When you get bored......

[Vancouver Reefer]

...... do you ever find yourself getting into something and then you get told off by the good lady because you have been sat at a computer for 7 hours!!!!!

I did just that and decided to CAD out my new 60 Gal rimless tank and setup im going to build. Have a look and let me know if you can see any improvements i could make.

Cube and DIY Stand:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2507/4116300198_0ae56d8d4e_o.jpg


Herbie drains and 1" SQWD return:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2656/4115531975_49c4fa467e_o.jpg


Aquarium upstairs, sump downstairs in the 'Man Cave':
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2755/4115531921_635f301649_o.jpg


Sump, Frag Tank and Salt mix reservoir:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2720/4116300090_45e0292894_o.jpg


Sump is middle return style, Skimmer on right, fuge on left:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2627/4115531833_d374e68294_o.jpg


Manifold style return:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2621/4116299956_a7d0f5ff49_o.jpg


Let me know what you think!!

VR

[lastlight]

That is looking boss already. The man cave looks like a joy to work in. my cave is under my tank and the only family members that can actually fit in are my cats!

Things I'd change:

- Add a floor. You might already have one but I don't see it in the render
- Lose the SCWD. Get the smaller unit by Oceans Motions. More reliable.

[Van-rookie]

Wow.....

[SmallFry]

...... do you ever find yourself getting into something and then you get told off by the good lady because you have been sat at a computer for 7 hours!!!!!


Daily.. :lol:

Those are some really nice drawings. I tried to do something similar using Google Sketchup for my new tank/stand. Failed miserably. Sad really - I spent 7 years programming supercomputers and I still can't drive Google Sketchup. :redface:

[Lance]

Looks great. Very functional set up.
Personally I would use gate valves instead of ball valves. I know they are more expensive but are so much easier to tweak flow rates.

[lastlight]

If it's for a herbie definitely use the gate valve. Even on my manifold I sometimes wish I used gate valves but that would have cost a fortune.

[Vancouver Reefer]

In the actual build i will be using gate valves, there just wasnt any models of the valves in the correct size and i didnt want to spend an hour drawing one!

:biggrin:

[mark]

some nice ideas but seems loosing lots of display volume with the overflow.

[Vancouver Reefer]

The actual display is a 2'x2'x'2 cube. The overflow is approx 6" deep and hides everything. I hate even seeing return pipes in an aquarium and i want this rimless to be crisp, clean and natural.

[lastlight]

Get a tinted black glass...dark as you can for the false wall. Then use sch 80 grey pipe in there and you won't see a thing and you'll have a nice glass wall wet side...easy to clean.

I did something similar on my first tank and really liked it. But I had a piece of black plexi siliconed to the wall...wet side. Thing had a bit of warp to it which was noticeable.

[Vancouver Reefer]

oooooh lastlight i like your thinking!!! Put a cover over overflow so no light will get in aswell and its super dark!!!


I like it!!!

[lastlight]

exactly. I was going to make a cover for mine actually but got lazy!

And I know you're bevelling and polishing all your glass. My sexy sense is tingling.

[Vancouver Reefer]

But of course!!!! If its rimless its got to be sexy!!!

I got my inspiration from this guy:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1288059



Oh and i forgot...Starfire glass of course!!!!

[Vancouver Reefer]

Software just blows me away with what it can do now-a-days!!!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2560/4116587664_88632188ff_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2521/4115818233_57c1e225c1_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2724/4116587718_9f040a5bd1_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2498/4115818303_794212186a_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2799/4115818333_5d86889ddb_o.jpg

Enjoy!!


VR

[Froggie]

A few suggestions that come to mind,

1) Add a valve to the pump suction piping upstream of the union. Otherwise when you pull the pump for maintenance all of the water from the center (feed) chamber and piping will drain out.

2) Move the drain line closest to the bubble trap to the right so it's beside the other drain line. You're limiting your choice of skimmers should you wish to upgrade by having to fit it between those lines.

3) Replace the 90° elbow on the pump discharge with a 45°. You've gone through the effort of putting them everywhere else. Might as well do it where it can make a difference (negligible as it may be).

4) Lower the shelf the pump is on, assuming this is to scale it looks tight. Why make maintenance even less enjoyable? Downside is the additional head loss.

5) As a general comment; I think you're going to find it a real pain to balance the flow in your manifold with that much static head. It'll be fiddly.

6) I'd look for alternatives to the SCWD. I ran one myself for a time and found significant head loss and on one occasion had it stop alternating.

7) M'thinks you may find yourself with too little flow. Especially if you're keeping SPS and the like. This is based on the elevation difference and that (assuming it's all drawn to scale) because you're using a SCWD the largest that pump discharge line can be is 1" as that's the biggest inlet size they offer.

