Do you think Im ready for a Mandarin?

[Eb0la11]

Hey guys,

so my tank has been running just over 5 months now. It is a 165G 6 foot tank and has I would say about 120 lbs of live rock in it.

The live rock is for the most part all mature stuff from other systems.

I also have a refugium that "was" three months old, but because I got a new sump I had to wash all the sand in it to start a new one that is probably about a month old now. The live rock form the original refugium was maintained.

Do you think I should get a mandarin? I dont think any of my other fish eat the pods but I cant really say for sure.

I have the following fish:

Regal Tang
Tomini Tang
Yellow Tang
Two Oscellaris Clowns
Two Blue/Green Chromis
Diamond Goby
Lawnmower Blenny
Green Clown Goby
Yellow Clown Goby
Foxface

None of my fish are bigger than 3 inches yet, if that matters.

What do you guys think?

[sphelps]

Yeah you should be fine

[Carmen]

My personal opinion is that even if you have a huge "supply" of pods the mandarin may deplete the pods supply in time if that is ALL he/she is eating. Your chances are significantly higher if you find a Mandarin already eating frozen. I have kept a Mandarin for nearly 2 years now and he is HUGE but he eats mysis really well. AND I OVERFEED to be sure he gets some. They are a slow eater and the mysis needs to float right down infront of them.

[StirCrazy]

Hey guys,

so my tank has been running just over 5 months now. It is a 165G 6 foot tank and has I would say about 120 lbs of live rock in it.

The live rock is for the most part all mature stuff from other systems.

I also have a refugium that "was" three months old, but because I got a new sump I had to wash all the sand in it to start a new one that is probably about a month old now. The live rock form the original refugium was maintained.

Do you think I should get a mandarin? I dont think any of my other fish eat the pods but I cant really say for sure.
I have the following fish:

Regal Tang
Tomini Tang
Yellow Tang
Two Oscellaris Clowns
Two Blue/Green Chromis
Diamond Goby
Lawnmower Blenny
Green Clown Goby
Yellow Clown Goby
Foxface

None of my fish are bigger than 3 inches yet, if that matters.

What do you guys think?

I would say no. with out more questions.

Do you see all kinds of bugs and pods running around? do you have breading grounds for pods set up that the fish can't get into?

with out seeing the tank I don't think anyone would say yes with the info provided. Mandrins that eat dead/prepared food are a rarity not the norm.

Steve

[mike31154]

I'd say you're ok. I have two in my 77 and they're both doing fine. One has been in there since 6 months after I started up the tank. I wouldn't recommend what I did necessarily but this guy is now a good size and bulked up nicely. My set up was previously owned and the LR, although initially not as much as I have now, was established. I have observed this guy taking granules of CycloPeeze from the sand, so he is supplementing live with dried food. The second I added in hopes of having a pair, but made an error and ended up with another small male. After discovering my mistake I went back to LFS and asked if I could trade him in. LFS was ok with that, but I'm unable to catch the guy. So far the two are not getting into any major confrontations. Newb gets out of Dodge pretty quick when big boy gets close. The big guy doesn't go out of his way to hunt down the newb. Anyhow, getting a little off topic with my story here, but just wanted to relate my experience with two in a 77 and both finding sufficient nourishment. With a 165 like yours I'd venture to say it's almost a no brainer. If one can't survive in there, there's something amiss.

[naesco]

I agree with Steve.

When the lights are out if there are tons of pods kicking around it is ok.
If there are not it is not OK: Than wait a while longer.

You can not buy a mandarin that is eating mysis. After you place a mandarin in your tank it is a matter of luck. A small percentage do. By far the majority don't and need the live food your sand and rock provide.

You can speed up the development of pods in your refugium by putting macro algae in and adding live pytoplankton with a slow flow.

Thanks for asking.

[fishoholic]

I agree with Steve.

When the lights are out if there are tons of pods kicking around it is ok.
If there are not it is not OK: Than wait a while longer.

You can not buy a mandarin that is eating mysis. After you place a mandarin in your tank it is a matter of luck. A small percentage do. By far the majority don't and need the live food your sand and rock provide.

You can speed up the development of pods in your refugium by putting macro algae in and adding live pytoplankton with a slow flow.

Thanks for asking.

I have to mostly agree. However you can buy mandarin's that the LFS has trianed to eat mysis. This is not the norm and it is really rare but I have seen mandarins for sale in LFS that have been trained to eat mysis, just make sure you see the mandarin eat mysis at the store before you buy it or make sure you have a lot of pods available and a breeding ground for them to multiply in.

