Florida Keys being invaded by Lionfish

[wayner]

Florida Keys being invaded by lionfish - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/fl-lionfish-invading-keys-20100208,0,6793928.story)

[Seamazter]

Good article

[sphelps]

There's lionfish all over the Caribbean, I saw hundreds in Cuba last year.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Dive%20Pics/Full%20Size/Cuba_68.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Dive%20Pics/Full%20Size/Cuba_70.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Dive%20Pics/Full%20Size/Cuba_71.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Dive%20Pics/Full%20Size/Cuba_72.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Dive%20Pics/Full%20Size/Cuba_86.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Dive%20Pics/Full%20Size/Cuba_87.jpg

Apparently DNA testing of caught fish has shown that they all originated from the 6 to 8 lionfish kept in an aquarium in Florida, the aquarium was wiped out by a hurricane.

[Delphinus]

A public aquarium or a private one? How long ago was that? The reason I ask is they are pretty widespread, I guess their range extends as far north as the Carolina's ?? Or at least Georgia for sure. I'm curious if it's really all from 8 individuals how much time it took to fill in that span..

[sphelps]

Hurricane Andrew in 1992 smashed an aquarium and release the lions into Biscayne Bay. I'm not sure if it was public or private but I can only assume it was public if they are matching DNA. I'm sure how much truth is involved int this theory but it seems to be common story on the web these days.

[Funky_Fish14]

Yeah I too highly doubt it was just from those 8 fish...

I've also heard of sightings of them almost as far north as New York.

[justinl]

Anybody have a link or the title of the paper that spshelps is referring to? I'm just curious about the DNA tracking methods used... and frankly a little dubious. I'm no genetics guru myself, but I can't imagine any way to accomplish such a thing unless the 6-8 fish in question had had tissue samples taken from them and preserved (not likely unless they were originally experimental subjects). This would of course also require the samples to be available to the researchers (not impossible, assuming they were from a public aquarium), that the researchers were aware of the samples, and that the researchers had independent tissue samples of other fish to compare. Seems like too much of a miracle scenario to me.

edit: a quick literature search turns up not much. far as I can tell, the exact origin is still a mystery though the aquarium trade is getting most of the speculative blame.

[corpusse]

Yeah I too highly doubt it was just from those 8 fish...

I've also heard of sightings of them almost as far north as New York.

I remember reading about them in nyc. Maybe not so much there but in florida, I think it would be pretty fun to spend the day hunting lion fish.

[saltcreep]

There are issues with other non-native species in most parts of Florida, not just lionfish. These fish are being reported in the Carolinas and further north.

There has been speculation about a now defunct wholesaler dumping fish in the Miami area where a higher than normal concentration of non-native fish have been found.

[sphelps]

Like I said I'm not sure how much truth there is to this but....

http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.asp?speciesID=963

http://www.allatsea.net/article/December_2009/Beautiful_but_DEADLY_Lionfish_Taking_Over_the_Cari bbean

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionfish

http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/news-20743--30-30--.html

http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-news/2008/11/05/lionfish.aspx

http://www.physorg.com/news159706864.html

[Funky_Fish14]

Anybody have a link or the title of the paper that spshelps is referring to? I'm just curious about the DNA tracking methods used... and frankly a little dubious. I'm no genetics guru myself, but I can't imagine any way to accomplish such a thing unless the 6-8 fish in question had had tissue samples taken from them and preserved (not likely unless they were originally experimental subjects). This would of course also require the samples to be available to the researchers (not impossible, assuming they were from a public aquarium), that the researchers were aware of the samples, and that the researchers had independent tissue samples of other fish to compare. Seems like too much of a miracle scenario to me.

edit: a quick literature search turns up not much. far as I can tell, the exact origin is still a mystery though the aquarium trade is getting most of the speculative blame.

Totally agree with this.

[sphelps]

Did anybody read the links I posted?

[my2rotties]

That was some good googling for this info. Thanks for sharing.

