A dying question?

[shimmy]

Ok so last night after hours when my tank should have been sleeping I was up and about. I looked into my tank to see the my fish because i think they are assum, but what i found was the to the most of my surprise. they were all on the bottem DYEING so I freaked out then pulled my self to try to save them. I setup a quick tank out of my bathroom tub and moved them all into it.
the dying question comes from none of them survived.
I tested the tank for everything i have a test for and found nothing wrong.

list of things done yesterday to the tank.
water change
aquascaping


list of lost life.
1 X FoxFace
2 X Clowns
1 X Coral banded shrimp
1 X Emerald Crab
1 X Sally lightfoot
1 X Anthia

What im trying to figure out is what i did wrong to my tank?
What caused them all to die?
Any ideas would be great im afraid to add new fish intill i maybe find out what went wrong.

[whatcaneyedo]

Is it possible that you released an ammonia pocket or some H2S by aquascaping? Detail how you set up for an performed the water change. I have nuked a tank before with a bad water change... Could you also detail your system for us. What equipment do you run, what are your water parameters, how old is the tank etc.

[shimmy]

ok my tank is a 72 gallon and been setup for about 2-3 months (I think maybe less)
ok for the water change I remove 2 pails (3 gallons a pail i think) of water and then add 3 buckets over the course of several hours. I always remove the water first the add fresh. I float the new buckets of water in my tank to get them up to proper temp to insure I do not send a cold or hot wave through my tank (reason it takes several hours to do a change) I perform a water change every couple days for I dont have enough time in the day to do the 25%. I always match the salt close to the tank or slightly lower depending on the current salt of the tank.

break down
remove water
fill bucket with fresh
add salt
add chemicals as needed (i.e. Prime)
mix and check again
float in tank to get to even temp
dump bucket slowly into tank.

Water change was done early in the morning finished around noonish

my tank is filtered using a Fluval 304.
I use a 300W heater to maintain temperature(never turns on for between my condo and the lights its hot... 83 F)
I use a powerhead I cant recall the maker but its a 1600L/hr

nothing new has been added to my tank since sunday.

only my hermit crabs are still alive but dont look good
all my corals look good

any other questions?

[toxic111]

one thing I would do is get a pail or 2 set-up to mix your water the day before the water change, use a powerhead & heater... once a tank is set-up and stable, a 10% water change will be enough weekly.

Also it sounds like your tank was really new for that much stock...

Sorry for the losses it can be hard to lose that much that quickly.

[Stevey87]

This happened to me one time when my tank was about your age. Everything is fine and one day I wake up and most are dead or breathing heavily on the bottom. The day before, I added a pump and a wavemaker but I think that's just a coincidence. They were one of the hardiest fishes you can get. That never happened to me since then.

[shimmy]

I can understand adding new stuff shocking the system but nothing has been added and even being a new system should something not spike or change for water quallity? I just dont understand on why everything was good all day everyone was happy then just to fall over.

I am not afraid of the cost or the time or the hurt feelings im afraid to add new fish for nothing desrvers to die that has not hurt me.

[shimmy]

This happened to me one time when my tank was about your age. Everything is fine and one day I wake up and most are dead or breathing heavily on the bottom. The day before, I added a pump and a wavemaker but I think that's just a coincidence. They were one of the hardiest fishes you can get. That never happened to me since then.

did you ever find out what coused them to do so for thats sounds a lot like what was happining to me.

[Stevey87]

I didn't add fish for another month at least I think. It's not because I was afraid or anything, I just didn't feel like it. I still don't know why it happened like that.

[shimmy]

I didn't add fish for another month at least I think. It's not because I was afraid or anything, I just didn't feel like it. I still don't know why it happened like that.

did you ever test your water?

[Stevey87]

My water was ok. No ammonia or nitrite. Nitrate didn't seem too high either and I doubt that all changed in one night. For me it wasn't the water.

