Looking for an LTA

[ed99]

Anybody here in town have a spare LTA? My tank has been running for about 10 months so I'd like to give one of these beasts a try. Unfortunately I don't have anything to trade except cold hard cash.

A couple of related questions-

my nitrate level is 5ppm- is that low enough for the anemone to do well?

if nobody local has one, what is a reasonable price for one at an LFS?

Thanks,

Ed

[AJ_77]

Hi Ed, it is pretty unusual to see one come up for sale on here, so when 2 did in the past few weeks, some planets must have aligned or something.

Check with Ocean on Center St north, they have LTAs more often than not, for around $40. If they don't, they say they can get them in easily enough. Even a purple (more money).

Rasta had a decent one (sold), don't remember where he purchased it.

BTW, did you get a Halide pendant or something?? You've probably heard these need some pretty stiff lighting... and a tank that's been stable for awhile - not chiding, just checking. (I should talk.)

:biggrin:

[ed99]

Thanks Alan for the tips. I know these guys are relatively hard to keep alive so any tips/cautions appreciated. I now have 260W of PC lighting over the 92 corner. From the reading I have done I thought that would be enough for LTAs and BTAs. I decided in the end that installing metal halides were going to do too much damage to my living room!

[Quinn]

I wuv my LTA.

[AJ_77]

Maybe a nice BTA would be a better choice - a BTA can "roam" as it finds a spot that suits it among your rockwork. That might lead it to the upper reaches of your tank, closer to the light.

For an LTA, not so much choice - it stays in and on the substrate (sand). It needs light and food to come down to the bottom, and I think your tank is what, 24" deep? It's a bit of a job for PCs to penetrate well, from what I've read and IME.

Also, BTAs are rumoured to be hardier, and more forgiving. Maybe you could find one of those really cool "Rose" BTAs.
:biggrin:

(Quinn - was enjoying your posts in the Anemones & Clownfishes forum at RC earlier. What a hoot.)

[EmilyB]

I thought you had PC's Alan over the LTA?

[AJ_77]

Yup - that's why I said, "I should talk." 170 watts of PC and NO fluorescent over a 50g isn't very much in this trade, is it? But things seem to do OK in there... there's only 16" or so of water.

reminds me, I should go feed that anemone...

:redface: It's adjusting to lower lighting. Did I show you the pic of it after something dropped near it? GONE! :eek:

[Bob I]

Just for the record. I had no trouble at all with a LTA in an 18" deep 50 with a maximum of 192 watts of PC lighting. IMO all this talk of bunches of light is highly overrated, as it so often is. Theory is one thing, but experience is what counts in this hobby. :rolleyes:

[ed99]

According to LiveAquaria.com it is the BTA that has higher lighting requirements compared to the LTA, though as you mentioned, the BTA could move up the rocks. The water depth in my tank is about 21". It seemed to me from the reading that a BTA or LTA would work (the BTA most often came up as the 'easiest'). Deb suggested the LTA since they seem to be less aggressive and less likely to disturb other corals in the tank.

[EmilyB]

Did I show you the pic of it after something dropped near it? GONE! :eek:

It amazes me to this day, how bags of water can have personalities.... :cool:

[Buccaneer]

Just for the record. I had no trouble at all with a LTA in an 18" deep 50 with a maximum of 192 watts of PC lighting. IMO all this talk of bunches of light is highly overrated, as it so often is. Theory is one thing, but experience is what counts in this hobby. :rolleyes:

Bob ... I have to disagree :smile: ... I got my BTA from a tank that had overdriven NO bulbs ( about 18" deep ) to my tank that has Overdriven NO actinics/ VHO actinics / 400W Metal Halides ( 31" deep ) and he/she has a oral disc 3 times as big in little less than a month in my tank so I would say that lighting does have alot to do with it ... a animals survival under some conditions as opposed to thriving under better conditions is evident that we should try to provide the best environment for the animals we choose to look after not the minimal conditions ... just cause they dont die does not mean we have done the best we can for them

Cheers

[Buccaneer]

I decided in the end that installing metal halides were going to do too much damage to my living room!

