skin flukes....yet another joy of reefing

[christyf5]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b365/christyf5/nov%205%202009%20skin%20flukes/flukes1.jpg

on the flip side, he's laying the smack down to my majano population, or at least scaring the crap out of them :razz:

[Delphinus]

Ai yi yi. Looks itchy :( Is there anything that can be done? FW dips maybe??

[christyf5]

Yeah fw dip, if I can catch him. Some guy prazipro-ed his SPS tank without any problems, currently I'm looking at that option.

[sphelps]

PraziPro treats for flukes and is suppose to be completely safe, I talked to a few people who used it without any problems.

I remember reading that flukes is like swimmers itch and the whole tank should be treated as appose to isolating and treating one victim.

[fishoholic]

Yeah fw dip, if I can catch him. Some guy prazipro-ed his SPS tank without any problems, currently I'm looking at that option.

I know someone who did that will no ill effects to inverts or corals and the prazipro got rid of the flukes.

[christyf5]

Thanks guys.

So I've got someone on another board that considers this a heavy infestation and he recommends two freshwater dips a couple days apart before treating with prazipro. I guess the loss of all of the flukes at once is too traumatic for the fish?

Any thoughts on this??

I agree though, the whole tank should be treated at this point. None of the other fish are exhibiting any signs of the flukes but better to be safe than sorry.

[shrimpchips]

I've heard that it's reef safe too - the only exception being a mention of xenids and GSP withering due to treatment - but I haven't see anything confirming that.

[christyf5]

I've heard that it's reef safe too - the only exception being a mention of xenids and GSP withering due to treatment - but I haven't see anything confirming that.


I don't have either but I'd gladly watch them whither if I did :razz:

[sphelps]

I'm not sure on the accuracy of the flukes being that serious but I would only remove the fish for a FW dip as a last resort. Personally I would try the treatment first, if that didn't seem to make a difference for the fish then I would try something along the lines of a FW dip.

[christyf5]

ok, I would imagine catching the fish would be just as stressful anyways, on both the fish and myself :razz:

thanks for the support guys!! :biggrin:

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Hi Christy,

Flukes suck and it looks like you Butterfly has a real bad case of it.

I would do my best to try and catch it and treat it seperatly.

The picture indicates that the flukes has attacked the gills and is probably causing respitory problems for the fish.

My experiences with flukes is that all Butterflys and Angels should be treated with Prazi Pro (Praziquintal) as they are the most common fish to have flukes.

It will take several dippings to get rid of all the flukes but I am not sure how many treatments is necessary to rid of it all in the DP.

I use Prazi to dip monti eating nudis as well so they are not harmful to Montis unless it is used in a high dosage.

Please try to catch it with a clear plastic container to avoid any more stress, best bet is to use a fish catcher if you have one.

I dip my fish with R.O. water buffered to the appropriate PH level and temp as the DP and generously dose Prazi into the the quarintine tank.

I use an air stone to add extra oxygen because my dips are generally about 20 mins long. Please monitor the fish because if it looks like it is laying down on it's side and not swimming; this is not a good sign and immediately remove it and put it back into the DP or isolation chamber (sump) if you have one.

Your fish looks like it might not do so good with a full fresh water bath so maybe you can take some DP water and fresh RO and lower the salinity to about 1.012 and dose Prazi.

There might be some secondary infection due to the flukes eating away at the fish; so if you can find some Methylane Blue and treat it at the same time with Prazi. Make sure that the water is a nice deep blue and MAKE sure to use an air stone as Methylane blue robs the water of oxygen.

You will need to do this for about 3 days but usually after the first dip if the fish is strong enough; it will start eating again.

If it doesn't, that means that the flukes have attacked it's gills and the fish in unable to feed.

Flukes suck and in my personal experience, it is grossly under diagnosed and I believe that a lot of Copperbands end up dying because people are not able to identify what the cause of the death really was.

So for everybody reading this, please dip all Angels and Butterflys with Praziquintal or Prazi Pro. You will be amazed to see how many flukes are on them that are not visible to the naked eye.

