Brodeur/Kipper/Luongo Revisited

[pelle31]

Ok so we are a little better then halfway through the season. And I remember all the Flames haters hatin on our beloved Kipper. Well here are the stats. I really shouldn't have Brodeur in here but he was talked about as well.
Stats as of tonight
Player Team GP GS W L OT SA GA GAA Sv Sv% SOG A PIM TOI
1 Martin Brodeur NJD 44 43 29 13 1 1190 92 2.14 1098 .923 6 0 2 2 2,576:33

7 Miikka Kiprusoff CGY 42 42 23 13 6 1209 89 2.15 1120 .926 3 0 0 0 2,484:05

8 Roberto Luongo VAN 40 39 23 14 2 1105 89 2.30 1016 .919 3 0 0 0 2,318:59

Looks like Kipper pulled his numbers up this year. And my,my my look whose numbers that aren't so great Luongo. Thank God Brodeur will be our Olympic starter. All in all still pretty good numbers. Its just nice to see Kipper ahead of Luongo. :)

[StirCrazy]

Kipper isn't normal this year and I don't think his stats are a fair comparason to last years.. the changes the flames made befor playoffs last year and this year make kipper look a lot better than he is. a solid defence core can make any goalie look good, and thats what happening in Cow town. most of the shots kipper faces are not that hard to stop which means the defence are doing there job.

Steve

[pelle31]

Are you a Canucks fan? This statement almost made me pee my pants " most of the shots kipper faces are not that hard to stop" I don't know if you watch any of the Flames games but its been Kipper that has kept the Flames in alot of games this year. Yea we have a pretty decent "D" but they still have their breakdowns.

[fkshiu]

Thank God Brodeur will be our Olympic starter. All in all still pretty good numbers. Its just nice to see Kipper ahead of Luongo. :)

Thank God Kipper will be the goalie when Canada plays Finland - all we have to do is lob pucks from our own side of center ice to score.

[Ian]

WELL, Kipper's number do look better this year and even for a flame hater like myself he does look better but in the end he is a goalie that has yet to winn the big ones for his team. He 1 great run in the playoffs and has done nothing in them since. This year the Kipper and the flames will only be considered a success if they raise a cup and so far they can't best Colarado so the jury is still out.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I don't think any real knowledgeable Canuck fans are going to try to argue your points because they will look at it this way...Luongo has not had a great season by his standards (until recently), meaning Kiprusoff isn't necessarily getting better but more likely Luongo slipped a little back to Kiprusoff's level. I would have to check last years numbers but I'm not really interested.

Based on your statement that Kipper has pulled his numbers up, you have checked and he is better than last year? Make sure you check the past 4 years or so though because I don't think his GAA last year was very good. I do believe his career numbers came about 2-3 years back and he has regressed since then.

I wouldn't have posted Brodeurs numbers if you are trying to make your fav goalie look good. He's untouchable.

Speaking of team Canada though, what happened to all the Flames d-men? I was under the impression from Flames fans that they were going to make up half the defensive core...I didn't see any of them on the roster.

[Ian]

rumor has it 2 of those d-men don't like each other and team Canada didn't want the Drama.....

[pelle31]

Ahhhh I knew the Canuck fans would come out of the woodwork. I suppose you have your little green lasers as well :)

"but in the end he is a goalie that has yet to winn the big ones for his team" And Luongo has done this for Vancouver? I'm not sure but I don't think he has his ring does he?

[wayner]

If it wasn't for Kipper, Flames would be dead last , as far as having a really good defense core, makes me laugh, Kippers looking at 40 shots a game on most nights and stnds on his head.

[pelle31]

If it wasn't for Kipper, Flames would be dead last , as far as having a really good defense core, makes me laugh, Kippers looking at 40 shots a game on most nights and stnds on his head.

Thank you!!

[Veng68]

Both good goalies........ but only history will tell who is better.

So far Kipper probably has an edge since he's been to a Stanley Cup Final and a has a Vezina.

Goalie World Magazine has Luongo as a better goalie over the last 5 years (using their rating system).

Being a Canucks fan........ it only matters to me that we get into the playoffs (that includes all Canadian Teams) and that Lu gives us a chance at the Cup. He's only been through to the second round twice but he's only been in the playoffs twice.

So we shall see at the end of this season who is the better goalie (at least for this year).

Cheers,
Vic

[StirCrazy]

Are you a Canucks fan? This statement almost made me pee my pants " most of the shots kipper faces are not that hard to stop" I don't know if you watch any of the Flames games but its been Kipper that has kept the Flames in alot of games this year. Yea we have a pretty decent "D" but they still have their breakdowns.

nope thing luongo is having a bad year compared to last also. My team doesn't have a starting goalie right now.