[kien]

ok my tank is a 72 gallon and been setup for about 2-3 months (I think maybe less)

This line struck me.. so your tank in theory could have been less than 2 months old? That's a pretty new tank. Did you start it up from scratch? If so, that is a VERY new tank. New tanks like that can be unstable and even after the cycle has completed need a little while longer to get its groove/stabilize/balance out etc..

In the first two months anything from adding too much fish to doing too much water change can throw the tanks balance off. You really do have to be careful in the first few months.

Did you set up your bathtub with brand new fresh saltwater ? They could have been stressed over a chemical imbalance due to the water change AND rock movement (potentially releasing chemicals), and then throwing them into a tub of newly mixed saltwater did them in. Anyway, that would be my theory.

Sorry to hear of your loss.

[shimmy]

well things happen and I will move on and get more fish I just wish I had some answers on why it had to happen and why they could not be saved.

[whatcaneyedo]

The fact that you moved everything into the bathtub really stikes me as well. Unless it was brand new it will be covered in soap scum and other chemical residues that will certainly kill everything.

[shimmy]

This line struck me.. so your tank in theory could have been less than 2 months old? That's a pretty new tank. Did you start it up from scratch? If so, that is a VERY new tank. New tanks like that can be unstable and even after the cycle has completed need a little while longer to get its groove/stabilize/balance out etc..

In the first two months anything from adding too much fish to doing too much water change can throw the tanks balance off. You really do have to be careful in the first few months.

Did you set up your bathtub with brand new fresh saltwater ? They could have been stressed over a chemical imbalance due to the water change AND rock movement (potentially releasing chemicals), and then throwing them into a tub of newly mixed saltwater did them in. Anyway, that would be my theory.

Sorry to hear of your loss.


yes the tank was newish (half old half new) and the tank cycled in 3 days (did not believe it my self but ???).
yes the bathtub was all new for if something was in the water I wanted to try to give them a fighting chance for they did not look good in the tank at all.

I never thought about stress or anything by moving the rock around.
would doing a water change changing or rock movment that has affected the chemical balance not show on tests though?

[kien]

well things happen and I will move on and get more fish I just wish I had some answers on why it had to happen and why they could not be saved.

In the end, I think you may find that it was a series of unfortunate events.. which is the case most of the time. Something relatively small and benign happens to/in the tank, which leads to something else.. then another thing.. (think domino), next thing you know it is out of control and poof, tank has crashed :( Then looking back it is hard to trace it down to any one thing because it was a whole slew of things.

For what it is worth, it happens to the best of us..

[shimmy]

well i do keep my condo cleen and it was a clean bucket in the bath tub (I should have described that all better)
the clowns showed better sines after the move but did not make the night.

[shimmy]

I will move on and try harder to prevent things in the future from happining and you are correct one little thing can start another little thing intill problems start, it would just be nice to know what little thing it was.

thanks everyone for your input on what it could have been.

[Binare]

The little thing is obvious, new tank barely cycled with way too much stuff in it. Then a quick dump in a much much colder chemical, dirt and soap infested bathtub. I'd be more surprised if anything lived.

[shimmy]

The little thing is obvious, new tank barely cycled with way too much stuff in it. Then a quick dump in a much much colder chemical, dirt and soap infested bathtub. I'd be more surprised if anything lived.

well the tank is cycled and I know that when too much to fast is added it can be found with testing usually (nitrate...) and nothing new has been added in days and the last thing added was the clowns (babies) last weekend.

If there is more to cycling then watching the chemical levels rise and fall back and forth till there is no more change even after adding new stuff then I need to know more.

also the temp that I moved them too was the same as what they come from I admit it was not cycled water or fully chemical treated but what you do in a situation like so?

what I put them into was CLEAN and they did just fine for the couple of hours I was up with them.