[justinl]

yeah I'm going to go with Laurie, steve and naesco on this one. make sure you see your mandarin eat prepared foods at the store; the chance that you will wean it on to prepared feed in your tank is low low low. You should also note that it will be competing with 3 gobies and a blenny for a relatively young pod population. I also suggest setting up a few pod condos (or whatever they're called)... they're basically just piles of LR rubble that provide in-tank refugia for pods.

[Eb0la11]

Yeah there are lots of pods. I dunno what "lots" is compared to other tanks, but I see them all the time and I see clouds of the larvae swimming in my fuge.

The rock I just bought was 2 years established in another reefers tank and that was 50 lbs worth. The other 70 was from golds/pisces a 10 lb piece and then the rest from another reefer but I think it was average at best.

Pods can grow in my fuge, but it doesnt fall back into the DT with gravity. They would have to go through the pump. Would this kill them? Maybe not the small larvae, but the older ones, probably?

[sphelps]

I'm not sure I see much point in staying up all night counting bugs on the glass but that's just me. I've always found mandarins very easy to care for and provided you've got enough established rock you should be fine, the problem is there survival rate isn't that good but it's related to reasons other than starvation. If you really want to look into it then you can check out this thread on another site:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1492650

[naesco]

I'm not sure I see much point in staying up all night counting bugs on the glass but that's just me. I've always found mandarins very easy to care for and provided you've got enough established rock you should be fine, the problem is there survival rate isn't that good but it's related to reasons other than starvation. If you really want to look into it then you can check out this thread on another site:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1492650

Sorry but Mandarins are certainly not easy to care for. Most starve because the reefer is unable to provide a suitable environment for them that includes.

1. a mature tank (9 months) with an established population of pods.
2. a tank large enough to ensure that the new population of pods keeps up with the pods that are eaten by the mandarin. A reefer can add a refugium fed with phyto that supercharges the production of pods. When you observe them they are constantly searching for food.
3. Many reefers have gobies and wrasse that compete with the mandarins for the same food.


All mandarins are caught with cyanide because they scoot into the rocks when the divers come near. By far the majority will die immediately or within hours of their capture from the cyanide poison, but some will survive transport and die in the LFS or reefers tanks.
A tiny few are caught by MAC certified divers who use a very thin two pronged device to spear the mandarin. Apparently it does not harm them.

[marie]

I have had 5 mandarins over the years, 1 jumped, 1 died in my marine velvet incident after being in my care for 4 yrs, and I still have 3 that I have had for at least a year. 4 out of the 5 eat/ate mysis (the female I have now still doesn't) but it did take 2 of them over a year to figure out that mysis was food

From my experience I have to agree with sphelps....they are quite easy to care for

[Eb0la11]

Ive been designing my system to be adequate for a mandarin since day 1 with refugium, lots of live rock and the availability of pods and I think I will be able to make it work. I'll try to find one that accepts live food, but if not I'll do my due diligence to make sure the little guy is taken care of. Dont worry.

[mike31154]

I am still in the go for it camp. As you've mentioned the rock you have comes largely from previously established systems and there should be plenty of food for a small mandarin. I've never been able to see the pods my mandarins peck at they are so small, so I also see no point in observing what's crawling around after lights out. Sure there are risks, any new fish can become a casualty for one reason or another. I've tried to back up my reasoning with personal experience and I see there are at least two other posters with positive first hand experiences as well. I have two healthy mandarins in a 77 gallon sumpless tank and you have a 165 with refugium and sump! That's more than twice the size of my system. I've not needed to supercharge the pod population nor have I set up any pod condos. None of the posters advising against getting one have validated their advice with personal experience. I may be wrong and if I am, apologize, but it appears some of this advice is based on second or third party information.

[sphelps]

Sorry but Mandarins are certainly not easy to care for. Most starve because the reefer is unable to provide a suitable environment for them that includes.

All mandarins are caught with cyanide because they scoot into the rocks when the divers come near. By far the majority will die immediately or within hours of their capture from the cyanide poison, but some will survive transport and die in the LFS or reefers tanks.
A tiny few are caught by MAC certified divers who use a very thin two pronged device to spear the mandarin. Apparently it does not harm them.
That first statement isn't that accurate, but the second statement is more likely. Mandarins rarely die of starvation due to lack of food, the reasons some don't make it is related more to the second statement (but I wouldn't say all), many simply don't hunt or eat once introduced. Providing food for mandarins is one of the easiest things in reefing, you said it yourself all you just need mature rock, I'm not sure what's so complicated or difficult about that.