Kipper has kept the team in stopping a lot of shots that are where people who play goal concider them the easier shots to stop. doesn't mean they all get stopped but there are areas where a goalie who rather have shots taken from because the angles make it a little easier to fill up the net. not to say he hasn't made some nice clutch saves but overall his D have been doing there job well.

I have never liked kipper though so take from it what you will. he has ben getting better but he is a hot/cold goalie and used to be very inconsistant.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

If it wasn't for Kipper, Flames would be dead last , as far as having a really good defense core, makes me laugh, Kippers looking at 40 shots a game on most nights and stnds on his head.

that makes me laugh.. using shots on net is a stupid statistic, unless you can break down where thoes shots were from by percentage.

I play goalie for a old timers league and trust me, I would love to have 50 shots from the outside of the circle over 15 from in front. the biggest job of the defence is to try push the guys to the outside where statisticly it is much easier to stop the shot, and to prevent a pass preventing one timmers or tip ins on the opposit side. like I tell my guys, if the other team wants to come in on the boards and shoot from the side. they can do that all day for all I care.

Steve

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Anyone who has actually played the game will not be too interested in shot totals. I have never played goal but did play junior b which is not exactly the highest level of hockey but you still have to have good fundamentals to get there. One of those fundamentals you learn (back in bantam hockey probably) is to keep the shots to the outside and let the goalie see them. If we did this, our coach wouldn't care how many shots we allowed.

Shot totals are very misleading. Many good teams will allow 40 shots a game, take 20-25 and win most nights. I can remember way too many games where the canucks out shoot the other teams and loose.

You should be proud of your team but there is really no point in trying to make something out of nothing. No one is going to deny Kipper is a good goalie but trying to say he is as good as Luongo or Brodeur based on a few numbers is silly. Im not saying he is not as good, just saying your numbers don't mean anything.

The sport that really "gets" it is NFL football. You can have some very high QB numbers but if you never won the superbowl, you probably aren't getting into the hall of fame. I love hockey but just about any player who gets a 50 goal season in their career gets in :neutral: There is just way more to a players greatness than a GAA or SA% that cannot be put down in numbers.

[Zoaelite]

Pffft Ryan Miller with 26 Wins, 5 SO and a SVPCT of 0.936 is where its at :lol:. Eh Pelle how are those clams doing for ya?

[wayner]

If you don't think shots on goal is a worthy stat, your out to lunch - anyhow, if you seen Kipper this year , you would come to understand, or maybe not, judging by some of the comments, that Kipper is the Flames MVP game in game out -

Don't even talk to me about what level of Hockey I played and with who, I can see now by your coments you really don't know hockey at all

[StirCrazy]

If you don't think shots on goal is a worthy stat, your out to lunch - anyhow, if you seen Kipper this year , you would come to understand, or maybe not, judging by some of the comments, that Kipper is the Flames MVP game in game out -


Kipper had a good run on Oct, Nov, and the beggining of Dec.. but what has he done laitly?

Its not that is itsn't a good stat, it showes that the goalie had to be in the net that many times or the puck would have went in.

what I am saying is overall it is a weak stat, and there are breakdowns of it that are much better. look at it this way. if a team is on the penility kill for 40 min of the game and all they do is ice the puck 50 times right at the other teams net from there end, that counts as 50 shots on net.. did the goalie have to work that hard?

here is a good article on goaltending statistice and why they are no good.
it is old, but the theory and statistics are still good, even mention Cow Towns goaltending in 2003 I think.
http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Research_files/Shot_Quality.pdf

here is a quote from his 2005 data
"
Calgary:
It is widely held that Miikka Kiprusoff carried the Flames on his back. However, the Flames saw easier shots than the rest of the league, except when Dany Sabourin played goal (which was only 4 games). However, Kiprusoff exceeded predictions (.933 save percentage vs. .912 predicted) by a significant margin, thus earning the accolades."

here is 2006 data

"
Calgary:
The Flames, with a defensive style reputation, “prevented” tougher shots against (.903 shot quality). When Vezina winner Miikka Kiprusoff played, the Flames saw a shot quality of .904 and their goalie well outplayed predictions (actual save percentage of .923; 102.10 SQI). When Brian Boucher (acquired late in the year) played, the shot quality was tougher than average (.888) and he failed to stop shots at his predicted rate (96.17 SQI). Philip Sauve (dealt to Phoenix) saw average shot quality and came in below predictions. The Flames tied the Wild for the “easiest” median predicted probability of saving a shot at .940. That is, a
full half of their shots against were predicted to be stopped at the .940 rate or higher, which speaks highly of Calgary’s defense."

anyways Both Luongo and Brodure face easyer shots on a consistant basis also, which also goes to the team building process of getting a good defencive core first. with a good defence you can spen less on a goalie and end up with good results. this was Detroits way of doing businness for years. Calgary kinda did this but they also spent money on a goalie to steal the odd game the defence couldent win.

there is another study out there that goes further and breaks down the shot to where on the ice it was taken, by both distance and angle. I will see if I can find it and post it also it is an eye opener.

