Ethical question: What would you do? UPDATE: HOLY COW I CAUGHT HIM ON THE 1ST TRY!

[fishoholic]

So I've been feeling guilty lately and finally decided to ask others their opinions. Basically I have a somewhat ethical dilemma with the fish in my FOWLR tank. As most of you know my King angel is pretty (to very) mean towards other fish. However she is my dream fish she is healthy she survived the marine velvet and I can't imagine ever giving her up which leads me to my dilemma.

My king angel is and has been picking on my foxface and my emperor angel. My foxface is somewhat ballsy and always swims out in the open knowing that by doing so, every now and then, my king angel will nip at his fins. So it isn't all the time but it's certainly enough of the time that my foxface has a fairly nipped up tail :sad:

As for my emperor he's not allowed to come out and swim in the open....pretty much ever....he basically has a spot at the back of the tank where he's safe and the king angel wont bite him. The only time the emperor comes out is when I feed the tank. At that time the king is distracted by the food so she doesn't notice that the emperor has come out, so the emperor has a few minutes to swim out in the open and eat then it's back to his hiding spot. As soon as the king notices the emperor move out from his hiding spot she chases him right back in. As long as he stays there he's safe, if he tries to come out he gets nipped, so he's pretty much learned to just stay put.

Now if I'm being honest with myself I know that this is not a great life for these fish :sad:, but the thought of re-homing them makes me sad because I care for them and (maybe it's selfish) but I don't want to give them up :cry:

Then there's the excuses: What if I re-home them and they're not any better off; What if they die in someone else's tank; The emperor was mean to the fish in the guys tank that I got him from, what if he's mean to the new tanks fish; If they're gone from the tank will the king angel then just pick on one of the other fish, even though she doesn't pick on them now? *sigh*

Then there's the thought: Wouldn't it be nice for the foxface to be able to swim around and not get nipped at, and for the emperor to be able to enjoy swimming around open and freely. *sigh*

I'm torn as to what to do, basically my heart is saying one thing and my head another. The foxface would have to be re-homed as we already have another foxface (magnificent) in the reef tank and I don't want to chance any fighting. I've also half thought about the emperor going into the reef tank but since he picked on small fish in the tank I got him from (and I have mostly small fish in the reef) I'm not so sure about that. I also have zoos that he might find tasty and it would suck if he ate them. Plus the reef tank already has a fair amount of fish in it, so that's something to keep in mind. I could swap out the pink tail trigger (he swims into the net when I feed my eel so he'd be easy to catch) and emperor but the trigger is doing well in the reef and I'd hate for him to go into the fowlr and have the king pick on him, however the king leaves the bursa trigger alone so maybe he wouldn't pick on the pink tail, but then who knows? and what if the pink tail started picking on the bursa.....AHHHHHH!!!!!! Too much over thinking!!!!! Also if I put the emperor in the reef it would be extremely hard to get him back out, so if problems occurred after the fact I'd be somewhat SOL.

So everyone if you were me WHAT WOULD YOU DO!?! Please Help!

[mark]

Bigger tank.

Seriously someone has to go and I'd probably pick the aggressor. Be hard enough to get rid of the other fish then only to find the King starts picking on the others remaining.

Have you tried a big reorg of the rock work?

[Chin_Lee]

PUt a mirror in front of the tank and let the King Angel take out its aggression on itself for a few day. then see what happens fter you take away the mirror. Might have to do it a few times and see if things improve.

[loveless]

x2. In my tank if you dont play nice then yer gone. Its not fair to the other fish and it is definitely not the environment I shoot for in a tank. Doing a reorg of the rockwork might work as an alternative.

[Leah]

You already know the answer when you ask the question :sad:

[RuGlu6]

Follow your hart, intuition is always the right choice.

[StirCrazy]

I would say rehome the emporor. the fox face is totaly capable of defending himself, mind you if he realy gets thretened he cold kill the other fish with his spines.

but start there and see how it goes.. with one less fish the agression might slow down or stop.

Steve

[fishoholic]

Bigger tank.

Seriously someone has to go and I'd probably pick the aggressor. Be hard enough to get rid of the other fish then only to find the King starts picking on the others remaining.

Have you tried a big reorg of the rock work?

