Raw Pet Food

[RobynR]

My husband and I are looking into raw pet food diets for our cat and dog.

Our cat is overweight, we are currently feeding her Wellness, and although she likes it, she is not doing as well on it, as we had hoped. The vet is continually pushing their 'prescription' food and looking at the ingredient list makes me shudder. Not to mention, the cat has not really loved anything they've sent home with her.

Our dog is a Mini Schnauzer who is about a year and a half old. She is eating Now! and is doing fine on it but we are looking at more natural feeding options. We currently supplement her diet with raw marrow bones and fresh fruit and veggies.

I suggested to the vet we were researching raw diets and they freaked, telling me it is an awful idea and could make our pets very sick. I'm sure it could, but from the looks of it, if done properly has actually been very successful for many people.

Diana, I know from a previous thread, you are feeding a raw diet to your dogs; can you please suggest a couple of links to sites that have facts about it? Also, can you tell me the specifics of your dog's diets? How long have you had them on it?

Does anyone on here feed their cats a raw diet? This has been much harder to find info on than dogs and info or links would be appreciated.

Many Thanks, Robyn

[Leah]

Myka also feeds her dog raw food as well. :biggrin:

[365seasons]

I'm not sure about cats, but we feed our boxer a raw diet, and I will never again feed a pet anything else in my life. It has done nothing but good things for our dog. Feeding raw worked better than any supplement or vitamin after he got surgery on a torn ACL.

Hopefully you can find some information for cats. Best of luck.

[Aquattro]

Raw is the only way to go, IMO. A bit more work, but well worth it. I think the only difference between dogs and cats, is cats need 100% protein. Dogs can have added veggies( I don't add any, but that's an argument for elsewhere:))
You have options of buying prepackaged products, from minced "stuff" to butcher blocks of meat, or ust feeding meat with bones. There are a lot of great sites on feeding raw.
Here's a good one to start with

http://www.rawlearning.com/

[RobynR]

Thanks for the link Brad! I will check it out tonight.

Another question; for those of you that do feed raw, what do your vets say about it?

Mine seriously thought I was crazy when I mentioned we were considering it. They were very strongly against it.

[Aquattro]

Some vets are supportive, some not so much. It depends on their background and what they've been taught in canine nutrition class. One vet told me it was, bad, the next told me to cook the meat (really bad advice with bones in tact) and the last vet I talked to only had concerns about a clean cooking environment for raw feeders that might have kids and such. Many go on about puncture injuries, which are certainly possible, but none could actually claim to ever having seen one personally.
One of the sites details a lot about disspelling myths of raw feeding, and why vets, many whom have only had a few hours total education on canine nutrition, have the opinions they do.
Most people I associate with in my dog friend circle feed raw, and have been for years. These dogs are all in great shape, can chase sheep all damn day and still have energy to play some fetch after dinner. :) There are lots of benefits, some risks, to you and/or your dog, and doing lots of research will let you make a choice that is right for your animals.

Oh, found the myths link, give that one a read

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

[brickwood]

Check this link out. This lady knows her stuff.

www.chowfornow.ca

[MitchM]

I'm another supporter of a raw food diet. We put our 10 week old puppy (black russian terrier) on it straight away when we got her and we have seen no ill effects from it. She is 6 months old now.
Feeding raw food is not as convenient as feeding dry kibble, but it seems like she drinks less water and has smaller poops than other dogs her size.
I'm really surprised at how strongly some vets can come down on a raw food diet. I don't buy their arguments/reasoning, especially after that melamine disaster a while ago.
It's raw meat, treat it as such. Maybe take a food safety handling course to educate yourself about it.

Mitch

[StirCrazy]

I don't do raw as it just won't work for us. but the next best thing is some of the very high quality kibble. I feed my doggie Orijen regional red, and we are switching the cat over to Orijen's can food. very high proteen and no crap.

I have two vets, they make me laugh as one is on line with me about shots, feeding ect.. the other pushes there med-i-cal and all stages, puppy, adolesent, ect.. I just stopped mentioning what I feed when I have him as we had a 1/2 hour argument and he wasn't impressed when I told him he is recomending one of the worst foods on the market :mrgreen:

here is some info on the orijen

"ORIJEN 6 FISH CAT is formulated with a Biologically Appropriate ingredient ratio (70/30/0) of 70% meat, 30% fruit and vegetables (and 0% grain)—all slow-cooked at low temperatures to retain their natural goodness. "

and the ingreadiance

INGREDIENTS
Fresh deboned salmon, herring meal, salmon meal, russet potato, fresh deboned northern walleye, salmon oil, peas, potato starch, whitefish meal, sweet potato, fresh deboned Lake Whitefish, fresh deboned herring, natural fish flavors, fresh deboned lake trout, fresh deboned flounder, sun cured alfalfa, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, Saskatoon berries, black currants, psyllium, choline chloride, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, zinc proteinate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, iron proteinate, vitamin B6, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, folic acid, vitamin C, biotin.

Steve

[mws]

Hi! I feed both to my dogs, because of the cost of raw alone. Raw in a late afternoon and kibble(grain free) before bad time. Never mix two together.
You can find some links on my website.I been on this schedule for 5 years and my dogs don't have year infections anymore.(used to be chronic)
There eyes don't tear, coats are great and so on.

Old school vet freaking out - nothing new there.You probably will have to find a holistic vet, other wise everything happens to your dog or cat will be blamed on raw.
Dogs and cats diet is very much the same, just don't stick with same type of meat all the time. Many people forget it's a lot of different proteins out there, other then beef and chicken. Don't stress your self out for the raw not being a complete diet, as long as you have a variety over a week period, you are fine.

Good luck,
Natalia Koutsil
Larkspur Standard Poodles
www.larkspurpoodles.com

[Diana]

Hiya. Yes I do feed raw to my dogs (3 miniature pinschers). One gets only raw 100% because she has allergies. The other two will get at least one meal of raw a day and occasionally one meal of an extremely high quality kibble (EVO). We do this mainly for convenience and cost. Our cat also gets some raw and some EVO cat kibbles.

I personally do not prefer feeding kibbles but my fiance still has some troubles defrosting raw food daily (sigh).

As far as what raw foods we feed, it varies. We used to feed chicken but I've kind of leaned away from that because I just don't like feeding it. We rotate between unique and different protein sources. Buffalo, lamb, and venison. We don't usually do beef because of allergies. Mostly we purchase Nature's Variety for convenience. They have good percentages of meat, bone, offal, and veggies.

http://www.naturesvariety.com/rawDOG

Sometimes we will buy different brands of meats just for variety. :) They have been on raw for about a year and a half now.

Yeah and you can expect vets to have different reactions. Most of them get their nutritional training from pet food companies. The holistic vet I go to reccommends raw however wants to ensure the animals are getting proper amino acids, etc. We also got a little omega-boost additive that is probably mostly fish oil.

:)
Cheers!
-Diana

[Ryan]

You know I tried the raw diet when I 1st got my shorthair and can honestly say I didnt say any difference between it and a high quality kibble other than the kibble is 99% easier to feed. I raised him on Acana (its made right here in AB) and recently switched him to Eukanuba after some flatulance issues with him. Now both him and my setter are on Euk and are doing awesome.

This dog took Best Of Breed 4 times in his short show carrier, beating the #4 GSP in canada multiple times as a 9-14 month old puppy. He also earned a Field Dog title and I am 1 pass away from an obedience title. Needless to say I am pretty happy with the results I seen from a good kibble.

I have now started supplementing kibble though with yogurt, or grease especially during the fall when he is hunting hard and is always getting bathed. Keeps his coat nice, shiny and his skin moist so there is no dandruf.

[Aquattro]

Raw (as in prey model) has a few benefits that I like. Crunching through bones is great for the teeth, no plaque build up. The in:out ratio is way higher (this is the ratio of food going in the sharp end vs: the food coming out the wagging end). Cleanup is a breeze, and if you forget, it just dries up and goes away.
Overall, coat and skin are in better shape, no doggy smell especially on one of my girls, and overall increased vigor.
Cost of Orijen kibble, even with a discount, is roughly $150/month. Raw costs me about $80/mo, so a huge benefit there. I do get a huge discount on chicken backs though, so not sure how price measures up for the average consumer.
Overall though, if one has the time for it, I think it's a great diet, and better than kibble can ever be. Kibble isn't bad, it just isn't as good, IMO

[Aquattro]

I don't do raw as it just won't work for us.
Steve

You want me to talk to her?? :)

[StirCrazy]

You want me to talk to her?? :)

haha. like when has you talking to her ever worked LOL

chicken back would be more expensive than the orijen kibble for me.. not by much.. unless I want to order 100lbs and then take some out to thaw every night.

what do you do for veggies? every raw diet I have read has veggies also.

