What is your phosphate management routine?

[Delphinus]

Something I've always been curious of, is people's approaches to managing phosphate in the reef tank.

This is something that over the years I've taken a very casual approach to, to a very heavy monitored approach. I've used all kinds of GFO, I've used chaeto and macroalgae growout refugiums, I've used Zeovit. I ran every kind of test kit, I went out and bought a low range Phosphate colorimeter and tested tested tested.

The one inescapable conclusion I always came to though, was that I never noticed I had a phosphate problem. I could never tell when it was time to replace GFO because I could never get a nonzero reading with the test kits. The colorimeter was a joke because the specifications themselves state that there is a 0.04 plus-minus tolerance, which to me on a 0.01 precision/resolution scale, is an enormous tolerance. Not so enormous perhaps if you have measurable amounts of phosphates in your tank at 0.1 (ie., ten times the minimum resolution) but that is something I've never seen happen in my own tanks.

Bu then, no discussion of phosphate is complete without paying attention to inorganic phosphate versus organic phosphate, and which of which the test kits may (or may not) be picking up on.

So, I'm posting a poll here because I'm interested to see what everyone else does for this. Please also reply and share your thoughts about what you do and why.

Do you observe levels of PO4 or have any kind of testing routine for it?

If you run GFO, when do you replace it out? Do you observe levels and test when you notice an increase? Or do you simply follow a timed schedule, and take faith that you are replacing it frequently enough, and for that matter, take faith that it is giving you a benefit for doing so? Or have you noticed an actual difference in the tank before and after?

Or do you run Zeo, and call it done (since ULNS's will scavenge PO4 as well as NO3?)

Or do you simply run a fuge? If so, do you call it "done" ? Or do you also test your PO4 at some regular interval?

If I've missed anything in the poll options, please let me know, if I can edit it in to add an option, I will do so.

[nlreefguy]

Personally I run GFO all the time, test regularly, and whenever I see detectable phosphate on at least two consecutive tests, change out the GFO. No particular time schedule. I've also noticed that I don't really need to test to know when my PO4 levels are up. My corals just generally don't so as well, I get noticable browning, and it's the ONLY time I ever get any algae issues from hair algae to slime algae to cynao (very mild and never get any of that otherwise).

[JDigital]

I had to vote for a 4 of the options even though they weren't COMPLETELY correct...

I run Rowaphos in a reactor (which reminds me, it needs changed..), I use 4 of the Zeo Products but no reactor, I do weekly waterchanges (15%), I use Chemipure Elite (don't think this does much for PO4 tho), and I have never performed a PO4 test.

I've only got a small algae issue in my current tank, and its only on 1 of the piece of liverock, so I've concluded that its still phosphates leaching from that rock.. but really, no idea.

EDIT: I think I can also blame some of my algae to laziness, as whenever I am filling my Top-up pail or buckets for waterchanges, until this week I have simply dropped the RO hose into the bucket and turned it on, not waiting and giving it the chance to flush the old stale water from the unit.

So initial water coming out of the RO usually records 10-15ppm before it flushes clear and reads 0... So I have changed that part of my process and now let it run down the drain until I get 0ppm reading before filling my buckets.

[kien]

I run GFO.
I use macroalgae (chaeto)
I test PO4 infrequently.
I have never had a PO4 reading.

---

I run GFO (rowaphos) in a two little fishes phosban reactor (ever since day 1). I just change the GFO once a month. I have no idea if that is adequate (reason below).

I have had to mooch a bunch of chaeto from people (yourself included), because the first couple of balls of chaeto I got from someone never grew that well. Then got a few more balls of chaeto. Now my 'fuge is full of chaeto from like 8 different canreefers LOL!! I can not seem to get my chaeto to grow for the life of me :( (that might be a good sign though.. i don't know).

I used to test P04 a lot (like the first month when the tank was set up), but I never ever got a reading from my test kit. The frequency of testing started to go down and is now sitting at nil. I have not tested for a long while.

The only algae complaint I had with my tank was the film algae on the glass that would appear more frequent than I would like. I recently discovered that this was mostly due to the low southern sun blasting into my living room in the afternoon when I wasn't home and hitting the tank dead on! I've fixed that by closing the blinds :lol: (although my starfish aren't as happy with me now).

