Zero Waste RO

[sphelps]

This appears to be a very simple concept to save wasted water from your RO unit. I recall looking at this before but only recently did I become interested as a result from another thread.

So they do sell retrofit kits but I figure one could easily find parts locally and make this a simple DIY project and perhaps even improve on it. So lets discuss.

Links:
https://www.wattspremier.com/products.php?product=Zero-Waste-Retrofit-Kit

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3656-watts-25-gpd-4-stage-zero-waste-ro-system-fmro4-zw.aspx?affiliateid=10050&qid=0

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10034720&search=osmosis&Mo=2&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=osmosis&Ntt=osmosis&No=2&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

[banditpowdercoat]

OK, with that first link, having an electric pump on there, Now I can see how it will work.

When the RO water is used, the pressure in the pressure sw drops, causeing the elec pump to turn on. Because the waste and inlet water are taken from the house supplys, they are both at same pressure.
The pump then increases the membrane inlet pressure higher than the waste presure. Waste is forced back through the hot water line.

BUT, because the Hot Water is acctually plumbed from the same source as the cold, the waste acctually flows backwards through the Hot water line, back towards the Hot Water Tank, and eventually out the tank's inlet, to the cold line.

I can see this system is best for a small RO system. If your like me, and make 30g+ of RO at once. Well, at a 4:1 ratio, thats 120g of waste, best case, you and I know it's more like 200g waste. Most HW tanks are what 40g? So, you would in essence be draining your hot water tank 5 times, and recirculating through your RO system.

Now, making a gallon of water here, cup there, I can see that being a great solution

[Binare]

Like Dan mentioned, this system seems great for small tanks, filling a pot or grabbin a glass of water, but for any scale beyond that... Your wasting electricity or gas to heat up hot water tank fulls of water needlessly, last time I checked gas and electricity costs more then water.

[sphelps]

OK lets think about this for a minute, do most people actually use 30 gallons a day? Yes many will make up 30 gallons or more on occasion for water changes but we don't have to. It wouldn't much harder to fill a storage container over a few days rather than all at once. Also the introduction of a booster pump makes it possible to lower the ratio of waste water. So if one could adjust their water usage to about 10 gallons a day you might only be looking at around 20-30 gallons of waste.

Personally I'd be good with a gallon a day for water changes (~7 gal/week wc) and around 5 gallons a day for top off (overkill, probably less) so I'd say 10 gal/day is above average but a a good safe number.

The other question I have is what happens at the water heater? Will water be pushed back into the cold supply or will it drain out? I'm no expert on this.

Remember the idea is also to improve on whats available so just because what is already out there doesn't really work for you doesn't mean the idea is dead or hopeless. There are other purposes to DIY than saving money.

Any ideas?

[mark]

from the non green side.

A gallon of water is worth a penny.

Technically it's 6/10 of a cents but in Edmonton you also pay for each gallon you put in the drain so combined, a penny a gallon.

[RuGlu6]

from the non green side.

A gallon of water is worth a penny.

Technically it's 6/10 of a cents but in Edmonton you also pay for each gallon you put in the drain so combined, a penny a gallon.

+1

Also from a green...er point of view,
Dilution of the toxic sewer water with RO/DI so called "waste".

The more non toxic cleaner water goes in to the sewer the less toxic the sewer water becomes to the environment.

We all know what people are flushing down the toilet right? Not so green...and environmentally friendly.

Now how about medical labs, unsold drugs, pills, washing detergents, soap.
Also think about industrial waste that is being leached, solvents, paint.
Pig/chicken etc. farming, pesticides, herbicides, insecticides...

Perhaps its ok to dilute some of that wit so called "waste" water from RO/DI.

Maybe we should ask ourselves a question: why they have a campaign to "save water" and "save Electricity"? is it because they want to save our planet or because they want to sell it down south and make a $?