8) The way you have your discharge line crossing your drain lines you won't be able to push your sump stand right up against the wall. Not sure if you consider having a gap behind it a pain or not.

9) Double check your sump freeboard against the volume of water that will be in the drain and discharge lines in the case of a power failure. Keep in mind that as designed the water level in the tank will drop to the invert (bottom) of the lines coming from the SCWD. (Then add a bit for safety)

10) Consider that if you want to install an automatic top off unit the float sensor needs to be mounted in the pump feed (middle) chamber.

That's all off the top of my head. I'll followup if I think of any extras...

[Vancouver Reefer]

Hi Froggie,

When i do the build i will make sure the drain lines are closer so i can use a sock if needed.

I like the idea of the valve for shutting off the centre chamber is a good i dea and one i forgot. Most of this is not to scale. it was just done as more of an idea to put down on paper as a starting point.

I will use a 45 on the pump output, i just couldnt fit in the angle after drawing all the pump etc. Lazy i know lol.

The SQWD might be changed as i hear alot of people are not liking the reliablilty of them and the head loss and flow will be looked at closely once i get to see exactly where this will be installed.

As for the freespace, that will be closely designed in as it will be a major design point on any aquarium.

The top off is already incorporated into Aquatroller

[shimmy]

Looks great. Very functional set up.
Personally I would use gate valves instead of ball valves. I know they are more expensive but are so much easier to tweak flow rates.

Im not trying to start any arguments over this, just making a comment.
Gate valves are not designed to be used as a throttling valve they are designed to be a 100% open or 100% closed, if you are looking for a valve that is designed to be throttling us a globe valve.
Now I am new to SW fish tanks but I do have a good idea of affects of flow through valves and I do know that when you use a gate valve you with wash out the seat on the valve then it becomes very difficult or impossible to get isolation.

[elitesurfer]

That looks so realistic and your journal website is too good. Props to you!!

[Froggie]

Gate valves are not designed to be used as a throttling valve they are designed to be a 100% open or 100% closed, if you are looking for a valve that is designed to be throttling us a globe valve.
Now I am new to SW fish tanks but I do have a good idea of affects of flow through valves and I do know that when you use a gate valve you with wash out the seat on the valve then it becomes very difficult or impossible to get isolation.

I'd say you're absolutely correct in your comment regarding gate valves.
I think that one of the reasons that the hobby has taken to using them for this application is that small diameter CPVC globe valves are a specialty item. They're high cost and generally unavailable (IPEX doesn't even list them on their website). The same can be said for butterflys and they've some additional real estate requirements.

In all actuality ball valves have better throttling characteristics than gates... but try fine tuning a stiff plastic quarter turn ball valve.

[shimmy]

I'd say you're absolutely correct in your comment regarding gate valves.
I think that one of the reasons that the hobby has taken to using them for this application is that small diameter CPVC globe valves are a specialty item. They're high cost and generally unavailable (IPEX doesn't even list them on their website). The same can be said for butterflys and they've some additional real estate requirements.

In all actuality ball valves have better throttling characteristics than gates... but try fine tuning a stiff plastic quarter turn ball valve.

Yes glob vales are a special item to be found but not impossible and not cheap. I just personally know that nothing can make your day feel like the worst you ever had when you cant isolate a pump because a decision that was easier at the time.
For cost I would recommend the ball valves and put the extra time in to set them just perfect.
By no means im I saying its wrong or cant be done to use gate valves to throttle, but with that said I feel little remorse for people that take the easier at the time approach to projects that should have a little more energy put into them.

[StirCrazy]

Im not trying to start any arguments over this, just making a comment.
Gate valves are not designed to be used as a throttling valve they are designed to be a 100% open or 100% closed, if you are looking for a valve that is designed to be throttling us a globe valve.


globes valves for this aplication are expensive as heck and not worth it. what we normaly get is ball valves which are horable for throttling, hence most of us use gate valves. In this aplication the gate valve works fine. If we were using a bronze gate then you are 100% corect as they tighten in there track as they close and having them 1/2 open they will chatter and destroy themselves, but the design of the normal gate valve we use is not this way and there for will not present a problem in this case and works very well for throttling.

As for ball valves they are horable and the worst valve you can use in this aplication for throttling as they have a non linear opening quality. I ended up pulling all the balls out of my system and throwing them in the garbage.


One thing I would add is I am against any valves on the return lines unless they are only for isolating for maintenance. throttling a return is just asking for trouble at some point. if you want to varry the flow between the sump and the fuge use line size to do it. if you want to varry flow through the system then throttle the pressure side of the pump.

Steve

[mark]

One thing I would add is I am against any valves on the return lines unless they are only for isolating for maintenance. throttling a return is just asking for trouble at some point. if you want to varry the flow between the sump and the fuge use line size to do it. if you want to varry flow through the system then throttle the pressure side of the pump.

