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globaldesigns
11-10-2009, 04:42 PM
Hello Everyone,

I have been pondering a Kalk Reactor and researching things, but I am a bit confused overall.

Once setup, does it really keep Calcium at proper levels?
Is it easy?

It looks complicated, and I would really love to be able to come over and see one of these things going and maybe have it explained to me.

The money isn't the issue, just don't know anything about it. Currently I dose everything by hand, and it doesn't bother me, and actually I like doing it. But if this is better overall, please explain why. Is it because Calcium never changes?

Thanks in advance.

Delphinus
11-10-2009, 05:03 PM
I have one I suppose I could demo to you (I just don't happen to be using it, but if you need to see how it works I could do something) when I'm back home (out of town this week).

The main thing is that all they really all is a mixer, to help keep your kalk mixture saturated. Whether kalk can keep up your levels however is dependend on your calcium draw because you cannot add more kalk to your tank than the freshwater you lose by evaporation. So usually the best you can expect with kalk is a maintaining of current levels, or at least, a reduction in the decay rate.

So what a kalk reactor allows you to do is mix up a supersaturated solution (ie., part of the powder is unable to dissolve because it has nowhere to dissolve into), and thus the kalk that you add via the reactor is as concentrated as it can possibly be. As you add more RO/DI into the reactor, part of the undissolved kalk (the supernatant or whatever it's called, it's been a while since I did chemistry classes) is then able to dissolve, so the concentration of your effluent does not waver over time (until all the kalk powder is used up).

Calcium reactors are an improvement in that instead of feeding off FW for topup, they take water from your tank. Thus, you can run them as hard as you want, independent of your topup. But, they use CO2, this is complicated and expensive to startup, and CO2 pulls down your tank pH which can give nuisance algaes such as valonia a bit of a leg up (not always, but it can happen). So each device has it's own pros and cons. A kalk reactor tends to raise, or at least buffer the pH drop (ie., make the tank resistant to pH drops), so a few years ago it was pretty common to see serious SPS tanks running both Ca reactors and kalk reactors since they nicely complement each other.

But both tend to be a little old school these days. The current en vogue thinking is to use automated dosers or take it a step further and get into Balling method.

Oceanic
11-10-2009, 05:25 PM
I have one I suppose I could demo to you (I just don't happen to be using it, but if you need to see how it works I could do something) when I'm back home (out of town this week).

The main thing is that all they really all is a mixer, to help keep your kalk mixture saturated. Whether kalk can keep up your levels however is dependend on your calcium draw because you cannot add more kalk to your tank than the freshwater you lose by evaporation. So usually the best you can expect with kalk is a maintaining of current levels, or at least, a reduction in the decay rate.

So what a kalk reactor allows you to do is mix up a supersaturated solution (ie., part of the powder is unable to dissolve because it has nowhere to dissolve into), and thus the kalk that you add via the reactor is as concentrated as it can possibly be. As you add more RO/DI into the reactor, part of the undissolved kalk (the supernatant or whatever it's called, it's been a while since I did chemistry classes) is then able to dissolve, so the concentration of your effluent does not waver over time (until all the kalk powder is used up).

Calcium reactors are an improvement in that instead of feeding off FW for topup, they take water from your tank. Thus, you can run them as hard as you want, independent of your topup. But, they use CO2, this is complicated and expensive to startup, and CO2 pulls down your tank pH which can give nuisance algaes such as valonia a bit of a leg up (not always, but it can happen). So each device has it's own pros and cons. A kalk reactor tends to raise, or at least buffer the pH drop (ie., make the tank resistant to pH drops), so a few years ago it was pretty common to see serious SPS tanks running both Ca reactors and kalk reactors since they nicely complement each other.

But both tend to be a little old school these days. The current en vogue thinking is to use automated dosers or take it a step further and get into Balling method.

Nicely said!

whatcaneyedo
11-10-2009, 06:20 PM
Just call me old fashioned I guess, I use both a kalk reactor and a Calcium Reactor. Plus a beckett skimmer but thats another story. :biggrin:

Here is my DIY Kalk Reactor. Its the same principle as a Precision Marine or GEO reactor. Freshwater from my ATO system pumps through it to mix with the kalk powder inside which is then pushed into the aquarium. The pump on the side turns on with a timer several times each day to give it a quick mix. Once every two weeks I open up the top and dump another cup of kalk into the reactor.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh109/whatcaneyedo/Picture271.jpg

Here are some articles for further reading:

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser)
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/chem.htm

The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-0...ture/index.htm

Magnesium and Strontium in Limewater
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

fkshiu
11-10-2009, 06:36 PM
Here are some articles for further reading:

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser)
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/chem.htm

The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-0...ture/index.htm

Magnesium and Strontium in Limewater
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm


Randy Holmes-Farley is the MAN!

