Coral Colours and Amino Acids

[Ron99]

Things in the 75 gallon are going so so right now. I am finding that the zoas are not doing well and slowly withering away. Also my SPS is not very colourful and browning out in some cases. I have an 8 bulb sunlight supply T5 fixture so I don't think light is an issue. Most of the bulbs are only a couple of months old. Parameters look to be in the normal range (i.e Ca, Mg, Alk all look okay, nitrates and phosphates unmeasurable etc.).

I did a bit of reading and am thinking maybe i don't have enough fish poop/amino acids in the water. Currently there are only 3 fish in the tank, a six line wrasse and a true perc/false perc pair. So maybe the bioload is to low for 75 gallons (plus 11 or so gallons in the sump) and I need to supplement the amino acid content somewhat? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[shrimpchips]

If your corals are brown, chances are that there's an overabundance of nutrients right now as opposed to a dearth of them.

Have you tried a different test kit?

Also do you have a skimmer attached to the system? Any media reactors?

[Ron99]

Yep, running a Coralife 65 skimmer which pulls a cupful of nasty dark green/black skimate every 5 to 7 days and a phosban reactor. Also growing cheato in the sump. Tried two different test kits. I don't have an abundance of nuisance algae growing so I don't think it's high nitrates/phosphates. From what I was reading corals need a certain amount of nitrogen in the form of amino acids excreted in fish poop and this is a different form then the nitrates etc. you get from breakdown of uneaten food etc.

[Ron99]

I also forgot to mention that the SPS is all growing and noticeably encrusting over plugs an rock so its not like they are dying or appear to be suffering in growth, just dull and brown.

[hockey nut]

I use amino acids and would say it makes a difference. I find it helps with growth and colour. It will take some time but you should see a difference.

[bigblack]

Hi ron, don't add aminos if corals are brown, they will just make them more brown. You need to give us some more info about your system before anybody can really help, i.e lighting duration, how stable are your parameters, salinity etc most importantly how stable is your alk as that is key for sps. Flow thru the tank? How long has the tank been up, how long have the corals been in there? What test kits are you using to detect p and n, even the really good ones dont' do the best at measuring in the lows.

from what you've written about the coralife pulling out that much junk i would assume that nutruients are most likely the issue, so just take your time, feed a little less and let your system clean up, the best advice i can give you is make changes one at a time so that you can identify the problem.

[lorenz0]

I only have 5 fish in my 60 gal (slightly shorter than the 75) and haven't had a crazy issue with color. out of curiousity, what is your bulb choice?

[Ron99]

Tank has been running since last May, was set up with established and cycled rock from other tanks so there was no cycle to speak of. Lighting runs 10.5 hours each day. Some corals have been in there since last may much of the others have been in 5 or 6 months. Salinity is stable as I run an ATO. Other parameters seem a fairly stable as well although I don't check every day. But they are similar when I do test. Flow is about 300gph through the sump and I have an MP40 running about 2/3 full power which gives plenty of water movement. Test kits are a mix of Elos and API. I have also tried some hagen test kits too for phosphate and ammonia/nitrate/nitrite. But all read zero or very close to it when I test so I don't think I have a major nutrient issue as I can't see getting false negatives all the time. I'm also not seeing any algae blooms; just the normal dusting on the glass that needs to be cleaned every few days.

I didn't think a cup of skimate per week was that much. I see others pulling that much in a few days.

As for bulbs I have 3 x actinics, 1 x fiji purple, 2 x 75.25 and 2 x 12,00K actinic white. Lorenzo, what kind of fish are the 5 you have? Some eat and poop more then others. I have 3 fairly small fish in a large tank so that is why I am thinking low biolad as a possible issue. I was reading these:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-02/rs/feature/index.php

http://glassbox-design.com/2008/amino-acids-do-they-work/

[fishytime]

It could be your bulb choice....if the actinic bulbs you are running are a "true" or "pure" actinic then four out of your eight bulb spread are "color" bulbs...meaning they dont produce as much usable par as 10000-18000k bulbs...

as far as dosing amino acids goes...I am all for it....everything in the tank seemed to perk up when I started dosing it...