Symptoms of flukes are:

Jerking of the head left to right (like the fish is trying to shake something off).

Cloudy eye (in one eye typically).

Heavy breathing (flukes attacking the gills).

Tattered Fins (flukes eating away at the fish).

Not eating (fish is too stressed out to eat).

Emaciated look and eventual death if the fish isn't treated properly for this monster fish killer.

I hate flukes if you can't tell and they are ugly little things that make my skin crawl every time I see them.

Do yourself a favour and have Prazi Pro on hand all the time. JL has the best price for them IMO.

Thanks.

[christyf5]

Thanks for the info Paul. I decided not to catch the fish out of the display as it would just be too much stress on him. He was stressed out just with me standing in front of the tank taking pictures. I found some prazipro and dosed the tank this afternoon. I was just down feeding the tank now (he's eating even more than he was yesterday) and the majority of the flukes are already gone except for a few on his tail and one or two on his eye. There is a bit of residual looking damage to his side where it looks a bit raw and abraded but I think as long as I can keep him eating he'll likely be fine.

To be honest, after my last QT fiasco I can't really say I was overjoyed at that option and decided to give the tank treatment a go, esp since the other fish were "potentially" infected or at least exposed to the flukes.

Successful so far! The bottle says treatment for 5-7 days so I'll likely let it go for 5 or so then run carbon and do a waterchange.

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Glad to hear that he's eating!!

Keep an eye on the secondary infection. It can turn into a bacterial infection quickly and that's not good.

I would feed him often in small quantities so that he has the energy to fight both the fluke and the infection. Do you soak your food in vitamins? If not maybe try doing that and also some garlic guard as well.

Ich tends to rear it's ugly head at this stage as well.

I hate to be a downer and I just want you to know and be prepared just in case.

He's eating is a great sign of recovery.

What is the temperature in your tank?

[christyf5]

Yep I soak my food in garlic, no selcon to be had around here. Currently the tank is about 77-78. I think thats about as low as I want to go. He seems pretty active so hopefully with the extra feedings he'll recover fine :biggrin:

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Great Job Christy!!

You know what you're doing.

You don't need me :wink:

[christyf5]

Great Job Christy!!

You know what you're doing.

You don't need me :wink:

LOL, I only sound like I know what I'm doing :razz: Its nice to have you here though for the support! :biggrin:

[Marlin65]

Any update on this I think my clown might have it looks like the same thing?
Not as bad but looks like there is one on her.

[christyf5]

Took about 4 days for the last "suspect" to fall of the raccoons tail. After 5 days I did a 30 gallon waterchange and started running carbon. Everything in the tank is A-OK and fluke free! :biggrin:

[JDigital]

That's good news christy! Congrats :mrgreen:

[Delphinus]

Hmmm, bumping this. Looks like I have to find me some Prazipro. :( Where can one find this? Most LFS's? I'm about to go looking now..

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Hey Tony,

JL has them on hand all the time. As a last resort you can buy it from a large Pond dealer. They use them to treat Koi and goldfish as well but they charge twice as much for it.


Cheers,

Paul

[Delphinus]

Thanks Paul, will be looking for some tomorrow - hopefully someone local has some tucked away somewhere. It came in on a new fish introduced last weekend and it was only tonight that I realized what I was seeing. I'm a little ticked at myself because I noticed it a few days ago but wrote it off as abrasions or scratches since there's always a bit of a "hazing" from the existing tank members when a new guy comes along. Plus it is a light coloured fish so the flesh is the same colour as the flatworms so you really have to see them in just the right viewing angle to make out that they are indeed little raised spots. And it explains the incessant scratching and head shaking I've been seeing from this guy. :( I just hope it's not too late.