That's pretty much the sum of my P04 routine.

[JDigital]

^^ I have the same problem.

Chaeto flourished in my 75G, which in comparison to my current tank is stocked about even for bio-load I THINK, and I was running a skimmer and GFO.

Now with my current tank with no skimmer at all, I can't get Chaeto to grow at all.. I took a small ball from my 75 to start, and its pretty much disappeared.

[whatcaneyedo]

I first tested P04 a little over a year ago with an elos test kit. The reading was .75 and presently it is .01

In the past 14 months this is what I've done:
Doubled my water changes and currently do +/-27gal weekly on a 270gal system.
Started running 250ml rowaphos which I change monthly.
I grow both chaetomorphia and gracillaria in a fuge, formerly I only grew one or the other.
Strain all of my frozen food of its packing fluids.
I've increased the flow in my display to about 30x/hr turnover from 20x.
Upgraded my skimmer from a PM Bullet 2 to a 3.
Decreased the bioload on my tank by unintentionally losing my big lionfish.
Removed my remote DSB (PO4 binds to calcium carbonate).
Built a larger DIY Kalk Reactor (its suppose to precipitate PO4 from solution so that it can be skimmed out).

[lastlight]

Strain all of my frozen food of its packing fluids.

This I think was a big part of my algae problems with my past tank. I fed lots of frozen and it made a mess of the water.

[christyf5]

I run GFO, I change it out every 3 months or whenever I remember. I test (deltec) every month or so but I don't base my GFO changeout on the reading (its usually always the same or "acceptable). However lately I've had higher PO4 readings so I've been a bit quicker to change out my GFO. I also have been doing larger waterchanges lately so that may contribute to lower PO4 levels.

[wickedfrags]

I can honestly say I have never once tested for phosphate.

How would one know if they had a phosphate problem???

[whatcaneyedo]

Phosphate inhibits calcification and encourages problem algae growth. Both were problems for me which is why I began testing.

[wickedfrags]

so the visual indicator would be nuisance algae?

Phosphate inhibits calcification and encourages problem algae growth. Both were problems for me which is why I began testing.

[michika]

Yup, usually GHA.

[soapy]

Maybe you should have an option for algae scrubbers, although I suppose that could fall under macro-algae even though it is micro-algae?

I had an algae scrubber running, although I recently took it down due to a bunch of plumbing changes I made for the new fuge. I am growing macroalgae, (several kinds), and also have a bag of GFO in the sump. The macros will also serve as fish food.

[naesco]

When I started my new tank, I placed the live rock right out of the box into the tank as I am of the belief that by doing so you keep all of the live stuff like sponges, corals, inverts etc. on the rock and the critters that live in the rock.
The down side is an algae problem and high phosphate.
The sea hare dealt with the algae and with water changes and a Phosphate lowering product (in a small plastic bottle) that I bought from Ocean Aquatics, I was able to slowly lower the phosphate to acceptable levels.

[wickedfrags]

see how quickly I forget...I had that in the 90's before I bought my first RO unit

Yup, usually GHA.

[marie]

I don't do anything.

I have tested for phosphates in the past and run phosphate removers but I never noticed a difference in the test kit results when I did so nor did I notice a difference in the tank inhabitants... so I quit.

I'm pretty sure I have phosphates and nitrates out the waazoo but until my corals start screaming for help I won't do much about it :mrgreen:

[Oceanic]

Removed my remote DSB (PO4 binds to calcium carbonate).



More people should do this, DSB's are bad.

Just my 2 cents..

[marie]

More people should do this, DSB's are bad.

Just my 2 cents..


Dsb's are good

just my 2 cents...:razz:

[Oceanic]

dsb's are good

just my 2 cents...:razz:

lol

[Delphinus]

I'll share my own experiences and the reasoning for asking what others do.

I run a tiny little ball of chaeto in an aquaclear lit by 2x9w PC's. This is for a 115g cube so it probably really has a negligible effect on NO3/PO4 pulldown.

I've never been able to get a reading higher than the lowest category on a chemical based test kit. So for some this means "zero" and while others like the D-D/Merck it means "0 to 0.008" (which may as well be zero).

Don't have a lick of GHA in the display, although sometimes I will find some growing in the overflow eggcrate.