Steve

See no problem valving the return on a Herbie (only) if the emergency drain is sufficently sized.

[StirCrazy]

See no problem valving the return on a Herbie (only) if the emergency drain is sufficently sized.

a herbie is different, it is the overflow not the return lines and requires adjustment to work, but it is only 1 out of the 3 lines that make up a good herbie that has a valve. what I am talking about is throttling the lines at the sump level, as in the drawing it looks like he will have a valve to restrict the flow into the fuge, and another at the sump. instead restrict the flow to the fuge by reducing the line size. so if you have a 1.5" return then after the dump into the sump reduce down to a 3/4" line if you want a lower flow to the fuge. another way is to make a spray bar in the fuge so your 1.5" line comes to a "T" say a 1.5 in 1" dual outs or 3/4 if you can find one, then get 4 to 6 more "t"s of the new line size so 1" or 3/4" pass through with a 1/2" tap and arange them across the one wall. this will give you a tone of flow through the fuge but it will be difused and even so it will be gental.

Steve

[argan]

let me know if you can see any improvements i could make.


Sump, Frag Tank and Salt mix reservoir:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2720/4116300090_45e0292894_o.jpg


Sump is middle return style, Skimmer on right, fuge on left:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2627/4115531833_d374e68294_o.jpg


Manifold style return:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2621/4116299956_a7d0f5ff49_o.jpg


Let me know what you think!!

VR


Looks like you will recirculate too much water going through your frag tank and fuge?
I would have the Drains go into the manifold and the return have a dedicated pipe to itself.
then maybe a powerhead or two in the frag and fuge if flow is a problem.

[Vancouver Reefer]

The main reason i wanted the returns to feed the fuge and frag tank is the detritus. I imagine that if i have the drains going into there, the muck will accumulate rather than being taken out by the skimmer and floss in the skimmer chamber????

I do like the idea of throttling down using smaller pipe sizes and spray bars.

[mark]

I'm feeding my fuge from one of my drains. What little detritus accumulates is easily siphoned out.

pic (http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h316/das75/?action=view&current=sump_fuge.jpg)

[lastlight]

Having a smaller tank where you know it's going to accumulate is a plus I think.

[golf nut]

Not having the dwg's to scale is a bit of a problem, those dimensions are critical to doing this properly.

[Vancouver Reefer]

Ok so a change of plan. Im going away from the SQWD idea and will be using an OM of some sort. Either build my own or buy one. So i have 2 designs to pick from for tank layout:

Option1:
Rear overflow box, im concerned about the depth of the box not being enough and getting a gurgling sound from my herbie???
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2543/4119453030_1cceff66ae_o.jpg


Option2:
Centre overflow:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2549/4119452994_918081cdff_o.jpg

Which one would you pick based on cost to manufacture, ease of maintenance and also asthetics ( My main concern!, I hate seeing equipment etc, even outside of the tank ).


Mr OM, the drawings are just for ideas and proposed layout, when i build im down to millimeters!! 5 Year engineering apprenticeship fundamentals drilled into me!!!! I cant be bothered to do a fully accurate CAD drawing for something i will be building. If it was for someone else to build, now thats a different story!!!

Any help would be much appreciated

VR

[Vancouver Reefer]

...................and you know i couldnt resist!!!!!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2760/4119492712_3f5e7cf710_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2720/4119492754_897eb3706b_o.jpg

:biggrin:

[golf nut]

If you are concerned about the herbie then do the overflow deeper, lose just 2 outlets from a 2 way at the bottom of the back of the tank, the upper 2 are doing nothing to help the flow anyway the way they are drawn, get the water to move from back to front at the bottom, fire the sump returns down the back glass, by doing this the surface water will move from front to back and get the best pre skim.

[Vancouver Reefer]

You mean like this:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2501/4120326812_040fb868dd_o.jpg

[golf nut]

Yes, but even lower so you blow across the surface of the sand and get the detritus up into the water column. your returns from the sump will point down the back and effectively the whole tank will rotate backwards.

[Vancouver Reefer]

Ok so i get about lowering the returns from the OM and getting them to blow across the sand bed, but are you also suggesting i put elbows on and blow the return water directly at the bed??? That will stir up the bed every time the flow hits it???? Or am i missing something????

[golf nut]

What is the flow from the return pump?

[Vancouver Reefer]

The flow from the return pump goes into the OM....


Like this.....

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2637/4121507318_3f95b97fcc_o.jpg

[golf nut]

The picture is perfect but this should be for a closed loop, not for a return, this will drain the tank if the power goes off.

Keep the sump/water treatment plant and return pump completely separate from your closed loop/tank flow system.