Steve

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I have been thinking of switching my 7 month old to raw because he has some allergies and my vet just keeps pushing Medi-cal. Forget it...its way over priced and I have heard its not great food. Of course he is pushing it though, he sells it!

We have a raw foods wholesaler who lives in my building and will sell to me at cost, so no real reason not to try it other than the defrosting. How long does this take and how is it done?

What about for cats? One of my cats seems to have some allergies as well but once again the vets only answer is to feed him medi-cal.

Thanks!

[StirCrazy]

I have been thinking of switching my 7 month old to raw because he has some allergies and my vet just keeps pushing Medi-cal. Forget it...its way over priced and I have heard its not great food. Of course he is pushing it though, he sells it!

Thanks!

hehe, ya not great is an understatment. it is one of the worst foods out there from the ratings page. wanna have some fun.. tell that to your vet and watch him try explain his way out of it.

Steve

[MitchM]

I don't think that vets should be selling food products in their practices. It gives a tacit endorsement, and I think it's a conflict of interest.
For me anyways, it takes away some of their credibility for feeding advice.
We feed our dog the prepared "dinner" raw diets, which comes mixed with vegetables, bone, muscle, and organ meat. Every now and then we will put some extra raw pumpkin for extra fibre.

Mitch

[Ryan]

Medi-Cal is one of the worst foods out there.

Acana has a whole line of kibble geared for dogs with allergies. I really like to show people the Salmon and Sweet Potatoe when I hear they have a dog allergic to other foods.

[Diana]

The best thing to do is just read the ingredients list. If it has any grain, rice, potato, or other carbo filler then it is no good for dogs/cats. I always laugh at pet food commercials when they say "contains natural whole grains" and a pretty picture of wheat floats across the screen and make it seem like its such a good thing. Someone is doing a great marketing job when they can make you believe its good for your pets to eat!

But that is true of fast food commercials too...

-Diana

[StirCrazy]

The best thing to do is just read the ingredients list. If it has any grain, rice, potato, or other carbo filler then it is no good for dogs/cats. I always laugh at pet food commercials when they say "contains natural whole grains" and a pretty picture of wheat floats across the screen and make it seem like its such a good thing. Someone is doing a great marketing job when they can make you believe its good for your pets to eat!

But that is true of fast food commercials too...

-Diana

not nessasarly true.. dogs do need some carbs, unlike cats. the issue is which sources they are using for carbs. potatos, whole veggies, fruit, ect = ok, grain, rice, yeast, ect = not ok. also you have to look at the type of meat, by-products = garbage and then the amount of meat compared to other things.

the biggest problem is big companies like nestle, dare, ect are buying up the dog food companies to they can use there byproducts from making other things as filler in dog and cat food, so they save money two ways.

I will stick with champion foods, small alberta company that makes orijen, arcana, and one other line they do everything in house from making the food to packaging, and they source quality local ingreadiants. family run, and they feed it to there own pets.. doesn't hurt that it is concidered one of the best dog foods out there also..

Steve

[RobynR]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback!!

I have a small update on our vet situation; Sophie, our Mini Schnauzer, went in for her annual exam on Tuesday. Our last vet left the clinic and moved to Victoria a few months ago.

Sophie is terrified of the vet since she got spayed last year and was shaking pretty badly. The first thing the new guy asked me when we go there (before I had even put her on the table) was; what do you feed her? That immediately got my back up. I told him, and he said we should be feeding MediCal; it would help her 'severe' anxiety and would be good for her teeth. - Are you kidding me?!!. I informed him that he was there to provide medical services for my animals and not to sell me dog food.

Apparently I also have a bad attitude about vaccinations, as I asked him to make sure that he was not about to give her the one she had a past reaction to and he got really offended and never actually gave her any vaccination. He said if I did not want his advice, we could take our animals elsewhere. So I took Sophie and walked out. The next morning I called and asked them for out pet's records.

I now have an appointment with a holistic vet, whom has had fantastic recommendations from several people in our community. He feeds raw and I'm really excited for our appointment next week.

[Aquattro]

what do you do for veggies? every raw diet I have read has veggies also.

Steve

I don't feed anything but meat. Every (prepared) diet i read about mentions using veggies (presumeably as filler), however dogs don't produce enough enzyme (amalayse, I believe) to digest it. And anytime the dogs take it upon themselves to munch on some grass, it comes out the same way it went in.
The whole "wolves eat stomach contents" argument does not adequately prove anything, as many reasearchers have witnessed that the contents are shaken away and discarded, and any that is consumed is simply secondary to eating the stomach itself. Also, the volume of said contents is insignificant at best.
I feed a big variety of meat (chicken, beef, deer, fish) with organ meats and an occasional egg.
No veggies at all.
Lots of people on both sides of this fence, but dogs, as demonstrated by their dental structure, are carnivores.

[Aquattro]

Apparently I also have a bad attitude about vaccinations,

That's a whole 'nother thread :)

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

hehe, ya not great is an understatment. it is one of the worst foods out there from the ratings page. wanna have some fun.. tell that to your vet and watch him try explain his way out of it.

Steve

I'd love to but after the last visit, I am never going back. It has become very apparent that his solution to everything is either Medi-Cal or the pheromones he sells to calm cats/dogs down for around $100 each. My problem is not whether these products are useful or not but that he doesn't really do much thinking about the problem, just reverts back to food every time. Or when my cat had a blood shoot eye, he blamed the stress of a new dog and wanted me to buy these pheromones for $100...turned out the cat had some hair in his eye and once I removed it, his eye cleared up :)

[StirCrazy]

I don't feed anything but meat. Every (prepared) diet i read about mentions using veggies (presumeably as filler), however dogs don't produce enough enzyme (amalayse, I believe) to digest it. And anytime the dogs take it upon themselves to munch on some grass, it comes out the same way it went in.
The whole "wolves eat stomach contents" argument does not adequately prove anything, as many reasearchers have witnessed that the contents are shaken away and discarded, and any that is consumed is simply secondary to eating the stomach itself. Also, the volume of said contents is insignificant at best.
I feed a big variety of meat (chicken, beef, deer, fish) with organ meats and an occasional egg.
No veggies at all.
Lots of people on both sides of this fence, but dogs, as demonstrated by their dental structure, are carnivores.

ahh but the link you sent me to read about this stuff mentioned grasses, fruit and veggies as an important part of there diet, just not in large amounts. I know both my monsters eat grass like there is no tomorrow and if there are any fruits on the ground from the trees they are gone.

Steve

[Diana]

Its a tough call, since none of us are nutritionists specializing in canine and feline health. I would LOVE to talk to one one day and get the inside scoop on what they actually can and can't digest. I understand their digestive tract is too short to digest cellulose, but does that also mean they cannot absorb vitamins and minerals from some vegetables (read some, obviously it will do no good feeding them celery :neutral:). I wonder also if the veggies are added simply to aid in passing the food, to a similar effect that grass aids in it. The percentage of veggies in a lot of the premade raw diets is low enough that i doubt they are doing it as filler. But it also depends on the veggies themselves, because some are good but some are not. I agree though that it would make sense to feed dogs mostly (if not all) meat- which includes bone and organ meats.

But you know, as long as you are not feeding your dog Iams or Eukanuba (isnt it the same company?) or any of that shiznit, then you are doing your dog and the food industry in general a favor. Buy a good quality kibble or raw food, check the ingredients, (and as forementioned make sure its not rendered meats or meat byproducts) and feed your dog a variety.

We should ALL be aware of where our meat comes from. Modern society is treating its food animals like crap, and ultimately everyone's health will suffer from it. Where do you like swine flu and sars and all these viruses are originating? Animal farms. Buy local, organic, free range, wild, whatever you can. I have made the choice to stop consuming factory produced animal products... and I am really trying for my dogs as well.

-Diana

[StirCrazy]

But you know, as long as you are not feeding your dog Iams or Eukanuba (isnt it the same company?) or any of that shiznit, then you are doing your dog and the food industry in general a favor. Buy a good quality kibble or raw food, check the ingredients, (and as forementioned make sure its not rendered meats or meat byproducts) and feed your dog a variety.