[JDigital]

as far as dosing amino acids goes...i am all for it....everything in the tank seemed to perk up when i started dosing it...


+1

[lorenz0]

It could be your bulb choice....if the actinic bulbs you are running are a "true" or "pure" actinic then four out of your eight bulb spread are "color" bulbs...meaning they dont produce as much usable par as 10000-18000k bulbs...



beat me to it. I agree with your bulb choices. i don't dose anything and my colors are still really good. Double check what type of actinics they are and if they are "pure" i would remove most to all of them. As for the fiji purple, take it out. Every combo i have run has always produced better color without the fiji in it.

I suggest aquascience bulbs to anyone. These preform on the same level as ati and give off great color. the KZ line is good as well but UVL and GE aren't fans in my books for SPS.

It sounds like your reef is stable, good flow but i just have a feeling it has something to do with your lighting.

btw, I used to only have 2 fish in my sps tank. If your worried about food for your sps dose some coral food.

[Ron99]

Well, even so I have 216 watts of 12,000K to 18,000K light about 4 to 4.5 inches from the surface of the water and the sps are all close to the top of the tank too so some are only 8 inches or less away from the lights. I don't believe it's a lighting issue. There should be plenty of PAR in the top third of my tank. I had to move some chalice and cyphastrea frags under some overhangs on the sand bed because they were getting to much light out in the open on the bottom.

I think I will try feeding the corals a bit more often. It's fairly sporadic right now. How often do you SPS masters feed and what is preferred? I have some coral frenzy and some micro-vert.

[simplycoral]

Tank has been running since last May, was set up with established and cycled rock from other tanks so there was no cycle to speak of. Lighting runs 10.5 hours each day. Some corals have been in there since last may much of the others have been in 5 or 6 months. Salinity is stable as I run an ATO. Other parameters seem a fairly stable as well although I don't check every day. But they are similar when I do test. Flow is about 300gph through the sump and I have an MP40 running about 2/3 full power which gives plenty of water movement. Test kits are a mix of Elos and API. I have also tried some hagen test kits too for phosphate and ammonia/nitrate/nitrite. But all read zero or very close to it when I test so I don't think I have a major nutrient issue as I can't see getting false negatives all the time. I'm also not seeing any algae blooms; just the normal dusting on the glass that needs to be cleaned every few days.

I didn't think a cup of skimate per week was that much. I see others pulling that much in a few days.

How old was the rock? There could be a lot of nutrients bound up in the rockwork which is now being released? I don't believe any of the test kits any more :neutral: most are unable to accurately read low levels and the problem with nutrients is they are often absorbed by the corals and other elements very quickly... Your SPS & Cheato are feeding on the nutrients.

I fill my Skimmer cup every other day with a dark skimate.

Simon

[simplycoral]

Well, even so I have 216 watts of 12,000K to 18,000K light about 4 to 4.5 inches from the surface of the water and the sps are all close to the top of the tank too so some are only 8 inches or less away from the lights. I don't believe it's a lighting issue. There should be plenty of PAR in the top third of my tank. I had to move some chalice and cyphastrea frags under some overhangs on the sand bed because they were getting to much light out in the open on the bottom.

I think I will try feeding the corals a bit more often. It's fairly sporadic right now. How often do you SPS masters feed and what is preferred? I have some coral frenzy and some micro-vert.

I personally would deal with the nutrient issue first before feeding anymore :neutral:..

[lorenz0]

any chance you can take a picture?

[buddyreefer]

don't want to sound rude, but i think you need to the advice given to you on this thread, feeding your corals more when they are brown is not going to give you the results you need, brown corals are usually a symptom of too high nutrients and sometimes not enough light, your test kits will not give you accurate readings because p04 gets locked up in things like algae giving false 0's. Coralife skimmer are imo not great skimmers, you might look at getting a more effecient skimmer and go from there.

[Ron99]

I'll try to get some pictures which will help as it is not just that they are all turning brown. Some have turned a bit brown, others have never coloured up and stayed a bit brown as they were when I got them and others are just faded (my red mille is more a peach/pale pink colour then the more intense red it was originally). Some have coloured up at the tips but the rest has stayed brown.