The problem is, is that the main reason I set up the 230g fowlr tank is so that I could have a king angel. If I sold this king angel I would get another, and possibly have the same problem occur that I'm having now, as most king angels are aggressive. However I might get lucky and find one (like my sohal tang) that's not aggressive but that seems unlikely. Then there's also the problem of finding a healthy king angel for sale in the store and also finding a person that I approve of that would be willing to buy my king angel.

Basically a few months ago I thought for a brief moment about re-homing my king angel but after all I've been through with her: The whole marine velvet incident, her being my only angel who survived it, and her surviving was the main reason I didn't shut down the fowlr tank after losing most of my fish. I just could never bring myself to give her up. She is mean but it's her tank and I love her the most.

So even though it would be hard to re-home the other fish re-homing my king angel isn't going to happen. She has never showed any interest in the other fish with her in the tank. I think because they are so different from her that that is why she's ok with them. I honestly don't think she would start to pick on the others once the 2 fish she is picking on are gone. However I don't really know but I don't think she would.

Moving rock around in the past never helped.....bigger tank you say :mrgreen: :wink: Unfortunately there's no room or money for one :sad:

[Chase31]

give her the sump treatment for a few days?
maybe help a lil

[fishoholic]

PUt a mirror in front of the tank and let the King Angel take out its aggression on itself for a few day. then see what happens fter you take away the mirror. Might have to do it a few times and see if things improve.

I tried that, she half looks at herself then mostly avoids the side of the tank the mirror is on. You would think she'd attack her image but for some odd reason she doesn't.

You already know the answer when you ask the question :sad:

There's a difference between knowing the answer and having others pound it into your head so you actually do end up doing the right thing :wink:

[Delphinus]

It's a hard decision to rehome a fish (or fishes) but I think when you (the proverbial "you" not the literal "you") know that the fish are not the best off in your tank, then you should sell them. Indeed, the "what if they die" question. Well, the thing is, until you sell them, they are "your fish" and thus you can be choosy to whom you sell. I've only sold 2 fish out of my care, my virgatus rabbitfish pair that I sold to make room for a pair of doliatus rabbitfish .. I agonized over the decision but in the end they went to a tank 4 times the volume of the tank they came out of. So, .. it's not all doom and gloom out there.

The next thing to say is it hardly seems a dream fish if it causes you sadness to see the aggression between the two.

Here's my suggestion. Try to visualize your tank without someone in it. If it causes you intense sadness, visualize a different someone. Ok so if they all cause sadness this isn't going to work but I think sometimes you can honestly visualize an option that would cause you relief. If you can visualize it .. then you know what to do.

Good luck Laurie.

[naesco]

Thank you for recognizing that you have a serious ethical problem. The attitude of the King is hell on the other fish in the tank.
You either get rid of the King to another reefer who has a tank large enough to accommodate her (300+ gallons) or re=home the other fish.
I think you will find the latter easier on you.
Thank you for asking for our opinion.

[Marlin65]

My vote is to find a new home for your emperor and hope the rest work it out.

[Leah]

It is a tough choice and usually are gut tells us what to do. I know you will find the best possible solution may take some time but you really have to do what you think is best. I know you will do it Laurie.

[fishoholic]

I would say rehome the emporor. the fox face is totaly capable of defending himself, mind you if he realy gets thretened he cold kill the other fish with his spines.

but start there and see how it goes.. with one less fish the agression might slow down or stop.

Steve

That's a good thought, however she nips the foxface's tail often, whereas I think sometimes she forgets the emperor is even in there. The only time she remembers him is if he tries to swim out from his hiding spot, then she rushes over and scares him back into it. I was hoping that as he changed into his adult colouration and got bigger he would get braver and the king would leave him alone, but now I'm not so sure of that.

So unfortunately with the emperor gone I doubt it would make much of a difference for the foxface.

give her the sump treatment for a few days?
maybe help a lil

She is way to big to fit in my sump. Plus somehow I don't think it would make a difference. When I had my QT set up for all my fish getting treatment for marine velvet my king angel kept attacking my sohal tang, who is pretty close to the same size as her, and he of all fish should of been able to hold his own against her, but he was afraid of her.