Did anybody read the links I posted?

[NuraNori]

I also cannot find the original papers, however that's mostly due to my library privileges being revoked since I'm no longer a student. However based on blurbs from those links that Sphelps posted I can certainly speculate :biggrin: Very bad of me as a scientist but whatever....

1. http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.asp?speciesID=963
Several fish were introduced into marine waters of Biscayne Bay, Florida, in 1992 as a result of Hurricane Andrew (Courtenay 1995).

A lot of this info or a reference to the info we're looking for would be in this paper by Courtenay.

2. http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/fl-lionfish-invading-keys-20100208,0,6793928.story?page=3
About 40 lionfish have been captured in the Keys and sent frozen to NOAA's laboratory in Beaufort, N.C., where marine ecologist James Morris is studying many things about them.

So as you can see, lionfish from the Keys have been collected and sampled.

3. http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-news/2008/11/05/lionfish.aspx
Although no one can be absolutely sure of the origins of all of the growing lionfish population in the Atlantic, DNA investigations suggest that the entire population is descended from just three separate females.

This tells me that people are only guessing the original lionfish came from that aquarium. Mitochondrial DNA testing would confirm how many maternal lines are involved and since there are only 3 here, I suspect blaming it on the 1 time release is the favourable answer. I mean what are the odds that 1 person released 3 lionfish at the same time as the storm or 3 independent people each released one? Not very good.

This last article tells me they did not have samples of the original aquarium residents, however it's not as unlikely as you seem to think. Scientists like to track invading species using molecular markers and if lionfish have been found in the area before they could have sampled the aquarium fish to develop markers. It's not unlikely for researchers to use specimens from zoos and aquarium, etc.

But in this this case, it all appears to be speculation based on mitochondrial DNA markers in fish caught from the Keys....media people always like to dumb things down leaving out key pieces of information....very annoying!

But that's just my interpretation of the vague information available at this time :wink:


Anybody have a link or the title of the paper that spshelps is referring to? I'm just curious about the DNA tracking methods used... and frankly a little dubious. I'm no genetics guru myself, but I can't imagine any way to accomplish such a thing unless the 6-8 fish in question had had tissue samples taken from them and preserved (not likely unless they were originally experimental subjects). This would of course also require the samples to be available to the researchers (not impossible, assuming they were from a public aquarium), that the researchers were aware of the samples, and that the researchers had independent tissue samples of other fish to compare. Seems like too much of a miracle scenario to me.

edit: a quick literature search turns up not much. far as I can tell, the exact origin is still a mystery though the aquarium trade is getting most of the speculative blame.

[justinl]

yeah I read em, but I'm still not sure what I think about this. I searched for the Courtenay 1995 paper, but i could not find it either. I'm still a student so I do have the priveleges to databases. No database has access to all extant documents though.

[rzadun]

was snor kelling in water south side of dominican rep. and saw lion fish.

[NuraNori]

Ok well I found the paper on why they think the whole western atlantic population was founded by 3 females...but no scientific paper actually states that those 3 females came from that aquarium...It's Hamner et al. 2007
Journal of Fish Biology (2007) 71 (Supplement B), 214–222. I'd attach it but it's way too big of a file for canreef. I can e-mail it if anyone's interested.

[sphelps]

While it may not be 100% scientific or ever 100% confirmed and it's even pretty far fetched, it's still better than the other explanations. Plus many invasive species have been introduced to the environment in similar ways before.

It's pretty clear that lionfish where introduced into the ocean buy the aquarium mentioned, so really how may lionfish does it take to start a new "society"? I also have no doubt that hobbyists commonly dump there over grown fish into the ocean if it's convenient, lionfish are very common fish, grow awfully fast, and are too big for most home aquariums. It's also confirmed that they can survive very well in this new environment.

But at the end of the day if the lionfish don't kill the Caribbean reefs the CO2 levels will so at this point don't loose any sleep over this. Try and get out there and enjoys these things in person before it's too late.