I do a CaRx with kalk as well, but my kalk reactor is passive meaning that I don't have anything like powerhead stirring it up. It's just hooked up in my top off resevoir as part of my osmolator. I mainly use it to keep pH up as opposed to supplying the tank's Ca and Alk needs.

Dez
11-10-2009, 07:44 PM
I used to use both Kalk and Calcium reactor, but after starting zeo, the main guy on the zeo forum recommended that I cease using the Kalk reactor because the Kalkwasser has binding properties for P04. I have since taken it offline and my ph sits a little lower constantly, but everything is still growing fine. I'm not sure if you're a zeovit user, but this was the info I got from the zeo forum.

Delphinus
11-10-2009, 11:53 PM
Yeah they don't like you running kalk if you're doing Zeo.

Other than the interference with Zeo, there's nothing wrong with running a calcium reactor and/or kalk reactor. "Old school" doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that it's not the newest bandwagon fad. :)

whatcaneyedo
11-10-2009, 11:58 PM
In the first article I posted Randy talks about how the addition of kalkwasser helps to reduce phosphate by several different methods. Binding to precipitated calcium carbonate or forming calcium phosphate and becoming coated with organic molecules that are skimmed out are two of them. Hardly a reason to stop using it in my opinion. What was the zeo guys rational?

Delphinus
11-11-2009, 12:12 AM
Probably on account that it's competing for PO4 (zeo will pull down PO4 as well). Apparently in some cases a slight amount of PO4 (or more specifically the ratio of NO3 to PO4) is more important than the actual numbers themselves (and both are used up organically) so maybe running both simply depletes it too much perhaps. I'm just guessing. It would be a good question to ask over at zeovit.com to see what spin they will have on that. If you do happen to do that please post back here what they say.

I hope I didn't put you off by calling it old school - not my intent. Like I said, it works great, it's just an idea that's been around a while (I was running both ... in 2002. :lol:). I don't anymore though, I use my CO2 on my FW planted tank and just dose the reef tanks (using a ghetto but automated setup). It's more economical for me this way since I run multiple reef tanks.

One nice thing about a kalk reactor is that the output can be split to different tanks so it lends itself well to the many-tank-syndrome people. Calcium reactors cannot.

whatcaneyedo
11-11-2009, 12:28 AM
Thats okay I was just curious. I've only been doing this for 5 years but I buy so many things second hand that I've become old school because the old electricity sucking equipment is so cheep to buy used.

Delphinus
11-11-2009, 12:44 AM
Yeah, no worries, don't fix it if it ain't broke. :)

globaldesigns
11-11-2009, 02:16 AM
K, I think I am confused... Isn't Kalk Reactors used to maintain calcium... Or are they different from actual Calcium reactors.

I was wanting something to help maintain calcium, automatically. Any help would be appreciated.

whatcaneyedo
11-11-2009, 02:47 AM
Did you have a look at the first article I posted? BTW Lime, pickling lime, kalkwasser, kalk, and calcium hydroxide are all different names for the same thing. This is what is in the article:


"* What Is Lime?
* Where To Get Lime
* Purity Of Commercial Lime
* What Is Limewater?
* How To Dose Limewater
* Vinegar And Limewater To Reduce pH
* Vinegar And Limewater To Boost Limewater Potency
* What Else Is In Limewater Besides Calcium And Alkalinity? Metallic Impurities
* What Else Is In Limewater Besides Calcium And Hydroxide? Mg++ and Sr++
* What Gets Left Behind On The Bottom Of The Limewater Container?
* Does Limewater Degrade Over Time? The Degradation Reaction
* What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Raise pH Whether You Want It To Or Not
* What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Raise pH When You Need It
* What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Reduce Magnesium
* What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Reduce Phosphate
* Limitations To Limewater: Limits To The Addition Of Calcium And Alkalinity
* Dosing Other Additives in Limewater
* Lime Safety
* Summary"

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

globaldesigns
11-11-2009, 02:50 AM
Did you have a look at the first article I posted? BTW Lime, pickling lime, kalkwasser, kalk, and calcium hydroxide are all different names for the same thing. This is what is in the article:


"* What Is Lime?
* Where To Get Lime
* Purity Of Commercial Lime
* What Is Limewater?
* How To Dose Limewater
* Vinegar And Limewater To Reduce pH
* Vinegar And Limewater To Boost Limewater Potency
* What Else Is In Limewater Besides Calcium And Alkalinity? Metallic Impurities
* What Else Is In Limewater Besides Calcium And Hydroxide? Mg++ and Sr++
* What Gets Left Behind On The Bottom Of The Limewater Container?
* Does Limewater Degrade Over Time? The Degradation Reaction
* What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Raise pH Whether You Want It To Or Not
* What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Raise pH When You Need It
* What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Reduce Magnesium
* What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Reduce Phosphate
* Limitations To Limewater: Limits To The Addition Of Calcium And Alkalinity
* Dosing Other Additives in Limewater
* Lime Safety
* Summary"

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

Thanks, I do believe I read that article, but will go over it again. Much appreciated.

