeder is being responcible, providing the best care available, and is honest about it.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

I also find it quite amusing that people point to pet store selling puppies as the major cause of shelters being crowded yet you refer to fluffy down the street being bred. I visit shelters and the SPCA very regularly and very rarely do I see many small breed dogs in their windowns yet when I visit pet stores I find only small breed dogs in their windows????

My friend volenteers with the SPCA, unles you go every day you wont see the little dogs, there are 7X more little dogs going through the one here than big dogs but they go very fast as city people want little dogs that will be happy in small yards or houses.

same thing goes for pet stores.. the average person buys small cute dogs, so while GSD, Golden, lab ect puppys are extreamly cute they get big real fast and they become unsellable, so they tend to stick with smaller dogs that will stay cute longer.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

My turn now. See you have a Bichon and you have a Shih-Tzu. Purpose of both to 90% of world is family pet. Both have some problems in the breed such as nasal in the Shih-Tzu. Cross breed them and you usually end up with a great family pet with few health issues. But to you perfect people this should not be allowed and little Sally should have Shih-Tzu with bad nasal problems. Not to mention how few actual genetic breeders there are vs how many people only want a good healthy family pet.

your turn was 1/2 right.. the Bichon is concidered a companion pet now, but only because of the uncertenty of its ancestory..

as for the Shih-Tzu, or tibetan lion dog, it was bread as a guard dog for the temples which required little activity and food making them easy to have.

Steve

[Aquattro]

If your true breeders don't do it for the money why aren't they giving their puppies away???
lets be honest, unless it was a mistake, ultimately everyone breeds for money..or in some cases the prestige i guess they feel they get from the dog shows.
Which off course, if they do well at, the puppies they sell will be worth all the more.

Well, I can't really speak with authority for most breeds, and Border Collies don't quite fit into normal criteria. A good breeder for my breed only breeds proven parents, those that place well in sheepdog trials, or work full time on a farm with stock. And usually when these breedings happen, it's to obtain their next working dog, with the rest sold to other handlers. And a PB Border Collie from proven parents can be found for $500 or less, so not a lot of money above costs.
We don't have a breed standard for physical traits, only the requirement to be able to work sheep well, which is a rather unique thing for BCs and we want to preserve.
Yes, some "show" barbie collies get produced, and sport dogs as well, often for a lot more money. But the true breeders don't do it for profit, they do it for love of the breed.
And to address your supply/demand question, if people refused to buy bulk rate puppies, the supply of quality pups would go up. Unfortunaely there will always be a profit factor, and my perfect world scenario will never come to be, but it's something to strive for, rather than just going with the flow.
There are people on my side, people on your side, and people on the fence. It's the fence sitters I'm hoping to influence, to at least slow the damage being done now. Ultimately, more and more breeds will vanish, or lose the ability to do what they were originally meant to do. For Border Collies, we strive to maintain the instinct to work with a handler in managing livestock.

[StirCrazy]

Just so I get this all straight with the Holier than Thou breeders of the board. No one but you experts whose sole purpose is to further the genetic make-up and strive for perfection in the breed should be able to breed and sell puppies??? I wonder if the Labra-Doodle breeders are included in your clan?


Nooo designer dogs are shuned and not reconized by any legit kennel or breeder. the whole thing is a lie and not a breed but rather a mut as the results are not consistant or repeatable.. these are very good examples of back yard breeders trying to cash in on a trend.

Steve

[Murminator]

Jeebus this thread went to h*ll in a handbasket Congats on the new puppies Neal.

Now will some of you preachers come to my neighborhood and preach to all my neighbors about all their friggin cats running around

[Aquattro]

Now will some of you preachers come to my neighborhood and preach to all my neighbors about all their friggin cats running around

Sorry, one mission at a time :)

[StirCrazy]

Jeebus this thread went to h*ll in a handbasket Congats on the new puppies Neal.