[banditpowdercoat]

If you want to put outlets low in the back, they need to be on a closed loop system. I did my tank the way Mr Om is suggesting, with 2 separate pumps. The closed loop is on the OM, with outlets near bottom of tank. Then, the sump return goes over the top of tank, and points straight down the back wall of tank. This makes a nice rolling of the water. If you were to stand on the right side of tank, and look into end of tank, water will be making a clockwise rotation in the tank. I don;t have any debris settling anywhere. 3500GPH combined flow on a 130g tank

[Ian]

OMG WHY do i keep looking at hese threads all they do is spend my money? So many ideas that I want to put into practice.
This will be an amazing set up

[Vancouver Reefer]

So where do you recommend i put the intake for the closed loop? And what size pump would you recommend for a 2' cube???

VR

[banditpowdercoat]

So where do you recommend i put the intake for the closed loop? And what size pump would you recommend for a 2' cube???

VR

Mine is on the tank bottom, I used a 3 T fitting arangement and screens on the sides of the T's Your tank may just need one T. Hidden easily behind rockwork so you cant see it :D which I like

[golf nut]

Mine is on the tank bottom, I used a 3 T fitting arangement and screens on the sides of the T's Your tank may just need one T. Hidden easily behind rockwork so you cant see it :D which I like

I agree, you can drill through the back and install a tee long leg going horizontal, install elbows on the ends of the tee pointing up to encourage the water to move in the same pattern.

[Vancouver Reefer]

OK here we go.

The returns will be constant flow from the sump, The closed loop will alternate from left to right, across the bottom of the tank. The drain for the closed loop will be just under the overflow. I dont want to place and tee in the tank as i dont want to see it. The aquascape im looking for will allow a Tee to be seen!:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2778/4125954768_704486f0d6_o.jpg

Let me know what you think!

[lastlight]

Think you nailed it. That'll direct poop perfectly.

[banditpowdercoat]

Yup, I like it.


PS what program you draw that in and how long did it take you?? I wouldnt even bother in Autocad with my 'skils' LOL

[Vancouver Reefer]

This is Google sketchup. Its free to download and there are quite a few demo videos out there. Once you get the hang of it, it works great. This design took me about 2 hours

[lastlight]

You'll of course need some true union valves in the mix to allow for cleaning of the OM and your pump.

[Vancouver Reefer]

Crap i knew i forgot something!!! lol

[banditpowdercoat]

Nice ummm, shoret's Bret LOL

[Vancouver Reefer]

Bandit,
Do you have any pics of your plumbing and returns setup??? I would like to see if you have!!

Also, do you not find that having the returns facing the sand, it creates huge holes in the sand bed from the flow???

VR

[banditpowdercoat]

My outlets are on the tank bottom, the fronts are 45, so they shoot up and back, towards rear overflow. The rears shoot fwd, and are about 7" above the sand surface. A little bit of sand blew around at first, took me a bit to get the rocks and such in there to divert/lesen the main impact zones. Also, I'm slowly switching my sugar sand out for a touch more coarser. Well, My Checkerboard wrasse is mostly doing the sand removal LOL Atleast I;m getting a good build in my sump hahaha. But there is some spots behind the rockwork that has like 0 sand. and other spots that built to like 6" depth of sand. Don;t really have any pics, and I'm out of town at work right now.

[Vancouver Reefer]

Ok so after lots of great input from many people here is what ive come up with for the final design:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2676/4130324496_141892eb11_o.jpg

The Tank:

1.5" return from sump, splits at the TEE into 1" to go into the top of the tank. 2 elbows direct the water toward the base to start the rotation of the water.

3/4" closed loop system utilising a 2 way Oceans Motion. It draws water from just under the overflow, through the OM and then directs the water acorss the sand bed from back to front to keep detritus from settling on the bed and send it up towards the overflow.

Herbie style overflow
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2537/4130324520_4714c1f355_o.jpg


The Sump:

Central return with skimmer section and fuge on either side. Drains placed side by side for more room for a skimmer and addition of a filter sock.

Return manifold feeding frag tank with expansion for future additions.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2762/4129559477_363f5b2278_o.jpg

Let me know what you think!!

VR

[banditpowdercoat]

WOW, looks cool. But I think you need a haircut. Lookin a little ragged on the sides there LOL

[StirCrazy]

looks cool, but one more input. I am not a fan of overflows with teeth, I find them loud and hard to clean. what I have been foing laitly is just having a area that is 1/2" lower than the tank walls out of plexy and rounding it over so it is smooth. I find this makes a more laminer flow which makes less noise, is more simple to keep clean, and doesn't plug up like teeth do.

Steve

[banditpowdercoat]

I too don't run teeth. I like the smooth solid flow without them.

[Vancouver Reefer]

No teeth it is!!! Smooth is the way to go!!!!

[muck]

No teeth it is!!! Smooth is the way to go!!!!

Brazilian... :mrgreen: