Can't keep SPS alive

[Jason McK]

I am wondering if anyone can help. I have attempted to keep Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis and a Staghorn Acropora, I have yet to see any polyps from my Digitata I've had it about 4 months, with zero growth. My Capricrnis turned white and coraline algae grew over it with in two months.
I have a 75G with 2X250w 6500K MH and 2X 110 VHO actinics. My water parameters are good with zero ammonia and nitrite, nitrate is <5 and Phosphates are <.5
Ca is at 350 and Alk fluctuates from 7 to 10dKH and during the day my PH is steady at 8.3


Any thoughts would be great

Thanks
J

[Jack]

These are often difficult questions to ask because there are so many possible answers.

What have you got for circulation/water motion?

[Jason McK]

I agree, I have quizzed everyone and reread many chapters of Aquarium Corals by Eric Borneman
I have 4 PH w/ 2 returns to ensure circulation and have arranged them several time to ensure each SPS is getting good circ. I will be replacing 2 with a stream 6060 this week end.

J

[Aquattro]

You've probably mentioned this before, but what have you got for rock/sand? Nitrate should be 0 and PO4 as close to 0 as possible. Having enough rock and/or sand should eliminate nitrates all together. How old are the bulbs? Shouldn't matter, but good to know.
Digitata is known to grow like a weed, so 4 months and you should be pruning the excess.
What is the temp? And as Jack said, circulation?

[Jason McK]

I have 100bls. of LR and 3.5-5inch sugar size Aragamax. My bulbs are about 5 months old. As for the temp like most this summer has had the tank fluctuating quite a bit. from 79-83 with a few days when it reached 84.


Thanks for the very fast response guys

J

[Aquattro]

That temp is fine. Are these pieces up high in direct light? I'm also sure PO4 needs to be less that 0.02ppm (guessing) or growth is slowed/inhibited in calcifying corals. Maybe look closer at that side of things.

[Canadian Man]

how old is the tank? or how long has it been running?

I have 4 colors of digitata. the purple,yellow and green grow like crazy. The red that I have has almost shown no growth in about 10 months.

[robbyville]

One possible thought that might be a cause of slow or negligeable growth is your CA at 350. I believe that it should be in the 430-460 range.

Honestly, I am having similar troubles right now. Somehave said that Alk swings could also be a part of the problem. A possible solution of course is a Ca reactor which helps to keep the entire system in balance if you are not already using one. I am looking to get one but as always finances are the issue! In the short term, I try to keep the system stable using buffer and Ca supplements.

Good luck,

Rob

[zulu_principle]

Are you using RO/DI water ?

What else has been successful in the system ?

Fish, Inverts and corals ?

[Jason McK]

I have what I thought to be a very healthy tank.
I currently have
Corals
Plerogyra Bubble Coral (Green)
Trachyphyllia Red Brain
Caulastrea Green Candy Cane
Euphyllia Greaan frogspawn
Euphyllia Green Hammer
Dendronephthya Carnation coral
Capnella Kenya Coral
Sinularia Devils hand
Studeriotes christmas tree coral
Sacrophyton toad stool
Lobophytum Cabbage coral
assorted mushrooms
Green star poyps

Inverts
BTA
2 Maxima Clams
1 cleaner shrimp
1 peppermint shrimp
1 coral banded shrimp
various hermit crabs
Various snails
1 very elusive mantis shrimp
Fish
1 Bicoloured Blenny
3 Blue/Green Chromis
2 perc Clowns
1 Whitecheek Surgeonfish
1 lined Blenny

Wholey cow I should copy this some were I'd never really done inventory before.
That's it the whole tank
http://www.user.dccnet.com/jmckenzie/full%20view%20(small).jpg

[christyf5]

Wow! Great looking tank!

Is there any truth to the saying that you can't mix SPS and LPS? Maybe the LPS are releasing something into the water and its killing the SPS??

Just a thought. Maybe someone else can clarify or tell me I'm full of it :wink:

Christy :)

[zulu_principle]

Tank looks great and lots of variety.

Christy Im not sure about LPS in larger quantities competing with sps ??

What about the water you are using any concerns there ?


Wendell

[Jack]

Is it possible that any LPS are stinging the SPS?

There is wishy washy talk of some softies (leathers I think) secreting compounds that inhibit/slow growth with sps, but carbon removes this. Are you running carbon?

A bit higher Ca is good and also it's optimum to have low, preferably undetectable, PO4 and Nitrate too.

Some sps are slow growers but you should be fine with digitata and caps.. I wonder whats up.