Money isn't really a factor, I am just trying to see how I can manage my dosing regime in a automated fashion. I am thinking by doing it this way, I can keep constant parameters... Not saying mine are bad, and I don't have much in the way of fluctuations, but anything to make it more realistic to a natural environment. I am just scared to do anything like this and kill my tank.

Delphinus
11-11-2009, 02:54 AM
Two different beasts but work toward to a similar goal.

A kalk reactor is a just a fancy kalk mixer. Some use powerheads, some actually use stirring devices. You can dose kalk without using a kalk mixer. The simplest setup is a bucket and a dripline and poof, done.

So the reactor makes it so you don't have to mix up new kalk as often.

A calcium reactor on the other hand uses CO2 to lower pH inside of it to dissolve calcium gravel. The CO2 diffuses out of the water after mixing into the tank water, leaving behind just liquid calcium. As such, it's a little more complicated, but can be adjusted to output a very high degree of calcium.

If your calcium draw is low to medium, the kalk reactor will serve your needs. If your calcium draw is extreme, however, it possibly won't be able to keep up.

But as stated, kalk can be used to precipitate phosphate out of the water column. This makes a kalk mixer still useful even if you have a calcium reactor.

globaldesigns
11-11-2009, 02:58 AM
Two different beasts but work toward to a similar goal.

A kalk reactor is a just a fancy kalk mixer. Some use powerheads, some actually use stirring devices. You can dose kalk without using a kalk mixer. The simplest setup is a bucket and a dripline and poof, done.

So the reactor makes it so you don't have to mix up new kalk as often.

A calcium reactor on the other hand uses CO2 to lower pH inside of it to dissolve calcium gravel. The CO2 diffuses out of the water after mixing into the tank water, leaving behind just liquid calcium. As such, it's a little more complicated, but can be adjusted to output a very high degree of calcium.

If your calcium draw is low to medium, the kalk reactor will serve your needs. If your calcium draw is extreme, however, it possibly won't be able to keep up.

But as stated, kalk can be used to precipitate phosphate out of the water column. This makes a kalk mixer still useful even if you have a calcium reactor.

Delphinus, Wow thanks!!! you made it all make sense. My calcium demand is probably low to medium, so Kalk makes sense. And with phosphate management, Kalk looks even better. I will look into this. Anyone willing to show off their system to me, in Calgary... Like I stated before, I just don't want to do anything drastic and kill my tank.

whatcaneyedo
11-11-2009, 03:03 AM
K, I think I am confused... Isn't Kalk Reactors used to maintain calcium... Or are they different from actual Calcium reactors.

I was wanting something to help maintain calcium, automatically. Any help would be appreciated.

I suck at explaining things but the last article that I posted:
How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
summarized the differences between kalk reactors, calcium reactors and 2 part supplementing methods.


EDIT: oops you just beat me too it. lol I really should get off the computer and go do something else.

soapy
11-11-2009, 04:54 PM
Randy Holmes-Farley is the MAN!

I do a CaRx with kalk as well, but my kalk reactor is passive meaning that I don't have anything like powerhead stirring it up. It's just hooked up in my top off resevoir as part of my osmolator. I mainly use it to keep pH up as opposed to supplying the tank's Ca and Alk needs.

Hey Fkshiu,

how exactly do you run your kalk with your osmolater? I have a reservior with an osmolater and am interested in hooking something like that up.

fkshiu
11-11-2009, 05:28 PM
Hey Fkshiu,

how exactly do you run your kalk with your osmolater? I have a reservior with an osmolater and am interested in hooking something like that up.

I simply stuck a TLF phosban reactor on the outfeed of the osmolator pump. This way everytime the osmolator kicks in kalk water is mixed and pumped into the tank.

Tunze's calcium dispenser works exactly the same way except you pay a lot more for their container instead of a phosban reactor. I hooked up the reactor with the osmolator tubing using drip irrigation bits from Home Depot.

I simply refill the reactor with kalk once a week.

This passive method is not as effective in saturating the water with kalk as an active reactor whereby the kalk is stirred up on the regular basis. But it works fine for my purposes of simply keeping pH up with my calcium reactor doing the heavy lifting for Ca/Alk.

globaldesigns
11-12-2009, 09:25 PM
Does anyone in the Calgary area have a kalkwasser mixer for sale? Just wondering, if so, please post specs and what you want for it. thanks.

I also have a Deltec Fluidizer not being used, can this be modded for this purpose?

soapy
11-12-2009, 10:44 PM
Thanks fkshiu,

I will have to try rigging up some kind of tank gizmo after my osmolator.

PoonTang
11-12-2009, 11:29 PM
I just mix my Kalk into my ATO water. One timer turns on the pump to the tank every 4 hours and another turns a pump on in the bucket and recirculates it 1 hour after. I just use 2 mj 400's. You can adjust the amount that you add to the tank with a little valve and adjust the kalk to your tanks requirements by how much you add to the bucket.