PS4 Making Micro Bubbles

[rjengen]

So, I have 2 PS4's and one of them is giving me grief. In the start both were making a large amount of air bubbles, I tore them both down though and now it's only my return pump. I know it's sucking air on the suction side, cause I can hear it. I have pulled the pump apart, cleaned it right out, changed the oring seal, put it back together, replaced the suction plumbing, used the liquid teflon, and even changed the sump bulkhead out in an effort to get it to stop. As far as I can tell, I've done everything but I figured I would ask you all...and no they are not comming from the sump...I thought that myself so I tore out the bubble trap and am running socks on the main return, and the skimmer return...it actually got slightly better believe it or not...anyways...any idea's? I may just end up using this pump for my water station and buying a new one.

[Myka]

This is interesting, my PS3 just started doing this. Mine dosen't do it constantly though. Just slurps every once in awhile, but it's not sucking at from the intake in the sump. I haven't really looked at it yet, but if I find anything out I will let you know!

[abcha0s]

I have 3 Poseidon PS4 pumps and I am currently fighting a battle with micro bubbles.

1 PS4 for sump return
2 PS4s for closed loops

I do not believe this has anything to do with my skimmer. Simply put - when I turn off the skimmer, nothing changes.

I have managed to make some improvements, but have not solved the problem yet.

I have taken all of the 90 degree elbows out of my plumbing. I had to leave one 45 about 10 inches before entering the display tank.

Originally, I had not used an o-ring lubricant. I opened all of the PVC couplers and used a Silicone lube. (no comments about algae - that's just silly)

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=uv-papsil

I broke down the pump, cleaned it with vinigar and also lubed the pump o-ring.

I used an aquarium safe glue and went all around the outside of all PVC joints. I have heard that they can suck air in through micro fractures in the PVC cement but will not leak.

Tighten all couplers with a pipe wrench. Obviously not so tight that something might break.

Using my return pump as an example, the pump is now about 6 inches from the water source through a straight 1" PVC pipe. On the outflow side, it is a straight run to a 45 degree elbow and then straight into the tank. I still have micro bubbles?!

I have heard other people state that this is a design flaw with the PS4 pump and that it is impossible to stop it from caviating. I am still hopeful to find a solution

I have learned some things in researching this problem that unfortunately I can't fix.

* Always use primer when working with PVC. I didn't use it and now regret not taking the extra time.
* Use 1.5 times the diameter for any plumbing on the intake. For a PS4 with 1" intake, you really should use 1.5" plumbing. Any restriction at all can cause problems.


Any more suggestions? - Please help!

[Carmen]

You guys have me totally bummed! I had hoped that my PS4 just needed to break in...then thought I would empty the sump, clean the pump, put in some 45's to replace the 90 and hope that would fix it! But according to you...it's a whole lot of work for nothing!....:neutral:
Perhaps I should just look for a new return pump???????????

[abcha0s]

While somewhat off topic, I will add that there is a solution to the heat problem that is associated with the Poseidon pumps. It is generally accepted that each pump adds between 4 and 6 degrees F. I have 3 of these pumps, so that's a lot of extra heat in my tank. As a result, I have been evaporating a lot of water which is causing humidity issues in my house.

The trick is to take the heat away from the pump before it can transfer to the water. If you put your hand on the pump, you can feel that it runs hot. It is basically acting as an in-line heater.

The simpliest solution would be to direct a fan at the pump. For most people this would probably work well enough, but I don't like the noise and dont really have the space. I also think that there is a more effective solution.

Instead, what I am in the process of setting up is a system similar to water cooling for PCs. It basically consists of a radiator and fan to disapaite the heat. A pump to circulate the coolant, and a heat sink for each pump. All of the parts are available for PC cooling except the heat sink for the pumps.

For the heat sink, I am going to use the copper tubing used to provide water to refrigerator ice cube makers. Available at home depot. My plan is to heat the tubing so that it expands (a little) and then wrap it around the pump in a continuous loop (probably 10 times). My three pumps can then be connected in a loop and the heat can be taken out before it transfers to the water.

One final consideration - at night, I actually like the heat that these pumps generate. It basically means that I never have to run my heater. What I will do is attach the radiator fan to my Aqua Controller and use a temperature condition to turn the fan on and off based on the tank water temperature.

The best of everything - except the dam micro bubbles. If I can't solve that problem, then I won't recommend these pumps to anyone.

[rjengen]

I hate to bum you out Carmen...they really are a great pump, but mine are out of my system now. I'm going to be using one on my water change station, and my second one will be going up for sale fairly soon. I've tried everything posted on here to no avail!

[Carmen]

I hate to bum you out Carmen...they really are a great pump, but mine are out of my system now. I'm going to be using one on my water change station, and my second one will be going up for sale fairly soon. I've tried everything posted on here to no avail!