-Diana

thats what made me decide on the Orijen, 70%proteen, 30%fruit and veg, 0% grains. they got a white paper on there site to explain why they canme up with this formula and the benifits, and rfeasons for picking the fruit and veg that they did. actualy an interesting read.

Steve

[Funky_Fish14]

Hey,

Sorry I dont have time to read the thread, but here are some specs:

Some of the best dry foods you can feed your pets if you choose to use these, or keep them as a back-up for the raw (which is what we do):

Orijen, Acana, and Evo something(I think someone can fill that in)? Thats just what I Can remember off the top of my head but you CANNOT go wrong with them. I personally use Acana with my dog (started using it 4 years ago) and he is in amazing health.

In the last 2 years though we switched to Raw dog food (actually we prepare MOST of it at home, literally from scratch ingredients). But we do buy patties of lamb/bison/elk on occasion, and when we first started we used chicken and beef, now he gets mostly deer patties, with some bison/lamb on occasion, or else beef. We mix in items like heart, liver, and bones into the formual we grind up ourselves. The dog also needs some vegetable matter (un-cooked), this we do sometimes mix in but I like to make purees for him as an 'afternoon snack'. THey can also have yogurt(and other milk-products) and some grains, but only in small quantities. You'll be able to find a list of safe/good ingredients of all that stuff tons of places - or, buy a book on raw food. I've read a few, and they are loaded with info.

Raw food is the most natural way for your animals to aquire their nutrients - it is what their stomach will be able to process the easiest and most completely. Your dog/cat are 'domesticated', yes, but biologically, they are still wild animals. Most dry foods are processed, full of fillers and other crap as im sure you noticed. The enzymes in their digestive systems just dont deal with this stuff. Dogs/cats (moreso dogs) do need some veggie matter - ever notice your dog eating grass? berries off trees? My dog goes berry picking in the summer, and eats things like asparagus, alphafa, and grazing grasses. THey also ingest the stomach/intestinal contents of the animals they would naturally kill, = veggie matter. So it is important.

These are benefits associated with quality foods and raw, that i have also noticed in my own dog:
Switching to better quality dry foods and/or raw dog food: healthier coat, less fat/more muscle, less 'doggy' odour, happier animal (feeding time is tons of fun with raw, especially when he gets Raw Meaty Bones), lower vet bills, longer life-spans.

My dog started on Acana at 9 years old and is now 13, he smells less, has a nice coat, has tons of muscle, is still plenty active, and hes a BIG chocolate lab. The only thing is he is going deaf, but I hardly doubt that is a consequence of food-choice. The vet is very happy with him.

You may notice that many(most) people feeding raw, often have old dogs that are still in great health, and also have less medical complications. Its simply more natural, and healthier. You just have to ensure you get the right balance of ingredients, which is not too hard to do. And if you want to switch just to a better dry food, the results are similar, but again raw is best. It may be domestic, but in the end the animal is still 'wild'... its not like processed food is good for anyone anyways... its bad for people too, lol.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

Chris


PS. - Your vet is on crack... he/she is getting payed to endorse whatever food they carry. Ever notice how a vet clinic often has one specific brand of poopy 'vet-specialty' food? Also, vets lose business if you pet is healthier - sick pets = vet money. They are not like the human healthcare system. If your vet does not support REAL quality dry foods or raw, find a new vet. Many vets will be welcome to these ideas, and you'll definetly go back to a vet who is encouraging you right? They know they wont lose business for encouraging the right pet-care.

[marie]

.......

You may notice that many(most) people feeding raw, often have old dogs that are still in great health, and also have less medical complications.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

Chris




If you want to be believed then be very careful about making statements like this
.....We had a labrador that lived to be nearly 18, was fed Dog Chow all her life and never went to the vet. I also have a shih-tzu that will be 16 in march, fed kibble all her life and the only vet bills I've had other then vaccinations is for teeth cleaning

[Aquattro]

If you want to be believed then be very careful about making statements like this


I think this whole topic has to avoid "statements", as most of it is really just a pet owners preference.
Yes, many dogs that eat raw live longer, more active lives than kibble counterparts, but I'm sure there are many that don't. Diet is not the only factor in long healthy lives.
Also "stating" that veggies are important is simply an opinion. My opinion is that this isn't true, although feeding veggies probably isn't bad, so if you feel better feeding them, no harm done.
Some people insist that bones are whole, while others grind them up. To me, grinding removes one of the important benefits of bones. But again, it's purely preference.
Both sides of any portion of these issues has it's proponents and opponents.
Read all you can, talk to a variety of people that feed raw and then form your own opinion. The myths link I posted has a lot of good info, and disspells a lot of the heresay on this topic, although again, it's one websites' opinion.
Since most vets think feeding dogs raw is crazy, they are not a good source of info. As mentioned elsewhere, a lot of vets get their (minimal) training from the pet food suppliers, making it rather biased.
Canids have been eating raw for a lot of years before medi-cal was invented, and the species as a whole is doing pretty good, so there has to be something to the whole idea! :)

[Diana]

Yah they have been eating our table scraps for 10,000 years! :mrgreen:

[StirCrazy]

Also "stating" that veggies are important is simply an opinion. My opinion is that this isn't true, although feeding veggies probably isn't bad, so if you feel better feeding them, no harm done.


I get this from a page I found on the differances between dogs and cats, even goes to say dogs doi have dual purpos teeth, although not as all purpose as ours, they are designed to cut grasses and other veggies, where the cats are designed for one purpose.. to hold and tear. also they do talk about the differances in digestive track, a dog while shorter than ours is much longer than a cats which means the cat is a true meatatarian, where the dog is almost there but can digest (although not completely) veggies and such. when they grind grains and throw them in food this makes them easily digestable which is why dogs can gain weight on foods with no meat. but there will be people that say dogs are total meatatarians like cats..

there was another interesting tidbit that re-enforces this is that cats are not thirst driven as in nature they get most of there water from fresh kills, dogs on the other hand are thirst driven which they beleive is a result of them eating more than just meat.

Steve

[marie]

I groom approx. 80 dogs a month, more then a few are on raw food diets but I would be hard pressed to say which ones were if I hadn't been told ahead of time.... Any benefits are in the eye of the beholder

The one thing more then any other that contributes to a shiny, healthy coat is fresh air and exercise. No matter what diet they get, be it kibble, raw or vegetarian if a dog is stuck in the house all day/everyday, their hair gets greasy, smelly and dander builds up

[Aquattro]

Steve, as I said, if one is comfortable feeding veggies, no harm done. Maybe they get something, maybe the grass comes out stinky. For me, I choose not to feed veggies.

Marie, absolutely, there is no way you're going to recognize a raw fed dog by looking at it (maybe teeth might suggest it, but otherwise no). The value of such a diet is in the eye of the beholder, measured often as before/after comparisons. For me, I notice the difference in my dogs, therefore my choice is clear to me.
Again, it's an individual thing, and a choice each dog owner makes after researching the options.
We can compare this to our own lives. We can eat crappy processed foods, or we can eat healthy organic raw foods. Most people won't look at us and know our diet (unless our diet is LOTS of pizza), but we know how we feel from eating different diets. I feel better and can perform better eating clean wholesome unprocessed foods, and this is something I prefer to offer my dogs as well. Feeding good kibble isn't bad, or isn't going to kill them, but it's possible the dog will feel better with real food. I owe it to my dogs to pursue the optimum for them. It's just a lifestyle choice I make...

[marie]

....

Marie, absolutely, there is no way you're going to recognize a raw fed dog by looking at it (maybe teeth might suggest it, but otherwise no). The value of such a diet is in the eye of the beholder, measured often as before/after comparisons......

:lol: I am not just looking Brad, I am way more up close and personal with these dogs then their owners ever want to be. :lol:

I clean their yeasty ears, breath in the gases released from various orifices ( I won't even go into the liquids and solids that are also released) and see their teeth way closer then is sometimes comfortable....all this while the dog is on the same height as my nose

[marie]

I'm not trying to be confrontational but there is no hard proof of the benefits

[Myka]

I used to have my dog on a raw diet (meat/bone/offal only, no veggies/fruits/grains). Although she's generally a pig when it comes to food of any sort, she was very picky when it came to raw. I found I couldn't get her to eat some of the stuff needed for proper balanced raw nutrition (like bone-in chicken and fish), so I switched her to Evo. She became very gassy on Evo (both the red meat and the chicken/turkey), even after 1 year of eating it. I switched to Orijen about a year ago I think, and have never been happier. Orijen seems to be a very popular food these days. I recommend it to anyone to at least try out for 6 months.