[bvlester]

I treated my tank for fluks after stressing a flame angle so much it didn't make to more than 1.5 days. Catching a fish in a display tank is not prity even with 90% of the rock out. Prazi-pro works it only afected my pink tip Nem but it has bounced back. I will not try and catch a fish in the DT again treat with prazi-pro it will rid the tank of flate worms fluks, ancor worms, tape worms and Turbellarians. instructions say to add 5ml per 20g I did 4ml per 20g then wated 2 days and added the other 1ml per20g and added 1ml each day after to manetane level for the full 7days. then do a 25% water change. then your back to normal remember you have to remove any carbon stop skimmer and UV. I put my skimmer on after 5 days for a couple hours and if liquide was clear returned it back to the sump. remember I have a low bio load in my tank and I keep it that way in case of power failures and outher unforseen situations. I can't stress this more get a good skimmer and UV sterilizer make all the difference when it comes to things like ICK and other bad bugs that have a cycle.

Bill

[Leah]

Hmmm, bumping this. Looks like I have to find me some Prazipro. :( Where can one find this? Most LFS's? I'm about to go looking now..

Oh no! sorry to hear this, good luck with the hunt today. I have some I could throw on the bus if you are stuck and can't find some out there.

[bvlester]

I ordered mine from the USA and had no troubles getting it cleared through customs. J&L's prices are very good I payed a bit less with shipping but I was not in a hurry at the time. give J&L a call if you don't fine nay localy.

Bill

[Delphinus]

Found some Praztastic made my National Fish Pharmaceuticals which from what I can tell is the same product (praziquantel), only in powdered form. I need to see if I have any vodka though because it needs to be first dissolved in ethyl alcohol to become soluble in water.

[bvlester]

Found some Praztastic made my National Fish Pharmaceuticals which from what I can tell is the same product (praziquantel), only in powdered form. I need to see if I have any vodka though because it needs to be first dissolved in ethyl alcohol to become soluble in water.
It is the same thing except the powder is hard to get to disolve in to a liquide and prazi-pro does not have one other thing in it. Both will work equily as well, if you use the powder disolve it in a seporate container of saltwater that is a bit wormer than the tank let sit for a bit and stir again before adding to the sump. Go a bit light and dose and bump up after a day then add what is needed to maintian dosage.

Bill

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Make sure you turn off your skimmer. Prazi will make your skimmer go nuts.

Paul

[Delphinus]

I forgot to turn off my skimmer. Just came home from errands and was checking things and was remarking to myself that I probably should have turned it off. Rather than going berserk though it's sort of .. like it's stuck in foam or something.

How often can I redose this stuff? Do I have to wait 3 to 5 days? My new tang is in really rough shape thanks to these horrible things. :(

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

How much did you dose initially? If there was an adequate amount, you should see results fairly quickly, the same day or next. I would add add some more all the while keeping an eye on some of the soft corals. You should start to see the lil nasty buggers slide off or lose their grip on the fish.

HTH.

Paul

[Delphinus]

The instructions online said 1/4 teaspoon per 40g, so I took a half shot glass of vodka I found in my pantry (impressed I had any at all, I'm not sure where it came from !!) mixed 3/4 teaspoons powder into that (tank is a 115g so I rounded up to 120g), it turned a bright pink, I stirred it for about 2 minutes. It was definitely not very soluble still, lots of particulate in the tank that took about a half hour to settle out. Did notice a nudibranch looking thing I'd never seen before floating around (maybe it was a big flatworm? I dunno) so I think some effect must be there.

I did call around and did find a LFS with Prazipro, just basically ran out of time today and couldn't get to that store but I'll be able to stop by tomorrow. I can see the advantage to a bottled solution over something I have to mix myself.

So I should be ok to hit the tank again tomorrow? Man, I absolutely hate the idea that I'm nuking my display tank but I don't see what other option I have (at least there are plenty of stories out there to reassure me that the tank ought to come out the other side!)

I'll see if I can post a picture of the tang. His face is covered in ulcers, there are ulcers along his back and one of his fins is a bit eroded as well. :( I just hope made the right call deciding that it's flukes and it's not something else.

