Bulk Head Question

[scar_11]

I am getting my tank drilled to put a Bulk head in. I found a bulkhead a TSC store and it is 1 1/4 hole, I was wondering if that is to small should I go with a larger hole. I am only planing on putting one in as a drain. It is drailing from a 90 to a 40 gallon sump.
What size does everyone suggest ?

[intarsiabox]

I assume that 1 1/4" is the ID of the bulkhead? The main purpose of a drain going from the display tank to a sump is just to transport water to a skimmer, refugium, etc., it is not used primarily for tank circulation. I believe the flow rate for 1 1/4" ID pipe is around 750gph and 1" ID pipe is about 600gph. So if you are using a skimmer in the sump you need to ensure that there is adequate flow to feed the skimmer with extra to divert to a refugium or what ever other items you plan on having in the sump. So one drain may be enough. Also remember to size your return pump accordingly, a little bigger is better IMO as you can always throttle the pump discharge down with a valve. Never valve off the intake of a pump.

[sphelps]

Go bigger, it's always better as you can reduce the pipe size with bushings if you want. Also use sch80 bulkheads which require bigger holes. I'd go with a 1.5" bulkhead which needs a 3" hole. If you'd prefer a 1.25" bulkhead then you'll need a 2.5" hole.

[fishytime]

Punch two holes for 1 1/2" bulkheads and do a "herbie"....you'll be glad you did.:wink:

[plutoniumJoe]

Punch two holes for 1 1/2" bulkheads and do a "herbie"....you'll be glad you did.:wink:
+1 on the extra hole. The second hole can be for a 1" or even 3/4" pipe that catches the overflow once your dial in the Herbie. Your serenity will thank you.

[mark]

go Herbie! (really)

[golf nut]

What was the cost of the floors that the tank sits on?

[fishytime]

What was the cost of the floors that the tank sits on?

:lol:

[scar_11]

sorry this maybe a Newbie question what is a Herbie:confused:

I don't know why I would want to put a volkswagen bug in my tank?

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=55036&highlight=herbie

[fishytime]

The Herbie system is the safest and quietest method of doing an overflow....its totally a gravity feed, no gurgling, no fiddling with vent hole sizes, no back pressure....it will cost you probably around $80(cost of the extra hole, a few plumbing parts and a gate valve) more to do a Herbie, but well worth the investment IME....the link in your last post has lots of good tips and info....if you have any other questions about it or need more detailed pics, just ask.

[sphelps]

There are also a few options with Herbie style overflows, I personally prefer to use a standpipe as the secondary drain as appose to a straight pipe. This will allow a little more freedom in adjustment and give more tolerance meaning you won't have to adjust the valve as often to keep the system quite. Here's a diagram I made a while ago to illustrate this:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/EngineeredAquariums/trimetricplumbing.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/EngineeredAquariums/trimetric.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/EngineeredAquariums/frontnoted.jpg

I would suggest you don't tee the two drains together at the sump as shown though, keep them separate for best results. You can also use a stock-man style standpipe rather than an HGB.

HTH

[scar_11]

The Herbie system is the safest and quietest method of doing an overflow....its totally a gravity feed, no gurgling, no fiddling with vent hole sizes, no back pressure....it will cost you probably around $80(cost of the extra hole, a few plumbing parts and a gate valve) more to do a Herbie, but well worth the investment IME....the link in your last post has lots of good tips and info....if you have any other questions about it or need more detailed pics, just ask.

Could I get a couple more detailed pictures?

Also do you have to drill the holes in the bottom of the tank to do the herbie system?

how do you make the pumbing stable ?

[mark]

In Reefjunkie's build (http://canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=45862), there some pictures of a Herbie with the bulkheads on the side.

[fishytime]

I see one problem with your drawing Sphelps(other than its far more complicated than it needs to be)....with the two drains merging into one, the only way to tell if something has clogged the primary drain is if you visually inspect it....if you run each individually, the primary is plumbed down below the water line of the sump(making it silent) and the emergency is plumbed just above the water line so you can hear it trickle if something has clogged the primary.

[Canadian]

I prefer the BeanAnimal overflow which is basically a Herbie with an extra hole/pipe:

http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

You can apply the same principles in the BeanAnimal for a bottom drilled tank or, as in my case, an external permanently mounted overflow box (not a siphon overflow).

[golf nut]

All of these systems ave a multitude of ways to doing them, you can actually do a Beananimal or herbie style through just one bulkhead if you have the tools to do it and the ability to figure it all out.

Pick which one you feel comfortable with, learn how it works first before you mess with it.

[sphelps]

I see one problem with your drawing Sphelps(other than its far more complicated than it needs to be)....with the two drains merging into one, the only way to tell if something has clogged the primary drain is if you visually inspect it....if you run each individually, the primary is plumbed down below the water line of the sump(making it silent) and the emergency is plumbed just above the water line so you can hear it trickle if something has clogged the primary.
Like I said you have options and there are many ways to do these types of overflows. However everything in there serves a purpose, for example:

The siphon tube takes water from the base of the overflow preventing too much build up which is common with overflow boxes and the hole breaks the siphon during a power cut or shut off which prevents the entire overflow box from draining.

