Amount of wattage?

[Wilty]

Since everyone has a different opinion, and we love to talk about lighting so much. What about lighting over a 130 Gal? Psssst not made of money lol.

I was planning (2) 250W MH with (4) 30w NO fluorences (cheap). But the more I read from everyone with successful tanks the more i think I may need more. That is 620w over a 130 gal. A 4.77 ration of Watts/Gal. Should I be thinking 400w???????? Should I also invest in sun glasses for my fish?

I want to get into clams and hard corals so .. I don't want to limit myself.

Once I'm further a long I will post construction pics of my tank. I'm built almost everything. I'm really pleased

[Aquattro]

How deep is the tank? If it's 24 inches, the 250w will be fine.

[Wilty]

oh gees sorry,

6'-0" lg x 18" wide x 24" high.

Just readin some people have smaller tanks with 400w MH . . . .

I got a price for a 1000w ballast I could do that. Apparently at 8'-0" away from the tank its equal to high noon in the tropics. lol haha

Do i need to worry about UV? time to look into UV filters?

[Aquattro]

The 250w will suit you fine. If you use mogul bulbs, you don't need to worry about UV. Double ended bulbs come ina pendant with UV filters.

[Aquattro]

Also, this is just basic advice. You need to determine what type/color bulb you want to use. A 250 Iwasaki is brighter than a 400w Radium. The options are endless, so you need to do some research on the selections available to you.

[Wilty]

This is all retro fit, I have built a capony using a single ended bulbs in mind. . . I may need to modify again . . .ugh I thought I was done the building stage lol
And since its all home built I won't have the UV filters.

[Wilty]

Oh gees, time to go searching through the threads lol Thought 250w was 250w and of course the different K rating.

[StirCrazy]

And since its all home built I won't have the UV filters.

don't need them with a single ended bulb.

Watts is a bad way to look at bulbs as there are several 250 watt bulbs out there that will put out more power than some 400 watt bulbs, and vise versa. you not only have to look at the bulb but also at the ballast that you are using with that bulb. there has been so much confusion in this area that many people are running good bulbs on ballast that were not designed for them so they are only realizing 50 to 80% of the full power the bulb was designed for. take the radium for example. on a normal north american 250 watt ballast it looked dim in my tank and barly put out more PAR than my old 175 watt 1000K bulb. but when hooked up to a 250 watt HQI ballast (replicates the power delivered by a european reactor ballast that we cannot use in North america) it was putting out only 5% less PAR than my AB bulb on the same ballast. so with the HQI ballast I got a increase of 170% in the amount of PAR delivered through 5" of air and 7" of water.

Steve

[Wilty]

GREAT! :confused: Clearly been taking the whole MH thing for granted.

While on the topic has anyone used a light spectimeter (spelling?) to measure the range and parimeters of the lights in their whole system combined?
I was going to borrow one from a friend at work but his son has it. Apparently very expensive when they are more high-tech then the little things we used in high school lol.

[StirCrazy]

I only have a PAR sensor as I couldent afford the 13000.00 for a spectral analizer last year :mrgreen:

Steve

[Buccaneer]

I only have a PAR sensor as I couldent afford the 13000.00 for a spectral analizer last year :mrgreen:

Steve

Hey Steve ... with a PAR sensor would you be able to tell when your bulbs need replacing ? ... how much was it and where did you get it ? TIA

Cheers

[StirCrazy]

Hey Steve ... with a PAR sensor would you be able to tell when your bulbs need replacing ? ... how much was it and where did you get it ? TIA

Cheers

yup, if you do monthly measurs of the bulbs you could tell how fast the intensity is droping off and chang acordingly.

it is a QUANTUM SENSOR (Model QSO-ELEC)

I got it from Apogee in the US for about 100 US plus shipping and duity and all that junk. then you also need a good digital multi meter to use it so that cost me another 150 CDN. I have spent more on testing equipment for lights than I have on my lights themselves :rolleyes:

if you want to read more about it here it is
http://www.apogee-inst.com/qso_spec.htm
maby you might get 10 Cowtown naitives to go in one it and then check everyones tanks. :mrgreen:

Steve

[Buccaneer]

Thanks for the response Steve ... do you know what the intensity level is of 6500K / 10000K bulbs at end of their usefull cycle ?