[Delphinus]

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn239/delphinus_photos/P2060001.jpg

Each of those black splotches on his ride back side there were raised little white lumps yesterday. His face doesn't look so bad in this photo but when I look at him in person I think it looks pretty rough. :( You can see white spots on his eyes still.

[Carmen]

ugh Tony, I can see why you feel the need to treat the display. Fishy looks pretty rough. Hope it goes well. Fingers crossed for you!:neutral:

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Fluke damage can cause secondary infection. If this is the case, you may need to find a way to capture the tang and treat it. Mose antibiotics are toxic to reefs.

The ulcers that you mention could be the result of a bacterial infection and it will start to erode away at the wound.

The flukes typically attack the fins and make them look ratty. They also make the eyes look cloudy.

Is the tang starting to look ematicated? Is his lateral lines starting to show and is he still eating at all?

The main priority is to maintain his ability to eat. If he still can, feed him lots and often so that he has the energy to fight off the parasite. Once the fish stops eating, you basically only have a couple of days before it succumbs.

Hope you're no where near that stage yet.

Careful on dosing the Prazipro when you get it tomorrow. Although difficult to overdose on that stuff, it can still be done. Watch your inverts.

Paul

[Delphinus]

He's still eating. I have an autofeeder dumping in pellets every 4 hours now (was 6 hours before today) and a second one that dumps in maybe twice a day (not controllable). Everytime I put food in the tank he responds by chasing it down, he also hangs out under the feed ring for the one feeder and picks off all the floaters.

Hospital tank though for antibiotics, oh man that's not good. :( I have a 30g I could set up in a pinch but when I used it as a QT tank a few months ago it was a complete disaster (every fish I tried to QT, died). So needless to say the prospect of housing him in there for antibiotic treatment scares me a lot. :( I'm really hoping he will come around without capture at this point!

What would I do to ensure I don't overdose the Prazipro? Should I go half-dosage when I get it tomorrow?

[bvlester]

if the ulcers are realy bad and there are alot your have to get antibiotics into him you can get antibiotic food very pricy. if the ulcers are not bad you can use melifix in the water to aid in the healing process. Melifix this does not get rid of infection but will aid in healing. I have used it your skimmer will go nuts.

Bill

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Any update on the tang's status?

Paul

[Delphinus]

He looks better today, but still has a way's to go. I did find some Prazipro in the end yesterday, but decided against adding a second treatment just for the time being. So today he looks better, his face has cleared up, but there is still the grey discoloration spots on his backside so I assume he's not 100% healed up. His eyes have cleared up. There are a few suspicious spots though (mostly on his fins, one on his chin under his mouth) and thus I'm considering a second treatment, although now I'm not sure if I should use the liquid Prazipro I just bought or try the Praziquantel again (as per RC I understand Praziquantel is a much stronger dosage).

The tank itself looks like sewage (film algae over everything) but this could be due to the skimmer and carbon shutdowns more than the pharmaceutical itself. I'm unsure if I should do a water change first and then a second treatment or whether I should just add the second treatment now and then do the water change later in the week (and reinstate the carbon and skimmer and stuff).

Any thoughts?

[Delphinus]

So compare this taken today (Feb 24) to my last photo (Feb 6), so, what is that, 18 days? A little over two weeks, not quite three weeks difference..

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn239/delphinus_photos/IMG_0041.jpg

The light patches you can see in the photo are the areas that are still healing, perhaps scarring. The worn fins have pretty much healed and regrown.

Score one for the Praziquantel!

I haven't ruled out a second treatment at some point as I am still seeing, on occasion, little white dots on the fish that I can't identify. Sometimes they are not there anymore the next day, but sometimes they are, until maybe 2-3 days later. So I wonder if there are still flukes in the system and the occasional one is getting through the slime coat barriers but otherwise for the most part held at bay by the fishes' own immunities.

[freezetyle]

wow. thats quite the improvement!

[christyf5]

Awesome to hear Tony!!! :mrgreen:

[Gooly001]

Score 1 for the good guys!!

Everyone should go and get themselves a bottle of Prazi to have on hand.

Good stuff Tony.

Paul