Due to my advancing age, I am not as quick as I used to be so I have turned into more of a statistical goal player using my size and angles to my advantage.. but I can definatly tell you that a good defencive pair makes a heck of a differance on the types of shots I face. on our 3 lines one is not very good but they try :mrgreen: and if you recorded the goals/shots I bet 60% are when that line is on the ice :wink:

Steve

[pelle31]

Pffft Ryan Miller with 26 Wins, 5 SO and a SVPCT of 0.936 is where its at :lol:. Eh Pelle how are those clams doing for ya?

Ryan Miller blows as bad as Luongo does :) Clams are doing great,thanks for asking.

[lastlight]

Bump :mrgreen:

[fkshiu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCe85jLBfXk

D'oh!

[burrows14]

ha ha ha NICE!!!

[saltcreep]

What happened last night???

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

If you don't think shots on goal is a worthy stat, your out to lunch - anyhow, if you seen Kipper this year , you would come to understand, or maybe not, judging by some of the comments, that Kipper is the Flames MVP game in game out -

Don't even talk to me about what level of Hockey I played and with who, I can see now by your coments you really don't know hockey at all

LOL...you can't just say this without explaining, negative nancy :lol:

Why not start to run your mouth with a nice list of the NHL players you played with and then explain the injury that stopped you from getting to the NHL which will of course make you better at life than all of us.

Oh wait your name is Wayner....are...are you Wayne Gretzky?!

Just because you disagree about my comments doesn't mean you have to get your panties in a bunch. They were not personal.

Please explain though. Shots are generally a useless stat because as said earlier, the stat does not break down where on the ice they were taken from. But then again, I don't know anything about hockey.

NFL football is my game anyways. I was just a pretty decent hockey player and too small to play football...but I know, you were a better player and because of that know much more than anyone else. Kind of like how Wayne Gretzky was the best player ever and that made him the best coach ever and....oh wait...:lol:

[burrows14]

I didn't have a chance to watch the flames sharks game last night. What was the final score?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

What happened last night???

Oh I think Wayner paid the Flames to allow as many shots as possible in the first few periods and paid Kipprsoff to not make any saves so that he had some proof that shot totals matter. I wouldn't worry too much about a game like that...not like it has happened more than one this year...oh it has? Yeah but last time the flames had a 6 goal lead (or something like that) and lost. That's different.

:mrgreen:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I didn't have a chance to watch the flames sharks game last night. What was the final score?

I think it was 2-1. Close game anyways. Maybe a flames fan can give you the exact score?

Kipper was the MVP of the game.

[lastlight]

I'm not *really* a fan I just like to fan these flames here =)

I was totally hoping for 'ten' last night too...if you're gonna get blown out...do it RIGHT haha.

[blaster]

I think kipper has improved this year from last,and Louie has been good since coming back from injury less than 2 goals against,but really Broduer is still the better of the three by far.I'm glad he will be the goalie for canada because he's proven himself when the pressure is on.

[wayner]

Last nights game just proves the point that when Kipper has a bad game., the Flames are a really bad team., I'd trade Iginila and his 7 million dollar salary and pick up a few really good players., better still, package him off with Phaneuf.

Shots on goal didn't play a factor in lasts night game, ya right, GreenspottedPuffer probably thought only a couple of shots were quality shots. Ya right.

[burrows14]

Trade him????lol I'm a die hard nucks fan but I have so much respect for iginla! The guy never gives up plays hard every night and fights his own battles! What more could you want from your
captain???

[wayner]

You must be watching tapes of Iginila 3 years ago, he' s done, 7 million a year can get you some really good young talent.

I think there talking with Lanny & Theo right now, could get interesting.

[Glennrf38]

You don't want to know............. yuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[burrows14]

You must be watching tapes of Iginila 3 years ago, he' s done, 7 million a year can get you some really good young talent.

I think there talking with Lanny & Theo right now, could get interesting.

Shouldn't have traded so much to get Ollie from Phoenix

[wayner]

Yeah, hated to see Camallari go, he was there only natural goal scorer and is putting the numbers up again in Mtl.

[Lance]

You must be watching tapes of Iginila 3 years ago, he' s done, 7 million a year can get you some really good young talent.


He may have slowed down a bit but is far from done: Eleventh in league in goals; Tenth on the Hockey News Power Ratings; and Team Canada thinks he's so bad they made him alternate captain. Oh, and I am not a Flames but Iginla still has my respect.