Most SPS I have exhibit very poor growth rates (or abnormal mortality rates). I was initially convinced this was due to phosphate but never having been able to establish a significant nonzero reading on any testkit (including the $300 Hanna colorimeter), I started reaching out to other explanations, including pathogens. The story of the last year though is that I am now starting to believe it's not pathogenic in nature ... so I'm coming home to the phosphate theory.

If I could establish that there is a difference made then I would gladly revert back to using GFO. And yet, when I ran GFO in the past, it never made a difference; nor did my brief (6 month) experiment with Zeo.

But so far it sounds like that for those who have noticed a difference with and without GFO, that the difference was enough to be profound, or at least, enough to actually notice a difference. So this is still confusing to me as to whether I may truly have a phosphate buildup or not.

Anyhow thanks all for the comments and thoughts. It is all very interesting to me.

[marie]

Tony, I am pretty sure I have relatively high phosphates...I have cyano and numerous pest algaes trying to poke their noses in where the fish can't reach them but my corals grow like mad,...it would take a lot to convince me your sps problems are because of phosphates

[nlreefguy]

I would also love to hear others' perspective on this. I had a similar problem with growth and survivability with SPS in my previous tanks, and now in my current tank my SPS are thriving and growing despite the fact that as far as I know, I'm not doing anything any differently than in my previous tanks. Still using GFO and carbon, same circulation pattern, exactly same lighting, same water source, etc. So I'm most interested too, Delphinus. Sorry about directing the thread away from the original intent, by the way.

[fishytime]

I run Rowaphos(gfo) in a reactor
Cheato in the fuge
never have tested for phosphate

Phosphate test kits are a waste of money IMO.

[untamed]

My experience is almost identical to yours, Tony....right down to using the colorimetre.

To Marie's point... If you measured for phosphate, I bet you would be surprised. I started testing phosphate and trying to reduce phosphate because I grow a lot of algae and cyano and I'm always told "to get rid of cyano, you have to reduce nitrate and phosphate".

So here's the rub: I've never been able to measure any significant nitrate or phosphate in my system using the best measuring equipment that can be reasonably purchased. So I'm told "that's because all the algae and cyano are using it up before you can measure it".

I run RowaPhos in a TLF and change it out about monthly. I have never been able to determine if that is an adequate schedule or not.

I've been VSV (vodka, sugar, vinegar) dosing for almost two months now and in spite of increasing dosage nothing significant has happened. (I still measure almost zero nitrate and phosphate). Well...my chaeto has basically died so I guess something has happened....but I still have a lot of cyano issues.

[marie]

....

So I'm told "that's because all the algae and cyano are using it up before you can measure it".

...

If that's the case then wouldn't the algae and cyano also be removing it before it can affect coral growth and therefore be a non issue?

[marie]

From my understanding, all living organisms uses phosphates to some degree and it follows any food you add to the system will have phosphates bound up in it (whether it's listed on the label or not).
The more animals and plants you have living and growing in your system, the more phosphates get taken out of the water column. Problems arise when there is too much phosphate getting bound up in the coral skeleton that's when it starts to affect tissue growth

....some phosphate good, too much very, very bad :lol:

[Lance]

My 90g has been running for 2 years and has a pretty large bio-load. I have never had noticeable PO4 or NO3 readings on either Salifert or Elos kits. SPS grows quite well in this tank and very seldom do I have issue with algae growth.
In the 225g tank however, SPS doesn't do crap. A few pieces do ok and others not so good. I am always having algae issues as well. P04 readings in this tank are undetectable and N03 are about 10 to 15.
Both tanks get 10% water changes bi-weekly, both have refugiums with DSB and large amounts of macro-algae. I have tried Tailored Aquatics Nitrate and Phosphate Destroyer; vodka dosing; and larger water changes on the 225g: with no positive results. SPS continue to struggle and algae growth has not been reduced.
The only difference I can see between the 2 tanks is the rock I used when setting up. The 90g was all live rock, while in the 225g I used a lot of BRS Eco-Rock. Perhaps there is a lot of phosphates bound up in this rock and continues to leach out. :noidea:

[intarsiabox]

[Quote]The only algae complaint I had with my tank was the film algae on the glass that would appear more frequent than I would like. I recently discovered that this was mostly due to the low southern sun blasting into my living room in the afternoon when I wasn't home and hitting the tank dead on! I've fixed that by closing the blinds[Quote]