I also daily feed plain yogurt, Tripett green tripe, and Wild Salmon oil. I have always fed my dogs twice a day, and I have been considering replacing the evening meal with raw.

Never mix kibble with raw food as they are digested at different speeds. I believe raw is digested in 4 hours, where kibble takes 8 hours.

I'm not sure if it has been posted yet or not, but here is a link for those who are interested to see how each brand of dog food rates and why: www.dogfoodanalysis.com

[Aquattro]

I'm not trying to be confrontational but there is no hard proof of the benefits

No confrontation detected :)

I agree that there is no proof, and the results are not always clear. Sometimes it's possible that raw could be worse than a good kibble. I certainly am not trying to sell it as a better way, or that may dogs are any better than someone else's dogs.
For me, my dogs are involved in sports that require strength and stamina, and I believe you only get out what you put in. For me, raw is better. It's cleaner, non processed and doesn't contain anything I don't add.

As an example, if you meet me tomorrow, you won't be able to tell if I had good food today or bad. But I'm running a 10k tomorrow morning and I sure notice what type of fuel I take in. It's the same, I believe, for my dogs.
Sure some kibble these days are great products, and probably just as good for most dogs (Orijen comes to mind). In fact, I keep some handy just in case I need to feed it, such as when we're out of town at a tournament or trial. Much more convenient. But, as a staple diet, I prefer, for myself and my dogs, food as close to real as I can get.
Again, make no mistake, I fully support a good kibble, and would recommend it for the average person, but if someone asks, as this thread did, about raw, I will speak as an avid supporter, IF it's something a person is interested in.
And to be clear, I don't use pre-made formulas, I feed raw, whole food. Example - when salmon is on sale, I buy a bunch of them, freeze them for 24hr (for possible parasites), thaw and cut in half. Each dog gets half a salmon, alternating who gets heads or tails :)
The pup isn't big enough yet for whole fish, so she gets chicken wings.

For those that can't/don't want to consider raw, have a look at Orijen, great food. Myka posted a good link too, so if you feed kibble, check out how it rates!

[Funky_Fish14]

If you want to be believed then be very careful about making statements like this
.....We had a labrador that lived to be nearly 18, was fed Dog Chow all her life and never went to the vet. I also have a shih-tzu that will be 16 in march, fed kibble all her life and the only vet bills I've had other then vaccinations is for teeth cleaning

Lol yes cause I clearly said its impossible to have dogs survive to old age and good health with kibble.... *roll eyes*

[Aquattro]

And, to add further, I certainly appreciate Marie's input, anyone looking at this should have multiple views for review.
And as others (Myka comes to mind) can attest, feeding raw is certainly a commitment and requires care and planning, from food prep, selection, cleanliness and a willingness to go to the grocery store if you forgot to thaw dinner. I have to rotate containers, keep track of dates, long term variety, dog weight, etc. It can be a fair bit of extra work over scooping a cup into the kibble bin. And perhaps for results that might not be immediately obvious (other than poop scooping!!).
and if you get to absorbed into typing about it, the dogs could end up eating butter chicken! Be right back.....doh

[Funky_Fish14]

Also - you cant tell what a human is eating just by looking at them either... that goes for ANY animal really... so what the heck is this 'you cant tell the difference from looking at them'? Other than being on a completely improper diet, most animals look about the same even on different diets... INCLUDING people. And we are no more/less developed than any other species out there... our brain is developed, we stand and have opposable thumbs... we also have back problems because we stand (which our bone structure is not specifically designed for)... So I do not see how 'appearance' is a good basis for saying raw is better or worse.

And many people do live to be 100 eating mc-donalds all their lives... but just cause thats true does not make it a good idea.

The vast majority of people feeding raw prefer it to poor kibble... I highly doubt this is any sort of placebo effect.

Cheers,

Chris

[Funky_Fish14]

Never mix kibble with raw food as they are digested at different speeds. I believe raw is digested in 4 hours, where kibble takes 8 hours.

Just to clarify, this would mean never at the same time... although you can feed say, raw in the morning, and kibble at night. Like Myka said it has to do with digestion rates... provided either is digrested before the other is ingested... there is no problem with mixing.

[Aquattro]

Just to clarify, this would mean never at the same time... although you can feed say, raw in the morning, and kibble at night. Like Myka said it has to do with digestion rates... provided either is digrested before the other is ingested... there is no problem with mixing.

Just to clarify further, after much longer threads on dog specific boards, lots of raw feeders do (or claim to) feed at the same time and report no issues.
Goes to show that the science here is a bit young :)

but better safe than sorry, I wouldn't feed raw on top of kibble..

[StirCrazy]

Just to clarify further, after much longer threads on dog specific boards, lots of raw feeders do (or claim to) feed at the same time and report no issues.
Goes to show that the science here is a bit young :)

but better safe than sorry, I wouldn't feed raw on top of kibble..

ya I was just going to say, there re several people on the GR board that feed raw/kibble mix, same dish same time and they have for years.. sooooo.. why knows.

Hey Brad you feeding the puppy raw yet?

I got new pics of Kona now.. I can't believe the difference in 1 month.. you don't notice it till you look at pictures.

Steve

[Aquattro]

I got new pics of Kona now.. I can't believe the difference in 1 month.. you don't notice it till you look at pictures.

Steve

lol, I notice it coming home from work!!

Ya, she's weaning over to raw now, although she's missing a few teeth :)

[StirCrazy]

lol, I notice it coming home from work!!

Ya, she's weaning over to raw now, although she's missing a few teeth :)

I am going to have to go get another bag of regional red soon. burnt through about 1/2 a bag in a month, but I just upped the food from 1.5 cups a day to 2.5 cups. little bugger won't stop growing :mrgreen:

Steve

[marie]

Having seen what passes through dogs digestive tracts over the years I have a hard time believing they can't handle eating raw food and kibble at the same time :lol:

Also - you cant tell what a human is eating just by looking at them either... that goes for ANY animal really... so what the heck is this 'you cant tell the difference from looking at them'? Other than being on a completely improper diet, most animals look about the same even on different diets... INCLUDING people. And we are no more/less developed than any other species out there... our brain is developed, we stand and have opposable thumbs... we also have back problems because we stand (which our bone structure is not specifically designed for)... So I do not see how 'appearance' is a good basis for saying raw is better or worse....

Cheers,

Chris

But the basis for the arguments people give for feeding raw is that a dog has a shinier coat, don't shed as much, have less allergies ect. I have not yet seen that myself.

I can't comment on dogs having more stamina and energy because I need them to stand still and therefore have no idea if its true or not

and you can tell by "looking" that some kids have been raised on mickey dee's hamburgers

[Myka]

Just to clarify further, after much longer threads on dog specific boards, lots of raw feeders do (or claim to) feed at the same time and report no issues.

It`s along the same line as humans we`re supposed to eat (preferably raw) fruit and veggies 1 hour before or 4 hours after any meats, grains, etc because of different digestion rates. However there are `no issues` there is optimal absorbency when consumed `properly`.

[StirCrazy]

But the basis for the arguments people give for feeding raw is that a dog has a shinier coat, don't shed as much, have less allergies ect. I have not yet seen that myself.

I can't comment on dogs having more stamina and energy because I need them to stand still and therefore have no idea if its true or not

and you can tell by "looking" that some kids have been raised on mickey dee's hamburgers

I can't quite agree with that being from RAW diet, people who also switch to a high quality kibble, report the same things. I think it is from moving from crap to good stuff weather it be raw or kibble.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

It`s along the same line as humans we`re supposed to eat (preferably raw) fruit and veggies 1 hour before or 4 hours after any meats, grains, etc because of different digestion rates. However there are `no issues` there is optimal absorbency when consumed `properly`.

that doesn't make since to me, sorry, but even different meats, bone, fat, ect all have different absorbency and digestion rates. I have never even seen this mentioned in anything I have read.. interesting though

Steve

[marie]

Lol yes cause I clearly said its impossible to have dogs survive to old age and good health with kibble.... *roll eyes*

No you inferred that dogs live longer on a raw food diet and I felt a need to clarify that people who choose kibble aren't necessarily consigning their pet to a premature death



And if you keep rolling your eyes like that, you'll give yourself a headache :razz:

[marie]

I can't quite agree with that being from RAW diet, people who also switch to a high quality kibble, report the same things. I think it is from moving from crap to good stuff weather it be raw or kibble.

Steve

Hehe I couldn't agree with it either.


