Question for electricians

[Delphinus]

Is it a no-no to use 14 gauge stranded wire for the purpose of wiring plugs and/or switches? Ie., does it have to be 14 gauge solid? ... Or is all that matters about the wire is that it be 14 gauge?

thanks!

[banditpowdercoat]

The purpose of stranded is Flexibility. It is more expensive than solid, thats why solid is used in home wiring. In the industrial setting, I allways use stranded wire of some form. Just remember, you need a Sta-Kon, preferably the fork style to affix the wire to the duplex receptical. the stranded does not stay under the screw that well and could come out, causing a short. Heres a pic, although, for 14AWG, you will want blue colored ones. Yellow is for 12AWG, and red is for 18-16AWG

http://www.drillspot.com/pimages/265/26520_300.jpg

Now, the extension cord ends, they are made for stranded. The screw has a metal piece with it, that acctually clamps the wire, so no need to worry about the Sta-Kon's with cord ends.

[KrazyKuch]

Yeah What Dan Said!!!!

[Delphinus]

Ok .. cool. So code doesn't say I *have* to use solid?

Here's the problem. I wired my tank room circuits (well, I'm not done it all yet). The breaker to the boxes is 14AWG solid. But from box to box (it first goes to a GFCI in the first box, then it goes on to the downstream plugs using some 14AWG stranded I happened to have. I was done 3 out of the 4 circuits I had planned before the question came to me.

So, I guess what I'm saying is ... I might kind of already used the stranded. Now, going back and putting on blue Sta-Kon's isn't a problem (thanks for that tip BTW), but, the wire itself has "300V" printed on the insulation.

What would be the determination that the wire CAN'T be used at all for the box to box wiring? Is there anything, besides the Sta-Kon, that an inspector might take a look at and say "You can't use that, redo it" ?

I was talking to another electrician friend of mine and he told me code says 12 gauge and that I have to use solid all the way. Is this true? I kind of hope not because I used 15A breakers and 14AWG solid. If I HAVE to go to 12 and 20 it means I have to buy all new wire and all new breakers.

I was pretty sure none of the circuits in my house are 20A breakers, but I'll double check to be sure.

Is my friend correct though about 12 gauge??

Also I was reading on an electrical discussion forum and it came up that each outlet counts as one amp. Is THIS correct too? In that case, how do we run things that are more than one amp?? A single 400W lamp for example would be, what, 3.5 amps or thereabouts? A pump might well be more than 1 amp, no ??

Or is that just a case of averaging and predicting what a total draw on a circuit might be? Ie.,15amps at the breaker with a 80% max load equates to a max of 12 outlets? But each outlet itself may be allowed to use more than 0.8A ???

[StirCrazy]

personally I would take the stranded out and use solid, less problems. Stranded wire had the capability to be more affected by oxidation than solid, so for long term installs solid is better. Over the years I have replaced tones of stranded wires due to voltage drop from corrosion, I have never replaced a solid wire for any reason other than mechanical damage. and since you are building it in a fish room which is going to be high moisture...

Steve

[banditpowdercoat]

You will be fine. Nothing in code with Stranded over solid. Stranded acctually has more ampacity, due to the skin effect that electricity follows. Also, theres nothing wrong using larger wire than necessary. ie, 12ga on a 15A circuit. BUT, you can not go the other way. You cant use a 20A breaker on 14ga wire. Also, breakers are only rated for 80% continuous ampacity. Meaning, a 15A breaker can acctually only handle 12A of continuous current before it trips. On a current spike, it will trip at 15A. And yes, each outlet, or light socket counts as 1 amp. You can only wire 12 outlets or lights, or any combination thereof on a 15A circuit. Your correct on the averaging thing. but each plug can handle 15 amps, just not all at the same time

[StirCrazy]

I was talking to another electrician friend of mine and he told me code says 12 Gage and that I have to use solid all the way. Is this true? I kind of hope not because I used 15A breakers and 14AWG solid. If I HAVE to go to 12 and 20 it means I have to buy all new wire and all new breakers.