What do you mean " do too much damage " ? ... not sure I follow you there ?


Cheers

[Bob I]

Just for the record. I had no trouble at all with a LTA in an 18" deep 50 with a maximum of 192 watts of PC lighting. IMO all this talk of bunches of light is highly overrated, as it so often is. Theory is one thing, but experience is what counts in this hobby. :rolleyes:

Bob ... I have to disagree :smile: ... I got my BTA from a tank that had overdriven NO bulbs ( about 18" deep ) to my tank that has Overdriven NO actinics/ VHO actinics / 400W Metal Halides ( 31" deep ) and he/she has a oral disc 3 times as big in little less than a month in my tank so I would say that lighting does have alot to do with it ... a animals survival under some conditions as opposed to thriving under better conditions is evident that we should try to provide the best environment for the animals we choose to look after not the minimal conditions ... just cause they dont die does not mean we have done the best we can for them

Cheers

I did forget to mention that also grew very quickly to abround 10" across at its largest. It is also noticable that LTA's vary in size depending on the mood at the time. I have seen then shrink to about the size of a loonie at night. Therefore, although I appreciate your argument, I do not believe that lighting has a direct relation to the size of an anemone at any given time. As far as providing the best conditions, I feel that statement is highly subjective, and arguments could go on forever, and in the end would just come down to whoever had the most pursuasive OPINION. :mrgreen:

[ed99]

Agree with both Rasta and Bob there- I want to give the anemone the best conditions I can, but it is hard to get agreement on what that is, especially for anemones.





What do you mean " do too much damage " ? ... not sure I follow you there ?



I have a 92 gal corner in my living room. I haven't found a canopy for this tank, and the alternative to that would be to hang a metal halide pendant from the wall or ceiling. It is possible, but not something I want to do. Of course as I get sucked in deeper to this hobby, things could change...

[AJ_77]

Deb suggested the LTA since they seem to be less aggressive and less likely to disturb other corals in the tank.

There you go. :biggrin:

I took her advice also, and her LTA. :cool:
While it looks to be doing fine, it isn't tripling in size (and it's not going to). In my tank, that would be a bad thing. Finding the balance between "minimum requirements" and "absurd overkill" is tricky, and it's a little different for each tank.

[Bob I]

I do very much like the term "absurd overkill". That is something IN MY OPINION , a lot of people are guilty of.
However, we are not in need of opinion, but advice. I too would go with an LTA. because they seem to stay where you put them. I have, however, read some posts about them reaching rather large dimensions. 18' across is a figure I have read. :eek: :eek:

[Delphinus]

I do not believe that lighting has a direct relation to the size of an anemone at any given time.

Success with anemones is not subjective. It is a simple formula of providing properly for an animal's needs, which include substrate, water movement, lighting, nutrition and water quality.

Not to try to add fuel to this fire, but I have tried a various number of lighting combinations over my anemones over the years. In my experience, no, it is not mandatory for intense light, so long as other factors are within tolerances; but with the addition of intense light (i.e. moving from NO to MH) the anemones response was more than dramatic. The odds of producing an "ideal environment" are increased.

These are animals that live in shallow tropical waters. They are used to a lot of light. Doesn't mean they need a lot of light, but there's no arguing that they are accustomed to bright light in their natural environment. Some species of hosting anemones are actually exposed above the water line during extreme low tides. Imagine how much light that is. Bottom line is they can handle the light.

I don't know about LTA's in specific. Most generalities can apply to the dozen or so Pacific/Indo species of hosting anemones, each species does have its own unique tolerances based on their range and habitat. So LTA's may indeed, like BTA's, be able to tolerate long-term such environments. Some may already be adpated to lower light conditions, perhaps if they were collected at deeper waters. It should be noted, however, that I think there are several species among the dozen that really should not be attempted to be kept in captivity without MH or even natural sunlight supplemental lighting, but that of course goes beyond the breadth and scope of what I can say in a single post without getting much more long-winded. :mrgreen:

Bottom line, I disagree that lighting is irrelevant to the size of an anemone. Getting back to the "simple formula" you need to look at metabolism. Zooxanthellae by-products are sugars, so the energy produced is very high-burst, quick-release. Maybe kind of like the "power bars" an sprinter athlete might snack on or something like that. So imagine the amount of energy an anemone has when it's under a lot of light .... of course, for longevity you need slow-release kind of energies and this comes from nutrition. That athlete might still find it in his better interests to have a bowl of granola or oatmeal for breakfast every day.