I still have to say that the biggest factor in a healthy, shiny coat is fresh air and exercise. I can tell always which dogs belong to the elderly and the shut-ins

[StirCrazy]

Hehe I couldn't agree with it either.


I still have to say that the biggest factor in a healthy, shiny coat is fresh air and exercise. I can tell always which dogs belong to the elderly and the shut-ins

ya the clean ones :mrgreen:

[marie]

ya the clean ones :mrgreen:

There's nothing wrong with the smell of good honest dirt...and ditch slime. :lol:

[Aquattro]

The point to feeding, or not feeding raw with kibble is that it's suggested that if you feed kibble, then raw on top of it, the raw gets "backed up", allowing harmful bacteria to develop. Not so much about absorbtion rates.

[Aquattro]

I can't quite agree with that being from RAW diet, people who also switch to a high quality kibble, report the same things. I think it is from moving from crap to good stuff weather it be raw or kibble.

Steve

Steve, my observations are when switching from the high qualiy kibble to raw, so for me there is that "next level". Before I started raw though, I had people stop me at the lake to ask what I feed my dogs, because they were so much shinier than their dog. Most people would then make some comment about my kibble choice being so expensive, etc....

[Nanoized]

I considered the BARF diet, but with young kids around and potential health risks and questionable benefits I decided to buy a quality commercial dog food.

http://www.workingdogs.com/vcbarf.htm

[Myka]

Seeing as we are all self-assumed "professionals" on the subject this thread will go around in circles unless by some coincidence a canine nutritionist pops by. ;)

Steve, you can find a tonne of information if you Google "fruit on empty stomach". Of course you will find all sorts of varying information on the internet (like any other topic these days). :rolleyes: I see I did say fruits and veggies...it's just fruits. I didn't mean to put veggies there. My thoughts are not with the forums these days...

For the record, when I fed raw I used a "Prey Model + brown rice" diet, not BARF (Bones And Raw Food- raw food being small amount of fruits and veggies, but still no grains or carbs). Some people will also do BARF + brown rice, or just Prey Model. I found my dog needed some carbs to burn off (I chose cooked brown rice) or she would become too lean on the raw diet (read: very skinny).

[Aquattro]

Seeing as we are all self-assumed "professionals" on the subject this thread will go around in circles unless by some coincidence a canine nutritionist pops by. ;)



I'm looking for an online course, hopefully I can be a "pro" real soon :)

Hopefully the theme of my comments comes through, in that feeding raw is a personal choice, AFTER one has done lots of research and comes to their own conclusions. And since thoughts and opinions vary widely, one needs to accept that what they might believe today is certainly up for review tomorrow.
Everyone should do what they feel is best for their dog, and if their is any doubt, keep researching to fine tune your choice.

The differing opinions in this thread are great, it gives anyone interested lots of sides to look at.

[Funky_Fish14]

Marie, Steve's post is in fact what I meant. I just directed it toward raw since thats what this thread is about. :smile:

I can't quite agree with that being from RAW diet, people who also switch to a high quality kibble, report the same things. I think it is from moving from crap to good stuff weather it be raw or kibble.

Steve

[Funky_Fish14]

And if you keep rolling your eyes like that, you'll give yourself a headache :razz:

Lol!

[my2rotties]

My beloved rottie Diva, was never vaccinated, never ate dog food, and drank filtered water all her life. I thought she was going to live a good long time since I made darned sure I did everything right... she was dead shortly after she turned seven due to Lymphoma :cry:

I did everything the pure and "right" way... it did not matter.

No you inferred that dogs live longer on a raw food diet and I felt a need to clarify that people who choose kibble aren't necessarily consigning their pet to a premature death



And if you keep rolling your eyes like that, you'll give yourself a headache :razz:

[Crytone]

I feel that food and other choices for a pet, are the owners choice. If someone makes a suggestion you have the final say on whether or not to listen. Just try not to shoot the messenger. Remember that if you you get defensive to someone, expect that they get defensive right back.

When it comes to my own choices, I may be a bit biased since my father and sister are both veterinarians (and my dad owns several vet clinics) but I feed my cat 'vet food'. This is my choice but the fact I get it from my family (who recommend it to me) for the great price of free doesn't hurt either. My father has no qualms about what the owners decide to do with their animals and merely makes suggestions. He is, quite simply, just there to make sure your pet is healthy.

I also saw earlier in the thread someone mention about vets selling food may be a conflict of interest. This may be the case some places but when I asked my father he simply stated he'll order anything a client wants, he keeps stocked what him and his other vets recommend (or what his regular customers buy) and that his markup on food is really low (again, this is likely different in other places). So if a client decides to buy food elsewhere it's not like he's losing money. His operations are in smaller centers though so he carries it too because sometimes he's the only place in town that doesn't sell your 'purinas' and other such foods.

So make your own choice. If your pet is happy that's all that matters. There's 2 sides to a coin and you'll easily find people who say both good and bad about EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING, it's just the people saying the negative things are usually louder.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

How many of you guys "make" your own raw food diets? I just learned that a good friend of mine has done this for years now. I knew she fed raw foods but I never realized she "made" them herself, portioned it and froze it each month.

She didn't have time to get into details but said basically she does 70% lean meat, 20% vegetables and 10% organ meat. She changes the meats up often but I didn't get a chance to ask her what kind of meats she uses.

Are most of you doing it this way or buying from a store?

[Diana]

I do both.... If I had more time I would make 100% of my raw food from scratch. But alas, we buy pre-made raw medallions (lamb, venison, or rabbit) with proper percentages of ingredients. I would say the dogs get this 60% of the time. 30% of the time is high grade EVO or Orijen kibble. 10% of the time we buy ground meat (organic beef or buffalo) and I add some veggies and amino acid/enzyme oil. Keep in mind we have tiny dogs (5,9, and 15 lbs). If they were bigger I would be more inclined to give them raw meaty bones, chicken backs, or other large food to chew, and probably make big bulk portions of raw.

Some people think I am snooty for only eating organic meat and trying to feed my dogs 100% wild or organic meat.... but thats a mentality that is dooming our food industry, the lives of millions of animals, our environment, and our own health. DON'T EAT IT YOURSELF OR FEED YOUR DOGS FACTORY RAISED FOOD ANIMALS! read read read before you consume any meat products and find out exactly where they come from. it is so unbelievably important.

I won't even touch the corn and soybean industries... that is a whole other can of beans. :twised:


;)
-Diana

[Funky_Fish14]

We make the majority of our dog's raw diet (probably 90%) and use mostly wild meats or locally farmed stuff.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Ok thanks guys.

So since my puppy is only about 12 lbs and shouldn't get bigger than about 15 and I do have the time to make my own, I may go that route if we decide to feed RAW which my fiancee and I both like the idea of.

What are the best meats to feed? I know some are mentioned above. We only eat organic meats and would do the same for the dog.

Do I need to go as far as getting meats from a butcher or are there enough meats available at a regular grocery?

I know the basics of handling and I also know dogs and cats do not have problems with salmonella, e coli and other bacterias that humans do because of their shorter intestines but what about after a dog or cat has eaten raw foods and they either lick you or chew on toys that you will come in contact with? How much of a worry is stuff like this? I am by no means paranoid of this but curious.

I found an interesting link about feeding cats raw chicken, basically just warmed up in water for a bit and then chopped, bones and all. The cats in the video seemed to love it! Kind of cool to hear them crunching on the bones. I think our cats will stick to EVO but it was pretty cool to see.

Seems to me that the pet food industry has done a great job over the years to make people think you HAVE to feed their products and raw diets are unnecessary or risky when in fact I feel the opposite is probably true. They obviously have a lot to loose if people realize raw foods can be safe and healthier.

One thing I likened it to when I was trying to convince my fiancee that it was something we should try was how I feed my fish. When I started in the hobby, I feed nothing but store bought frozen and dry foods. My fish looked ok. Then I learned vitamins were a good addition and the fish looked a little better. But it wasn't until I started to make my own foods from a huge variety of fresh seafoods that the fish really looked great. Brighter, thicker, healthier, ect. Basically the RAW food diet of marine fish :razz: I would never feed large fish such as tangs anything again but chopped up fresh seafoods. I just don't have any large fish right now :neutral:

[Aquattro]

I buy chicken backs by the 40# case, which is the bulk of their diet. I then supplement with beef heart, kidney, liver and egg. When salmon are cheap, I buy whole fish for them. They get everything whole, so bones and all. Oh, and they love sardines packed in water.
For snacks, I have a freezer of venison carcass and lamb neck. For me, I buy meat at the grocery store that is marked down, we get a couple bucks off when it's got 2 days or less on the expiry date.