PS ... sorry to hijack your thread Wilty :biggrin:

Cheers

[StirCrazy]

hehe, thats for you to decide. if you ask 100 reefers how much of a drop is acceptable you will get 100 different answers and changing bulbs seams to be a personal preferance. the AB's I am using have been running for a year now with no visual indacations of needing to be changed (I need to measure them though to see how much they have dropped off)

one of the big problems with stating a fixed intensity for changing you bulbs is that from the factory there can be a 10%(or more) difference between new bulbs. so it is easyer to take a inital measurment and see how fast they drop off and set a % of drop off for your change.

Steve

[Delphinus]

the AB's I am using have been running for a year now with now visual indacations of needing to be changed

When you say "now" do you mean to say:
- after a year's use, "only now" there are visual indications (pardon me "indacations") that they need to be changed; or
- there are no visual indacations of needing to be changed, even after a year's use

If by "now" you mean "now" then I guess it's the first interpretation (pardon me, "interpratations") but if by "now" you mean "no" then it is the second interpatashun.

Have you looked into getting that darned keyboard of yours fixed yet? Or is the problem in my non-phonetic display? Stupid computers, always doing what they're told, not doing what we want.

[Wilty]

Dear oh Dear, Did we hit a soft spot? I dislike bashing someone for spelling since as soon as you do YOUR spelling and grammar comes into question :razz:

BTW I don't feel Hijacked this is just more of the same topic. As for different ballasts and European to American power. Of course you'll get more light using an European one, your over-driving the ballast 50hz ~ 60hz. Much like over-driving NO fluorences, they get brighter and half there life. I'm going to do some serious research into ballasts & MH of the same wattage and compare the outputs.

I was really hoping to buy an industrial grade ballast (from work) and stick a proper bulb in the socket. An industrial bulb will be 2700K or 4500K . . . Little low. lol

[Delphinus]

Not a soft spot it's just that I don't know what he means so I thought I'd better ask. I can make fun of him all I like because HE makes fun of ME all he likes.

If you have the serious questions or the serious research as you say Steve is the guy to bug because he has done all this research. Odds are pretty good any questions you come up with are ones he's already answered for himself.

As for the industrial grade ballast idea your idea is fine but it does get a little more involved than that. At the end of the day a ballast is a ballast it doesn't really mean anything to say "industrial" or .. um .. well whatever the opposite of "industrial" is. What you are concerned with is the ANSI designation, ie. for 400W is it M59 or is it M159 (I forget the numbers offhand so please forgive my transgression if I just listed a 250W instead of a 400W or something like that). Each bulb manufacturer has a recommended ballast to use so that's where you get that info from (the bulb you want to use). Then you want to look at the power tap. Can the ballast run on 110V? 220 or whatever. Last (and most confusingly) there is constant wattage autotransformer, or super lag something or other, linear reactors ... and I have absolutely no idea what that means. I think most "typical" ballasts are CWA (constant wattage autotransformer) types. I'm not sure one really needs to know what the difference is unless one really wants to geek out on it. Oh and then you want to look at something in the specs like "power crest factor" and I'll let Steve explain that one because I don't know about it. And last but not least if you are going to use a pulse start with a starter you want to check the "BTL" (ballast to lamp) distance because if you intend on remote mounting the ballasts this measurement needs to be taken into account. Many standard pulse-start starters offer a BTL of only 2 feet. If you want something larger (so the ballast isn't right in your hood) you need a long-distance ignitor/starter. (This is only for the pulse-start ballasts i.e. M137 M157 whatever). Probe-start ballasts (i.e. M59 M58 M57) do not use an ignitor.

[Wilty]

I'm going to have words with my co-worker, electrician by trade. When I said industrial grade I was meaning its ugly and a simple TAR ballast (non electronic). I did find this quote off the ICECAP website. I'm not sure if this is illegal to post but I kept the copyright on it.

IceCap has chosen to "overdrive" the metal halide bulb to generate more light. There are those who believe that the IceCap approach will shorten the usable life of a metal halide bulb, although IceCap argues that it does not. I have begun a long-term study that should answer the question in a few months. In the meantime, the hobbyist seeking maximum light will find that the IceCap produces more light. We will have to wait a few months to see whether there is any cost in longevity.

