Bad batch of Instant Ocean

[Megalodon]

I did a 25% water change today, with Instant Ocean for the first time, and immediately my tank started crashing! I tested pH (8.2), ammonia (0), nitrite (0), nitrate, phosphate, copper, salinity (1.025), and all looks fine, except for alkalinity... a kH of more than 30!

Both my cleaner shrimp died, my Hawaiian feather duster is laying out of its tube twitching, my Bengaai cardinal is belly up, my royal gramma is missing, and my yellow tang doesn't look impressed. The water is also very cloudy white.

Normally I use Red Sea but decided to switch to IO. The new water was RO and mixed for 24 hours with a powerhead, but I added a bit of salt 30 minutes before to adjust salinity. The water was introduced slowly over two hours. :cry:

I thought it could have been the RO but it tests fine. I did another batch this time with tap water and mixed it vigorously for 30 minutes. It tested the alkalinity at over 37!

I brought it back to JL Aquatics today and they did a test batch and their test kit showed kH off the scale too. They were shocked, but told me it was because the water had to mix for 24 hours, there has never been a problem with IO ever, and they just gave me a new bucket.

The new batch I'm doing right now with tap water has an alkalinity of only 5, so obviously there had to of been something wrong with the first bucket of IO. This batch also isn't so cloudy.

Does anyone know what could of happened? Anyone had a problem with IO lately? :cry:

[Quinn]

I never mix my water for 24 hours. Maybe two at the most. Am I courting disaster?

[christyf5]

two hours? I mix it and put it in the tank like less than 15 minutes later. Am I tempting fate too?

Christy :)

[Mak]

Well, IMO a 40% water change and especially a new brand of salt, is just way too large of a change.

Also, I've tried mixing the salt and heating it from 15 mins up to 4-5days and could not tell the difference any of the times. I do try to stick to overnight though.

[Megalodon]

But the new salt bucket I have has an alkalinity of only 4 kH even after 15 minutes of mixing. Besides, the bad batch of water I used mixed for 24 hours. I just dont' know.

[Quinn]

Can you or J&L send the salt back to IO for analysis?

[Chad]

But the new salt bucket I have has an alkalinity of only 4 kH even after 15 minutes of mixing. Besides, the bad batch of water I used mixed for 24 hours. I just dont' know.

Well, if you still have the bucket of salt I would keep it.. get ahold of IO and complain. Maybe you can recover some of your costs.. though I doubt it. You can try ..

Chad

[Megalodon]

Yeah JL Aquatics gave me a bag with a sample of the salt. They have the bucket right now. They're letting their test batch of water sit overnight then they'll test it again... they think the water will be just fine by then but I doubt it.

I'm going after Instant Ocean tomorrow. Somebodies got to pay for my loss... I guess there's only so much the LFS can do.

[fishnut]

I found Bob Studt at Aquarium Systems to be most helpful when I had a problem with IO salt. (it did not dissolve properly - it turned out that I had allowed it to absorb water from the air before mixing).

I sent Bob a sample (1 cup) of the salt as requested. Before he had even received it, he had a new 200g pail on its way to me.

IMO, Aquarium Systems is most anxious to make things right, and provides A1 customer service when and if there is a problem.

[sumpfinfishe]

I always mix my new water for at least 48hrs, I know this may sound extreme to most, but I had a few instances when I was just starting out in the hobby where my salt was not completey mixed, thus causing cloudyness and salinity jumps. I also agree with Mak, I think a 40% change is too much for mixing two new salts, maybe this caused some kind of chemical reaction- like the one that some are reporting with Crystal Sea and I.O.

Megalodon: Sorry to hear of your situation :frown:

Hopefully J&L's test is positive and maybe that way you could in turn seek some kind of damage claim from I.O. for your losses. If I were you I would be sure to save all specimens and also take pictures as well. Sounds like maybe there was a mixing or settleing problem :confused:

cheers, Rich

[smokinreefer]

yeah a 40% water change is quite large, and usually isnt recommended...
and yeah, it's also recommended to let the salt mix for a bit before adding to the tank, but...

i dont always follow those guidelines, and i'm sure many of you havent either...(i personally havent had any issues from breaking these guidelines)

but from the sounds of it, there was something wrong with that bucket.
especially if JL tested it as well, and their results were the same as you got.

and especially since it was a brand new bucket right?

i would just get in touch with Instant Ocean, write a "nice" email and let them know youre a first time user, after hearing alot of good first hand testemonials, tell them what happenned, express your concerns, tell them all pertinent info, test results from your tests, and JL. and i am sure they will take appropriate measures to compensate and make things right by you.

good luck with this, and keep us updated.

and, sorry for your losses.

[EmilyB]

A 40% water change is huge especially if it isn't aged imo.
:eek:

I think you can get by with water changes of less volume, and less time aging.

[Megalodon]

Well it was more like 40% of the tank, but there was still water left in the sumps, so it was more like maybe 25% water change of the total water. And the water was aged, for at least 24 hours.