[Jason McK]

This has been something that has been puzzling me for some time. Wendell remember the black Brittle star I traded you for a acro frag. I still have that frag in my tank same size and colour just never seen a polyp. (I don't mean by any way that is was your frag, just wanted to jog your memory)

I to have heard of the soft coral SPS compatibility problem, mainly with toadstools, I have been running carbon for about a week now, no change.

Along the top center of my pic you will see an Acropora The tips covered in Red slime algae. I have no red slime Algae anywhere else in the tank. Why there?

Sorry I have to many question.

As for water it's RO/DI since day one.

Jakets

[Delphinus]

Is there any truth to the saying that you can't mix SPS and LPS?
Maybe the LPS are releasing something into the water and its killing the SPS??

I don't think so.. LPS are SPS are really very similar to one another except in terms of scale. Usually what is good for one is good for another, although I think LPS may be more tolerant of lower light levels and usually require less current that SPS. AFAIK, the only times you really ever run into trouble with LPS and SPS not getting along is when one is stinging the other (it's a more direct form of warfare), which is usually the same problem you get with SPS vs. SPS.

And it's not always LPS that wins, either. I've had a hydnophora (SPS) take out a few heads of candy cane (LPS) -- luckily the candy cane seems to be a quick grower.

Now, with that said, ....

There is wishy washy talk of some softies (leathers I think) secreting compounds that inhibit/slow growth with sps, but carbon removes this. Are you running carbon?

I'm not so sure it's all that wishy washy... :razz: I think there are genuine issues of compatibility between softies and stoneys... Leathers can supposedly secrete compounds but I'm thinking even in terms of just things like mushrooms and octocorals. A mixed reef can be very hard to manage, and that's one reason (IMO) why usually you see someone unload their softeys (or make a new tank) when they try to get real serious about SPS. Allelopathy, aggressiveness, invisible compounds, ... There could be something to this. Apparently even the presence of caulerpa in the tank system can have an effect on the growth of SPS due to allelopathy. For sure, running carbon is not a bad idea.

...

What sticks out to me though is the Ca and Alk values. They seem "not bad" but I think they might not be all that optimal either. Ca seems a hair on the low side, and your Alk seems to be a little jumpy... For Ca, I think NSW is more like 380 or something like that. I like to aim for >400 myself for Ca, and 4.0 meq/L for Alk which is .. um .. 11dKH (if I remember my conversions correctly). If I do remember my conversions correctly, your Alk is going from 2.4 meq/L to about 3.8 meq/L. I think anytime you're under 3.0meq/L you can expect to see very minimal growth in your stoneys. They say NSW is something like 2.7 meq/L, that means to see growth equivalent to the ocean your levels should never drop below 2.7.

Good luck. Getting into SPS can be a bit of a learning curve. Don't get discouraged!!

[Jason McK]

Thanks Delphinus
I'm currently working out daily Alk consumption and will be stablizing this soon. My Ca has usually been around 400-420 but has dropped off as I correct my Alk.

Anybody want some softies :lol:

From what I read the soft corals in my tank should be OK aside from the toadstool. I understand that all soft corals use chemicals as a defence but most are less likely to use them.

[Jack]

Tony, wishy washy means "I dunno forsure" :mrgreen:

I unloaded my toadstool on Christy. I wasn't getting the best growth and blamed that. :lol: :wink: My calcium was also at 350 at the time tho.

Now that things are worked out growth is great.

[Jason McK]

Jack,
Do you currently have other soft corals in your tank?

J

[christyf5]

Arggh Jack! Thats why all my frags croaked!!! :evil:


Just kidding :razz:

[EmilyB]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... :confused:

[One_Divided]

I would definately rule out your cal and alk levels as being a problem. Untill I had calcium reactor, I would have to fight to get my calcium even as high as 320. alk would be 6-7dkh, sps were always healthy and grew anyways.

I would maybe question that there might be something in the sandbed. It could be a lot of things. Phosphates, metals, who knows. I'd start doing some more unusual tests.

[Samw]

I had endless trouble keeping some acros and montis in the past. I lost a lot of them. I never thought that it could have been my PH until I bought myself a Pinpoint PH monitor. Now, I could see that my PH was about 8.1 during the day but 7.4 in the morning before lights on. Since making myself a Calcium dispensor for my Osmolater recently, my PH in the morning is 7.7 and during the day is 8.2. I think I was losing acros because of PH and not from high nitrates that I thought in the past. My acros and montis are doing much better now.

[Jack]

Jack,
Do you currently have other soft corals in your tank?

J

J, just a small Colt and Frogspawn, the rest are SPS.