Some things to be cautious about; salmon must be frozen for 24 hours before feeding for risk of worms (forget the type). Pork should be frozen (deep freeze) for 30 days to kill any potential parasites (forget this type too :)).
My vet did express concerns over dogs licking kids after eating for bacterial contamination.

I wouldn't buy the premade stuff since I don't know what goes in it, and it's more than double what my cost is now. For average consumer, it might be about the same cost as store bought meat.

[my2rotties]

I switch things up quite often. I cook my dog's food though, which some people don't agree with. Mine eat our food, left overs, chicken necks and backs, liver, and whatever else I can throw into the mix. Right now, I have 200 pounds of ground turkey carcasses that my dogs refuse to eat... makes me mad but what can you do?

How many of you guys "make" your own raw food diets? I just learned that a good friend of mine has done this for years now. I knew she fed raw foods but I never realized she "made" them herself, portioned it and froze it each month.

She didn't have time to get into details but said basically she does 70% lean meat, 20% vegetables and 10% organ meat. She changes the meats up often but I didn't get a chance to ask her what kind of meats she uses.

Are most of you doing it this way or buying from a store?

[Aquattro]

Kind of cool to hear them crunching on the bones.

Once in a while I'll give my bigger girl a whole chicken, now that's something to hear!!
First time I fed whole bones was kinda gross, and makes you think what a dog could do to your fingers if it was so inclined!

[Aquattro]

makes me mad but what can you do?

ship it to other dogs :)

[my2rotties]

If you were close we could work something out. The stuff if organic and ground very fine, very little fat and looks wonderful!!! I mixed it with garlic, and sweet potatoes and cottage cheese to make it enticing for them. Then I even made gravy to put onto it for crying out loud. My dogs are the best and most perfect dogs ever, so their picky eating is their down fall for me. If I allowed it and it was good for them, they would eat bison liver every day.

I paid forty cents a pound for the turkey... just brought some up from the freezer to try with them again. Rotten buggers...

ship it to other dogs :)

[Aquattro]

If you were close we could work something out. The stuff if organic and ground very fine, very little fat and looks wonderful!!! I mixed it with garlic, and sweet potatoes and cottage cheese to make it enticing for them. Then I even made gravy to put onto it for crying out loud. My dogs are the best and most perfect dogs ever, so their picky eating is their down fall for me. If I allowed it and it was good for them, they would eat bison liver every day.

I paid forty cents a pound for the turkey... just brought some up from the freezer to try with them again. Rotten buggers...

Yup. dogs are ungrateful monsters. One of mine won't touch the venison...
I feed whole, so wouldn't use it, but I'm sure you could find someone that could feed their dogs with it.

[my2rotties]

They are so perfect in every way, I would rather deal with their picky eating instead of other things people deal with. The turkey is in the freezer and I will figure out a way to entice them to eat it. I guess I could starve them and give them no choice, but I just cant bring myself to do that to them.

I don't eat things I do not like, and don't want to be expected to eat it either...:wink:

They do have me whipped in the food department for sure.

Yup. dogs are ungrateful monsters. One of mine won't touch the venison...
I feed whole, so wouldn't use it, but I'm sure you could find someone that could feed their dogs with it.

[Aquattro]

DON'T EAT IT YOURSELF OR FEED YOUR DOGS FACTORY RAISED FOOD ANIMALS! read read read before you consume any meat products and find out exactly where they come from. it is so unbelievably important.



the problem with that is last time I went to the local market and looked at a free range organic chicken, I would have needed a bank loan! I'm not sure what prices are like that side of the water, but I can't afford to eat anything but factory cows and chickens :(

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

the problem with that is last time I went to the local market and looked at a free range organic chicken, I would have needed a bank loan! I'm not sure what prices are like that side of the water, but I can't afford to eat anything but factory cows and chickens :(

This is so true. After I said I would feed the dog organic, my fiancee reminded me how much it costs. I guess its a bit of a lie to say we ONLY eat organic meat. We try to eat only organic but at times its just too expensive. I also eat out a lot and don't pay attention if its organic or not.

I understand the reasoning behind organic meat and I agree that its something that more people should be eating BUT if prices stay as they are now, people cannot be expected to make the switch and I doubt a high percentage of people ever will. Its just one of those things where it certainly may be better but the cost just doesn't allow most people to buy it. Many families can barely afford to buy enough "regular" meat for the whole family as it is now, let alone organic.

[Diana]

I know its expensive, but humans don't need to eat meat every day. I've cut down drastically on meat intake to be able to afford organic/free range/wild meat. We eat meat maybe 3 times a week, and thats all you need if you provide yourself with other protien sources such as eggs,nuts, seeds, beans, etc etc.

I understand also that we do not have kids to feed (other than the furry ones!) so its easier for us to eat more expensive foods. But honestly, since going organic/cutting out most meat our grocery bills have not gone up. Its all about portion control. :)

A great movie to watch is called Food INC. Its not super gross so don't worry too much about that- other than maybe when they show you how they kill entire herds of pigs at once using a giant garbage press (i will never in good conscience eat pork again). It talks about making smart choices at the grocery store, and a little more about the American way of producing food that is just spiraling out of control. Animals do not need to be treated in such awful ways, and you vote 3 times a day.

:)
-Diana

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I buy chicken backs by the 40# case, which is the bulk of their diet. I then supplement with beef heart, kidney, liver and egg. When salmon are cheap, I buy whole fish for them. They get everything whole, so bones and all. Oh, and they love sardines packed in water.
For snacks, I have a freezer of venison carcass and lamb neck. For me, I buy meat at the grocery store that is marked down, we get a couple bucks off when it's got 2 days or less on the expiry date.

Some things to be cautious about; salmon must be frozen for 24 hours before feeding for risk of worms (forget the type). Pork should be frozen (deep freeze) for 30 days to kill any potential parasites (forget this type too :)).
My vet did express concerns over dogs licking kids after eating for bacterial contamination.

I wouldn't buy the premade stuff since I don't know what goes in it, and it's more than double what my cost is now. For average consumer, it might be about the same cost as store bought meat.

So I guess the concerns about contamination are not a real concern if you don't have kids?

For those of you who were feeding kibble and then switched to a RAW diet, how did you do so? Slowly or just all at once? My puppy is somewhat allergic to his current food anyways, so I was going to just basically switch over all at once for his morning feeding and keep feeding the kibble at night and then eventually just do one feeding of the RAW a day.

Any other advice? I think we have decided to make our own. Still feel a little nervous about getting it right...I think because all the sites I have read and all the advice here actually make it sound so much simpler than I thought it might be.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I know its expensive, but humans don't need to eat meat every day. I've cut down drastically on meat intake to be able to afford organic/free range/wild meat. We eat meat maybe 3 times a week, and thats all you need if you provide yourself with other protien sources such as eggs,nuts, seeds, beans, etc etc.

I understand also that we do not have kids to feed (other than the furry ones!) so its easier for us to eat more expensive foods. But honestly, since going organic/cutting out most meat our grocery bills have not gone up. Its all about portion control. :)

A great movie to watch is called Food INC. Its not super gross so don't worry too much about that- other than maybe when they show you how they kill entire herds of pigs at once using a giant garbage press (i will never in good conscience eat pork again). It talks about making smart choices at the grocery store, and a little more about the American way of producing food that is just spiraling out of control. Animals do not need to be treated in such awful ways, and you vote 3 times a day.

:)
-Diana

I hear ya and I wish organic were cheaper because I think many people would make the switch. You know how our society is though...out of sight, out of mind. Not an excuse but its tough these days to get people thinking about what meat they should choose when they are struggling to feed the family. I agree with you 100% though and I have seen some of the clips from that documentary.

I don't eat meat everyday, maybe 3-4 times a week. Never in the morning and rarely at lunch. I don't think our grocery bill has gone up a heck of a lot but we do not go to the grocery and buy a bunch of food at once, I go almost daily as its just down the street, so I do notice a difference if I buy organic meat. Again, not complaining but I know many people won't buy it whether they can afford to or not.

[Diana]

I will defrost 1-2 days worth of meat at a time and keep it in an airtight container in the fridge. I feed twice a day, both portions on the small side. When it comes time to defrost more food I use a new container. I let them clean their bowls really well and then give them a wash at least once a week.

You can switch your dog to raw right away with little to no effect (i have never seen any). Just be sure not to feed too much or they get backed up (raw food barf is pretty gross).