[StirCrazy]

. None of the posters advising against getting one have validated their advice with personal experience. I may be wrong and if I am, apologize, but it appears some of this advice is based on second or third party information.

hmm nice asumption, but wrong. I had two of them in my tank a male and femail and one lived for 4 years the other for 5. neither ate prepared food, and contrary to Marie's that is a rarity. seeign she is so lucky I would recomend she go buy a powerball ticket :mrgreen:

as for looking to see whats running around at nigh.. thats a waist of time, if you can see pods during the day you should figure out how to get more in your tank. it isn't the big ones they eat, but rather the babbys and different types.. but seeing pods scurring about your tank is a good indacator of the overall helth of your tanks bug population.

now alot of poeple saying go for it are not qualntifying there answers, are you listing what you had for a tank, what fish were in it? did you have 4 other fish that are direct competers for food in the tank?

ok enough of that. what can you do to improve you chances..

1, get rid of the golbies. but not a good solution for most.

2, build pod piles, very easy to do and cheep. just break down old live rock into 1-2" chunks and make big piles of this rubble behind your rocks. the size of the rocks has to be big enough that there is lots of nooks and crannys but small enough that preditory fish can not get in the structure. this gives the pods a safe haven breading ground. I had 4 of these about 2" wide, 6 inches long and 8" high behind the rock in my 94gal.

other than the food issue I find mandrins a very hardy fish and I will always have one in my tanks over 50 gal, but the tanks needs to be able to provide for them unless you have the holy grail of mandrins like Marie.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

That first statement isn't that accurate, but the second statement is more likely. Mandarins rarely die of starvation due to lack of food, the reasons some don't make it is related more to the second statement (but I wouldn't say all), many simply don't hunt or eat once introduced. Providing food for mandarins is one of the easiest things in reefing, you said it yourself all you just need mature rock, I'm not sure what's so complicated or difficult about that.


but it is the largest reason they die.. starvation. it isn't that we can't provide food, it is weather we can provide enough, with out compatition for that food. mandrins are slow eaters, and take a while to eat a bunch of bugs.. wrases, golbies, ect with go through them in minits. so normaly it is the compatition that causes them to starve. also you wouldn't believe how many people have no bugs in there tanks. they are the easiest thing in the world to grow but also for some reason the hardest.

ask Brad how many worms he has in his tank :mrgreen:

Steve

[sphelps]

People tend to overreact with certain fish, they themselves will keep such fish without a problem but advise others to avoid them or take extreme precautions which are mostly unnecessary. It's for this reason another larger site had to build primer threads so people could simply post personal experience which others could use, this avoids similar threads to this which cause over-reactions.

Eb, you seem like a smart guy and I don't think you're a fish terrorist so I'm sure you can see through some of the BS out there and do what you believe to be right.

[Eb0la11]

People tend to overreact with certain fish, they themselves will keep such fish without a problem but advise others to avoid them or take extreme precautions which are mostly unnecessary. It's for this reason another larger site had to build primer threads so people could simply post personal experience which others could use, this avoids similar threads to this which cause over-reactions.

Eb, you seem like a smart guy and I don't think you're a fish terrorist so I'm sure you can see through some of the BS out there and do what you believe to be right.

Haha thanks Sphelps, this is exactly how I was feeling lol.

I have taken in the advice from this thread but Ive also done my hw by reading articles and I think my tank is well on the way to providing for a mandarin and already can.

Eventually I'll be getting two, but just so you all know I picked up one from a reefer last night.

[sphelps]

Good for you buddy :thumb:

[Eb0la11]

Oh ya, and he's doing fine so far. Already working over the rocks, looks very peaceful and stress free.

[rocco134]

I added a mandarin only after a month of seting up my 120.... he is doing fine and (i also notice quite a few pods when the lights are out).

[rocco134]

There name definitely suits their disposition (they are like a Zen garden -lol if that makes any sense)

Oh ya, and he's doing fine so far. Already working over the rocks, looks very peaceful and stress free.

