New to salt water

[Chase31]

okay so as far as i know this is the correct form to post in, if not someone correct me please.

to the point,
I just purchased a 31G tank with a fluval 205 filter, heater and such
Im not 100% new to the fish hobby i have a 10G freshwater tank so i generally know the just of that one, so anyways i have the salt in and have used a refractometer to test my salinity (its 1.022 1.023). So my second step will be to get live rock, planning on getting about 10 lbs of it, so i was wondering is that the proper amount of live rock, is the lbs per gallon really a needed amount? and is this the proper next step? im planning to cook it also.
Thanks
Chase

[toxic111]

The amount of live rock depends on your plans.. less for reef, more for fish only with live rock, or if you have a skimmer.

The rule of thumb is 1-1.5lbs per gallon. I have around 40lbs in my 33gal.

I would also get rid of the fluval & get a skimmer instead, unless you are only planning on running carbon.

A sump is a better idea if you can, I just upraded to a sump, and never will go back.

[salty210]

What are you planning to cook? I hope not the rock. 10 pounds of rock is not much,
only a few "small" pcs. Remember the rock is the filter. more you have the better off you
will be. Dump the fluval, and get a good hang on skimmer.
ROCK, SKIMMER, LIGHTING, and MONEY is all you need.
have fun.

[DCDN]

Though I'm still new to salt water I would recommend doing lots of research on it. I spent a lot of time gettinge everything I needed to get started over a couple of months, so had lots of time to learn. Theres a lot to know but I love it. Costly but worth it. My tanks just over a month now and all i have in there really is a clean up crew and i still love watching them. Have fun.

[Myka]

Hey Chase, check out this link, and the links within the text. Lots of easy-to-read information. :) http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=48393 You can also click on "My tanks" in my signature for links to some articles I have written for novice reefers.

[Chase31]

okay so i should wait on the live rock, get a skimmer first then the rock, ( i go by my paychecks, im a student part time so im working with like $300 bi weekly) i probably wont get a RO/DI till later once i get my tank going, im planning to get corals after i get fish and my rock then the lighting. so lose the biological filter media in my fluval? or just lose the fluval all together and sell it on Kijiji or something?

edit: i also dont have the money for a sump yet, as its still a small tank and pretty expencive

[Fishward]

I am by no means an expert but went through the same learning curve not too long ago. i would suggest getting about 30-40lbs of LR first, if money is an issue, you can get by without a skimmer by doing more water changes. (may eventually cost more(salt, water, and time), but less $$$ up front). Leave that for a few weeks, testing your water periodically for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. once you get them all to zero-ish, you can start putting in fish. I also suggest going to the library and getting a book on keeping salt water (i learned with Salt Water Aquariums for Dummies and i can definitely recommend it). :-)

[The Codfather]

Chase31
If you need a few ideas, stop by, you can check out my system. It's not the best, but functional. It may give you an idea or two.
Bob

[Chase31]

well i could get a skimmer and just wait longer to get the rock in there would that be a better choice? and removing the biological media b4 i put anything in the tank?
as getting live rock and a test kit will run me $400 and a skimmer will only run me $200

[Fishward]

First and foremost get rock. You nay be able to find some cheap on here but get as much as you can afford. Base rock is also much cheaper and can be 'seeded' by just a few pounds of live rock. you biological filtrAtion through LR is more important than A skimmer. Many people do SW tanks without a skimmer, I've never heard of one without LR.

[Chase31]

any suggestions on a decent skimmer, hang on i guess cuz my tank is a 31G as i said and the hood has very small limited openings.. might have to modify it?

and this is pointed towards Bob, where do you go to get supply's Aquarium illusions as it is the close's salt store to St.Albert, or are there prices high?