In fact my foxface is the only fish she has picked on that doesn't seem to be too afraid of her. Maybe because he stands up to her she only sort of picks on him by nipping his tail every now and then. With other fish she will relentlessly go after them until she'd probably kill them if I'd let her. Had to re-home my blue ring angel because she was picking on him horribly. Tried a sailfin tang (who was being aggressive in another persons tank) and in the 2 minutes the sailfin was in the fowlr tank my king angel managed to shred his side fin, nip up his tail and slice the top half of the sailfin's sailfin right in half :sad: Good thing we were able to pull him back out right away because I'm not sure I'd want to think about what would of happened if we couldn't of.

[fishoholic]

It's a hard decision to rehome a fish (or fishes) but I think when you (the proverbial "you" not the literal "you") know that the fish are not the best off in your tank, then you should sell them. Indeed, the "what if they die" question. Well, the thing is, until you sell them, they are "your fish" and thus you can be choosy to whom you sell. I've only sold 2 fish out of my care, my virgatus rabbitfish pair that I sold to make room for a pair of doliatus rabbitfish .. I agonized over the decision but in the end they went to a tank 4 times the volume of the tank they came out of. So, .. it's not all doom and gloom out there.

The next thing to say is it hardly seems a dream fish if it causes you sadness to see the aggression between the two.

Here's my suggestion. Try to visualize your tank without someone in it. If it causes you intense sadness, visualize a different someone. Ok so if they all cause sadness this isn't going to work but I think sometimes you can honestly visualize an option that would cause you relief. If you can visualize it .. then you know what to do.

Good luck Laurie.

You're right there are a lot of good homes out there and I will be picky about who they go to. I mostly likely will give the foxface to someone I trust. The emperor is a hard one because I love emperors and he's in the middle of changing colours and it's amazing to watch. I'm leaning towards putting him in the reef, but I'm not sure if I can convince Steve to try it out.

Interesting what you say about the visualization technique, because that is exactly what I did when Ken (from Blue World) offered my king a home in his larger display tank. However when I got right down to it A: I know I will always want a king angel and B: I couldn't picture my tank without her in it, as she is my prized fish whom I love despite all her faults. So as sad as the thought of re-homing the others is, the thought of losing her is much worse.

Thank you for recognizing that you have a serious ethical problem. The attitude of the King is hell on the other fish in the tank.
You either get rid of the King to another reefer who has a tank large enough to accommodate her (300+ gallons) or re=home the other fish.
I think you will find the latter easier on you.
Thank you for asking for our opinion.

You are right as the later will be easier on me.

Also I appreciate everyone's opinions. It's helps to hear others tell you the right thing to do, because there are times when you know what's the right thing but you don't always want to completely admit it.

[StirCrazy]

That's a good thought, however she nips the foxface's tail often, whereas I think sometimes she forgets the emperor is even in there. The only time she remembers him is if he tries to swim out from his hiding spot, then she rushes over and scares him back into it. I was hoping that as he changed into his adult colouration and got bigger he would get braver and the king would leave him alone, but now I'm not so sure of that.

So unfortunately with the emperor gone I doubt it would make much of a difference for the foxface.




the emperor is in constant hiding, where the fox face is still out and about. we feel bad as there is some nipped fins, but the foxface doesn't mind much otherwide he wouldn't come out.. her would be hiding in the corner like the emperor.

also the foxface is not an angel so you would mostlikely have less agression with the foxface than if you left the emperor. thats why he is in hiding all the time.. the big guy goes after the emperor so hard that he is just staying in that little corner. I think getting rid of the foxface would be the worst way to go.. one of the others should be the one to leave. or buy a 600 gal tank:wink:

Steve

[nlreefguy]

I read an article lately in a marine aquarium magazine where the guy added a large puffer to his tank to diffuse the aggression (kinda like adding a cop to the tank) and it really worked out for him. I can't remember who it was now but it was a prominent hobby journalist (might have been Coral magazine, not sure). Just another thought but may or may not work in your situation.

[steve fedyk]

I would move the emperor and fox face to the reef.

[goby1]

I would move the emperor and fox face to the reef.

x2, See what happens and go from there.