Asking a question "who will benefit?", "who makes $"?
Following the money usually helps getting a bigger picture...
JMO.:smile:

[banditpowdercoat]

My thoughts exactly, RuGlu6. Especially on electricity in BC. Our power is primarily form HydroElectric dam's. Pretty green, renewable resourse if you ask me. Then why the Power Smart campaign? It does not harm our enviroment to generate electricity from water. Ohh wait, California is willing to pay 3-5x more than we pay for our power, lets conserve power, and sell to US. Then what does Cali do?? doesn't pay. But were still sending down power.




Mark, do you have meters on your homes sewer lines too in Edm?

[mark]

California is not paying it's bill? going to google that

In Edmonton there's only a water meter, but you also pay a drainage fee that's based on the amount of water coming into the house and lot size.

[banditpowdercoat]

I remember after we started sending power to Cali, they had bill, somewhere in Millions, But old Arnie said they couldn't pay. I can't remember all teh details, But I do remember Hydro being "nice" and waiving the debt. It was a while ago I remember that

[sphelps]

OK well the idea here is reuse your waste water from your RO units. To say that it's better to waste the water since it has potential to help out sewage issues is somewhat ridiculous in my mind. If this were the case, then for the same reasons we shouldn't bother to fix leaking faucets and running toilets. The average household wastes more than enough water to help with those issues already, and if a problem did exist with water treatment I don't think the solution would involve wasting more water.

Saving water is a good idea, and really this is something everyone should be interested in regardless if water is cheap or not. From a green point of view it's as simple as reducing your consumption, that's it. It doesn't involve politics and I see little relevance between the two. Yes power companies promote energy saving for other reasons than to save you money but so what? That doesn't mean you should leave the lights on 24/7, it's a simple system that both parties benefit from, you save money and the power company makes more money. Is it perfect? Absolutely not but it doesn't mean we should be wasteful.

[banditpowdercoat]

I know one of the women here, can't remember who, maybe Marie? said they run the RO waste into their washing machine. Good idea if you can do it for sure. If you have a large basement, why not get a large holding tank for the waste. Then use it for laundry? Would need a pump though. Could basically isolate the Cold Water of the washer form the house system all together.

Other's, store and use for watering garden, washing car's etc. If you got a back yard pool.. I don't have any room for any of those idea's though unfortunately.

[Binare]

Personally, I don't see my hotwater tank running needlessly to be any greener then letting the waste go down the drain. Of course diy isn't just about money... But it should have some sort of benefit no? Would I go out and fix something that isn't broken? Probably not. Would I diy just for the sole purpose of complicating something that's easy and works flawlessly to begin with? Probably not. Am I gonna diy something that will just end up costing me more money? Again... probably not.

[sphelps]

There is always room for improvement, I hardly see how a system that wastes more water than it produces is flawless.

How about a simple pressure switch and solenoid valve to control when the RO system is allowed to produce water?

A pressure switch on the hot water water line will activate a solenoid valve when hot water is being used.
The solenoid valve feeds the RO unit.
Waste water from the RO is fed into the hot water line before the water heater.

With this method waste water is only introduced when hot water is actually being used, such as laundry, dishwasher, shower, ect. This will not decrease the efficiency of the hot water heater and will not allow waste water to enter the cold supply. In addition an accumulator could be used on the waste water line which will allow some waste water to be stored before hot water is used and discharged more quickly when hot water is used.

[Binare]

Pretty sure I said WORKS flawlessly. I set a timer for 1.5hrs, turn the tap, done.

[sphelps]

Pretty sure I said WORKS flawlessly. I set a timer for 1.5hrs, turn the tap, done.
OK, so a system that wastes 4 times the amount of water than it makes WORKS flawlessly? I wouldn't use flawless to describe how such a system works.

If you're not interested in the idea I'm not sure why you would participate in the discussion.

[Binare]

Actually I drop the waste line into my washing machine, doesn't fill it up but as long as we keep the lid closed and use it in a day or two (aint hard in my household) it works out good. Perhaps you could pm me a list of topics and subjects I am allowed to post in? That would be most helpfull. When people disagree, changes are made. I'm no plumber but your suggestion of running ro only when the hot water tank has demand seems to make more sense then the original idea, so kudos to you, see what happens when people dissagree?