SO I believe the best recipe involves both looking at lighting, and good feedings. :mrgreen:

[Bob I]

SO I believe the best recipe involves both looking at lighting, and good feedings. :mrgreen:

I also have no desire to be long winded, but I have little to do while waiting for Mike Anderson to finally arrange to pick up his zoos

:rolleyes:

I do realise you believe that if it has a mouth you should feed it, and I would defer to your vast anemone knowledge. I do want to mention, however, that Robert Fenner discourages the supplementary feeding of anemones.

My bottom line is that PC lighting of the proper intensity is adequate for LTA's. That at least is my experience. :cool:

There is also another factor one might consider. Optimum conditions=Optimum growth with the sometimes undesirable result of a shortage of real estate. It is therefore sometimes good management to not provide conditions which promote optimum growth.

[Buccaneer]

I have a 92 gal corner in my living room. I haven't found a canopy for this tank, and the alternative to that would be to hang a metal halide pendant from the wall or ceiling. It is possible, but not something I want to do. Of course as I get sucked in deeper to this hobby, things could change...

You might want to talk to Evan ( eposer ) and see what he is doing for a canopy for his corner tank that he is building right now ... a DIY canopy can be done that can match your decor and enough room to provide as much light to your tank as you see fit. For what it costs today to provide Metal Halide lighting ( Venki has 10K bulbs for $42 and a electronic ballast soon to come apparently in the $125 range ... tar ballast can be had for about $70 ... other than a slightly higher running cost over PC's I think that makes Metal Halides a reasonable alternative )

Cheers

[Bob I]

I had hoped I was done, but what Steve said reminds me of an important consideration. I know Alan mentioned it, but the depth of the tank would make me change my recommendation. If you must stay with PC's (and I know you just purchased some, so you most likely will), and if the tank is deeper that 18", I would go with a BTA instead of a LTA. A BTA will move to where there is more light, but a LTA is forced by its anatomy to stay on the bottom

[EmilyB]

You can actually tell a lot about anemones by looking at them.....:wink:

Since I had the LTA that Alan now owns for over four years, I will speak about my experience with that particular animal. :smile:

The anemone was bleached when purchased. It then began it's journey through our inexperience... It lived a year under NO, and colored up nicely. It lived a year under VHO, and there were no startling differences.
It lived a year under PC, and I can honestly say, that was a period of growth, and dramatic color. (The tank was not that deep however - 25g) The last years it was under MH, and there was no further growth. It honestly wasn't as pretty as under the PC. It's been in powerheads, aquaclear intakes - you name it.... :rolleyes: :redface: The anemone has ALWAYS been fed btw.

I'm not familiar with PC lighting at various tank depths so I will defer on that, but I know Ed well enough to know he will take extremely good care of any animal in his possession, thus his careful consideration. :mrgreen:

[AI Man]

I've got 3 very healthy ones right now, full of percs.
You are welcome to come take a look.

[ed99]

Folks,

Thanks again for all the help. I had read as much as I could find before planning on buying an anemone so I did not intend for people to have to write too much again on the same subject, but once again the tips are appreciated. Nice to know there's lots of help out there.

So I'll start asking more questions since I have bought one (my patience did not last long once I found one!). I understand that LTAs like the bottom substrate, but I found mine up on the rocks. I'm pretty sure the current got him though he was sitting down on the substrate for a few hours before I went to bed. Any suggestions on helping him to settle in without disturbing it too much? There's not too much current where I have put it, so I suspect it moved over night.

