"What if"

[Oceanic]

I would like to continue this thread (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=463651#post463651) as I personally use baking soda as well as DOW flake (driveway melt) with no issues what so ever. I have also used Epsom Salts from Walmart for Magnesium.

I am sure there are many others here that use readily available hardware or grocery store chemicals and or buy their chemicals in bulk either from ChemMaster or Bulk reef supply. The costs associated with this hobby can be high. I see nothing wrong with people finding cheaper ways to be successful, I don't think everything has to have a fancy label in a small package to be considered safe!

I also know people that are very successful with dosing Vodka. I don't think people should be scared into thinking they will crash their tank if they use anything other than aquarium specific products.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[kien]

Ya.. all that thread did was confuse me! First it talked about reef salts vs diy salts then talks about baking soda then other chemicals, hehe. I guess I'm just not smart like that. I didn't know people made their own salts. Anway..

I use baking soda (from the supermarket) and do not have any nuisance algae issues. Maybe because my baking soda doesn't look like poo ? Parameters are at the correct levels and everything is thriving :noidea:

Also buy my calcium and mag bulk from the chem dude. Gets the job done and works great.

[Oceanic]

Ya.. all that thread did was confuse me! First it talked about reef salts vs diy salts then talks about baking soda then other chemicals, hehe. I guess I'm just not smart like that. I didn't know people made their own salts. Anway..

I use baking soda (from the supermarket) and do not have any nuisance algae issues. Maybe because my baking soda doesn't look like poo ? Parameters are at the correct levels and everything is thriving :noidea:

This is the problem, it should not be confusing. Continue what you are doing if you are successful! Don't let threads like this scare you into thinking you need commercially marketed chemicals to adjust simple water perimeters.

The definition "salts" means the chemicals added to the aquarium, baking soda is one of the additives being labeled as such.

[imisky]

i too have used baking soda for adjusting alk, epson salt for mg but never found any dow flake locally to try it with ca, and i too havent encountered any issues with using the chemicals.

i can see the arguments presented in that thread and to a certain degree it makes sense, but the idea originated from somewhere, whether it was people looking for a local source of calcium or alk or vodka for example it originated from products which wasnt made for sw tank use.

and IF the commercialization of vodka aka carbon dosing never happened we would all still be dosing vodka and if used correctly it would not cause any issues (makes you wonder why vodka companies dont just slap a lable on the vodka bottles with additional information for incase used for fishtank) and the same imo applies to other parts of the industry.

if a method some random hobbist came out with that was not successful in doing what we want to achieve, it'll be pretty unlikely to see it become a commercial product. i dont know but those are my thoughts

[lastlight]

That thread came off as the sort of scare-tactics news you see on FOX or something. While I found it amusing I thought it was pretty silly it was closed by the author after 2 people posted.

[Myka]

I use commerically prepared calcium and alkalinity buffer, but I do use Littlesilvermax's 8.5:1 magnesium mix.

I wouldn't use plain magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) permanently on my tank. I would only use it in an emergency or if I was using it against Bryopsis where the sulfate is needed. Magnesium chloride should make up the bulk of the magnesium dosing.

I have always found that commercially prepared chemicals work better in my reefs than bulk chemicals. I can't explain why. I notice no difference using a magnesium mix though. I also can't explain why. I know I don't get. :lol:

I know there have been discussions on various boards in the last while regarding ionic imbalance from dosing too many products/chemicals with chloride in them which increases chloride too much in our tanks. Of course our test kits and refractometers don't know the difference so we think our dosing or salinity levels are correct. There are vendors coming out now with chloride-free salts.

Also, fyi these days when people say "salts" they may be referring to balling salts. Magnesium chloride, calcium chloride, sodium (bi)carbonate are all salts. So be sure you understand whether the person is referring to a salt mix or balling salts.

That thread came off as the sort of scare-tactics news you see on FOX or something. While I found it amusing I thought it was pretty silly it was closed by the author after 2 people posted.

Agreed.