I was pretty sure none of the circuits in my house are 20A breakers, but I'll double check to be sure.

Is my friend correct though about 12 gauge??

Also I was reading on an electrical discussion forum and it came up that each outlet counts as one amp. Is THIS correct too? In that case, how do we run things that are more than one amp?? A single 400W lamp for example would be, what, 3.5 amps or thereabouts? A pump might well be more than 1 amp, no ??

Or is that just a case of averaging and predicting what a total draw on a circuit might be? Ie.,amps at the breaker with a 80% max load equates to a max of 12 outlets? But each outlet itself may be allowed to use more than 0.8A ???

14 gage solid is for 15amp, 12 is for 20 amp, but this is for solid core. a lot of places make you go to a lower gage when using stranded on longer runs. Outlets don't count as one amp you have to actually look at the purpose. there is actually a max number of outlets you can run on a breaker my book is still packed so I can't tell you exactly what it is though

**** I just did some reading that some juristictions require a min of 12 gage even for 15 amp, and it looks like Cow town might be one of them.. so that is something I would definatly check into***********

if you are doing your fish room figure out what exactly you are putting in for wattage requirements then split them up so each breaker is loaded no more than 1200 watts. what I did was put my two MH on different breakers and had one pump on each breaker, then I had another breaker for other pumps and heaters. each one was GFI protected separately. also remember you may have a problem if you are getting this inspected as outlets and switches have to be a minimum of 4 feet from water(might be off on the distance, but it is something like that) and I have heard one guy say the inspector wanted him to use outdoor fixtures due to the environment it was in. If you are getting it inspected, I would go to the city hall and say you are thinking about building a fish tank utility room and ask if there is anything special you should be aware of in regards to the code, also ask him about the stranded vs solid, cuz he is the one that signs off on it. the problem with not getting it inspected is if you have a fire starting in the fish room you will have no insurance, where if it is inspected even if it was started by the electrical stuff they have to cover you as it was to code.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

And yes, each outlet, or light socket counts as 1 amp. You can only wire 12 outlets or lights, or any combination thereof on a 15A circuit. Your correct on the averaging thing. but each plug can handle 15 amps, just not all at the same time

thats a little misleading, that is asuming normal household lamps. for this case he needs to figure out what he is putting on the circut to size them properly.. would be more akin to running and industreal circut for a work shop that will have a few high amp loads. at anyrate figure out what you need than throw in a couple extra outlets.

[banditpowdercoat]

thats a little misleading, that is asuming normal household lamps. for this case he needs to figure out what he is putting on the circut to size them properly.. would be more akin to running and industreal circut for a work shop that will have a few high amp loads. at anyrate figure out what you need than throw in a couple extra outlets.


Whenever I wired up a new home installation, you don't know what lamp, or whats going to be used on what plug. The generalization of 12 total items per 15 amp breaker is norm. And, in reality, you usually have far less than that on each circuit anyways. Like even 2 bedrooms on one circuit, 6 plugs and 2 lights?? thats what I was trying to convey. This can also hold true in a fish room. Because what loads you have now, may not be the loads you have in the future. As long as you don't exceed the maximum 12 for 15a breaker, you should be fine with any inspector

[Delphinus]

Ugh, I was afraid of this. Steve, did you find the info online somewhere about the 12 gage in Calgary? If so can you point me to the URL. I did some google searches at the time I posted this question but didn't find much. I looked up at Chapters for code books but they all look like national things not regional things and .. well they're all in the $120 and up price category to boot.

I might just have to do as you say, pay city hall a visit and go from there.

Sigh ... this will be the 3rd or 4th time I've ripped the electrical boxes out of the framing. The first few times were more just vanity, I didn't like how I did them in the end. Now I finally have a setup I like and it only now occurs to me that what I was doing might be stretching it.