[MMAX]

You don't really have to get rid of your Fluval. That's all I run on my 20gal. Just don't use any of the media or foam that comes with it. Gut it and fill it with live rock rubble. I run carbon and live rock in mine and the outflow is fitted to a spray bar running the length of the tank which is more than enough flow in my system. If you do buy a skimmer stay away from any of the super skimmers by Coralife. Sure the price is tempting but you get what you pay for and you'll wake up on more than one occasion with wet floors.

[Fishward]

You don't really have to get rid of your Fluval. That's all I run on my 20gal. Just don't use any of the media or foam that comes with it. Gut it and fill it with live rock rubble. I run carbon and live rock in mine and the outflow is fitted to a spray bar running the length of the tank which is more than enough flow in my system.

pretty clever way to mimic a sump :-)

[mws]

You don't really have to get rid of your Fluval. That's all I run on my 20gal. Just don't use any of the media or foam that comes with it. Gut it and fill it with live rock rubble. I run carbon and live rock in mine and the outflow is fitted to a spray bar running the length of the tank which is more than enough flow in my system. If you do buy a skimmer stay away from any of the super skimmers by Coralife. Sure the price is tempting but you get what you pay for and you'll wake up on more than one occasion with wet floors.

Hi Mmax, can I ask you where do you place your live rock rubble? Bottom or top?
I will be running a Rena xp1 on my 40 gal. It has 2 sections in a basket.
Should I place live rock on a bottom one, then a divider, then a carbon bag.
Or all the way around?

Thanks.

[The Codfather]

PM sent- re:stores

[Myka]

Hi Chase, I would like to suggest you skip a skimmer completely. Imo, the only hang-on skimmer that's worth buying would be a Deltec, and they are very pricey. Considering the size of your tank I would suggest you go skimmerless. Softies and LPS do well without a skimmer. If you were wanting to later get into SPS then you should invest in a skimmer. Right now, if I were you I would put as much money into quality live rock as you can afford. I wouldn't cheap out on dry base rock (especially if you go skimmerless), as live rock is the best filter you can buy, and dry base rock won't function like live rock for at least a year. If you buy cheap base rock (like Caribsea Reef Rock) it will be dense, and will never become truly live rock with anaerobic bacteria in the middle of the rock. I would suggest you try to find about 25 lbs of live rock for your tank. Start with that amount, and you can use all the pieces, look for more if you prefer, or put some in your Fluval if you don't want that much. Rock varies, and so do people's ideas on aesthetics. Some people have 2lbs per gallon crammed into their tanks, and others will have 3/4lb in their tanks.

I wouldn't be too worried about a sump on your tank either. I think you will be happier if you stick to the KISS theory (Keep It Simply Silly). :)

If you click on "My tanks" in my signature and check out my 33g reef I used to have, I maintained that LPS dominant reef for quite some time skimmerless. As you can see the corals did very well. The lighting on that tank is a Hagen GLO 2x39w T5HO fixture which is a rather reasonably priced fixture at around $140 I think it was.

Keep your eyes open for used equipment, and live rock. You should be able to find "used" live rock for around $4/lb on these forums. If you go that route, try to take someone with you that has experience with reefs to check out the rock with you to make sure it is healthy and free from pests (like algae, hydroids, aiptasia, majanos, etc).

[ponokareefer]

Hi Chase, I would like to suggest you skip a skimmer completely. Imo, the only hang-on skimmer that's worth buying would be a Deltec, and they are very pricey. Considering the size of your tank I would suggest you go skimmerless. Softies and LPS do well without a skimmer. If you were wanting to later get into SPS then you should invest in a skimmer. Right now, if I were you I would put as much money into quality live rock as you can afford. I wouldn't cheap out on dry base rock (especially if you go skimmerless), as live rock is the best filter you can buy, and dry base rock won't function like live rock for at least a year. If you buy cheap base rock (like Caribsea Reef Rock) it will be dense, and will never become truly live rock with anaerobic bacteria in the middle of the rock. I would suggest you try to find about 25 lbs of live rock for your tank. Start with that amount, and you can use all the pieces, look for more if you prefer, or put some in your Fluval if you don't want that much. Rock varies, and so do people's ideas on aesthetics. Some people have 2lbs per gallon crammed into their tanks, and others will have 3/4lb in their tanks.