[BWI]

We use to sell the retro kits. If some are interested we can offer the kits again.

[Fish Head]

Im interested in zero waste or next to zero waste because it drives me to make a gallon of water i waste 4. Cant afford to drill a new well every three years. Nobody knows how long a well will last, i draw water from the tableland formation and im told that people have had these wells for years. As for diluting sewage water it doesnt matter. Once its gone its never the same. They use fresh water for fraccing oil wells and we're talking 320 m3 (320,000 L ) of water ( usually not that much) and once its used it gets disposed of in waste facilities. Its gone for good. Id like to make a gallon of water and have next to nothing for waste. My pump out runs every 2 days. Boooooo

[sphelps]

Actually I drop the waste line into my washing machine, doesn't fill it up but as long as we keep the lid closed and use it in a day or two (aint hard in my household) it works out good. Perhaps you could pm me a list of topics and subjects I am allowed to post in? That would be most helpfull. When people disagree, changes are made. I'm no plumber but your suggestion of running ro only when the hot water tank has demand seems to make more sense then the original idea, so kudos to you, see what happens when people dissagree?
You can post anywhere you want but it doesn't mean it will always be helpful or serve a purpose. Like I already mentioned a few times, the point here is to improve on a design that already exists and adapt it to better fit our needs. So far your comments have all related to the saying "if it isn't broken don't fix it" which to me seems to suggest you have little interest improving on this idea, hence my previous comment. After all your system "works flawlessly" so obviously you have no interest in improving it because if you did you would be contradicting your previous statement.

To disagree with something or just add another side is fine and benefits the process however I'm not sure that has been done because there hasn't really been any ideas put forth yet to disagree with.

The way to move forward with improvements is first done by figuring out what doesn't work or identifying the problem. As the system is currently available it won't work for, we know this already, hence the DIY approach. The next step would be to come up with new ideas on how to fix the problems or limitations and then we cycle back to the first step. If one continues to dwell on the first step and never move to the second it will never move forward. My goal here is to move forward.

[sphelps]

Im interested in zero waste or next to zero waste because it drives me to make a gallon of water i waste 4. Cant afford to drill a new well every three years. Nobody knows how long a well will last, i draw water from the tableland formation and im told that people have had these wells for years. As for diluting sewage water it doesnt matter. Once its gone its never the same. They use fresh water for fraccing oil wells and we're talking 320 m3 (320,000 L ) of water ( usually not that much) and once its used it gets disposed of in waste facilities. Its gone for good. Id like to make a gallon of water and have next to nothing for waste. My pump out runs every 2 days. Boooooo
How much RO water do you use on an daily average?

[RuGlu6]

OK well the idea here is reuse your waste water from your RO units. To say that it's better to waste the water since it has potential to help out sewage issues is somewhat ridiculous in my mind. If this were the case, then for the same reasons we shouldn't bother to fix leaking faucets and running toilets. The average household wastes more than enough water to help with those issues already, and if a problem did exist with water treatment I don't think the solution would involve wasting more water.

Saving water is a good idea, and really this is something everyone should be interested in regardless if water is cheap or not. From a green point of view it's as simple as reducing your consumption, that's it. It doesn't involve politics and I see little relevance between the two. Yes power companies promote energy saving for other reasons than to save you money but so what? That doesn't mean you should leave the lights on 24/7, it's a simple system that both parties benefit from, you save money and the power company makes more money. Is it perfect? Absolutely not but it doesn't mean we should be wasteful.

So then why exactly is it a good idea to save/conserve water?
I can see it in a desert or an area where there isn't enough, but here when it rains 27 days out of 30?
Our reservoirs cant keep it any way and it overflows to the sewer/storm

[Fish Head]

maybe 10 g. Every night when i get home. Go to put maybe 1 g into water change bucket and have next to nothing left. Boil water for youngest daughter, dog drinks alot but in a 50gpd system it shouldnt take that long for a 3g tank to fill. Booster pump runs almost non stop. Maybe i should have bought a bigger resevoir tank. or the 100gpd system but for 1000 bux it should have water whenever i need it. Im gonna call Aztek and ask some questions.