I think not inspecting it is not an option for the tank room. The basement was never developed when I moved in and had no power down there except for the pullstring lights so I had a buddy (who was apprentencing at the time) do two temporary circuits for the tanks. I just took those temporary circuits out, 4.5 years later. I found something really disturbing when I took them out:

.. ok never mind I can't seem to find a #@$#@$#!!! USB cable anywhere in the house. Why can't digital camera's be wireless ?! There's easily 4 or 5 of them but not a one to be found. So I can't take a picture of my GFCI at the moment. Anyhow, one of my GFCI receptacles had melted, the white wire was fused in place and the insulation of the wire itself had charred black. This is was servicing my tank until Wednesday !!! I have no idea how long it had been like that. But, clearly, not good. So I definitely need things to be done right this time and I was thinking that, yeah, just for preventing things like that, I should get the permit and the inspection done.

BTW I hate the way the word "Gauge" is spelled. I totally agree it should be spelled Gage. "Gauge" looks like it should be pronounced "gog".

Man I wish I could just pay someone to take over this tank build. Financially it's just not an option. I guess it's, um, "interesting" to learn all this new stuff and it's a challenge and blah blah blah it will all work out in the end blah blah blah personal growth grumble grumble comfort zone blah blah challenge yackity yack yay.

[StirCrazy]

um.. did you draw a home owners permit befor you started? If you didn't don't tell them you have started already. I know when I did my last one they wanted to inspect after the rough in then on compleation. I know I had to take a real rudamentry drawing showing what I was going to do. but that wasn`t a fishroom.

12 gauge isn't that expensive anyways, I just got 100 feet for 45 bucks at HD so I can get my damn air compressor wired up so I can start building crap in my new shop. Its amazing how much you miss your compressed air when it isn't working :mrgreen:

this is the basic book you want for your own info and to show you the AB rules
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/Electrical-Code-Simplified-Alberta-Residential-P-s-Knight/9780920312339-item.html

ok I found it, you can use 14 in cowtown. here is everything you need to know about homeowners permits and has a bunch of how to stuff in it allso.

http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU/dba/brochures/homeowner_permits_and_electrical_wiring_guide.pdf

Steve

[Delphinus]

Man am I losing it. I haven't used a USB cable in years to download photos off the camera. :redface: I don't know why I totally forgot about the card reader. Man this crap is making me lose my mind!!!!

Anyhow, this is what I found this week on the temporary circuits:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn239/delphinus_photos/PA030184.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn239/delphinus_photos/PA030185.jpg

Anyhow, I'm NOT happy about this. Faulty GFCI? More likely, faulty wiring or overloaded. It's making me re-evaluate everything. I thought when I went to buy the copper that I had priced out 12 guage .. I forget why now but I remember being shocked at the cost differential between what I wanted to do with 12 gauge and what 14 gauge cost me in the end. Was it the breakers maybe? Maybe it was the breakers. I remember feeling it was a HUGE difference and I thought, well, 2 circuits at 14AWG worked fine for so many years, why woudln't it work again especially if I double up? (I have 4 circuits coming in the fish room whereas before I made do with two).

Now this is causing me to really re-evaluate. I guess if the answer is start over then the answer is start over. It's just so darned frustrating. This is the slowest build in the world as it is anyhow. It's like everything I do along the way, I regret how it ends up and I end up redoing it. I rebuilt the stand 3 times, I redid the framing a few times, I ended up puncturing the pipes at one point and had to fix that, I ended up putting in my pressure regulator backwards so I had to redo that, the overhead light fixture didn't fit with the HRV ducts and had to be redesigned, the overhead fixtures squeek when someone walks in the living room so they have to be redone ... if it weren't me I would find this pretty damn funny. All I want is a tank, a nice reef tank! Why does it have to be like this !!! It's unreal, just unreal. :(

[Delphinus]

Does code allow you to install 15A receptacles on a 20A circuit? The 20A plugs all have the one prong as a "T".