While I certainly want advice and opinions I am also trying to make sense of what is being said. I seriously doubt it is a low light issue with an 8 x 54 watt T5 fixture. High nutrients could be a cause but I'm not sure it fits with the overall picture. Zoas tend to like higher nutrient tanks but they are not doing particularly well either. Excessively high nutrients would show up with the test kits. The reason the test kits are seen to be inaccurate at low levels is because our eyes cannot pick out the very slight colour changes at the low levels, not to mention variations in the colour temperature and intensity of the ambient light people are testing under. You would need a sensitive colourimeter for real accurate results. The kits are fairly accurate but our eyes are not. So my levels are testing at zero or near enough I can't see a colour change. I do not have any algae blooms only cheato growing in my sump. If the cheato is sucking up nutrients such that they are immeasurable then the levels in the water are low. It is possible the coral are also sucking up some of the nutrients too and that is partly responsible for the lack of colour but I'm not feeding a ton with only 3 small fish. I tend to put the food in a little at a time with a pipette and only add a bit more when they have eaten what's floating around. The two cleaner shrimp, snails and hermit crabs hurry to snatch up what's left and the serpent star is out scavenging at night.

Sure the coralife skimmer isn't the best but it was a freebie as part of a package deal with other equipment and it is skimming a nice dark skimmate so it is taking stuff out of the water. A new skimmer isn't in the budget right now.

I do suspect my Alk may have been a bit unstable so I am keeping an eye on that right now. That may also have been the source of or contributed to the problem. But my reading does indicate that corals can fade and go brown from lack of feeding too as it looks like they need something like 20% of their nitrogen in the form of protein/amino acids. That's why I'm asking about feeding regimens for corals that work for others as I rarely feed anything for them.

[kien]

I don't feed my SPS corals anything other than Alk. and Calc. and they seem to be doing fine.

[shrimpchips]

Do you have stray current in the tank?

[StirCrazy]

Hi Ron, sayin g water peramiters are normal tells us nothing, can you list them for me? also Browing of SPS is an increase in symbiotic algae which usaly means the lighting is low so the coral needs more lighting. as you increase you light the coral will expell algae and get more color.

how deep is the tank and how far are the sps from the surface?

I don't agree with the "corals need fish poop" thing as I had a very low fish load tank (3 in a 90) and a nutrent starved system with extream skimming and my colors were increadable, but every tank has slight differances.

Steve

[Reefer Rob]

From what you've posted it doesn't look to be either a lighting, or nutrient issue. 8 T5 bulbs are a ton of light over a 75 no matter what the bulb combination, you could grow SPS at the top of your tank with half that many bulbs.

If your test results are showing 0 for nitrates and phosphates, and you have no nuisance algae, likely high nutrients aren't the issue. Also if you're pulling out skimmate you likely have enough nutrient to grow corals.

Probably it's something you haven't posted yet.

What is your water change regimen? (did I miss this)
Any corals in your tank known for chemical warfare? (leathers?)

Are you corals brown or more of a faded tan color? Brown is caused by high nutrients/low light. Corals tend to go tan and loose color when they are stressed, such as by contaminates in the water, unstable parameters, etc.

One thing I've thought of is the possibility of chemicals being excreted, or trace elements being used up by a large mass of macro-algae in a small system.

Just my $0.02 Rob

[kien]

I think you also have to accept that some corals just simply shock easily from having been established and was used to one system (aquarium), and then all of a sudden being shoved into a new one. It can take them a very very long time to regain their former glory. Some may never achieve this and some will colour morph into something different. It is not necessarily a matter of bad parameters, but rather different parameters and conditions from what they previous were used to. Take your red coral turning pinkish for example. It is virtually impossible to reproduce ALL the parameters and conditions of their previous tank. Some corals can adapt quickly and easily, some (or perhaps most) do not.

I have a coral right now that was once red, then browned a little, now has coloured up with half of it being blue!

my 2 cents.

K.

[Ron99]

I'm actually intrigued by the stray voltage idea. I did a quick test using my multimeter and it looks like I have 0.6 to 0.7 volts running through the tank. I tried the same test with my pico and read 0 volts. The zoas I moved from the 75 gallon to the pico perked up very quickly. So would 0.7 volts be enough to cause a problem?