©Copyright, Aquarium Frontiers and Fancy Publications Inc. All rights reserved.

[Delphinus]

Ahhhh Ok yes and then there are electronic ballasts such as Icecap's. All my comments above were in regards to "cap and coil" aka "tar" type ballasts.

If I think I know next to nothing about cap-n-coil ballasts I know even less of electronic ballasts. Those are, I think, fairly specialized and although there are a number of manufacturers who are getting into electronic HID ballasts (Workhorse and Advance are I think working on a 175W version but I don't know if they are out to market yet). I have no idea how electronic ballasts will relate to ANSI designations.

I think you now have the sum total of all my knowledge on the topic! :mrgreen: Maybe Steve can now jump in and add some sanity (phonetic sanity, but sanity nonetheless). :razz:

[Wilty]

Oh my god, my brain hurts. Bouncing around looking at website after website. Heat aside what am I do be looking for in a ballast? whats most important? I think I should avoid the ballasts from work now and buy the ballast that matches the bulb at the store. But thats sooooo much more money. I can get a 250W ballast for 70 bucks.

[Delphinus]

Actually, it's not that bad, really. Step back for a second. What kind of bulb are you interested in running? Then figure out what ballast you're interested in. If money isn't an object, then get the nice ones. Price wise the electronics are the most expensive by far (probably about twice as much as anything else), then the pulse starts, and then the probe starts can be found for pretty cheap usually.

It's not like you can't run a bulb designed to run on a pulse-start ballast on a probe start ballast (I run 2 175W Ushios using M57 ballasts I paid $30 each for 4 years ago!) but it IS better to match bulbs to preferred ballasts. You might encounter problems with starting, or premature bulb aging, stuff like that. I suppose worst-case scenario the bulb won't light at all but I've not encountered that.

[Aquattro]

Have you decided on bulb type?

[Wilty]

Bulbs are made of glass right?
I was clearly working the under the assumption that any 250w ballast would run any 250w MH. I think that maybe I'll use the ballast I got from the back (ballasts run the lights in a welding shop) and trial and error to see if I can get bulbs to run on it. Returning the bulbs if they don't light up. I'm going to get the specs on the ballast I have, spoken with the manufacturer and I'll be able to compare against others.

Yet again, I thought a bulb was a bulb and the only difference was the K rating. oooo head hurting so much. oK, I need to do more research and this is a really hard topic to research, manufacturers all swear their's are best lol I know what I'm doing this weekend hahah

[Delphinus]

What kind of bulbs are they? What brand, kelvin, etc. ?

[Wilty]

OK! I understand now!!!!!

I was working backward since I can get the ballast cheap and I am hoping to match a bulb to the ballast. The ballast runs M59 I believe, off memory. I don't have bulbs yet, just ballasts and I haven't wired them yet. I may find I can't get bulbs for the ballast. I found out the bulbs the supplier sells with this ballast are 4700K Phillips. So. . . not so hot

I will see what the LFS has in the way of bulbs to give me an idea.

[Wilty]

I finally found what I was looking for. The ballast i have and the Iwasaki bulbs are the same M rating, therefore I'm good to go. Is there a lot of difference between bulb manufacturers? When making a 250W 6500K MH aren't you using the same gases?

oh wait, I know the answer will be no, and my head will hurt again hahahah I LOVE lighting lol

I woudn't worry so much if this isn't for my prize tank.

[Aquattro]

Some bulbs, say 400w, use M59. Other 400s use M135. Some prefer using the Son Agro. Iwasaki bulbs work best on a hybrid ballast (HPS). 250w bulbs can use the M58 or M80, depending on the bulb. Does your bulb have an internal ignitor? If not, you'll need a pulse start ballast. Or maybe you'll decide you need electronic. How's the head?