[don.ald]

So then why exactly is it a good idea to save/conserve water?
I can see it in a desert or an area where there isn't enough, but here when it rains 27 days out of 30?
Our reservoirs cant keep it any way and it overflows to the sewer/storm

yep here in the capital people conserved so much the water meter rates had to be increased...they arnt making enough money...

[sphelps]

So then why exactly is it a good idea to save/conserve water?
I can see it in a desert or an area where there isn't enough, but here when it rains 27 days out of 30?
Our reservoirs cant keep it any way and it overflows to the sewer/storm
Well we do pay for water, maybe the saving potential isn't that high but it's there. But the main purpose is to simply save water, perhaps you feel that you have an unlimited supply so you can be wasteful but I can assure you first of all this is not the case and there are many people who do not have such a supply or are looking for ways to reduce waste. Reducing water usage is not a new idea, all shower heads and toilets these days use water saving techniques, this is no different.

Water should not be regarded as an unlimited resource. The continuing growth in global temperatures and population puts a huge strain on all water supply. Even if reservoirs are full it doesn't mean the treatment plants can keep up with the demand and in most places water reservoirs are not full. It's a well known and obvious fact that water conservation practices have already started and need to be continued.

[hillegom]

maybe 10 g. Every night when i get home. Go to put maybe 1 g into water change bucket and have next to nothing left. Boil water for youngest daughter, dog drinks alot but in a 50gpd system it shouldnt take that long for a 3g tank to fill. Booster pump runs almost non stop. Maybe i should have bought a bigger resevoir tank. or the 100gpd system but for 1000 bux it should have water whenever i need it. Im gonna call Aztek and ask some questions.

I do not know what system you have. Lets say part of your system has 1 particle and then two carbon filters. How long has it been since you have changed these filters?
Turn off the water and bleed the system of pressure. Then disconnect the line to the particle filter and see how much volume you get there. Then reconnect and check how much volume you have after the two carbon filters.
I would think you will have a lot less. If so, change the filters.
After 6 months, I change out the particle filter, and after a year, I change all 3. But here in the lower mainland our water is pretty good.

[sphelps]

yep here in the capital people conserved so much the water meter rates had to be increased...they arnt making enough money...
Sure about that?? Sounds more like an additional initiative to make people conserve water as a result of them not conserving enough.

[don.ald]

Sure about that?? Sounds more like an additional initiative to make people conserve water as a result of them not conserving enough.

well, here the resivour is overflowing and the conservation is still in place.
overall, yes i agree that water should be conserved. i hate watching the waste water go down the drain from my ro unit! i actually collect it in rainbarells and use it on the garden in the summer months.

i guess my point is going green doesn't mean saving money..there is always a cost factor and that cost of going green has to be put into the equasion.

[sphelps]

well, here the resivour is overflowing and the conservation is still in place.
overall, yes i agree that water should be conserved. i hate watching the waste water go down the drain from my ro unit! i actually collect it in rainbarells and use it on the garden in the summer months.

i guess my point is going green doesn't mean saving money..there is always a cost factor and that cost of going green has to be put into the equasion.
Agreed, the main purpose of this is certainly not to save money, it's to save water but saving water usually has a side effect of saving you money but the payback period on something like this may not be realistic for everyone.

Obviously if you're already saving your waste water then a system like this should spark your interest a little, we're talking about the same thing but I'm looking for something more efficient and with less hassle. One could easily send waste water to the hot water line as a primary setup and then have an auxiliary by-pass for things like rain barrels when possible.

[mark]

Just wondering within Codes to be plumbing what is basically waste water back into the potable supply?

[sphelps]

Within Codes to be plumbing what is basically waste water back into the potable supply?
I've assumed that this kind of thing is up to code since systems are already available but I'm no expert. It would be nice if a plumber was around to offer some insight.