[Bob I]

Well Ed I might as well keep this going since I really have no answer. Mine never left the bottom, but I would say if the LTA is able to move where it likes to be, and you have no problem with it then fine. When I saw it yesterday it looked healthy enough, so my limited experience says OK. :confused:

[ed99]

Trouble was this morning when I found it, it was pressed with its top (oral disc) up against the rock about six inches off the bottom. I've put it back on the bottom with a glass in the way. It can still move if it wants, but hopefully it won't get moved by the current unless it moves.

[Bob I]

Here's a bit of a radical idea. Maybe you could dig a bit of hole in the substrate where you want it to stay. Then put its foot in it, and move the sand back around it, and put something in the way so it can't move. As I say just an idea. :mrgreen: :rolleyes:

[Buccaneer]

There is also another factor one might consider. Optimum conditions=Optimum growth with the sometimes undesirable result of a shortage of real estate. It is therefore sometimes good management to not provide conditions which promote optimum growth.

To keep this part of this discussion productive maybe there should be a tank size requirement similar to the recommended tank sizes for Tangs :idea: ... if I said to my kids that I was going to cut back on their food / exercise so that I could stunt their growth and not have to by more clothes or a bigger house for them most of you would think that to be cruel I would hope :eek:

If we have the Tang Police then maybe there should be the Anemone Police too LOL j/k

If the thought is that a undesirable result is actually growth in an anemone then maybe an anemone is not something to consider keeping unless you have the intention to grow it to a certain size and then maybe sell it or trade with another hobbyist.

Just some thoughts considering that we know as much about where a anemone was collected from and what those conditions were that allowed it to thrive there before being moved to our aquariums ... if someone wants to use less lighting then a deeper water anemone would be better and if you are putting a anemone in with a SPS tank then one that comes from shallower water may be a better choice.

Cheers

[Bob I]

I value Steve's post as an opinion. We all have opinions that we are all free to express. My post was intended as a thought provoking idea. As far as anemones go. They have been around for millenia, and have become adept at surviving under somewhat less that perfect conditions. Mother nature does not always provide optimum conditions. Are we then to be considered as evil if we do not always provide optimum conditons :question: :question: Can we not be like Mother Nature, who is often a bitch :question: :question:
Food for thought my friends.
:rolleyes:

[Buccaneer]

I guess I am still trying to figure out what you are trying to learn from this hobby Bob ? ... if you are going to do a research paper at some time down the road that illustrates the bare minimum environment for marine animals then you are well on your way right :razz:

Every time someone talks about skimmers / Metal Halide etc you pipe in about how all that is overkill ... that is your opinion right ?

As to the nature arguement ... anemones that require more light in nature have the ability to " pick up their foot " and move to a new location that provides more light ( like the SUN ! ) ... however the anemones in our aquariums dont have that luxury :rolleyes:

You have your opinion and I have mine :lol: ... I think I have a valid basis for trying to provide a more ideal environment for these animals ... I still dont get your motivation but HEY ! you have your opinion right ?


Cheers

[Delphinus]

Just MY opinion now, I'm not sure it is a good or fair idea to compare aritificial environments to the natural environment .... Perhaps this is a subjective opinion, but much of what I consider "less than perfect conditions" in nature are those which have been impacted or compromised due to human activities. The sad reality is that many species are not able to adapt to that, because too much change is happening too quickly. For "naturally occuring" factors, usually what happens is either a species is able to tolerate some variable anyhow, or, that species just doesn't happen to live then in a habitat where that variable is a significant factor. I don't know if this is a good example ... you don't see Entacmaea quadricolor living in the waters off the BC coast because the temperature is too cold whereas you DO see Urticina piscivora; these two species simply live in different conditions.. :mrgreen:

I've heard it said (I might be quoting Shimek now, but I may be mistaken) that anemones aren't really sophisticated physiologies ... either their needs are met, or they are stressed: they cannot adapt to conditions that are outside of their natural tolerances. My take on this is basically you need to look at substrate (sand and rock), flow conditions, lighting, feeding, suitable tankmates, water quality. It is not always easy to play with these variables during a period where the animal is unsettled.. but that's what you have to work with.