The standpipe skims the surface water preventing surface scum from being trapped in the box. The standpipe also allows more tolerance, so if your flow changes slightly over time it won't effect the noise level. This is a really nice feature, less tinkering is always good especially if you're away for a while and have someone watching the tank. The last thing you want is to explain to someone how to adjust your drain to match your flow :confused: and you won't get the panic phone call becuase the tank is making crazy noises. The standpipe also allows you to use a ball valve instead of a gate valve which are easier to find and significantly cheaper.

The reduction in pipe size in the return also serves a very important role, it prevents a pressure drop which can in some cases cause oxygen to liberate from the water creating micro bubbles.

Other than that I don't see the complication, but we all see things differently and we should do things that make sense to us within reason. If one chooses to omit certain parts or do things completely different that's there choice. My intent was only to show an example of another alternative, like I said the drawing was made for someone else but works well as a visual add for other people. I personally wouldn't recommend a Herbie to someone just starting out becuase it is a more complicated system which is why I never mentioned it in the first place.

Also about the tee in the drain I already mentioned to omit that:
I would suggest you don't tee the two drains together at the sump as shown though, keep them separate for best results. You can also use a stock-man style standpipe rather than an HGB.

The reasoning however isn't related to what you said but rather to noise, if tee'd them together the noise from the primary will echo up the secondary creating a gurgling noise which will be hard to eliminate. I realized this after I made the drawing and didn't feel it was necessary to change it as I always note to omit that part when I post it.
If you did tee the lines together you would certainly be able to tell if the primary was clogged as you would clearly see more flow going though the standpipe which will also make a little more noise but at least it wouldn't sound like a toilet exploding :wink:

[Canadian]

All of these systems ave a multitude of ways to doing them, you can actually do a Beananimal or herbie style through just one bulkhead if you have the tools to do it and the ability to figure it all out.

Pick which one you feel comfortable with, learn how it works first before you mess with it.

Doing this through one bulkhead would be a bad idea. The reason for the redundancy is to avoid potential disaster. For example, my BeanAnimal overflow saved my a$$ the other day: I had several nassarius snails apparently climb into my overflow and die in the main siphon pipe. If I had one bulkhead and they managed to get lodged in the pipe somewhere at a point either just before the bulkhead (presumably where the network of siphons and emergency drains converge to enter a single bulkhead in your proposed one-bulkhead suggestion) or in the pipe on the other side of the bulkhead the redundancy of the extra overflows would have been moot and I would have had a wet floor.

[golf nut]

Doing this through one bulkhead would be a bad idea. The reason for the redundancy is to avoid potential disaster. For example, my BeanAnimal overflow saved my a$$ the other day: I had several nassarius snails apparently climb into my overflow and die in the main siphon pipe. If I had one bulkhead and they managed to get lodged in the pipe somewhere at a point either just before the bulkhead (presumably where the network of siphons and emergency drains converge to enter a single bulkhead in your proposed one-bulkhead suggestion) or in the pipe on the other side of the bulkhead the redundancy of the extra overflows would have been moot and I would have had a wet floor.

I think you have misunderstood exactly what I mean, I have no intention of running all the pipes into one drain, all feeds go independently to the sump, I think I know how to keep the floor dry, Beans super safe system was designed for precisely that reason, although a Herbie is good, the extra fail safe is enough to keep his marriage from coming to a wet end.

[Canadian]

I think you have misunderstood exactly what I mean, I have no intention of running all the pipes into one drain, all feeds go independently to the sump, I think I know how to keep the floor dry, Beans super safe system was designed for precisely that reason, although a Herbie is good, the extra fail safe is enough to keep his marriage from coming to a wet end.

Could you explain or, preferably, show a diagram displaying how you would plumb a BeanAnimal overflow with a single bulkhead? That certainly would have been easier to do when I was building my tank and external overflow.

[golf nut]

This is one of many permutations, it is not easy to build unless you have the proper equipment and have reasonably accurate flow factors. Size is dependent on return pump numbers, but typically most systems fit into a similar category.

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/7861/silentsafetube.jpg

Light blue is typical water level for siphon system.
Dark blue is open channel.
Red is safety

Accepting the fact that the diameter of the red pipe is adequate enough for capacity of the return pump.

[Canadian]

Ah I see how that would work. Certainly a compact and elegant solution. I don't know that many hobbyists would have the practical means to make that but it looks great in theory.

[golf nut]

It works in practice too, there are many variables when it comes to flow, calculations are somewhat reliable but need to be proven, that's my next project..

[sphelps]

This is one of many permutations, it is not easy to build unless you have the proper equipment and have reasonably accurate flow factors. Size is dependent on return pump numbers, but typically most systems fit into a similar category.