[StirCrazy]

there are valid points both ways, but I didn't like the article Aqua Digital wrote as it was scare tactics. RHF has done testing on several chemicals we can find in department stores, some are good for frequent use, some for occasional and some for emergency's. as for Vodka dosing I personally think it is stupid and alcohol abuse should go in the belly not the tank:mrgreen:

I do like the custom products for there purity and convenience for setting up a custom blend, but the prices are outrageous on a lot of them. One thing you do have to watch out for is products containing sulfates, using them to much will build up the sulfate level in your tank which isn't good. there have been several studies over the years on the build up of heavy metals, sulfates ect and the problem comes from a lot of the "department" store products we try use are not 100% pure so in the short term they don't hurt, but in the long term depending on what ones you are using and how much you may get build up of undesirable chemicals.

so I go both ways on this debate, I feel the manufactures of these products could easily drop there price in 1/2 and then the merchants and so on which would still get them a profit and make them much more affordable resulting in more people using them and probably more profit made through volume sales, but until then people will continue to look for lower cost alternatives.

Myself, I am the king of cheapness when it comes to stuff like this, I even did experiments using dolomite as a DSB and would have used it but it compacted into a rock hard bed so it was not suitable, but I do like the convenience and preciseness of the balling system, and there are also somethings I don't cheep out on anymore and it they are related to water chemistry and light then I spend the extra. now I don't mean that I will run out and buy the most expensive lighting fixture thinking I have the best set up, what I mean is I do my research and make sure I am getting exactly what I am looking for. If it doesn't meet up to my demands I will build my own.

Steve

[shrimpchips]

I'll chime in since I use the Fauna Marin salts and the whole balling system.

I thought about using DIY salts, but the purity issues had me stay away from them. In a small system, if I do encounter any impurities, they can quickly build up an become very detrimental. Also, I too like the fact that they are pure, easy to use and I have some ease of mind knowing they're from a quality company and brand.

As for DIY, I strongly considered it, but the first thing that got me was the impurities that might be present in DIY salts. Also, you have to make a lot larger batch of balling salts with DIY since they are a lot less pure than the brand-name salts. Space is a premium to me, and I don't want to have to make a batch every few weeks.

For me the decision also came down to the fact that I had already spent hundreds, if not thousands on corals - I wasn't about to save $50 and possibly put things in harms way. For me, I just don't trust something made for the sidewalk and driveway for my SPS reef tank, which I've already invested heavily in.

As for the price of these chemicals, pure chemicals are expensive, and driveway quality melting salts aren't exactly pure. In the end I think it comes down to how comfortable you are with the unknowns associated with icemelting salts, and how much extra you're willing to shell out for the brand-name salts.

[fkshiu]

For me, I just don't trust something made for the sidewalk and driveway for my SPS reef tank, which I've already invested heavily in.

There's always the happy middle ground from those such as BRS and littlesilvermax - high quality stuff at lower prices - sort of like the "No Name Brand" products from the supermarket. I had complete confidence using those bulk chemicals in my tank that I have invested heavily in as well.

I found AquaDigital's posting to be insulting in the extreme, IMHO. According to him, I might as well have been pouring radioactive fallout into my tank when I was using two-part.

[lastlight]

Plus I heard DOW puts antiReef crystals into its new mix.

[Oceanic]

Plus I heard DOW puts antiReef crystals into its new mix.

LOL, actually... Dow did change their process that leaves fairly higher levels of bromide in their calcium flake. This has now proven to be a non issue (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1527547) in tanks with regular water changes...

[iansfishy]

I think what Aquadigital was saying was that the FM products are made exclusively for the reef, whereas DOW and arm and hammer are not. I believe that thread had been started because I had PM'ed Aqua Digital stating that I had run out of the FM sodium carbonate, and had been using Arm and Hammer as a substitute until I could get some more Of the FM product. And if he had known of anyone reporting ill effects using the balling method and Arm and hammer as a substitute. The problem being that im not in any hurry to purchase the FM product because it is $20.00 per kg as oppossed to $1.85 for arm and hammer. I have not noticed any ill effects using the Arm and hammer, but I agree slightly with aquadigital in given the choice I would rather use reef specific products but at what price? Not at 10x the price!
In the defence of Fauna marin however i have never had any "brown water" as the Dow will produce, BUT I am always looking for a cheaper substitute. I just cant get over the price of the product, and I agree with others saying that making the product affordable would defianetly help, but I dont make the product, and dont know the cost to produce the prodcut so who am I to say. I believe that the FM salts are pure with additional trace elements added by FM which could be the reason for the cost. Aquadigital has always been very helpful for me and I can see his points. He is simply saying that if your not using the products designed for "balling" your not really doing the balling method. He was making statements about a product he stands behind. As for people who are simply making their own salts with Dow and other cheaper products, and not doing the balling method I dont think he cares. Just my two cents. But what about the products from Littlesilvermax, will they substitute for the FM product?