I know the feeling, I know when the wife left the blinds open all day as I get a green mist on my glass. I asked her to leave the blinds closed and she told me to get rid of the tank. So we compromised and I clean my glass every day.:biggrin:

[BlueAbyss]

I've never been able to get a phosphate reading, even when I had a patch or two of cyano, when I went through my Bryopsis phase, etc. But my tank does go through an awful lot of calcium, more than I think should be needed for my coralline algae and single open brain coral :lol: I feed only drained mysis so the phosphate input is probably not too high, but I suspect it's being bound by the calcium before anybody else gets to it.

[Aquattro]

I've never tried to get a reading, it's not something I've ever been too concerned with. I assume using my zeovit reactor has an effect, as I have no algae at all. I stopped using the reactor for a while, and grew a few different types of algae, from cyano to wafer. Within weeks of using the reactor, the algae is almost gone. Good enough for me.

[lastlight]

I've tried to get my wife to leave blinds shut as well and she really dislikes that. I was at first concerned all the light hitting my empty tank may give rise to a harsh reflection here and there or maybe even a hazardous shine but I survived that phase in-tact.

With the tank running now I intend to shut them whenever she's not paying attention.

[Delphinus]

So it does sort of sort of sound like the consensus here is that even if there were phosphates in the water column, rarely are the test kits able to pick up on it. The difference being either by interference maybe that whole organic vs inorganic phosphate question, who knows.

FWIW I let the sun hit my tank as often as possible (really only possible in the winter though, the rays come in at the wrong angle from a few weeks outside of the equinoxes). The clams in particular, love that!

[Myka]

The "I have never had a PO4 reading" option is quite irrelevant because I doubt anyone who voted for that option used a D-D Merc kit or another high sensitivity kit. A "zero" on a Salifert or Elos kit is not actually zero, it is simply "undetectable" with those low sensitivity kits. Even if you got a "zero" on a D-D kit, it is highly unlikely that it really is zero, it is also "undetectable" with the D-D kit. PO4 can also be taken up by algae in such amounts that there is little left in the water column to test at any given time.

The more animals and plants you have living and growing in your system, the more phosphates get taken out of the water column.

Precisely. If there is more phosphate in the water column than the plants (both "good" and "bad") and animals can take up then it becomes a poison of sorts. We don't like nuisance algae and cyanobacteria so we try to lower phosphate to the level that our plants and animals can handle. We have many methods of lowering phosphate; GFO, carbon sourcing (VSV, Fauna Marin, Zeo, etc), and competitive elimination (chaeto).

Your test kit (any kit) will only read the amount of phosphate in the water column that exceeds the demands of all the organisms in the tank. If you have nuisance algae, cyanobacteria, and/or chaeto growing in your system this expresses the PO4 difference between the kit's reading and the demands of the "good" organisms in the system. If your test kit is "not detecting" phosphate, and you have nuisance algae you do have an excess of phosphate.

Nitrate also plays a role, but we are discussing phosphate here. The two are usually quite intertwined, and in most discussions aren't of significance to differentiate.

Personally, I gave up my GFO. GFO has never been in my new tank. So I voted:
"I run a ULNS" [Zeovit, just starting the nutrient lowering full system]
"I test PO4 frequently" [with Salifert it is "undetectable", and has been so since shortly after the tank finished cycling]

[Delphinus]

I used a D-D kit and a colorimeter and voted that option. :p

In your opinion what is the difference between "undetectable" and "not present at this level" ? To me "undetectable" simply means "present in levels below the threshold for the reading category". In the case of D-D/Merck, the lowest value is 0 to 0.008 (which is VERY low IMO - as in, less than 0.01 - no other test kit, including the colorimeters can read to that low of resolution). One thing about the D-D/Merck though is that it is not a linear scale.

[Myka]

Hey Tony, I added some more thoughts to my post before I saw your reply. I'm bad for editing, and re-editing, and editing some more adding more thoughts. :D

Imo, the difference between "undetectable" and "not present at this level" is that "undetectable" admits the test kits' accuracy may be (probably is) lacking where "not present at this level" suggests a positivity that we really can't confirm.