[new but handy]

did I miss the part when you said how many fish? If there was 10 fish added in less than 2 months.SLOW DOWN. I don't think I added any fish for 3 months then I added 1 a month

[shimmy]

did I miss the part when you said how many fish? If there was 10 fish added in less than 2 months.SLOW DOWN. I don't think I added any fish for 3 months then I added 1 a month

yes you did miss that part, I did have 4 fish

[fishytime]

ok my tank is a 72 gallon and been setup for about 2-3 months (I think maybe less)
ok for the water change I remove 2 pails (3 gallons a pail i think) of water and then add 3 buckets over the course of several hours. I always remove the water first the add fresh. I float the new buckets of water in my tank to get them up to proper temp to insure I do not send a cold or hot wave through my tank (reason it takes several hours to do a change) I perform a water change every couple days for I dont have enough time in the day to do the 25%. I always match the salt close to the tank or slightly lower depending on the current salt of the tank.

break down
remove water
fill bucket with fresh
add salt
add chemicals as needed (i.e. Prime)
mix and check again
float in tank to get to even temp
dump bucket slowly into tank.

Water change was done early in the morning finished around noonish

my tank is filtered using a Fluval 304.
I use a 300W heater to maintain temperature(never turns on for between my condo and the lights its hot... 83 F)
I use a powerhead I cant recall the maker but its a 1600L/hr

nothing new has been added to my tank since sunday.

only my hermit crabs are still alive but dont look good
all my corals look good

any other questions?

Sorry about your troubles:sad:

I would say also, that it could have been due to not letting the salt mix for long enough....mix for at least 12 hours before your water change....I have a 20g rubbermaid tote(like $8 at wallymart) that I use to pre-mix my water in... an inexpensive heater and power head is used to keep it at tank temperature and mixed.

Do you shut off flow to the tank for the couple hours it takes to do the water change? No flow for that length of time is bad and could have caused the "crash"

[kien]

If there is more to cycling then watching the chemical levels rise and fall back and forth till there is no more change even after adding new stuff then I need to know more.

There are two answers to this cycling question, the one that people want to hear, "cycling can be done in a few weeks", and the one that people don't want to hear, or choose to ignore (with varying degrees of success). While in theory a tank starts and can end its cycle within a few weeks, I personally would not consider it cycled, others may disagree. While the ammonia-nitrogen cycle enables fish and other living things to live in the tank without those toxic chemicals, this does not necessarily mean that the tank is finished with the FULL cycle in my opinion.

This is where the second and less favourable answer comes in. The FULL cycle can take up to a year. More things continue to go on in the tank after the initial cycle. For example, silicon and phosphates from live rock and sand are slowly released. This stage is where we tend to see algae and diatom blooms. The presence of these nuisances are an indication that you have silicates and or phosphates. This is where the tank is really JUST starting to balance itself out, as stuff leaches out, they are consumed by nuisance algaes until they are eventually and hopefully depleted. All the while, your bacterial culture is trying to keep up with your bioload (feedings, poops, pees, etc). The act of feeding can also throw chemicals into your tank. It can be quite a turbulent time for the tank. The more fish/critters, the more stress you add which the tank needs to account for. This is why everyone says, "take it slow". Give your tank and everyone in your tank time to adjust.

Anyway, not meaning to sound like a know it all (because trust me, I'm far from knowing it all! :-D ).. just sharing my experience with my tanks and cycling over the years. There will surely be other opinions on the matter.

[shimmy]

There are two answers to this cycling question, the one that people want to hear, "cycling can be done in a few weeks", and the one that people don't want to hear, or choose to ignore (with varying degrees of success). While in theory a tank starts and can end its cycle within a few weeks, I personally would not consider it cycled, others may disagree. While the ammonia-nitrogen cycle enables fish and other living things to live in the tank without those toxic chemicals, this does not necessarily mean that the tank is finished with the FULL cycle in my opinion.

This is where the second and less favourable answer comes in. The FULL cycle can take up to a year. More things continue to go on in the tank after the initial cycle. For example, silicon and phosphates from live rock and sand are slowly released. This stage is where we tend to see algae and diatom blooms. The presence of these nuisances are an indication that you have silicates and or phosphates. This is where the tank is really JUST starting to balance itself out, as stuff leaches out, they are consumed by nuisance algaes until they are eventually and hopefully depleted. All the while, your bacterial culture is trying to keep up with your bioload (feedings, poops, pees, etc). The act of feeding can also throw chemicals into your tank. It can be quite a turbulent time for the tank. The more fish/critters, the more stress you add which the tank needs to account for. This is why everyone says, "take it slow". Give your tank and everyone in your tank time to adjust.