Without even adding the water to the tank, the alkalinity was through the roof, so I know it couldn't be any reaction between Red Sea and IO.

[smokinreefer]

i think we need to look deeper than just getting caught up on this 40% volume thing...

the fact is, the ALK in the new water was way off from what it should be.

mind you, if it were only a 5 gallon change, the bad water probably wouldnt have had such a detrimental effect on the tank. hind sight is 20/20 though. who could have known...i never test ALK of new water before i do a water change. i have enough trouble testing the salinity and temp!

but again, that still doesnt change the fact that the water was bad.

JMHO.

[Chad]

I use Kent... have never had a single problem.. mix about 24 hrs ahead of time.. thats it..

Chad

[zulu_principle]

All I use is IO and use a few buckets every month.

Im a little concerned that the test results were the same at J&L as you had at home.

When did you purchase the salt ?


Wendell

[smokinreefer]

ive used KENT and IO...if i remember correctly, they are quite comparable and may even be manufactured at the same facilities.

ive mixed and heated new water (from a pail full upto 30gallons) for 48hrs, 24hrs, a few hours, 1 hr, and ive also done the mix and dump. never had any type of issues arise from it.

though i would still recommend to mix it overnight if possible.

[Jack]

How big is this system?

[Megalodon]

It's a 50 gallon tank with 30 gallons in the sumps.

Yeah, in hindsight I should have tested the alkalinity first before adding to the tank. The temperature and salinity is the only thing I thought to test. I had no idea it was normal for the alk to vary a little from batch to batch. But this is EXTREME.

Should we start mixing up our salt before using it?

Thanks everybody for your help!

[smokinreefer]

in hindsight yeah, but who the heck tests ALK when doin a water change?!?

yeah, i feel more comfortable after letting the salt mix atleast overnight.

[Megalodon]

Wendell, JL did have the same results as me, except they want to wait until tomorrow to test it again. I just bought it five days ago.

Right now I'm just doing a big water change with the new salt, tap water, and an hour of mixing time with powerheads. I'm assuming that the alkalinity in the salt isn't the only thing messed up so I just want to get as much of that old water out of my tank as possible. But it's so hard to get that much RO water on such short notice.

Another thing that sucks is I'm curing LR and it was in that water all week. Of course I didn't notice. Now it's really dieing off! Smelly.

I hope I'll be reimbursed somehow. But there's so much life probably dead now that you can't measure, like the little critters in my sand bed and LR.

Do you think it would have killed all the beneficial bacteria too?

[Bartman]

The IO salt bucket says, "can be used immediately after mixing", so I do. Never had a problem. I usually test Sg but nothing else before I dump it in. :eek:

[Chad]

I think if the bucket says you can use it directly after mixing then there is no doubt in my mind you should get compensation. I would do all I could to get in contact with the manufacture and I would make a good case for it.


Chad

[Son Of Skyline]

A 40% water change is huge, but besides the point. Also, I swear the last grains of IO salt are still not dissolved when I dump my new water in my tank. I've never had any problems.

I have however tested my fresh IO make up water just out of curiosity. I got pH 8.2, alk 3.5meq/L, Ca 300 or 350ppm (can't remember now). Alk through the roof is definitely not normal, tested right after mixing or whenever.

I'm not sure about compensation however. Hopefully they'll be really good about it, but you may end up with a fight on your hands to get any sort of compensation other than a replacement of your bad bucket. The 40% water change is only leverage against you if you try to get compensation for your losses. But then again it's not like I've had to contact IO for anything so for all I know it could be smooth sailing dealing with them. Just be prepared.

Good luck! Hope your tank comes back around soon :smile:

[Megalodon]

It was actually a 25% water change. The water sat for more than 24 hours. The new water water was dripped into the tank over hours.

The point is, whether you mixed the salt right away, or waited until the next day, the alkalinity was still sky high. I waited 24 hours! This could have happened to anybody.

The two test batches done aftewards, one I did, and one JL's did, showed the same problem

The mixing bucket had a thick coating of a white chalky substance all over.

The bengaii cardinal and the feather duster "came back to life" AFTER I took them out and put them in a bowl of 100% new water... using tap water, the new salt mix, and about an hour of mixing time.

I'm phoning JLs now to follow up on what they found. They think it's going to be OK by today, but they're wrong.

[Megalodon]

OK, just talked to J&Ls.

Their 24-hour test mix showed "alkalinity off the scale" too.

They have the sample of salt put aside. They said I can come pick up the bucket for testing purposes... so basically they're being good in the sense that they're giving me a free bucket of salt, albiet a defective bucket of salt.

But I guess for liability purposes, when I flat out asked them if they had defective IO salt, they said is that all they can confirm is that the salt they tested had really high alkalinity.

No other bucket from there apparently has been a problem. Even the new bucket I got from them, the same "batch", was perfect.