Now will some of you preachers come to my neighborhood and preach to all my neighbors about all their friggin cats running around

gladly :wink:

My cat is a indoor only cat and even though I love them I hate it when they are let out to roam where ever.. nothing better than weeding the flower garden and getting the cunky surprise :mrgreen:

Steve

[marie]

.....
There are people on my side, people on your side, and people on the fence. It's the fence sitters I'm hoping to influence, to at least slow the damage being done now. Ultimately, more and more breeds will vanish, or lose the ability to do what they were originally meant to do. For Border Collies, we strive to maintain the instinct to work with a handler in managing livestock.

Border collies are the exception to the rule I'm afraid. Thats why they weren't recognized by the ckc for so long...the people that care for the breed wanted to keep the breeders who breed for show from messing them up.


*Edit* I don't have much use for so called professional breeders I'm afraid. There are good ones out there and then there are reputable breeders out there who were caught keeping genetic epilepsy in their stud dogs hidden from other breeders (true story)

[StirCrazy]

there are reputable breeders out there who were caught keeping genetic epilepsy in their stud dogs hidden from other breeders (true story)

how do they do that Marie? when I was looking into what was involved in having a stud dog you have to be able to show genetic info back 10 generations plus clearances and COIs. if there was a knowen problem such as that its genetic it would be pretty hard to hide. along with the responcibility of having the stud as any genetic problem seams to always be the studs fault and then you are on the hook for refunding the stud fees and dammages. I also discovered that even if the stud isn't at fault it is usaly blamed on him, god forbid there was somthing wrong with the bitch :wink::mrgreen:

I agree that there are "reputable" breeders out there that are not as ethical as they would protray, but that is why it is on the ownus of the purchser to do his home work also. I got in touch with about 10 people who have gotten dogs over the last 8 years from mine and had a good chat. usaly the not so good ones are not in business for very long or have a couple litters then disapear for a while and come back under a different name. I even wet as far as to look up 5 generations of clearances and genetic info on the mom and dad of my boy as it was all reported online and simple to look up. not only do you see that but you can see the litter mates of them all and see how long the dogs who are dead lived and usaly there is a reason for the death listed also.

Steve

[marie]

A friend of mine was a lab breeder and when puppies started coming back to her with epilepsy she checked back on her lines first and then investigated the stud breeder....they had managed to keep it hidden over 4 generations and when finally confronted they admitted that there was epilepsy in that line going back at least 6 generations.
Something like epilepsy is easier to hide then the more obvious hip displasia ect

[marie]

Any way Howdy I would take a good backyard breeder who raises the puppies in the home and chooses a good tempered stud over a "show confirmation" breeder anyday

[Leah]

Not everyone can afford a pedigree pup. And more often than not the others including the Heinz 57's make a better pet. :wink:

Yes we want more puppy pictures. And hope you sell them all off Canreef. :lol
:redface:

Hope the new litter is doing well and give ginger a pat from me for being an awesome little mommy. :biggrin:

[Edmonton newbie]

i will take my 2 mutts before i would ever want one of those $1000 fancy dogs with all the health problems. The only problem with my 2 are that they have no slowdown buttons. Congrats on the litter hope all goes well

[infamous]

Congratulations on your pups! Not that you even need to hear one more opinion, but I think that what you're doing is great. Making sure to take good care of your pups and ask for some personal experiences is nice. The vet can give you so much info, but sometimes it's nice to hear some tricks and tips that other people may have. Again, congrats on the puppies and I know you are doing your best for them.

As far as all the "critics" go, it's definitely easier for them to stand on their pedestal. I didn't know that coffee discussions were the same as research and actual knowledge. And as far as "breed standards" go, so many of the breeds have been mutilated and changed that they are not even the same as when the breed was first created. The English Bulldog is a prime example of this. So, I'm not sure that Kennel Club Standards are the most positive model to aspire after anymore.

I have 3 dogs that I love very much. One being a rescue, one from a backyard breeder, and one from a registered breeder. They have all turned out to be amazing dogs, but not everybody is so lucky. As it's already been mentioned many times before, there can always be problems no matter where you find your puppy. And as long as we make our choice to be responsible pet owners, and breeders, we can all try to make the world a better place for us.