I still let my dogs kiss me, but not right after a meal. And keep in mind too that their poops could contain salmonella and stuff. I think if you follow proper meat handling precautions then you will be fine :)

-Diana

[Aquattro]

So I guess the concerns about contamination are not a real concern if you don't have kids?

For those of you who were feeding kibble and then switched to a RAW diet, how did you do so? Slowly or just all at once? My puppy is somewhat allergic to his current food anyways, so I was going to just basically switch over all at once for his morning feeding and keep feeding the kibble at night and then eventually just do one feeding of the RAW a day.

Any other advice? I think we have decided to make our own. Still feel a little nervous about getting it right...I think because all the sites I have read and all the advice here actually make it sound so much simpler than I thought it might be.

Well, I wouldn't let my dog lick my face immediatley after eating chicken (mostly), and common sense goes a long way. Kids are more susceptible I imagine because their faces are at licking height and perhaps they're not as tolerant to bacteria as adults.
To start out, I'd feed mostly boneless chicken for a few days, until the dog builds up higher enzyme levels. After that, you can start feeding more bone, different meats, etc. Some are richer than others, ie; venison, moose (most game).
Getting it right is pretty simple, I keep containers in the fridge that I rotate from frozen to thawed. Wash the bowls well afterwards, and if feeding large pieces that they can carry away, make sure you clean up the eating area, or the crate, wherever they eat.
I live on my own and have a large yard, so I often just hand them a chicken leg/back and let them run out in the yard with it. Bad days, they eat in their crates, and I spray it down afterwards.
More work than kibble, sure, but worth it for those of us that, well, think it's worth it :)

[Aquattro]

We eat meat maybe 3 times a week, and thats all you need if you provide yourself with other protien sources such as eggs,nuts, seeds, beans, etc etc.



Which pretty much follows my eating habits, but I still can't afford organic meat. If it was 10% more, no problem, but I've seen it 3x regular meat. That just isn't going to happen.
If prices come into a reasonable range (which is likely not possible due to volume) then I'll happily switch over.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I will defrost 1-2 days worth of meat at a time and keep it in an airtight container in the fridge. I feed twice a day, both portions on the small side. When it comes time to defrost more food I use a new container. I let them clean their bowls really well and then give them a wash at least once a week.

You can switch your dog to raw right away with little to no effect (i have never seen any). Just be sure not to feed too much or they get backed up (raw food barf is pretty gross).

I still let my dogs kiss me, but not right after a meal. And keep in mind too that their poops could contain salmonella and stuff. I think if you follow proper meat handling precautions then you will be fine :)

-Diana

This all makes sense and I think I will probably do something similar. I am a bit of a cleanliness freak at times so I will probably feed him out on the balcony where I can hose it down after and disinfect if I feel the need. I have a feeling if I give him a bone that he will drag it all over the place!

Well, I wouldn't let my dog lick my face immediatley after eating chicken (mostly), and common sense goes a long way. Kids are more susceptible I imagine because their faces are at licking height and perhaps they're not as tolerant to bacteria as adults.
To start out, I'd feed mostly boneless chicken for a few days, until the dog builds up higher enzyme levels. After that, you can start feeding more bone, different meats, etc. Some are richer than others, ie; venison, moose (most game).
Getting it right is pretty simple, I keep containers in the fridge that I rotate from frozen to thawed. Wash the bowls well afterwards, and if feeding large pieces that they can carry away, make sure you clean up the eating area, or the crate, wherever they eat.
I live on my own and have a large yard, so I often just hand them a chicken leg/back and let them run out in the yard with it. Bad days, they eat in their crates, and I spray it down afterwards.
More work than kibble, sure, but worth it for those of us that, well, think it's worth it :)

Thanks, I think I will start with boneless, small portions as you say. I will probably try it with both my dog and cats actually.

Which pretty much follows my eating habits, but I still can't afford organic meat. If it was 10% more, no problem, but I've seen it 3x regular meat. That just isn't going to happen.
If prices come into a reasonable range (which is likely not possible due to volume) then I'll happily switch over.

I have also seen organic chicken about 2-3 times the cost of regular! It really is too bad...

[Diana]

Ah, and maybe this is where there is conflict, cus I don't really eat chicken. I think maybe once in the last 3 months. We buy those PC meatless "chicken" breasts that cost $11 for 8 breasts or something like that. Chicken tends to turn me off nowadays, even if its organic.

As far as other meats, I've found beef to be a little more expensive and buffalo pretty much comparable to organic beef, if not even cheaper. We had buffalo NY striploin steaks the other night and they were DIVINE! :D Oh and $5 a steak too.

[StirCrazy]

I know its expensive, but humans don't need to eat meat every day. I've cut down drastically on meat intake to be able to afford organic/free range/wild meat. We eat meat maybe 3 times a week, and thats all you need if you provide yourself with other protien sources such as eggs,nuts, seeds, beans, etc etc.


-Diana

actualy we do.. over years we have adapted to skip meals but there are ameno acid chains in meat you can't get from nuts, seads, ect.. plus then you are eating a tone of carbs which is anoth thing we were not originaly designed to eat.. humans originated as hunter/gatherers so yes berrys and nuts were eaten in season, but meat was the primary staple of our diet. if you realy want something to think about, why is it that we in north america never realy started to get fat and overweight as an average untill the goverment released the food guid during ww2 when we were cut off from our natural cooking oil sources from overseas. they replaced cocunut oil with rape seed oil (kanola) and started pushing grains as a staple at the same time due to pressures from the agricultrual industry to boost grain sales.

there is a lot of interesting reading on things like this. one of the funnest ratings is "organic"

here are some experts in the organic rules.

"For raising animals, antibiotics would not be permitted as growth stimulants but would be permitted to counter infections. The rules permit up to 20% of animal feed to be obtained from non-organic sources."

studdies have showen there are a lot more sick animals in "organic" farms. so I think farmers are faking there animale are sick so they can use the "growth stimulants"

"Irradiation, which can reduce or eliminate certain pests, kill disease-causing bacteria, and prolong food shelf-life, would be permitted during processing. Genetic engineering would also be permissible."

"More Nutritious?
Organic foods are certainly not more nutritious [12]. The nutrient content of plants is determined primarily by heredity. Mineral content may be affected by the mineral content of the soil, but this has no significance in the overall diet. If essential nutrients are missing from the soil, the plant will not grow. If plants grow, that means the essential nutrients are present. Experiments conducted for many years have found no difference in the nutrient content of organically grown crops and those grown under standard agricultural conditions."

"Most studies conducted since the early 1970s have found that the pesticide levels in foods designated organic were similar to those that were not. In 1997, Consumer Reports purchased about a thousand pounds of tomatoes, peaches, green bell peppers, and apples in five cities and tested them for more than 300 synthetic pesticides. Traces were detected in 77% of conventional foods and 25% of organically labeled foods, but only one sample of each exceeded the federal limit.
Pesticides can locate on the surface of foods as well as beneath the surface. The amounts that washing can remove depends on their location, the amount and temperature of the rinse water, and whether detergent is used. Most people rinse their fruits and vegetables with plain water before eating them. In fact, Consumer Reports on Health has recommended this [15].Consumer Reports stated that it did not do so because the FDA tests unwashed products. The amount of pesticide removed by simple rinsing has not been scientifically studied but is probably small. Consumer Reports missed a golden opportunity to assess this."

anyways it goes on and on..

I am not bashing anyone for eating organicly, there are various reasons to but there are also reasons not to, so to each his own. I just wanted to point out that the organic system is flawed and there are a lot of loophols.. many more than I quoted. there are even things like "35% of the farmers crops have to be organic to get him the certifications. the mothers of "organic" cows don't have to be organic. and so on..

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Ah, and maybe this is where there is conflict, cus I don't really eat chicken. I think maybe once in the last 3 months. We buy those PC meatless "chicken" breasts that cost $11 for 8 breasts or something like that. Chicken tends to turn me off nowadays, even if its organic.

As far as other meats, I've found beef to be a little more expensive and buffalo pretty much comparable to organic beef, if not even cheaper. We had buffalo NY striploin steaks the other night and they were DIVINE! :D Oh and $5 a steak too.

Bison is fantastic (we don't have buffalo in north america :mrgreen:) it also happens to be one of the best meats you can eat, almost as low fat a chicken, more iron than venison, low calorie, low cholesterol, plus a host of vitimins, acids, and so on. and they are a "true" organic meat even though they are not marketed as organic usaly.