[StirCrazy]

oh now where do I start. Don't worry about Tony hacking on me it is all frendly banter... I hope :mrgreen:

anyways the best way to go about it is to pick your bulb or style of bulb then match it to a proper ballast.

you part about a european ballast overdriving a bulb is wrong. a euopen ballast will operate a europen bulb properly. bulb like AB, BLV, Ushio and a couple other fall into this catagory. while some of these bulbs have been modifyed with the addition of starter probes in the bulbs, to facilitate starting with non starter equiped ballast, they still operate more corectly on a ballast that closely matches the voltage, current ect specs of the proper ballast. as it sits right now the 250 watt HQI is a proper match for europen bulbs but in the 400 watt arena there is not a proper match to my knowlage as of yet. there for some have chosen to use a son agro style ballast to slightly overdrive the 400 watt bulb which replicats the same output as using a euoropean ballast.

head hurt yet? :mrgreen:

you can ask your friend about it but what I have found is most lighting contractors in north america know nothing about euro type ballast or how they run.. except to say "they won't work here" or "you want a what ballast" I have been luckey and found a lighing dealer that would actualy listen to me for more than 5 minuits with out trying to just be polite befor they tell me to hit the skids. after a couple days I finaly got it throught to him as to what I was looking for and why and bam he found me what I wanted.

any questions just ask away and I will do my best to answer, I think lighting has become the passion of this hobby for me and not nessasarly by choice but now I have growen to love it and I even catch my self reading stuff laitly that would put most people to sleep :mrgreen: if only I had more money I could set up a test facility....

Tony that was suposed to be No visual sign of needing to be changed yet, I fixed that. :redface:

Steve

[Delphinus]

Clearly it's the keyboard's fault, really ... :wink: That or like I said it's my monitor. One or the other .... either way I'm sure we can pin the blame on technology .. :lol:

[Wilty]

I like how the head thing has caught on. lol

I'm home so I could look at the ballasts. I'll give you the run down of what has happened and you'll understand why I'm going about this ass backward. I bought 175w ballasts with bulbs cheap from work. The bulbs just kinda came with the pkg. The bulbs are no good for the tank being 4700K So I have ballasts I am hoping to use. BUT NOW! I'm home and the numbers on the ballast mean something. They will run M59 Bulbs, So I think I'm going to run with 175w MH above the tank for now at least maybe in a year upgrade to 250w (I know 175 is low) But I have the ballasts and they can't go back. So now I need to find 175w 6500K M59 Bulbs.

IF I can't find M59 175W bulbs, I can buy 250W M58 ballasts from work. And I saw those bulbs just today (Iwasaki)

[StirCrazy]

175 watt bulbs re limited in what selection you will fine. 175 watt 10000K Ushios are probably a more commen 175 watt bulb that is used.

Steve

[Wilty]

Ok, I've decided to just say screw it. I want to be able to do more with my tank so I'm going to just do it right now. I'm going to go buy 400W MH bulbs tonight from the LFS and figure out the ballast after.

So new question What brand is everyone favorite?

[Aquattro]

So new question What brand is everyone favorite?

The favorite for growth is the Iwasaki, cause it's so bright (but yellow). The Radiums are the favorite for color, unless your favorite for color is the Ushio 10k. The AB 10k is a bit more blue, so it might be the favorite. Oh wait, does the 14k blueline come in 400w? Maybe that's the favorite! Oh, the bulb color and life expectancy changes with the balast chosen, so what is your favorite reef color? Hope you got enough money left for extra tylenol :razz:

[Wilty]

Well i think me changing my mind will give everyone a headache. I saw 10k Ushio 250W bulbs and now I think I'm going to go with those. I didn't see an "M" rating on them though?????

[Aquattro]

I believe M58 run those, although the M80 might be a better choice. Stircrazy can tell you for sure when he pops in here.

[StirCrazy]

M58 will run them, but if you can spend the extra 50.00/ballast get the Ansi M80 ballast. (carfull when you order a M80 as they will tell you they are not made and a bunch of stuff depending whare you go. usaqly they will take about 2 weeks to get in and make sure it is the one made by advance)

Steve

[Delphinus]

Officially the M58 is the preferred ballast (see www.ushio.com) for the Ushio 250W/10K but I've heard that people find better results on the pulse-starts ... which is .. um ... M158? Not sure offhand but yes yet another ANSI "M" designation. Although the M80 might still be the best bet since as Steve mentioned it's the closest to Euro specs.