Bob, I think I understand that the point you're trying to make is that anemones are probably more tolerant of some things than we give them credit for, but I want to point out that we need to be careful with this kind of thinking. Each species has its own ranges of tolerances with respect to each significant variable. If two different tanks are within tolerances then both may be adequate homes. But stray outside of those tolerances then trouble will ensue. I know that skimming and halide use can seem to be overdone at times but it does, I think, tend to be erring on the side of caution. A minimalist setup is OK but requires more careful observation and more thoughtful planning, and requires a more thorough understanding of what variables are being played around with. Remember, each species has its own tolerances. Entacmaea quadricolor can be found in semi-tropical waters such as off the coast of Lord Howe Island or even as far south as New South Wales (Sydney is the same latitude south, as L.A. is north .. warmer than what we have here, of course, but neither is it "tropical" by any stretch). But generally speaking, all of the hosting species are found within tropical waters where the sunlight is undoubtedly quite intense.

Just my own $0.02 ... from the self-appointed anemone police :wink: :lol:

[Buccaneer]

Just my own $0.02 ... from the self-appointed anemone police :wink: :lol:

:mrgreen:

[Buccaneer]

Tony ... I do have a question on feedings ? ... do hosting anemones get fed by their clownfish ?

Cheers

[Bob I]

Tony ... I do have a question on feedings ? ... do hosting anemones get fed by their clownfish ?

Cheers
I know I am not Tony, but mine certainly did. Both the Ocellaris and Tomato clowns fed their anemones. :biggrin:

[Delphinus]

I think it is a grey area. Some people swear that their fish feed their anemones; some people swear that they don't, some people think that the fish are bringing the food to their "home" so that they can eat in peace (and then the food ends up in the anemone, so it "looks" like the fish fed the anemone, but it was accidental).

My ocellaris have never fed their hosting anemones in four odd years of me observing them. I could just have stupid fish though, I have no idea. :rolleyes:

My own take on this is a bit wishy-washy. I decided that I cannot rely on my fish to feed "their" anemones, but I've noticed that as long as I feed the tanks well enough the anemones are usually more than capable of taking adequate care of themselves by catching the food as it flies by.

[Bob I]

I guess I am still trying to figure out what you are trying to learn from this hobby Bob ? ... if you are going to do a research paper at some time down the road that illustrates the bare minimum environment for marine animals then you are well on your way right :razz:

Not at all. From whay I can see everything in my tanks looks fine with the conditions I provide. Were it not so I would change things or quit

Every time someone talks about skimmers / Metal Halide etc you pipe in about how all that is overkill ... that is your opinion right ?

Not at all. I merely point out that FOR ME, it would be overkill. I need neither of those things. Nor do I need RO/DI water, but if other people feel they need them it is really fine with me.

As to the nature argument ... anemones that require more light in nature have the ability to " pick up their foot " and move to a new location that provides more light ( like the SUN ! ) ... however the anemones in our aquariums dont have that luxury :rolleyes:

You have your opinion and I have mine :lol: ... I think I have a valid basis for trying to provide a more ideal environment for these animals ... I still dont get your motivation but HEY ! you have your opinion right ?

That is absolutely correct. You and I have the freedom to express our opinions, and need not think any less of each other.


Cheers

[AJ_77]

As to the "anemone-feeding" question, I've seen this behaviour twice now. The clarkii would take large mysis and jam them into the Carpet's tentacles, with vigour. No mistaking that - it would out-dash other fish to the biggest pieces, and put them out of reach even to itself.

The Pink Skunks, once full themselves mind you, will do much the same thing for the LTA. They put larger pieces right onto the tentacles, and then back away and look for more. they seem a little befuddled when the anemone starts to close in on itself with the food they brought, but they keep doing it. I gather it must be instinctual.

And yup, the anemone gets a few on its own as they float past.

[AJ_77]

Any experience with frozen cubes of mysis and LTAs? Mine just grabbed half the chunk intended for the whole family... not a huge chunk, less than 1x1 cm, but still half-frozen. Any concerns with anemones eating "cold" food? Potential for harm?

:confused:

[EmilyB]

Freezy no-brain.... :question: :confused:

[AJ_77]

Freezy no-brain.... :question: :confused:

Slurpee headache??