[lastlight]

LOL, actually... Dow did change their process that leaves fairly higher levels of bromide in their calcium flake. This has now proven to be a non issue (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1527547) in tanks with regular water changes...

Lol yeah I know. I like most others who use or plan to use BRS or LSM...we've read the chemistry forums on RC. We've seen expert testimony and proof through their use. DIY supplements can and do work.

A brown bucket doesn't mean much to me. My Reef Crystals always used to leave the same thing in my bucket.

Plus check out the blue carpet. I call 20k bulb cover-up or photoshop conspiracy! Colors can't be trusted! :lol:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/monitors-direct/salts.jpg

[Tom R]

I have been dosing DIY salts for a number of years and yes like anyone in this hobby I would not put anything into my system if I thought it would harm it.

My system is 525G, many of my friends have systems that are between 250G and 500G. The product sold in our LFS has been packaged to sell at $10 to $20. This is fine for those who have systems of 75G or less.
The bulk of the cost in a $20 350g bottle of balling salts sold at a LFS is the cost of packaging and the 2 or 3 markups included to get the product to market. The cost of the balling salt itself is the least expensive part of the price.
If the manufactures made a bulk product available to the larger system owners maybe more of us would buy their products.

Tom R

[Myka]

If the manufactures made a bulk product available to the larger system owners maybe more of us would buy their products.

Tom R

Bingo! Sell it in a plain ole white bucket with a black and white sticker on top that simply says which product it is. Those of us who buy big buckets know what we're buying we don't need all the fancy schmancy sales pitches and pretty photos on the product.

[Oceanic]

I think what Aquadigital was saying was that the FM products are made exclusively for the reef, whereas DOW and arm and hammer are not. I believe that thread had been started because I had PM'ed Aqua Digital stating that I had run out of the FM sodium carbonate, and had been using Arm and Hammer as a substitute until I could get some more Of the FM product. And if he had known of anyone reporting ill effects using the balling method and Arm and hammer as a substitute. The problem being that im not in any hurry to purchase the FM product because it is $20.00 per kg as oppossed to $1.85 for arm and hammer. I have not noticed any ill effects using the Arm and hammer, but I agree slightly with aquadigital in given the choice I would rather use reef specific products but at what price? Not at 10x the price!
In the defence of Fauna marin however i have never had any "brown water" as the Dow will produce, BUT I am always looking for a cheaper substitute. I just cant get over the price of the product, and I agree with others saying that making the product affordable would defianetly help, but I dont make the product, and dont know the cost to produce the prodcut so who am I to say. I believe that the FM salts are pure with additional trace elements added by FM which could be the reason for the cost. Aquadigital has always been very helpful for me and I can see his points. He is simply saying that if your not using the products designed for "balling" your not really doing the balling method. He was making statements about a product he stands behind. As for people who are simply making their own salts with Dow and other cheaper products, and not doing the balling method I dont think he cares. Just my two cents. But what about the products from Littlesilvermax, will they substitute for the FM product?

I am not saying that he posted that with the intention of only pushing his product or business. I just have an issue with bad articles or advice.

[shrimpchips]

Lol yeah I know. I like most others who use or plan to use BRS or LSM...we've read the chemistry forums on RC. We've seen expert testimony and proof through their use. DIY supplements can and do work.


DIY does work, but for some it also means finding the product, buying a massive bag of ice melter (which I have no space to store), and dissolving the lot of it into a 5g bucket (which I have no place to store 3 of them). A few hundred grams of purer chemical in 4L of water works great for me, who is spatially challenged.


A brown bucket doesn't mean much to me. My Reef Crystals always used to leave the same thing in my bucket.

Plus check out the blue carpet. I call 20k bulb cover-up or photoshop conspiracy! Colors can't be trusted! :lol:


I think that's a funny comparison too, considering that the sides of the bucket are also clearly browned, unless dissolving the salts stains all the way up the bucket too, instead of just leaving a dirty residue at the bottom of the bucket.