[banditpowdercoat]

Just wondering within Codes to be plumbing what is basically waste water back into the potable supply?

It's not that the waste water form a RO is bad, it's exactly the same water as your tap, because thats where it comes from. It's just called waste as the RO unit doesnt use it, and it is usually wasted down the drain.

You can drink the water coming form the "waste" line of your RO and you probibally wouldn't taste the difference from out of your tap

[sphelps]

Looking at some statistics this is how the average household water usage is distributed:
http://www.epcor.ca/en-ca/Customers/water-customers/efficiency-tools-tips/PublishingImages/WaterPercentCost.gif
It would be nice to supply toilets with RO waste water since contaminants would be of least concern. Perhaps one could again use an accumulator and a check valve to send RO waste to cold water supply but only in bathroom(s).
Laundry is another good use but perhaps in a lower concentration to prevent water stains. I'm not sure how much of an issue this is so perhaps people who have used waste RO water in laundry could share there experiences.

[mark]

just because something is sold doesn't mean meets code

and no RO waste is not the same as source, has at least a higher TDS

[banditpowdercoat]

Ya but pretty much the same. Not like it's bad for you, and if blended back with the source water..

[sphelps]

just because something is sold doesn't mean meets code

and no RO waste is not the same as source, has at least a higher TDS
True but more than likely it does.

Of course it's not the same but RO waste water for some people will have a lower TDS than other peoples supply. For example if someone has a supply of 100ppm and a 4-1 waste ratio the waste water should be around 125ppm which isn't that much higher and once diluted into a highly used supply it's not much of a concern but ideally the waste water should only go to supplies that don't really matter so the user isn't forced to sacrifice water quality.

[mike31154]

In the not so distant future I plan on replacing my hot water tank with a 'tankless' or 'on demand' hot water appliance. Hot water tanks themselves are not the greenest technology these days since much of the time you are storing the water and keeping it warm or hot when it's not actually being used, wasting energy in the process. I'm pretty sure the system we're talking about here won't work with tankless hot water heaters, so for me it's already a non starter. I also have concerns about sending water that has been through the prefilters, thereby dechlorinated, back into the home's plumbing. TDS might not be a problem, but by removing the chlorine you've opened yourself up to possible bacteria issues, particularly when sending this waste water into a 'warm' environment. Finally, running RO systems for short bursts (as in only when the hot water tap is opened) is pretty well known to not be the best for your system. TDS creep is an issue since it generally takes a few minutes for the numbers to get down to acceptable levels after the system is pressurized.

My current procedure is pretty unsophisticated but it works fine for me and would say it is 'effectively' zero waste. I usually run the RODI to make at least 14 gallons for my top up containers, more for water changes. I have several large plastic barrels that I collect the RODI waste water in. In the summer it goes in the garden, in the winter I haul buckets to the bathroom and use it to flush the toilets. A bit of work yes, but simple without the issues I've mentioned above. Can't really use it in the washer since I have a newer front loader and they don't use very much water. May not work for everyone due to space constraints.

[banditpowdercoat]

Won't have to worry about the chlorine aspect, because the bacteria has allready been eliminates, none in the waste water. Plus, the hot water line is chlorinated to.

[mike31154]

Won't have to worry about the chlorine aspect, because the bacteria has allready been eliminates, none in the waste water. Plus, the hot water line is chlorinated to.

Good points, make sense and I guess my concerns are unfounded in that regard. I believe there have been cases, although rare, of 'Legionaire's' disease from people keeping their hot water tanks at too low a temperature for extended periods. This would indicate that even though bacteria is eliminated at one point, there's always a possibility of it returning somehow. They can be nasty little critters.

[Binare]

My ro unit is right next to my old school washer, its a piece of crap so I drilled a hole in the top, put an airline connector in it and crazy glued my ro waste line into it. Very high tech system I got goin on. The wife don't complain about stains or anything, but there again... I don't make enough water to fill it more then halfway before a loads ready to be washed. Something else for people to consider with top loading washing machines.