I can see the argument for ripping out the 14AWG wire and putting in 12AWG instead but the cost of all the incidentals: the breakers, the plugs, the GFCI that would have to replaced with their 20A counterparts (and then I'm sitting on all these 15A components that I can't return anymore to boot) alone makes the swap out proposition cost well into the hundreds of dollars. I have 4 circuits planned each with a GFCI then a 4-gang box with the plugs (although one plug is a duplex with a shutoff switch). I really want to find a way I can make this tank room workable but using 15A breakers and 14AWG.

[StirCrazy]

is that solid or stranded going into that?

I like and hate back stabs, they are good if you use the ones you have to physicly tighten, but bad if they are normal ones that seem to get loose over time.

Steve

[Delphinus]

It was solid, and it was the kind you have to tighten. The wire is physically melted into the backing, I can't pull it out for anything. I honestly don't know why it did this. I'm thinking I must have overloaded the circuit but even still, I've reduced what I have for tanks in the last year by a LOT and the box was still physically hot to the touch lately. .. I've been wanting to "decommission" these "temporary" circuits for a while. I'm glad it's off, I had no idea it was THIS bad inside of the box..

[banditpowdercoat]

WOW, that plug's toast. If the connection got corroded, it makes it worse. The corroded connection will heat up just like that, even if the circuit isnt overloaded.

[KrazyKuch]

Tony You are allowed to use 14 gauge in Calgary......If you use a 20Amp breaker you have to use 12guage wire with 20amp recepticles, can't use 15amp......I would just stay with the 15 amp breaker and 15 amp recepticles!!!

[KrazyKuch]

Hey tony if you want I can come finish your electrical....I am working 2 blocks away from your house

[StirCrazy]

Hey tony if you want I can come finish your electrical....I am working 2 blocks away from your house

Tony, this sounds like the best way :mrgreen:

Krazykuch, wanna come to kamloops for a weekend and fix mine LOL I think I have to put a bigger panel in and pull two new circits but I have to figure out what the hell they did first :neutral:

Steve

[banditpowdercoat]

Tony, this sounds like the best way :mrgreen:

Krazykuch, wanna come to kamloops for a weekend and fix mine LOL I think I have to put a bigger panel in and pull two new circits but I have to figure out what the hell they did first :neutral:

Steve


I'm unemployed come Wed, (mine shutting down) Im sure I;ll be down your way soon :D if you want help.

[StirCrazy]

I'm unemployed come Wed, (mine shutting down) Im sure I;ll be down your way soon :D if you want help.

its probably going to take me a month to trace they way they wired... I know there are two double taps (which are leagle as there is one on each side, but I want to get rid of thoes) and the double taps could be the whole problem but I won't know exactly what needs to be done till I map the whole frigging place :sad: but got tother thing that are getting done first, new furnace and HW heater going in wensday, concreat grinder should be here mon or tuesday to take the high spots down in my famly room so I can install the flooring and build the famly room.

Steve

[banditpowdercoat]

I'll have to stop by anyways, introduce myself and have a look :D

[StirCrazy]

I'll have to stop by anyways, introduce myself and have a look :D

sure shoot me a msg when your comming.

Steve

[Binare]

Tony, what kind of 14 stranded did you get? Its not that each outlet is rated at 1amp so your allowed 12 outlets. Your allowed to have a maximum 12 devices on a 'general use' 15a circuit, that's lights AND plugs. Has nothing to do with the 80 percent load, you can buy breakers that are rated for 100 percent and your still only allowed 12 devices. 14g is perfectly acceptacle. Your friend that told you it wasn't, is probably a commercial electrician. They tend to not carry 14g in the vans and just carry 12g, it saves another 4 rolls of wire to carry around. Don't use the quick connects on plugs... Ever. They make good contact and is not surprising when you see a plug burnt up. Wrap the wire round the screw. Remember too that advice from bc may or not apply to alberta, and vice versa.