Its pretty much just the sps and zoas suffering. The LPS and other soft corals seem to be doing well. The maze brain has about doubled in size in the last few 4 or 5 months. The pulsing xenia are growing and pulsing. Chalices are growing slowly, cyphastrea is growing. So the puzzlement is in what could be causing problems for zoas and SPS but not so much for the other inverts and fish.

It does seem to be more that the corals are losing colour and going tan rather then dark brown. Water changes are about 9 to 10 gallons every week to 10 days. I do have two small leathers so I don't know if that could also be a problem in the larger tank. If so they could go. I'll try to post pictures and dig up my last test results later on.

[Marlin65]

I do suspect my Alk may have been a bit unstable so I am keeping an eye on that right now. That may also have been the source of or contributed to the problem.

I think this might be part of your problem. I just had a problem with the alk in one of my tanks and all my corals turned brown. They are coming back but it is taking some time.
I do think your fish load could be a problem. When I was running my other tank with fish I had great color then when I transfered just my fish over to my other tank my corals slowly faded in color they did not turn brown but the color faded out over a few weeks. I was not feeding at all at that time as there were no fish.

[Reefer Rob]

I did a quick test using my multimeter and it looks like I have 0.6 to 0.7 volts running through the tank.

It would be cool if it was that simple! I'm curios to know where the voltage leak is.

[Ron99]

Looks like 0.4 to 0.5 volts from the heater and maybe 0.2 volts from my return pump. The pump could be putting out some inductive voltage due to the proximity of the motor to water. The heater is obviously leaking current somewhere. Looks like I'm picking up a new heater tomorrow and maybe a grounding probe for the sump too.

As for test results, on Nov 8th I had this:

pH 8.4
PO4, NH4, NO3, NO2 all zero
KH 7

[Ron99]

Here's some pics of the corals. This first one was brown when i received it. it has since turned a lighter brown with a touch of purple on the tips but that is as good as it has become.
http://hotimg23.fotki.com/a/70_70/254_23/Coral1.jpg

This one used to be a nice right green but has since become more of a duller yellowy green.
http://hotimg23.fotki.com/a/70_70/254_23/Coral2.jpg

This frag is about twice as big as when i received it. The tips have turned a bit pink but the rest has stayed beige.
http://hotimg23.fotki.com/a/70_70/254_23/Coral3.jpg

here is the previously red mill that is now more peach coloured.
http://hotimg25.fotki.com/a/70_70/254_23/Coral4.jpg

A previously nice green slimer with blue tips that is now going completely brown.
http://hotimg23.fotki.com/a/70_70/254_23/Coral5.jpg

This frag has grown somewhat from when I received it but colour has not changed at all in the last 5 or 6 months. The tips are a nice green but the rest is brown.
http://hotimg25.fotki.com/a/70_70/254_23/Coral6.jpg

This one has just faded from where it was white with blue tips. The blue is much more faded now.
http://hotimg23.fotki.com/a/70_70/254_23/Coral7.jpg

Another thing to note is polyp extension has not been as good as it used to be either.

So I hope the stray voltage is the answer. Will see how things do once I address that.

[Marlin65]

Pics look like what I am going through. i still think its your Alk I can post some of my pictures but they are the same as yours more or less.
7 is a bit low for Alk I am trying to bring mine up from that as well but my PH is at 8.5 so trying to bump it slowly.

[Marlin65]

FWIW my parameters
PH 8.5
Alk 7.6
Mag 1350
Ca 420
Strontium 6-12 Hard to read
PO4 0
No3 0.2
My LPS and clams are looking great its just my SPS and they are coming back slowly after the Alk drop.

[bowkry]

I went through the same thing I never could get the realy nice colors so I switched over toa full zeovit system and in 6 weeks my tank has chaned so so so much.Every one of my corals got color to them that I didn't even now they had. Imo amino acids without full zeovit gave me a huge alge bloom.