So did the microbubbles completely disappear with a new pump? What did you replace it with? And did you alter the plumbing at all when you changed it out?

[abcha0s]

I replaced my ps4 return pump with a new panworld 150ps that I have had on a shelf for the past year. This was not an easy task and required purchasing various PVC fittings so that I could swap the pumps without limiting my ability to switch them back. The result of this experiment is that I still have microbubbles coming from this line.

It occours to me that when other people have replaced their ps4 pumps and had their microbubbles disapear, it could be that they inadvertantly fixed another problem at the same time? There are generally many factors involved in any major changes to plumbing and I think it would be difficult to issolate the pump as the only variable that changed. It is also remotely possible that these owners of ps4 pumps simply had a random defect.

At the end of the day, it looks like my issue may yet be a plumbing one. The only commanality between my three ps4 pumps is that they all have ball valves plumbed on the intake side. These valves are not restricting flow but rather are simply for issolating the pumps from the tank. I have read elsewhere that some ball valves can allow air to be pulled in? While it sounds unlikely, and I did buy good quality plumbing parts, it is about the last piece of my system that I have not issolated.

I am also not convinced this has anything to do with cavitation. My return pump has only 6 inches of straight 1" PVC before going right into the pump. No bends anywhere. There should be no restriction of flow. Further, even when I valve back the pump output, I still have microbubbles. In fact, it may even get worse?

Replacing the ball valves on the pump input will be difficult if not impossible. I will have to devise an experiment to validate the theory before I go down that road. Suggestions here would be welcome.

I am determined to eventually overcome this annoyance.

Please share your thoughts.

[rjengen]

You could be onto something when it comes to the plumbing. I had an issue a couple of weeks ago, and one of my bulkheads let go on my CL, so I had the tank drained for two weeks while I waited on new parts, and the time to fix it. My poor fish has to live it out in the sump.

I took the oppertunity to redo some of my plumbing, and switch out the return pump for a quiet one 6000, and ran spa flex from the pump up. I also moved my check valve down to on top of the pump (This all but eliminated the water hammering when the return pump was shut off). I'm waiting on some fitting for my CL, but when they show up I am going to give my ps4's one last chance to prove me wrong.

As I said earlier, I did manage to get one of the pumps to work without micro bubbles no matter where it was stationed...CL, or my return. That was after I had it apart a couple of times though. I'm not sure if I'm missing something for the one that was making bubbles, or if there was some issue too small for my eyes to see. I will share the results though once I redo the CL

[Carmen]

I replaced my ps4 return pump with a new panworld 150ps that I have had on a shelf for the past year. This was not an easy task and required purchasing various PVC fittings so that I could swap the pumps without limiting my ability to switch them back. The result of this experiment is that I still have microbubbles coming from this line.

It occours to me that when other people have replaced their ps4 pumps and had their microbubbles disapear, it could be that they inadvertantly fixed another problem at the same time? There are generally many factors involved in any major changes to plumbing and I think it would be difficult to issolate the pump as the only variable that changed. It is also remotely possible that these owners of ps4 pumps simply had a random defect.

At the end of the day, it looks like my issue may yet be a plumbing one. The only commanality between my three ps4 pumps is that they all have ball valves plumbed on the intake side. These valves are not restricting flow but rather are simply for issolating the pumps from the tank. I have read elsewhere that some ball valves can allow air to be pulled in? While it sounds unlikely, and I did buy good quality plumbing parts, it is about the last piece of my system that I have not issolated.

I am also not convinced this has anything to do with cavitation. My return pump has only 6 inches of straight 1" PVC before going right into the pump. No bends anywhere. There should be no restriction of flow. Further, even when I valve back the pump output, I still have microbubbles. In fact, it may even get worse?

Replacing the ball valves on the pump input will be difficult if not impossible. I will have to devise an experiment to validate the theory before I go down that road. Suggestions here would be welcome.

I am determined to eventually overcome this annoyance.

Please share your thoughts.

Wow...that sorta sucks! I had thought about replacing the pump as well...but perhaps it is not the pump. I do not have ball valves on the input side, only on the output side. Choking back my valves does not help at all either.
I have thought about taking apart the pump, cleaning it well, and cleaning/replacing the tubing so I can see through it to determine if the bubbles are before or after the pump. Kinda a big headache to do all this though...:neutral:
Thank you so much for noting your results here!

[leducreef]

the reason you guys are geting micro bubbles is
there is prob a air leak on the intake side of the plumbing
it wont leak water when you shut the pump down so you wont see where it is i used a ton of teflon tape on my fittings and the problem was solved

[bvlester]

Teflon tape and flexable tubing is what I use on my tank. not only do you get more movablity but you don't have sharp bends in the tubing at all.

I don't use a PS4 though.

Bill