I also agree to the comment that mentioned 99.99% of us on this site rip critters from the ocean on a daily basis. If you feel that puppies and dogs do not belong in shelters, why do you feel that it's right to own a reef tank? I don't feel that your pedestal is well warranted.

Props to everybody for their positive comments and support. And to Neal, good work and good luck.

[Aquattro]

So, I'm not sure that Kennel Club Standards are the most positive model to aspire after anymore.


Just so we're clear, I think kennel clubs are the worst thing that ever happened to dogs, exactly for the reasons you stated.

[Marlin65]

i will take my 2 mutts before i would ever want one of those $1000 fancy dogs with all the health problems. The only problem with my 2 are that they have no slowdown buttons. Congrats on the litter hope all goes well

This is exactly why I paid a thousand for my dog so I would be guaranteed it would not have problems. I had to put my dog before this to sleep at 8 years (hip problems). I now have a dog that is guaranteed to not have those problems as I paid to make sure. So mutts are not always the way to go.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/hikingtrigger/2434747528_1acdc6e831_b-1.jpg

[howdy20012002]

Here are some more pics
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs073.snc3/14094_377916541834_679196834_4217224_6639277_n.jpg
a nice family portrait

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs073.snc3/14094_377916486834_679196834_4217219_8122255_n.jpg

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs053.snc3/14094_377916521834_679196834_4217222_1053837_n.jpg
a little porker

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs073.snc3/14094_377916571834_679196834_4217227_8336330_n.jpg
Doggy pile

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs073.snc3/14094_377916551834_679196834_4217225_4297489_n.jpg
A picture of the runt

[Marlin65]

cute dogs.

[StirCrazy]

hey, you mentioned something about the colors, what is the normal color for these dogs? man thats a lot of puupy haha

Steve

[Leah]

This is exactly why I paid a thousand for my dog so I would be guaranteed it would not have problems. I had to put my dog before this to sleep at 8 years (hip problems). I now have a dog that is guaranteed to not have those problems as I paid to make sure. So mutts are not always the way to go.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/hikingtrigger/2434747528_1acdc6e831_b-1.jpg

If life came with a guarantee always, that would be something. Life does not work that way. So because your dog has this guarantee and something goes wrong do you send it back and get a replacement??? You have chosen a pedigree for personnel reasons. You like the look, breed, whatever helped you decide that a pedigree was your cup of tea. Have owned a pedigree and she was just like every other one in her breed.

My 2 current dogs are mutts. They eat, sleep, play, protect me, bark and **** just like any pedigree pouch does. They may not look like the typical pure bred dog, but they have been wonderful companions and I would not trade them for anything. :wink:

[StirCrazy]

since this thread was originaly about food, I will go back to that with some general info and and some interesting reading.

this is from a dog board, but very good info.

"ethoxyquin extended the shelf life of pet foods yet it was a high risk preservative. Today, you’ll rarely see ethoxyquin listed on a pet food label. Most pet food manufacturers add natural mixed tocopherols to preserve ingredients. However, because of the likelihood of rancidity of fish meal (ground whole fish and/or fish parts), many fish meal suppliers add ethoxyquin prior to ingredient delivery at the pet food manufacturing plant. And guess what? That ethoxyquin added to the fish meal, because it wasn’t added by the pet food manufacturer, is not required to be listed within the ingredients on the label.

this chemical causes problems including liver, kidney, thyroid and reproductive dysfunction, teratogenic and carcinogenic effects, allergic reactions and a host of skin and hair abnormalities.