[Ron99]

Well, after some more time and trying to keep ALK more stable I am fairly certain it was a voltage leak issue. After a bit of reading at RC I figured less than one volt shouldn't be a problem as many people seemed to have several volts with no ill effects. While my multimeter only showed less than one volt I don't think it was reading correctly. The other day I put my hand in the tank with a cut on my finger and felt a strong buzz in the cut. So there was obviously more voltage then I read. So a new heater and a ground probe later no more buzzing in the cut and some positive signs in the corals. The zoas seem to be opening a bit more where before they were melting and the sps that was in serious decline is now showing a bit of PE for the first time in weeks.

So it looks like voltage was the problem. Something to think about for those having issues with no other obvious water quality issues etc.

[hillegom]

Ron99 did you build your own probe? If so what metal did you use for the probe?
Thanks

[fkshiu]

Ron, anytime you dip a cut finger in SALTwater you'll feel a buzz voltage or not ;)

Have you tried unplugging each electrical device one by one with the multimeter in the tank to see if you get any variance?

FWIW I run the gamut of ZEO additives (incl. AA and LPS AA) except for the actual main ZEO system (go figure) and found that less is more - i.e. you need very little; anything approaching the max dosages on the bottles leads to an algae bloom.

[Ron99]

I did unplug items and found the buzz in my cut went away when I unplugged the heater and came back when I plugged it back in. It wasn't just a product of putting it in the water but was obviously electrically related. I've been shocked before and it felt similar to that or to putting a 9 volt battery on your tongue. The voltage showing on the meter did change with unplugging things but the magnitude on the meter was obviously less than reality. I doubt I would have felt less than a volt in my cut but this was quite noticeable. The proof is in the pudding as the corals started to look a bit better within hours; i.e zoas opening more and some PE starting in the SPS that had none before and were in fact bleaching and dying.

As for the probe, no I just bought the $13 titanium one at J&L. I probably could have built one for a few dollars less than that but this was easier; buy it and plug it in.

[Ron99]

Things are doing much better now. Consistent PE on the SPS which is starting to show some colour again. Zoas are opening up and seem happy. The other softies and LPS look fuller and are open almost all the time and my pulsing xenia has started growing like a weed again. Sadly I did loose a couple zoa colonies and frags of SPS in the process and the jury is still out on one or two others that still don't look great.

So definitely worth checking for voltage leaks if you are having issues that don't have another obvious cause. Probably doesn't hurt to have a ground probe as well.

[freezetyle]

I don't feed my SPS corals anything other than Alk. and Calc. and they seem to be doing fine.

I know this is a little off topic, but i don't understand how a small current in the water would inhibit the growth of the corals. I mean with the Conservationists using things like biorocks (http://www.biorock.net) to speed the growth of coral production.

To the OP, like its been previously stated maybe your corals were still adapting to your system. If there wasn't very much PE until recently that may have been a sign that they were still under some stress. I would probably just keep on top of your calcium and Alk. for a little bit before adding a bunch of things that may or may not help out your situation

[Ron99]

I know this is a little off topic, but i don't understand how a small current in the water would inhibit the growth of the corals. I mean with the Conservationists using things like biorocks (http://www.biorock.net) to speed the growth of coral production.

To the OP, like its been previously stated maybe your corals were still adapting to your system. If there wasn't very much PE until recently that may have been a sign that they were still under some stress. I would probably just keep on top of your calcium and Alk. for a little bit before adding a bunch of things that may or may not help out your situation

No, the corals were doing well and growing and then things went downhill with no obvious cause. I suspect it was more then a small current to actually feel it that way when I put my finger in the tank. I also suffered a couple of fish losses during that period so it is likely the electricity was stressing them out and making them susceptible to infections or something.

The coral reef restoration you mention is based on very small currents and voltages generated by chemical reactions of different metals in seawater; sort of like a very weak battery. You would likely not feel that level of electricity which is far lower then what can be generated by a voltage leak in your tank's equipment. In this case it had to be close to or more then 9 volts with significant current. As I mentioned before, the turnaround was noticeable within hours of fixing the voltage leak as the SPS started to show some PE that day after several weeks of no PE and fading and then bleaching etc.

[Reefer Rob]

Good to hear things have turned around for you, and thanks for posting the results.