Bingo! Sell it in a plain ole white bucket with a black and white sticker on top that simply says which product it is. Those of us who buy big buckets know what we're buying we don't need all the fancy schmancy sales pitches and pretty photos on the product.

My FM balling salts come in a plain white 4kg pail with a colourful sticker on the side. Damn colour stickers making it so expensive.

[lastlight]

Hey I'd likely use purer / reef-specific products too If I could afford to (meaning if they weren't so expensive). My beef was just the original post making all DIY additives out to be the devil. Some maybe aren't great for everyday use but it's been shown long-term to be a viable solution using some.

I hear you on space. I have my big box of chems under my computer desk here lol.

[shrimpchips]

Yeah, I agree that the OP (well on the other thread) was a bit (or more) "doom and gloom" about using DIY - it's a viable alternative, with inherent risks/problems just like everything else.

brand name/DIY aside, I just hate it when I'm in the elevator with buckets or bags of white powders and someone else steps in. Man, that becomes a long awkward ride to the 17th floor...

[littlesilvermax]

I often think about this stuff myself. I never get any residue in my mixing containers, and even if one did, could it just be a bit of dust? You know the dust that falls into your tank all day long?

I have only sold stuff I have used. In fact I have spend the better part of 5 months getting rid of corals that are all the size of basketballs (some bigger) getting ready for a move. So obviously you don't need expensive stuff to get good results.

I always get food grade stuff, so I think it is a grade above anything that will be used for driveway salt. I can't say that it is as good as the high dollar stuff sold by companies. If I could get 2 lbs of BrandXX calcium for $8, I would buy it in a flash, but I can't.

I do know that I have used brand name kalk in the past, and my non-brand name stuff had less residual. So just because there are expensive "reef" products out there, doesn't mean they are any better, but could actually be worse.

But in all reality, I do believe that some of the reputable manufacturers actually make good products, with good R&D in it, and that there trace elements may in fact help a bit.

How much difference do they make? Are the trace elements needed? Would more water changes (cheaper then using their balling method) offset the need for these trace elements? I don't know.

I would actually like to have 2 identical tanks running for a minimum of 2 years, and see which method works best

I wish I could add more, but I really don't know of any credible info to share.

[Ron99]

No chemicals are 100% pure. None. Period. You can probably get to 99.9% pure at a significant cost. The most pure ones are very expensive so it all depends on the grade of chemical you use. Are they using analytical grade? Pharmaceutical grade? Food grade? Reagent grade? Does FM list the grades of chemicals that are used in their products so it can be compared to BRS or LSM? I would almost certainly guarantee that they are all the same grade. The ACS or USP grade stuff gets really pricey.

[fkshiu]

As for people who are simply making their own salts with Dow and other cheaper products, and not doing the balling method I dont think he cares. Just my two cents. But what about the products from Littlesilvermax, will they substitute for the FM product?

I have used both BRS and LSM CaCl (among other chemicals). The BRS product mixes every bit as clear as the FM stuff. There is a small amount of residue at the bottom of LSM CaCl, but no more than what's there when I mix some IO.

You can use bulk chemicals for the "Balling Method" without issue. There's no magic to the Balling Method. It's essentially just a packaged and marketed version of Randy Holmes-Farely's two-part solution which is available to everyone for free:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

And I think AquaDigital cares a great deal about people using non-FM chemicals because the more people that are scared out of using bulk chemicals and into FM stuff, the more green shall line his jeans. I'm not saying that's wrong, it's just human nature.

[lastlight]

Three awesome posts there guys.

I'd like to add that if I paid the price for the name brand stuff I'd be lining my jeans with a different color.

[Myka]

My FM balling salts come in a plain white 4kg pail with a colourful sticker on the side. Damn colour stickers making it so expensive.

:lol: Hmmm....interesting.

[fiorano]

what about dosing.... milk... for CALCIUM we drink it maybe fish would liek it? haha but seriously ive never had the guts to try the diy supplements and salts and such. ... i almost tried vodka dosing but got scared again haha i think i just dont know enough about these things and dont want to put my reef at risk. but in the future i will be upgrading to a 225 so costs will be a fair bit higher and by then i will definitley want to try some of these diy methods. i just have to find the right ones i guess.