As of the writing of this article (9/5/09), the following are the companies that have responded.
Artemis Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Breeders-Choice – AvoDerm Natural Pet Food
“Breeder's Choice does not use ethoxyquin in any of it's foods. However, because it is found in the food chain, trace amounts cannot easily be eliminated.”
Blue Buffalo Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved naturally with Naturox.”
By Nature Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with natural tocopherols.”
California Natural, Innova, Evo Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with Vitamin E and mixed tocopherols.”
Canidae/Felidae Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Castor & Pollux Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with Naturox.”
Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover’s Soul Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Diamond Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Evolve Natural Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with mixed tocopherols.”
Flint River Ranch Pet Food
“Fish meal is flash frozen until time of manufacturing; no preservative needed.”
Fromm Family Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with citric acid.”
Kumpi Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with tocopherols.”
Merrick Pet Foods
“Fish meal preserved with mixed tocopherols.”
Natural Balance Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Nature’s Logic Pet Food
“Fish meals are preserved with natural tocopherols and rosemary.”
Newman’s Own Pet Foods
“Fish meals preserved with Vitamin E.”
Petcurean Pet Foods
“Fish Meal is preserved with Vitamin E..”
Premium Edge Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Solid Gold Pet Foods
“Fish meal preserved with tocopherols.”
Taste of the Wild Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Timberwolf Organics Pet Foods
“Fish meal ingredients are preserved with Vitamin E.”
TLC Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with tocopherols.”

Many other pet food manufacturers were contacted, no response as of 9/5/09. The holiday weekend could be the delay in their responses.

Fish meals, NOT fish ingredients are a concern with ethoxyquin. As example, ‘salmon’ listed on a pet food label would not be an ethoxyquin preserved ingredient; ‘salmon meal’ might be. The ONLY way to know is to ask the manufacturer specifically. Warning however, some responses I have received did not directly answer my ethoxyquin question. As example, one manufacturer told me “we do not add ethoxyquin to any of our pet foods”. This response does NOT tell me if their supplier might add ethoxyquin. I am waiting for their follow up response."

Steve

[BC564]

thanks for the pics.....they are sweet....enjoy them....your doing a great job.

[Crytone]

Different strokes for different folks.

I don't really care what my pets are but many many people want X breed. If I wanted X breed I'd likely go to a breeder too though but I don't think I'd ever pay much more than maybe $100-200 for any pet. I've owned every kind of pet before and the only difference is their looks and personalities. I guess I lucked out since my dad's a vet so we never paid for any of our pets (all the pure breed 'show dogs' we owned were free from clients and their was always strays around that we'd convince him to let us keep). My cat's a mutt but she's so awesome!

Saying a pure breed is guaranteed to not have X problem is a load though and if any breeder ever claims that, ask for it in writing. Every animal can have a multitude of problems. They are usually just selectively bred to REDUCE the likelihood of certain problems.

[Marlin65]

If life came with a guarantee always, that would be something. Life does not work that way. So because your dog has this guarantee and something goes wrong do you send it back and get a replacement??? You have chosen a pedigree for personnel reasons. You like the look, breed, whatever helped you decide that a pedigree was your cup of tea. Have owned a pedigree and she was just like every other one in her breed.

My 2 current dogs are mutts. They eat, sleep, play, protect me, bark and **** just like any pedigree pouch does. They may not look like the typical pure bred dog, but they have been wonderful companions and I would not trade them for anything. :wink:

No I agree there is never a for sure but with this dog I know that my odds are a lot less to have problems as he has a family health that goes back generations of not having these problems. I would never send him back but wanted the odds stacked in my favor this time.
My last three were mutts and they were great dogs as well. That being said I wanted one that I knew I would not have curtain problems with as well as I picked this dog for my life style.
Here is a picture of what happens when you take a dog hiking that has hip problems. This was his last hiking trip with me.
Not fun to carry a 130lbs dog out of the bush.:wink:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/hikingtrigger/431052463_9aa8be2588_b.jpg

[Marlin65]

Different strokes for different folks.

I don't really care what my pets are but many many people want X breed. If I wanted X breed I'd likely go to a breeder too though but I don't think I'd ever pay much more than maybe $100-200 for any pet. I've owned every kind of pet before and the only difference is their looks and personalities. I guess I lucked out since my dad's a vet so we never paid for any of our pets (all the pure breed 'show dogs' we owned were free from clients and their was always strays around that we'd convince him to let us keep). My cat's a mutt but she's so awesome!