I have been buing more and more bison. only thing is you have to cook it slower over low heat or it gets dry.

[Funky_Fish14]

"More Nutritious?
Organic foods are certainly not more nutritious [12]. The nutrient content of plants is determined primarily by heredity. Mineral content may be affected by the mineral content of the soil, but this has no significance in the overall diet. If essential nutrients are missing from the soil, the plant will not grow. If plants grow, that means the essential nutrients are present. Experiments conducted for many years have found no difference in the nutrient content of organically grown crops and those grown under standard agricultural conditions."

Oh goody goodness! I've been debating this with people often! Its simple scientific fact!

Steve could you please cite the source? Not only is it usually required :razz: .... but I would love to reference it myself! Thanks! :mrgreen:

[Diana]

Haha, of course its not more nutritious, but its better for you. Sometimes I find myself saying 'organic' to replace 'free range non medicated' and stuff like that cus its just easier. I bet you anything some organic meats are still raised in factory-like settings... this is where reading the labels and doing a little research into labels comes in handy. I'm on the fence whether or not I want to eat an animal that has been treated and killed poorly, or whether it has incurred medication or GMO's. Neither is preferable.

Bison is fantastic (we don't have buffalo in north america :mrgreen:)

Dang it, i know it too, but the silly market calls it buffalo and i just can't help it :D.

And I have to disagree with you on us needing meat everyday, having studied human development extensively in my archaeology and anthropology classes. "Hunter gatherers" eat mostly on the gatherers side, not on the meat side. There are many groups of people alive today that still rely on similar subsistence strategies where meat is only eaten on the off-chance of a kill, which does not happen very frequently. Nuts supply an amazing amount of protien for most people. While subsistence remains are biased in the archaeological record due to preservation issues, the evidence shows that plant remains vastly outweigh animal remains in many many prehistoric groups. Plus you could look at our closest relatives, chimpanzees, and see that their diet is mostly vegetarian. Insects and occasional meat support the leaves, fruits and nuts.

Within the last 4000 years is where it starts to get funny. I don't think the pastoral and agriculture subsistence practices have been around long enough for us to really see any long term effects on our health as a species.

GreenSpottedPuffer is right, we are putting everything 'out of sight, out of mind'. I am fully 100% guilty of it too, almost everything in my house probably comes from China :sad:. I wish it could be different, but its not. So I will start making changes for the future. To make it better, for not just me, but for all life.

[leducreef]

i just got a red bone coonhound not to long ago she is 4 months now and i am feeding her acana puppy food right now
my Q? for all of you is cun you supplement them with raw food ?
say some dog food in the morning and some raw food for dinner

[Aquattro]

Sure, just make sure a good 8 hours has passed since the kibble, you want to make sure it's fully digested. This is from things I've read, tho, never done it myself. I think some others here have....

[StirCrazy]

Oh goody goodness! I've been debating this with people often! Its simple scientific fact!

Steve could you please cite the source? Not only is it usually required :razz: .... but I would love to reference it myself! Thanks! :mrgreen:

man, that was from about 40 sites. just type in organic food regulations.. you'll be reading for months.

Steve

[RobynR]

I called our local butcher, they make up to 200lbs of dog food base per week (which is pretty impressive for the smaller community I live in), they use ground beef mixed 50/50 with beef heart. Not exactly what I was looking for, but it's something. It was 2.49 per pound, which seemed reasonable to me, less expensive than purchasing the products individually from the IGA or SuperValu we have locally. So you may want to at least inquire at a butcher.



Do I need to go as far as getting meats from a butcher or are there enough meats available at a regular grocery?

[Aquattro]

they use ground beef mixed 50/50 with beef heart.

I would say you'd want to expand on that though, just straight beef isn't enough. You need organ meat (liver, kidney, anything weird you can find) as well as bone. I'd also add in some other meats, chicken/pork/fish, etc.

[Diana]

I read your never supposed to mix meats? unless you meat rotate them... and I also read something somewhere about pork being bad?

let me find this article


-Diana

[Diana]

Ah, found it. Its not so bad, just need to take an extra step to freeze it:

"I've heard about trichinosis and pork. Is it safe to feed pork? As with many other food items, feeding pork is purely a personal choice. But yes, it CAN be fed, safely. Some dogs do very well on pork and others don't (loose stools). If you'd like to feed pork but are afraid of possible trichinosis, it is recommended that the pork be frozen, at Zero degrees F for 3 weeks, to kill the flukes. The incidence of trichinosis is actually fairly minimal in most places now (particularly in inspected meats). Many have fed fresh pork (pork necks, being a favorite) without any ill side-effects. Be aware of smoked pork necks, as they are slightly cooked from the smoking process. Pigs feet can also be fed, but are very high in fat...something you may want to avoid if your dog needs to lose a pound or two."


From this site, its an excellent read:

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm


-Diana

[Aquattro]

Ya, I mentioned earlier about freezing pork for a month. And salmon for 24 hours

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I called our local butcher, they make up to 200lbs of dog food base per week (which is pretty impressive for the smaller community I live in), they use ground beef mixed 50/50 with beef heart. Not exactly what I was looking for, but it's something. It was 2.49 per pound, which seemed reasonable to me, less expensive than purchasing the products individually from the IGA or SuperValu we have locally. So you may want to at least inquire at a butcher.

Thanks, I am going to look into this for sure.

Last night I fed my cats some raw chicken and boy did they love it! I didn't want to overdo it but after the small amount I gave them, they were chasing me around and crying for more...crazy because my cats never beg for food!

It was easier than I thought with the cats because they are pretty clean and ate all the food in one place and also cleaned themselves well after. I doubt if I had kids that I would allow my cats to eat raw chicken in case they went and licked them after eating. For the cats though, I think this will just be a treat a few times a week to supplement the EVO they usually get.

I was surprised to see and hear how many of the bones the cats ate!

[StirCrazy]

It was 2.49 per pound, which seemed reasonable to me, less expensive than purchasing the products individually from the IGA or SuperValu we have locally. So you may want to at least inquire at a butcher.

that would make my dog eat better than I do :wink:, at about 130 bucks a month that would not be a cost effective answer. you can make it yourself and put more variaty into it and probably get down to a little over 1-1.50/ lb.

Steve

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I started my pup out tonight with 2 chicken wings, some chicken liver and fish oil. No veggies yet as I am still trying to figure out which to use and how much.

I will keep you guys posted on how it goes. I have to admit after watching how fast he eats the chicken, I am a little worried about the bones! Is there anything to worry about? Some the bones are so small and look like they could easily get stuck in his throat or puncture something.

[Diana]

Raw bones don't really splinter... but a puppy might be so excited to eat this delicious raw food that he doesn't chew it properly. Maybe giving him bigger bones would be better, that way he is forced to chew them up instead of inhaling them. :)

[Aquattro]

As Diana mentioned, raw bones don't splinter and crack into sharp edges like cooked bones do. You're probably fine with wings, but how big is the dog? My pup is about 25 pounds right now and she's eating necks and backs without problem. My big girl just ate an entire carcass (about 500 gm) in about 20 seconds, pretty sure there wasn't a lot of chewing involved :)

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

As Diana mentioned, raw bones don't splinter and crack into sharp edges like cooked bones do. You're probably fine with wings, but how big is the dog? My pup is about 25 pounds right now and she's eating necks and backs without problem. My big girl just ate an entire carcass (about 500 gm) in about 20 seconds, pretty sure there wasn't a lot of chewing involved :)

He is only about 12 lbs. He pretty much inhaled the two wings.

[my2rotties]

I just switched them cold turkey. Believe it or not, they had no issues with it at all. If my dogs get into my client's dog's food, they do get sick though.

So I guess the concerns about contamination are not a real concern if you don't have kids?

For those of you who were feeding kibble and then switched to a RAW diet, how did you do so? Slowly or just all at once? My puppy is somewhat allergic to his current food anyways, so I was going to just basically switch over all at once for his morning feeding and keep feeding the kibble at night and then eventually just do one feeding of the RAW a day.

Any other advice? I think we have decided to make our own. Still feel a little nervous about getting it right...I think because all the sites I have read and all the advice here actually make it sound so much simpler than I thought it might be.

[Aquattro]

He is only about 12 lbs. He pretty much inhaled the two wings.
I'd maybe try some thighs, they're a little bigger and might force some more chewing. The initial chewing triggers a release of enzymes which asist in digestion. When you first start with the bones, it's not uncommon (IME) to have them vomit up a piece or two until they build up enough digestive juices to really dissolve the bone.