I wouldn't be too worried about a sump on your tank either. I think you will be happier if you stick to the KISS theory (Keep It Simply Silly). :)

If you click on "My tanks" in my signature and check out my 33g reef I used to have, I maintained that LPS dominant reef for quite some time skimmerless. As you can see the corals did very well. The lighting on that tank is a Hagen GLO 2x39w T5HO fixture which is a rather reasonably priced fixture at around $140 I think it was.

Keep your eyes open for used equipment, and live rock. You should be able to find "used" live rock for around $4/lb on these forums. If you go that route, try to take someone with you that has experience with reefs to check out the rock with you to make sure it is healthy and free from pests (like algae, hydroids, aiptasia, majanos, etc).

All very good advise that I would follow to a T. I used to run a 33 gallon as well without a skimmer, and the LPS/Softies/fish did well. Just don't come close to overstocking until you do look at going with a skimmer. And I wouldn't cook your rock.
As for salt, I was using a high end salt, but the readings weren't great, and definitely not what they were supposed to be. With all the studies out there, and since you are just getting into it, I would suggest going with a cheaper salt that has high grades with most studies, Instant Ocean. Also, most sea salt is at 1.026, so that is something you may want to consider.
As for the fluval, as others have suggested, strip it down, and run carbon in it, and it will work well for you. If this is your only source of flow in the tank, you will probably want to get something more as this isn't very much.

[Chase31]

okay well im sticking with the fluval (will gut it b4 live rock is put in) probably look around for some used live rock as its way cheaper then the $12 a lbs at aquarium illusions ill bump the salt to 1.025-1.026 (right now im using MEERSALTZ public Aquarium maintenance Formula). not sure what all my other levels are like as i haven't purchased a test kit yet (the whole grade 12 high school budget thing) the salt is just what Aquarium illusions told me to use, they were quite busy on Saturday.

[MMAX]

+1 to the skimmerless idea also. I tried a Coralife when I first started my system and it was more of a pain in the a** than anything. Threw it away and have no problems running without it.

[Myka]

I forgot to mention raising the specific gravity to 1.025-6 as well. Oops. I have never heard of that salt, and i would personally be wary of it just because it's not a well-known salt. Might as well finish off what you have though.

To save yourself some money on test kits, don't worry about getting any until you want to add LPS (or SPS) corals. Soft corals will be ok without testing the big 3 as long as you do 10-15% weekly water changes. When you do want to add corals you will need to buy calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium supplements and test kits. You could talk to littlesilvermax on the forums here about getting some "raw chemicals" to supplement. It's quite cheap that way. Those are the "big 3" test kits you will need. For calcium and alkalinity I would suggest either API (cheaper) or Elos (pricey), and for magnesium API, Salifert (mid-range), or Elos are all pretty accurate. Don't cheap out any more than API on kits though or your tests won't be accurate which kinda make them a moot point, ya know? :p

Both ammonia and nitrite are generally just used in the first few months for monitoring how the nitrogen cycle is progressing and handling the addition of new critters. Later on if there are issues in the tank. Since they aren't used often you can usually get your LFS to check for you once a week while you're starting up, and going through your cycle. Pay attention to the brand of test kits they use though. Nitrate is something I like to test for one a month or so (and when the cycle first ends), which is also something your LFS can do for you, or you can get a kit of your own (I like Salifert's nitrate kit).

If you do go skimmerless you do have to be careful to not over-stock the tank, and also make sure you're up on water changes and have good circulation in the tank so that no detritus builds up. With the Fluval you will need to clean it at least once weekly. Since canister filters are a PITA to clean, I have always preferred hang-on power filters like AquaClear just for ease of changing out filter media. I find the easier it is to perform the maintenance the more likely I am (or you) to actually do it!