If you REALLY want your head to hurt, surf on over to www.advancetransformer.com and read up the specs on all their HID ballasts. If you start to get the run-around from lighting suppliers (I don't know why they do this but they all do it) it is sometimes helpful to tell them "look the part # of the ballast I need is 'Advance blahblahblahblah' so please look that up" and then they can't tell you anymore that the ballast doesn't exist, they have to come up with a more creative excuse not to sell it to you.

[Wilty]

Ok good call. I bought the bulbs. Monday I will speak for my elec. and see what he can order. Meanwhile I will research the ballast types. I doubt I will get a brand name like advance. So i may default to an M58

[StirCrazy]

Ok good call. I bought the bulbs. Monday I will speak for my elec. and see what he can order. Meanwhile I will research the ballast types. I doubt I will get a brand name like advance. So i may default to an M58

um M58 is the ansi designation, every ballast company makes a M58. in that style the difference between bying a advance and a venture or what ever would be about 10 bucks probably.. I would get the advance M58 as they are a higher quality ballast.

Steve

[Buccaneer]

Here is a post from over at RC that sums up MH ballast/bulb combinations ...

Originally posted by electric130
I have seen countless lighting threads asking what each MH ballast is or what bulbs work on it. I orginally posted this in another forum to answer another member's question. I thought it was best posted here. If there's anything I missed, or have incorrect, please let me know.

250w example:

Probe start: ANSI: M58, core, capacitor
Pulse start: ANSI: M138, core, capacitor, ignitor
HQI: ANSI: M80, core, capacitor, ignitor
EYE: ANSI: H37, core, capacitor, actually a mercury vapor ballast
Electronic: ANSI: none, metal box with wires

probe start will run american bulbs with ignitors built into the bulbs like coralife and venture bulbs. some german and euro bulbs will run fine on these, but without an ignitor, the bulb struggles to light and bulb life may be decreased. also reliabilty goes down.

pulse start will run the german/euro bulbs (ushio, AB, radium, etc.) these bulbs don't have built in ignitors, so the ballast has the ignitor wired into the circuit. the ignitor provides the high voltages needed to fire the bulb. you can run probe start bulbs on these ballasts, but the two ignitors may try to fight each other and possibly cause a fire.

HQI ballasts are similar to pulse starts in their wiring and ability to run bulbs. the output is a little higher which is meant to run the double-ended bulbs (commonly called HQI bulbs). people run mogul bulbs on these and they run a little hotter and brighter because they are being overdriven. this in turn shortens the life of the bulbs.

EYE ballasts are mercury vapor ballasts. they are similar to a probe start ballast, but the only bulb you can run on these are Iwasaki 6500K bulbs (because these are actually MV bulbs, not MH bulbs like most think). the ballast will damage MH bulbs if you try to run one on it.

Electronic. ahhh, the great electronics. these will run any bulb at the rated wattage: probe start, pulse start, iwasakis, DE (double ended-HQI). if you think you might change your mind in the future, get an electronic. you can change bulbs to whatever you want and not have to worry about the ballast being the wrong type. electronics run cooler (a magnetic MH ballast will burn your hand if you touch the coil after it's been running for awhile). they also use less energy.

Additional info:

175watt:
Probe start: ANSI: M57, core, capacitor
Pulse start: ANSI: M137, core, capacitor, ignitor
Electronic: ANSI: none, metal box with wires

400watt:
Probe start: ANSI: M59, core, capacitor
Pulse start: ANSI: M135, core, capacitor, ignitor
HQI: ANSI: SON AGRO, core, capacitor, ignitor (this is actually a 430w HPS ballast used primarily in hydroponics)
EYE: ANSI: H33, core, capacitor, actually a mercury vapor ballast
Electronic: ANSI: none, metal box with wires

[StirCrazy]

there is some false info in that being that a 250 watt HQI ballast does not overdrive a bulb.

Also the part about two ignightors will fight each other and start a fire is totaly false.

Steve

[Wilty]

I'm thinking I'll bite the bullet and get an electronic ballast, well its just the shear cost difference. I haven't had a chance to research the bulbs I bought so I still need to work out what type of ballast I need.