Saying a pure breed is guaranteed to not have X problem is a load though and if any breeder ever claims that, ask for it in writing. Every animal can have a multitude of problems. They are usually just selectively bred to REDUCE the likelihood of certain problems.

Considering what a dog will cost you over its lifetime in vet bills and food a thousand is not that much to pay for a dog, but like you said to each his own.

[StirCrazy]

Considering what a dog will cost you over its lifetime in vet bills and food a thousand is not that much to pay for a dog, but like you said to each his own.

the price of the dog is the cheep part, its what the vets soak you for the 3 rounds of shots, spay/nuter/ect.. we paid 1K for our golden, then another 400 in vet charges for shots, 500 is going towards training classes ect.. and I haven't even inquired to what nutering costs yet. oh I am almost at 400 in food for the last 3 months plus 1 or 2 more... so ya.. the price of the dog isn't realy relivent other than its a one time charge..

I should also add the 225 for the dog we got from the SPCA, 200 bucks in food for 3 months, 500 bucks in trying to cure her of her dog agression problems.. and what you can put a value on is the heartbreak of the kids and us when we decided we had to take her back...

thats why we went with a puppy and hegged our bets with a breed that is knowen to be exelent with people and other animals. the other dog was a goldenX we found out it was crossed with a chow and attitude wise it is the chow that domanated when dealing with other dogs. that is the only down side to a crossed dog, you never know which trates will domanate and there is no continuity even in litter mates. now we could have been luckey with the SPCA dog also.. we had a 50/50 chance.. but we wernt.

Steve

[Aquattro]

the price of the dog is the cheep part

Tell me about it!! 35/week for stock lessons x2, 250/quarter for agility coach, 40/dog/day for flyball tournaments, renting sheep, 25/hr, backyard with 1000 worth of equipment, house crates, van crates, van, etc. Oh, and food. 3 cases of chicken a month, 1 case of beef bits, treats, toys, and then the vet. 800 to pull a tooth, shots, etc..
Yup, the dogs were the cheap parts :)

[Doug]

, renting sheep,




:pound:

[Crytone]

Considering what a dog will cost you over its lifetime in vet bills and food a thousand is not that much to pay for a dog, but like you said to each his own.

Again I'm very lucky in that regard. My dad and sister are both veterinarians and my family owns several vet clinics. I've never had to pay for a vet or any vet related services. Food I currently get for free also (written off as a clinic expense, this is likely to change when I graduate University). If I do ever get anything it's always at cost anyways. When it comes to pure breeds there's usually someone my family knows that'll give us a great deal for reducing their bills on the rest of the litter (we've done that in the past and got free dogs.. It is a good deal for the breeder and costs us nothing really except my dads time). Again, I'm just lucky though.

[StirCrazy]

Again I'm very lucky in that regard. My dad and sister are both veterinarians and my family owns several vet clinics. I've never had to pay for a vet or any vet related services. Food I currently get for free also (written off as a clinic expense, this is likely to change when I graduate University). If I do ever get anything it's always at cost anyways. When it comes to pure breeds there's usually someone my family knows that'll give us a great deal for reducing their bills on the rest of the litter (we've done that in the past and got free dogs.. It is a good deal for the breeder and costs us nothing really except my dads time). Again, I'm just lucky though.

are you feeding vet food for that write off or are you actualy buying good food somewhere else?

Steve

[Crytone]

are you feeding vet food for that write off or are you actualy buying good food somewhere else?

Steve

I assume you're trying to start another raw food debate in here which I won't get into (and I'm sure others don't want that again as this is not the appropriate thread for that subject and it's already been beat to death in the last thread...). But to elaborate my answer more clearly than my last post already stated, I'm feeding recommended food from my family that would likely be considered 'vet food' since it does comes from a vet clinic. If I got it from somewhere else it wouldn't be 'free' for me unless my family could order it. This food has never given me or my family problems before so I use it with confidence and I consider it 'good food' as you said, even if others may disagree with me. So let's leave it at I won't push my views on others if they don't on me.

[StirCrazy]

I assume you're trying to start another raw food debate

nope I don't feed raw either.

Steve