[naesco]

I am still in the go for it camp. As you've mentioned the rock you have comes largely from previously established systems and there should be plenty of food for a small mandarin. I've never been able to see the pods my mandarins peck at they are so small, so I also see no point in observing what's crawling around after lights out. Sure there are risks, any new fish can become a casualty for one reason or another. I've tried to back up my reasoning with personal experience and I see there are at least two other posters with positive first hand experiences as well. I have two healthy mandarins in a 77 gallon sumpless tank and you have a 165 with refugium and sump! That's more than twice the size of my system. I've not needed to supercharge the pod population nor have I set up any pod condos. None of the posters advising against getting one have validated their advice with personal experience. I may be wrong and if I am, apologize, but it appears some of this advice is based on second or third party information.

My advice is based on personal experience. In addition I have been on this board and several other boards for many, many years and have read countless thread posted by reefers asking.
My mandarin is not eating what do I feed it?
My mandarin is emaciated what could be the problem? and than
My mandarin is missing?

You posted that "there are risks, any new fish can become a casualty for one reason or another". Starvation is an avoidable risk.

[StirCrazy]

Oh ya, and he's doing fine so far. Already working over the rocks, looks very peaceful and stress free.

which one did you end up getting? green spotted or the psyadelic? and is it a male or female?

Steve

[Eb0la11]

Naesco, thank you for your concern. My mandarin won't be starving. I can see hundreds of pods crawling on the glass of my refugium as we speak and Im sure that they are getting injected into the DT all the time, not to mention I have some very porous rock for pods to grow, mate and live in the DT away from predators, so there is tons there.

I ended up getting a psychedelic and I believe he is a male. Thank you Eyford01 for the mandarin, he is looking better already after being QTed in his tank the last couple days because he was getting picked on by another mandarin. So this is a good setup. Already he is working around the tank, entering the dens of my tangs for example, and not getting picked on for it all while nipping at the rock every so often. He is very happy to be in his new home! :biggrin:

[Bloodasp]

I've had mine for about 5 months now 2 months after my tank was set up. I was also worried about what others were saying about this guys starving to death without live copepods in the tank, I'm pretty sure mine has some but not quite enough to keep up with the mandarin's appetite. I think you were the one that posted about vermetid snails too but I have seen my mandarin take advantage of this, every feeding time these snails cast out their silk to catch those floating food and that's when he goes for the kill and grabs some of the food that gets caught in those things.

[phyto4life]

I've had my mandarin for 7 month's and she needs a new mate in my 90G soon

[banditpowdercoat]

I've often wondered about a Mandarin in my tank. How would they get along in a 150g with a Lawnmower blenny and a Yellow Goby?

[sphelps]

I've often wondered about a Mandarin in my tank. How would they get along in a 150g with a Lawnmower blenny and a Yellow Goby?
I don't see any reasons why those fish wouldn't make suitable tank mates.

[fishoholic]

unless you have the holy grail of mandrins like Marie.

Steve

I must of hit the holy grail too, I have had 3 mandrains and all of them ate mysis and one ate pellets. The 1st one died at 5yrs old (the guy I got him from had him for 3yrs and I had him for 2yrs) the 2nd one from marine velvet and the 3rd is alive and well in my tank and will actively go after mysis, saw him take a piece from my blenny.

[blueyota]

I must of hit the holy grail too, I have had 3 mandrains and all of them ate mysis and one ate pellets. The 1st one died at 5yrs old (the guy I got him from had him for 3yrs and I had him for 2yrs) the 2nd one from marine velvet and the 3rd is alive and well in my tank and will actively go after mysis, saw him take a piece from my blenny.

What kind of blenny do you have fishoholic i have been thinking of getting a mandrian but just worried about my horseface blenny picking on him

[naesco]

I've often wondered about a Mandarin in my tank. How would they get along in a 150g with a Lawnmower blenny and a Yellow Goby?

Bandit if you go through the the thread and meet the requirements for their care you should be alright. The lawnmover blenny is an algae eater and the yellow goby easily eats mysis and other dead food so there will be little competition.

[fishoholic]

What kind of blenny do you have fishoholic i have been thinking of getting a mandrian but just worried about my horseface blenny picking on him

I have a tail spot blenny. However I have had other blennies in the past and they have never picked on my mandarins.