Anyway, not meaning to sound like a know it all (because trust me, I'm far from knowing it all! :-D ).. just sharing my experience with my tanks and cycling over the years. There will surely be other opinions on the matter.

ok so im starting to understand more about this. the LPS that I go to informed me of only the first one and not the second one and everywhere I read nothing talks about why you need to go slow when there is no problems. when it does talk about going slow it only talks about watching the first cycle your tank goes through and not the second.

I know many people that took the slowes road (2months between fish even years after setup) and I know some that have added 4 fish the first 2 weeks they brought the box home.

I know im new to the SW world and trying to make it work and Im starting to feel even asking questions is not good enough unless you are asking the correct question but you got to know the correct question to got the correct answer.

[kien]

That's the kicker in this hobby.. As no two tanks are alike. What might take one tank a year to cycle might tank another tank 6 months due to other variables (the type and amount of rock and sand added, the type and amount of fish added, the type of salt added, the size of the tank, etc..). There are so many variables it is mind numbing to think about sometimes. This is why some people get away with being able to stock heavily after a short(ish) cycle while some people can struggle to maintain their tanks even after a year.

It is one part luck and one part experience. The veterins in the hobby still face some of these issues that newbies face, but the difference is that their experience has gained them knowledge to aid them in managing the issue. This is also where going slow helps. The first time you are presented with a salt water issue can be daunting. However, If you've taken things slow it affords you the time to figure things out before they escalate. Kind of a margin for error. If you speed into things that margin for error shrinks rapidly. Next thing you know your tank has crashed over night!

[argan]

did you have airation in the bucket after you moved them?

[mike31154]

Some info gaps with respect to your water change regimen? Are you using tap water to make up your water changes or do you have a RODI system? I started the hobby using tap water treated to bind the chlorine, but it's not something I would recommend. One of the best investments I've made is getting a RODI system for purified water.

I do fairly large water changes, about 25 to 30%, all at once. If I understand your water change procedure, it does not sound very efficient, seems like a lot of extra work and you may be well advised to make some changes there. Not sure this is the cause of your crash, but it should help keep things stable in the future. By ?taking out 2 pails and adding 3 buckets over the course of several hours? are you not removing some of the freshly added water you added previously? Perhaps I misunderstand your procedure, but I think it's best to remove all the water you intend to in one shot, then add all the fresh in one shot. This may not be feasible the way you're currently set up, but I'd suggest, as mentioned already by another member, you get a larger container to mix and heat your fresh salt water. Invest in an extra powerhead and small heater to get the new water to the right temp etc. Allow the water to mix at least a day before your water change. Floating pails of freshly mixed new water in the tank to get them up to tank temp seems like a lot of extra effort in order to do a water change. Hope things work out a bit better for you in the future, best of luck.

[shimmy]

Yes I remove all the desired amount of water I intend on replacing first before I add any new water to the system and I picked up a rubber tub last night and just looking for an old powerhead to make the water changes more affective. Yes the way I do things is lots of work but I do not have lots of room in my condo to have a fancy setup.
I stopped using tap water and started using purified bottled water (the 5 gallon jugs that you fill up at the grocery store) about a week ago and never had any problem with that water. Is that bad water to be using for my thinking was if it is purified and good enough for me to drink why not them?

[mike31154]

Using the grocery store water is a good start, but ultimately it's going to be another chore and expense that would be better addressed by getting an RO DI system. I'm pretty sure that the water from the store is RO (reverse osmosis) only and it will still have some TDS (total dissolved solids) in it. The DI (de-ionization or demineralization by ionization) stage of a RO DI system will bring the TDS of your water to 0 so you're mixing your salt in absolutely pure water. Check out some of the threads and info on RODI systems and you will find plenty of information. The initial investment may seem costly and although I don't know what your store charges for the bottled water, in the long run you will have better results and save money with your own RO DI system, especially with a 72 gal tank. The trips to the store for water will get old fairly quickly. As mentioned I do fairly large water changes on my 77 gal, about 25 gallons each time and I would not enjoy hauling that amount of water from the store every few weeks.