[my2rotties]

Well Laurie, I don't know what to tell you. You know what I have told you about the king angel. When I had my Emp he always hid a lot anyways. Just the nature of the fish to be honest. Why not set that tank as an aggressive tank with fish that the King won't mess around with. You know, lion fish and the likes.

You know how much I LOVED Griffie but he started killing other fish and now he is in the best home possible where his new owner adores him. I had to rehome my Sohal tang as well, and when I took him out fo the tank it was instant peace. I had no idea of how bad things really were until he actually came out. I had him in my holding tank in the basement thinking maybe I would isolate him and then put him back into the display... when I saw the instant peace, I knew it would not happen.

My Emp used to eat zoas and things like that so the reef tank may not be the best choice. However if you want to sell your Emp, I will meet you in Red Deer if you want... mind you, I have my Regal angel and don't know if he would cause grief with him.

If I were you and HAD to keep the King, I would rehome some fish and set it up as an aggressive tank. It would be way cool as well.

[fishoholic]

the emperor is in constant hiding, where the fox face is still out and about. we feel bad as there is some nipped fins, but the foxface doesn't mind much otherwide he wouldn't come out.. her would be hiding in the corner like the emperor.

also the foxface is not an angel so you would mostlikely have less agression with the foxface than if you left the emperor. thats why he is in hiding all the time.. the big guy goes after the emperor so hard that he is just staying in that little corner. I think getting rid of the foxface would be the worst way to go.. one of the others should be the one to leave. or buy a 600 gal tank:wink:

Steve

After thinking a lot about this last night, I really thought about what you said about how the foxface is able to defend himself and how the emperor needs to be the first to move since the king has cornered him. So this morning I talked to Steve and he was ok with the emperor moving to the reef tank. I figured I would take this step first and then continue to monitor the king's aggression towards the foxface and if it gets really bad (goes further than just a nipped tail) then I will look into re-homing the foxface. Right now the foxface swims out in the open and doesn't let the king's bad behavior bother him.

Why not set that tank as an aggressive tank with fish that the King won't mess around with. You know, lion fish and the likes.


If I were you and HAD to keep the King, I would rehome some fish and set it up as an aggressive tank. It would be way cool as well.

This is basically what I'm doing. The original plan for the tank was to be a tank of a few angel fish but now it will be more of an aggressive tank, which it basically is. The tank has the king angel, foxface, bursa trigger, lunare wrasse, miniatus grouper and blue spot toby puffer. Maybe later down the road I will add a lion fish.

[fishoholic]

Well that was easy :surprise: So I was expecting this 1-2 hour, arms soaking wet, a few bad words and getting really ticked off attempt after attempt before I would actually catch the emperor.

I ended up basically catching him on the first try :jaw: I know he only comes out of hiding to eat so I poured some mysis into the tank and in one quick move I swooped the net under him and then I literally almost fell over (in shock) when I realized he really was in the net :surprise: I have tired this in the past many many many many times and it has never worked before. I actually said "Holy (insert bad "S" word here) I can't believe I just caught him" It even took me a few seconds to realize he really was in the net, I was all like "He can't be in there that was too easy" but there he was, so over to the reef tank he went. FYI my 2 tanks are right across from each other with just a few feet separating them.

So I'm happy to say the emperor seems to be setting into his new home nicely. He hid for a few minutes and now he's swimming out in the open front and center. Best of all he's not getting picked on and he's not picking on anyone. Let's hope it stays that way and lets hope he doesn't like Steve's zoos.

[fishoholic]

Emperor in his new home

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/Laurie_Morin/DSC_1893.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/Laurie_Morin/DIY%20skimmer/DSC_1892.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/Laurie_Morin/DIY%20skimmer/DSC_1889.jpg

[Marlin65]

Looking good lets hope he leaves your reef intact and you will be good to go.

[Delphinus]

:cool:

[BlueWorldAquatic]

I ended up basically catching him on the first try :jaw:

That's probaly because he wanted out. :mrgreen: And was waiting for you to decide.

I had a Lionfish in the store that was in one of my tanks for 2 months, and when we finally sold him, he literally jumped into the bag. The customer couldn't belive what he saw.

I told the custome he wanted the "Hell" out of the store, and new a good home awaited him.