[Chase31]

i know my store in st albert will test nirates but the rest i have to do myself so dont test till i get corals or fish in there? start with rock let it sit for a couple of weeks?
with my 15% changes

[Myka]

You should be testing ammonia right away. If it gets to 2 ppm I would suggest you do a 50-100% water change to lower it to prevent a toxic environment for the critters on/in the rock. Contrary to popular belief water changes will not slow down the nitrogen cycle. You will remove very little good bacteria doing a water change as these bacteria are primarily attached to surfaces, not in the free water column.

That's too bad the LFS won't test for ammonia and nitrite too. You will need an ammonia kit then (Salifert has always done me well here). To save money, skip the nitrite kit (nitrite isn't particularly toxic in the marine environment unlike freshwater). Once your ammonia reads 0 wait a week or two before adding your clean up crew just to be sure the cycle is fully complete. Test for nitrate before adding the CUC too, should be less than 10 ppm, but hopefully it will be close to 0. So for CUC, fish, and soft corals just test for ammonia and nitrate. Once you decide to add hard corals (LPS, SPS) you will need to test and supplement the big three (Ca, alk, mg) before adding those corals.

[BlueTang<3]

hey i work with your mom lol you definitely want to make sure that you have surface agitation from of the return of the filter or powerheads pointed at the surface it will help steady ph as you will release built up co2 and keep ph steadier the flowing picture was 29 gallon tank using h2ocean and tap water water change every two weeks never dosed anything no skimmer and a hang on filter with filter floss for water clarity 2 koralia 1 and 4X24 w t5 and as for cycling the tank just do reading online and remember to roll the pail of salt before using helps stir up all the elements that have settled

http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy171/bluetang3/DSCF0912.jpg

[BlueTang<3]

ha ha disregard the skimmer in the right hand side of the picture started tank with it prism pro from big als biggest pos i have ever owned unplugged after a few days use and too lazy to take it off the tank so it just sat there for decoration it made me feel better after spending 160 on it

[Myka]

BlueTang has good advice. Although I would still test the big three with those LPS in there. H2Ocean is a good salt, and the parameters seem to be fairly reliable (some people have noted low magnesium though). Buying a high quality salt like that will often dismiss the need for supplementing provided the salt isn't lacking, and regular water changes are performed. Test every new bucket before use, and supplement the freshly mixed saltwater as needed.

If you take a read through the "My tanks" link in my signature you will find an article about calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium as well as doing proper water changes (in the novice article I think). Those articles are easy reading, and have lots of basic info.

[BlueTang<3]

another thing is it a good habit to get some airline and a valve or tie a knot and drip acclimate everything

[Chase31]

yea i think im going to use a 3 gal bucket (well depending on the fish to accumulate it our LFS tests ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites, basically it tests all the stuff you need for a fresh water tank. as for the adgitation i might invest in a spray bar, im going to get a RO to help out then just do the water changes for now, buying the rock from a used source for about 4-5 a lbs will save me alot, thanks for all the advice everyone, looks like ill be well on my way to getting a CUC in the next couple of weeks :)

[Myka]

For circulation check into a powerhead or two. A single Koralia 2 or pair would probably do quite well in there to supplement the spray bar. As mentioned earlier, it will be important for you to aim a powerhead (or the spray bar) at the surface so you ripple the surface fiarly strongly. This improves water quality by reducing the greasy layer that will try to accumulate on the surface without a sump, and also helps to keep your pH up without the help of a skimmer.

[Chase31]

currently the return is very close to the top so the one side is very rippled

[Myka]

Perfect. You will probably still need a supplemental powerhead though. Try to find a used one to save a few bucks.

[fishoholic]

i know my store in st albert will test nirates but the rest i have to do myself



That's too bad the LFS won't test for ammonia and nitrite too.

Just so you know AI (aquarium illusions) will test your water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates.

[Chase31]

paradise pets does all 3 i meant other ones as in calcium and blah blah