[Marlin65]

Just a few thoughts to throw out there.
Do you have a ground probe. Maybe you have a short somewhere it will kill your fish.
What about that prime you added maybe it is a bad bottle and the chlorine killed them.
Also having the circulation off for the water change dropped your oxygen levels to low.
Just some things to think about.

[shrimpchips]

Perhaps I read wrong, but one thing that struck me is that you said all the fish are dying/dead but the corals all remained fine?

I've had SPS corals survive out of a bag that reeked of death and were probably off the chart in ammonia - but fish would have been dead in that water for sure so maybe you had an ammonia burn or something similar due to stirring up crap, and also having a lower total volume (due to water displacement by the buckets of water). Maybe you had a dissolved oxygen issue also? I find that a lot of mysterious mass deaths in the night can usually be attributed to DO issues.

That being said, this is one of those "crashes" where the source is going to be difficult or impossible to pinpoint. But a better water change regimen would be a good place to start.

[shimmy]

The deaths did not happen during the water change so having the flow off I still don’t see the chance of that being what was the cause. I tested for ammonia as soon as I had noticed it and found nothing on my tester and same with the chlorine testing. Im thinking from everything people have suggested is that I had too many fish in my tank for the age of it and to be aquascaping and playing around in my tank shook the ecosystem too much.

[FitoPharmer]

just wondering, what is your turnover in your tank? how deep and what size of sand do you use? are you running a skimmer? do you know how long was it between you moving your rocks and the fish gasping? and what was your PH after the crash?

[shimmy]

Im running currently a fluval 304 (I have a larger pump just not fitted yet) and I have a powerhead that runs 1600L/H no sump.
The tank is a 72 gallon bow front (48”L 24”H 12”W) I have about 60 pounds of like rock and about 40 pounds of fine sand (cant recall for sure how big the bags were).
Currently not running a skimmer im still trying to find one.
I finished moving all the rock around 14:00 and found them in trouble around 22:00.
My PH has never moved its always been 7.8 - 7.9 (that was tested as well after the wreckage).

[FitoPharmer]

the 305 fluval, i guess the 304 is the older model, is 260GPH.
and the 1600 L/H power head is 400GPH.
660 for a 72 is less then 10X turnover very bad for accumulation in sand bed.
did you run your fluval with or without media?
and there wasn't any other circulation? 20X+ is best for reef tanks.

[shimmy]

Yes it is a fluval 304 its so OLD they have not made replacement parts for it in over 8 years at least im told.
But I have an Eheim Filter 2215 and trying to fit it onto my hard piped 304 setup. Yes I do run the pump with media so the flow is even less.
How could I get my flow up with out adding more powerheads for it sounds like im low on flow?
During the rock relocation the flow was off but was turned back on I completed my goal.

[shimmy]

Ok so something did not sound correct to me about the flow for my powerhead and there is, it is actually a 1600 G/H powerhead not 1600L/H.

[Ian]

First off very sorry to hear about the crash. I too am fairly new to this and the learning curve is harsh.
What others have said about the cycle taking much longer that expected is so true. My nano is so much easier to take care of now than it was 6 months ago. I have added/removed nothing in that time( except water) it just keeps getting more and more stable.
One thing nobody has talked about yet is surface agitation. By using a canister filter you have limited gas exchange in your fitration system so it increases the importance of having the surface of your tank turning over to get oxygen mixed throughout your entire water volume.If your pump and power head both are not causing ripples on the surface of your tank this could have made oxygen levels lower than expected and add another factor into this problem.Just an idea from one newb to another.
Good luck getting things going again

[shimmy]

Yes my powerhead generates lots of waves I even had to move it lower into my tank for I use to have a world pool that was sucking up air