Ken

[Leah]

Way to go Laurie..... sure looks good in there. Keepin my fingers crossed that he plays nice.:biggrin:

[BlueTang<3]

i had a yellow headed sleeper goby a big one like smokie size and he would burry everything cost me lots of corals tried for weeks to catch him then one time i had the net and my gf held seaweed other side he was crazy for seaweed darted right into the net almost blew it out of my hands lol sounds like you got lucky

[Willito]

Down the road if you want to try the same fish combination again, you can maybe try this.

Get rid of that large King Angel and buy the smallest one you can find, perhaps 3". But before doing that, think of all the other angels that you would like to add and do that first. Starting with the smallest or most timid ones. Let them settle in for a couple months and then add your meaniest fish, King angel. This strategy worked for me. I have had two Emperors, one regal, one blueface , one majestic, one asfur, and 3 flames. All in a tank half your size. And this was just angels we're talking about, the tank also had 9 tangs and some other fishes. Angels treat each other much better when crowded. The more space they have the more territorial they become, your tank is a perfect example.

IME, this method worked for me as the fish were still young, between 4-6". I don't know how they would behave once they all reach 6-7" plus. My guess is that the agression of the largest emperor would rule the tank and if it pairs up with the smaller one, who knows how it would turn out. I had this combination of fish for a year and changed it over to a reef. I currently still have a pair of Emperor and one Regal happily swimming together. Fingers cross for the Emperors to pair up.

All that aside, we're talking about the King Angel here, would think very hard before mixing it with other angels.

[fishoholic]

That's probaly because he wanted out. :mrgreen: And was waiting for you to decide.

Ken

It almost seems that way....

sounds like you got lucky

.....but I have to agree, I really do think it's more likely that I just got lucky

Way to go Laurie..... sure looks good in there. Keepin my fingers crossed that he plays nice.:biggrin:

Thanks, I hope he plays nice too. So far so good, but then it's only been one day :biggrin:

[fishoholic]

Down the road if you want to try the same fish combination again, you can maybe try this.

Get rid of that large King Angel and buy the smallest one you can find, perhaps 3". But before doing that, think of all the other angels that you would like to add and do that first. Starting with the smallest or most timid ones. Let them settle in for a couple months and then add your meaniest fish, King angel. This strategy worked for me. I have had two Emperors, one regal, one blueface , one majestic, one asfur, and 3 flames. All in a tank half your size. And this was just angels we're talking about, the tank also had 9 tangs and some other fishes. Angels treat each other much better when crowded. The more space they have the more territorial they become, your tank is a perfect example.

IME, this method worked for me as the fish were still young, between 4-6". I don't know how they would behave once they all reach 6-7" plus. My guess is that the agression of the largest emperor would rule the tank and if it pairs up with the smaller one, who knows how it would turn out. I had this combination of fish for a year and changed it over to a reef. I currently still have a pair of Emperor and one Regal happily swimming together. Fingers cross for the Emperors to pair up.

All that aside, we're talking about the King Angel here, would think very hard before mixing it with other angels.

Originally that was the plan. I had all my other angels (queen, blue face, emperor, blue ring, & regal) in the fowlr tank before adding the king. I had wanted a juvi king (thinking a juvi would be less aggressive) but a friend of mine found me an adult king in Calgary for a good price and I couldn't pass her up. I meet him at one in the morning to pick her up because that was the time he got back in to Edmonton from his trip to Calgary. The king was mean to all the other angels right from the start. Unfortunately a few weeks later and a bad tang choice, marine velvet killed off all my other angel fish.

So now I have a mean King (who I love very much) and I am willing to change my whole original tank plan for. So as long as I have her she will be the only angel in the tank. The only angel I know of that supposedly could hold it's own against her, would be a large (would need to be bigger then the king) french angel. However I don't want to put a really big french angel in my tank (the only way I would consider it is if someone on here had one that was in a small tank and needed to re-home it) also I don't know for sure if the french would be ok with the king or not, so I'm not sure I'd want to risk it.

If my king ever dies (hopefully not for a very very long time) then I would try different angels again. Starting with the more timid ones and the most aggressive one last. I would also make sure if I ever got another king I would find a young juvi that would be smaller then all the other angels.