[pelle31]

Trade Iggy??? WTF for? That would look good for the team. How could you trade away your franchise player? There is some other dead weight that should be shuffled off.
Maybe try and do what SJ did too Marleau take away the "C" and see what that does.
Although it helps when you play with Thornton and then pick up Heatley to fill the line out.

[StirCrazy]

I think it was 2-1. Close game anyways. Maybe a flames fan can give you the exact score?

Kipper was the MVP of the game.

9-1, not for the flames.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Last nights game just proves the point that when Kipper has a bad game., the Flames are a really bad team., I'd trade Iginila and his 7 million dollar salary and pick up a few really good players., better still, package him off with Phaneuf.

Shots on goal didn't play a factor in lasts night game, ya right, GreenspottedPuffer probably thought only a couple of shots were quality shots. Ya right.

or maybe it also showed that the defence sucked last night also, allowing a tone of shots. I know the game I watched it didn't look like Kipper had anyone helping him out.

I am not sure on trading Iggy.. he is an idiot and I don't like him, but he is a good forward. worth 7mill.... not sure about that but probably 5mill would be a better number for him.

Look at Phaneuf's number -4 for the +/- he had a real bad night and look what that translates to. only 18 min of game time also
Regher is -3, pardy -2 and the rest -1.. not much of a defencive core showed up last night.

Steve

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

As an aside:

Did you hear what the reporter asked Burrows the other night?

"Burrows, do you know who else has scored 11 goals in seven games?"

"No, who?"

"The Calgary Flames!"

:lol:

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[StirCrazy]

If you look at the video replays of the goals

first two with in 10 feet infront of the net,
third a rebound, just off to the side
forth a rebound just to the other side
fith a shot from 5 feet out no one covering
sixth 3 or 4th rebound jab..
seventh right infront of the net no one inbetween
eight was a rebound out to a far out onetimer (kipper should have had this one but could have been a screen)
and ninth uncovered man about 7 feet infronbt of the net for a rebound.

only one of these wouldl have been concidered a semi easi shot and that was # eight. the rest are the shots goalies hate and to top it there was next to no calgary defence hindering the shooter, most of them were alone with time. I think Kipper had a good game last night but the Defence absolutly sucked the big one.

Steve

[Ian]

No way can a goalie let in 9 goals and have a good night , sure he may have been abandoned by his team but still 9 goals. Unlees it was a soccer net he should have got at least a few of those.

[24storm]

Kipper never play the whole game. Not excusing him but he only played 2 periods. He let in 6 of the goals still an awful night but it was the whole team not one player!!!!!

[burrows14]

Lol this thread is pretty fun hahaha:biggrin: Not matter what happens at least we can all say that we are not oilers fans lol

By the way has anyone heard from any? lol

[pelle31]

Lol this thread is pretty fun hahaha:biggrin: Not matter what happens at least we can all say that we are not oilers fans lol

By the way has anyone heard from any? lol


No I think they all are just gonna be very quiet for the rest of the season!!

On a side note everytime I see your username I puke a little inside my mouth!! No offense
to you personally........its just that name LMAO

[lastlight]

I have Shaq's rookie card.

[pelle31]

I have Shaq's rookie card.

Who?....... Never heard of him:) Isn't he that guy from the US cable commercials that watches TV all the time?

[burrows14]

HaHaha its all good! I would puke in my mouth if your name on her was renee borque lol

[pelle31]

HaHaha its all good! I would puke in my mouth if your name on her was renee borque lol

Ok thanks....I'll put a PM in to the mods to request a name change!!
Don't be sad that Burrows can't play as well as Bourque,maybe when he grows up
he'll be Bourque!!

[burrows14]

Ill trade you my David robinson rookie card and Robert Parrish card for it lol

I have Shaq's rookie card.

[Veng68]

Taken from the Flames Forums:

"USA 15 - Alberta 1"

Cheers,
Vic

[StirCrazy]

Lol this thread is pretty fun hahaha:biggrin: Not matter what happens at least we can all say that we are not oilers fans lol

By the way has anyone heard from any? lol

that will be enough of that... take Luongo and hendric out for the rest of the season and see how you do..:wink:

Steve

[StirCrazy]

No way can a goalie let in 9 goals and have a good night , sure he may have been abandoned by his team but still 9 goals. Unlees it was a soccer net he should have got at least a few of those.

well ya, he stopped the other 28 shots. he let in 6 of 34. got to the nhl web page and go to the box scores and watch the replays of the goals.. (I do this for all the games if I don't watch them as I have center ice) but you'll see how little help he actualy had.

I have two favorite teams.. Edmonton and anyone who plays Calgary, so I am not jumping up to defend Calgary but rather trying to point out that Kipper didn't play to bad, and if he would have had some D infront of him that was doing something besides turning over the puck, the score might have been different.

Steve