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/7861/silentsafetube.jpg

Light blue is typical water level for siphon system.
Dark blue is open channel.
Red is safety

Accepting the fact that the diameter of the red pipe is adequate enough for capacity of the return pump.
In the drawing you've provided Is there three drains in one? I've done this style of overflow before but only combined two drains into one:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/misc/Herbiinone.jpg
The tools required are minor and the only modification required is to the bushing which just needs the internal edge ground off so the 1.25" pipe can be slipped all the way through and glued in place.

Does your design differ from this one? As far as I remember this design was really only practical if a 2" bulkhead could be used. The 2" pipe combined with a 1.25" pipe match up almost perfectly if sch40 is used. This is because the area of the 1.25" pipe slightly smaller than the area of the 2" pipe minus the space taken up by the 1.25" pipe but the larger area has more friction resulting from more surface area. Therefore the primary cannot exceed the secondary in flow meaning your limitation is simply the 1.25" pipe and you can size your return to match that.

The one problem with this design is it simply isn't practical and makes very little sense to pursue it too far. The only time I have used this design is when I drilled a tank on site which had thick glass and drilling another hole would be more work and headache than introducing such a complicated design. In all other cases you're better off drilling a second hole. For example if you're planning a custom build adding the extra hole is minor and if you're not planning a custom build and you only have one drain hole chances are you won't be able to get a 2" bulkhead in there anyway.

I've also done another style of a single hole herbie, it was simply a single stockman stand pipe plumbed in the usual way. the difference was that at the base of the standpipe it could rotate within a couple, a large hole was drilled in the coupling and through the pipe of the standpipe so the two holes could line up. This would add a kind of gate valve to the standpipe itself and the idea was you would be able to adjust the valve so most of the water entered the lower part of the standpipe at full siphon and only a small amount went through the top. Now this of course didn't add the security of a second drain but simply made for a quieter standpipe.

[golf nut]

In the drawing you've provided Is there three drains in one? I've done this style of overflow before but only combined two drains into one:.

It can be three drains or two drains and one return, as I said initially it is one of hundreds of options.



The tools required are minor and the only modification required is to the bushing which just needs the internal edge ground off so the 1.25" pipe can be slipped all the way through and glued in place.

If you call minor tools a lathe and a mill then I agree,considering I had not planned on using sched 40 and that the tubes are engineered for flow then you do need proper tools

Does your design differ from this one? As far as I remember this design was really only practical if a 2" bulkhead could be used. The 2" pipe combined with a 1.25" pipe match up almost perfectly if sch40 is used. This is because the area of the 1.25" pipe slightly smaller than the area of the 2" pipe minus the space taken up by the 1.25" pipe but the larger area has more friction resulting from more surface area. Therefore the primary cannot exceed the secondary in flow meaning your limitation is simply the 1.25" pipe and you can size your return to match that.

If you would read before you typed you would see that I said to use proper flows and pipes accordingly

The one problem with this design is it simply isn't practical and makes very little sense to pursue it too far. The only time I have used this design is when I drilled a tank on site which had thick glass and drilling another hole would be more work

Practical means to do something that makes sense not because it was too much work.

In all other cases you're better off drilling a second hole. For example if you're planning a custom build adding the extra hole is minor and if you're not planning a custom build and you only have one drain hole chances are you won't be able to get a 2" bulkhead in there anyway.

Where can I not fit a 2" bulkhead?

I've also done another style of a single hole herbie, it was simply a single stockman stand pipe plumbed in the usual way. the difference was that at the base of the standpipe it could rotate within a couple, a large hole was drilled in the coupling and through the pipe of the standpipe so the two holes could line up. This would add a kind of gate valve to the standpipe itself and the idea was you would be able to adjust the valve so most of the water entered the lower part of the standpipe at full siphon and only a small amount went through the top. Now this of course didn't add the security of a second drain but simply made for a quieter standpipe.

The drawing shows that the siphon feed was reduced, don't waste money on a ball or gate valve simply install the correct size of restriction to control the siphon.
A typical silent, drain system in a 200 gallon tank takes up about 120 square inches and a ton of real estate and costs around $1000 I can do the same thing including a return and all the plumbing for a 1/4 of the cost and use up only 20 square inches,not using the method above but a different way .... now that's what I call practical.

[mr.wilson]

Limiting holes in glass is always a good thing. The tank will be stronger, and there is no need for expensive and time consuming tempering. Swiss cheese bottoms add $1,000.00 to a big custom tank if you include the drilling cost, tempering, thicker glass, extra valves and related plumbing. The liability of extra holes when it comes to leaks is another consideration.

I used to follow the trend of drilling holes everywhere including the eurobrace, but now I just run the return lines over the top and hide them with rock and or aragocrete. You add a bit of friction loss, but you save a small fortune and gain peace of mind when it comes to leaking and breakage.

There are some cases, such as island tanks that may require all of the plumbing to go through the bottom for aesthetic reasons. A two in one or three in one bulkhead would come in handy for these applications.