I'll let you know what Aquarium Systems has to say.

[Skimmerking]

Man sitting here reading the posts from everyone MAN THAT SUCKS..
i recently posted a post about switching and i had RED SEA and switched over to IO
what i did was i noticed that the salt content was low in the tank around 1.022 so i slowly dripped IO in hte tank for the next 4-5 day s to bring the salinity up to 1.025 with my dripper.
it worked for me ,...

[Megalodon]

Randy Holmes-Farley, the well-known chemist from Reef Central, will be testing this salt within eleven days.

I'll keep you all posted on his results.

[ltay]

Sorry for your loss. I have mixed mine 2 weeks in advance for 2 x 50 gallons rubber maid bought from Canadian Tire.

[Megalodon]

Two 25 gallon containers you mean? For a total of 50 gallons?

We'll see what Randy has to say but I don't think two-weeks will make this water habitable. Technically Instant Ocean is supposed to mix instantly anyway, not that’s the way I do it. 24 hours is more than enough, IMO.

The sample was mailed, and assuming the American boarder guys don’t hold it up or tear it apart, it should be to him in no more than ten days.

[Van down by the river]

I think you just got a rare bad bucket.
My sympathies to you.
I've mixed many thousands of gallons over the last 13 years. I've never had any problems.

I've used KENT and IO...if I remember correctly, they are quite comparable and may even be manufactured at the same facilities.

For all the people that say Kent is better than IO, I doubt that there is much difference.
Are they made at the same factory? Yes, this is true, Kent is manufactured by IO. per personal communication from various IO reps.

The salt is processed with all the same major elements. Kent supplies the minor trace elements to IO for final mixing. The idea is that there can be no conflict of interest in salt recipes on behalf of IO, if they don't know the exact final mix Kent uses. So they may even be the same.

[Jack]

I'm thinking maybe there was a concentration of buffer in the few cups that you used...?

I'm on my 5th bucket of IO and have never had a problem with it or my reef tank.

It might be an idea to do smaller more frequent water changes in the future :mrgreen:

[robbyville]

There's an interesting link on Reef Central that Meg started. Apparently he is not the only one with this problem. One of the folks also sent a sample to Randy of RC, with some extremely interesting results!

What I find so darn strange is the apparent randomness of people's problems. Based upon megadolon's posts I purchased the same salt within a day or two of his and have not had any problems...weird!

You don't have to read the entire 5 pages but here is a link to the last one!

Happy reading,

Rob

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1833275#post1833275

[smokinreefer]

i have a 30 gallon waterchange ready to go right now...
my IO pail is just about empty...
i gotta go get another bucket...
*crosses fingers* :rolleyes:

[Megalodon]

Randy Holmes-Farley tested my salt today.

His results: Water clear at first, then very cloudy, dKH of 37. Thomas on RC had salt with a dKH of 95! Then the pH of the solution rapidily begins falling below 7.7 as hours of mixing progress.

I want everyone who has had the same experience to please come forward either on this thread or the one on RC. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1857017#post1857017

Bob from Aquarium Systems phoned me today to express his empathy over the bad batch. He wants samples from everyone affected:

Bob Studt
1-800-822-1100 Ext. 22

Aquarium Systems
8141 Tyler Bvld.
Mentor, Ohio
11060
Att. Bob

[Acro]

Well, certainly sounds like Aquarium Systems is having some major quality control issues. With all the talk I figured I better check. I havn't got it were the mixed salt heavily clouds the water but have on occassion noticed were it would seem like calcium pricipation on the sides of my mixing pail. With this test (done twice) I measured a dkh of 32. I have used some of the bucket already with no visual ill effects. With this bucket the most I've changed is 20 gal on a system containing about 180 gallons total water volume. So I'm sure many others have had issues but have not noticed. Very disappointing to hear. I would strongly encurage everyone on this board to at least measure the alk of newly mixed salt. I havn't read the whole threads either here or RC but would expect this to be a larger concern on small systems. Non the less a concern Aquarium Systems better resolve. Please post your results.

[Samw]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1887023


And this was the clearer of the 2 mixes that he mixed.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=251507

I'm seriously thinking of trying Aquacraft now. A number of people at nanoreef.com has been getting good results. I like the fact that Aquacraft puts batch ids on every bag of salt and they keep a sample of each batch at their lab for QC purposes.

[Dorkel Marine 1]

My present bag of I0 salt got all hard and crusty while I was on holidays. Could this just be from the open air getting to it. And if so is it safe. My first response is it should be ok. I aerate mine for about 24 hrs. before I do my monthly waterchange. Its a little scary because my two small tanks are starting to look like reef tanks and everything is going so well. I suppose I should get an ALK test kit and start checking. Or am I being a little paranoid.

George

[Samw]

George, if you've opened the bag and used the salt already with no problems, there's nothing to worry about. Do you seal your bag with elastics? If not, then moisture getting in could probably cause the salt to cake up. Not an issue.