[Eyford01]

From my experience and from what I've heard the only thing that will pick on a mandarin is another mandarin, also the one eb0la11 has is the 1 out of 3 mandarins that I've had that wouldn't eat frozen, also these fish have been successfully bred in captivity although not commercially which I believe to be a positive sign, I think many mandarins CAN be trained to frozen if the time and effort are put into it, but it is a combination of stubborn fish who won't take it and the intimidation of the work required to train them which can sometimes take monthes that puts alot of people off, but in my opinion it's worth it for the awesome lil guys

haha this sure is a good way to open a can of worms though! Ah just for the hell of it let me stoke the fire a little more:
-tangs do fine in a 20g
-moorish idols are great little beginners fish
-(for those with skimmers) skimmers are useless you don't need em
-(for those without skimmers) skimmers are necessary you are horrible fish keepers

now to sit back and watch the controversy begin!

[don.ald]

LOL troublemaker!
if you have a tang in a 20g. you will never have to worry about hair algae!!

From my experience and from what I've heard the only thing that will pick on a mandarin is another mandarin, also the one eb0la11 has is the 1 out of 3 mandarins that I've had that wouldn't eat frozen, also these fish have been successfully bred in captivity although not commercially which I believe to be a positive sign, I think many mandarins CAN be trained to frozen if the time and effort are put into it, but it is a combination of stubborn fish who won't take it and the intimidation of the work required to train them which can sometimes take monthes that puts alot of people off, but in my opinion it's worth it for the awesome lil guys

haha this sure is a good way to open a can of worms though! Ah just for the hell of it let me stoke the fire a little more:
-tangs do fine in a 20g
-moorish idols are great little beginners fish
-(for those with skimmers) skimmers are useless you don't need em
-(for those without skimmers) skimmers are necessary you are horrible fish keepers

now to sit back and watch the controversy begin!

[sphelps]

From my experience and from what I've heard the only thing that will pick on a mandarin is another mandarin, also the one eb0la11 has is the 1 out of 3 mandarins that I've had that wouldn't eat frozen, also these fish have been successfully bred in captivity although not commercially which I believe to be a positive sign, I think many mandarins CAN be trained to frozen if the time and effort are put into it, but it is a combination of stubborn fish who won't take it and the intimidation of the work required to train them which can sometimes take monthes that puts alot of people off, but in my opinion it's worth it for the awesome lil guys

haha this sure is a good way to open a can of worms though! Ah just for the hell of it let me stoke the fire a little more:
-tangs do fine in a 20g
-moorish idols are great little beginners fish
-(for those with skimmers) skimmers are useless you don't need em
-(for those without skimmers) skimmers are necessary you are horrible fish keepers

now to sit back and watch the controversy begin!
Sounds about right :wink:

I agree with what you said about mandarins though, I don't believe there is much out there that will pick on them. There coloration seems to work well as a defense system. Even my lionfish won't eat one :mrgreen:

[StirCrazy]

who needs a 20 gal tank.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/crystalk/tangcube.jpg

Steve

[Eyford01]

who needs a 20 gal tank.
Steve

... Oh my! That raises so many questions...

But I believe part of the mandarins defense is that their thick slime layer is rather nasty tasting or potentialy poisonous, so I propose an experiment: everyone with a mandarin please go lick your fish and relay back to us how it was... If I never hear back from anyone I'll assume they are indeed poisonous and will be over to steal your choice frags shortly

[sphelps]

But I believe part of the mandarins defense is that their thick slime layer is rather nasty tasting or potentialy poisonous, so I propose an experiment: everyone with a mandarin please go lick your fish and relay back to us how it was... If I never hear back from anyone I'll assume they are indeed poisonous and will be over to steal your choice frags shortly
It's the coloration, in the ocean bright colors mean poisonous or bad tasting which protects the species. Sea slugs use the same type of defense.

[Fishward]

who needs a 20 gal tank.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/crystalk/tangcube.jpg

Steve

talk about "stir crazy"... how about that tang...

[phyto4life]

I have a algae blenny with my mandarin with no problem

I also bought a small female as my first mandarin in my 90G with 25G sump just to make sure she survives

[phyto4life]

Bandit if you go through the the thread and meet the requirements for their care you should be alright. The lawnmover blenny is an algae eater and the yellow goby easily eats mysis and other dead food so there will be little competition.

agreed

[banditpowdercoat]

Lawmower blenny eats Algae, someone better tell hiim that LOL. he eats more Mysis than my Tangs do!!!

[StirCrazy]

Lawmower blenny eats Algae, someone better tell hiim that LOL. he eats more Mysis than my Tangs do!!!

yes they will just like a tank does.. especialy if the right kinda of algae isn't available. Lawnmowers are misnammed as they are primarly a film algae eater.. leave one pain of your glass unleaned and you will see his little kiss marks all over it.

Steve