New to Canreef...

[ryan_p]

Hey everyone, very cool site...

I have some questions as a newbie and am unsure which forum to post them in. sorry if this is the wrong one. Anyways...I just bought a 46 G from J&L and some accessories...I still have a few more things to get before I can start cycling. I need a couple of questions answered before I get too ahead of myself. First off, is a GFCI outlet neccesary? Or will a surge protected power bar be fine to start? I worry about the GFCI breaking when I'm gone and wipping out the tank with the power loss. We are in a basement suite and the wiring isn't seperated to the upstairs suite so our breaker has been known to cut off with alot of activity from the "lovely" neighbours upstairs. Any suggestions? Second question, if I don't start with a wavemaker (I'll get one for x-mas maybe) should I leave my PH's on 24/7 or put them on a timer? Last question, for now anyway, what kinda timer is recommended for my lighting unit?

Sorry to make this so long....but a guys gotta ask his questions right?

[Jack]

Hey,

Welcome to Canreef. There are lots of helpful people on the board as well as you can search through old topics and threads.

About the GFCI though, I don't use them basically for the reason you stated. I don't want it tripping and wiping out my tank. I'm sure there will be other suggestions or comments on that one.

Wavemakers are great accesories but are by no means neccisary. Put the money into something more important first... then buy the fun toys. Also, leaving your powerheads on 24/7 is good. The reef needs lots of circulation to remove wastes and deliver oxygen ect to your inhabitants.

I would go with digital timers. They are more expensive but its a one time buy and worth the investment. Maybe 20-40$ each?

No worries about the questions. I'm still learning and look 700 posts.. most of which are questions. :smile:
Good luck.

[mario]

Hi
Welcome to Canreef, I agree with Jack, I myself use only powerbars for my tanks. I also leave my powerheads run 24/7. You would be better off investing your money into lighting, depending what you plan to keep. :microwav:

[naesco]

And the best advice is to get all your advice from this board. Listen to the LFS but do not buy before you consult with members of this Board.
The LFS is in business to sell stuff to you period. We are in business to help eachother. Welcome :biggrin:

[Biotech]

I separate my equipments into 2 separate GCFI extensions. For example, GCFI unit #1 has my return pump and one of my heaters plugged in; GFCI unit#2 houses my powerheads, the other heater and light.

[kari]

I'm a little electrically handicaped but figure GFI's serve a purpose and recommend using them for your safety. If your breakers or GFI's trigger, thats because something is not right. Overloaded or whatever. The typical reef tank can draw a lot of juice and combine that with other goods on the same circuit ??.
I don't want say much due to my ignorance other than ask one of electrically enlightened people. There's a bunch on the board that I know of so far.
GFI's don't malfuction typically, do they :question: You guys are wigging me out now.

kari

[kari]

Safety 1st, fish tank next.

[Quinn]

I don't know anything about electrical either, but from what I understand, in order to have GFCI's where if one device turns off, the rest won't, you'd have to have seperate circuits for each device. This means I'd have sixteen circuits at least for my tank. That's just crazy, it was hard enough wiring up two extras. I don't think my fuse box could support it. I've never heard of anyone dying in aquarium electrical accidents. I think the occasion shock is to be expected regardless of whether you have GFCI's or not.

[ryan_p]

Wow... Thanks for all the advice!! If I do install a GFCI, will one outlet be enough? I will have 2 PH's, 2 seperate lights, heater, and skimmer... a grand total of 6 outlets I will need. Am I forgetting something? I would just use a power bar plugged into the GFCI. I am also planning to buy a grounding probe for in the tank. Do they help for safety?

[Chad]

I look at GFI's in another way..

1) I use it and I live and my tank dies (which can be replaced) :biggrin:

2) I don't use it and I die and I cannot be replaced.. :frown:


Just my two cents..


Chad

[sumpfinfishe]

Welcome to the board Ryan :mrgreen:
You will find lot's of friendly,great advice here at Canreef and all the reefers that I have met through this board are a great bunch of people too :exclaim:

cheers, Rich

[Biotech]

Hi Ryan:
Each GFCI is rated for 15amp - enough to hook a few pieces of equipment to it with a powerbar. Separate the equip so that in case there is a trip with one of the circuits, equipment plugged in the other circuit will still provide your main tank with water circulation and heat.
For example:
GFCI #1 - one of your light units, one of the heaters, skimmer and return pump.
GFCI#2 - the other light unit, heater#2, powerheads

So if GFCI#1 trips when you are not at home - your tank will still have some circulation from the powerheads until you come home. Vice versa, if GFCI#2 trips, the return pump will provide the circulation.

If you are not comfortable to replace the original circuit with a GFCI unit, you can get a GFCI extension cord. Revy/Rona has one for about $45 -rated 15A/1800W.

Hope this helps

[Delphinus]

Do not concern yourself with "what happens when I'm not home and my GFCI trips". I used this logic for years as an excuse to not install GFCI, but in the end, I too conceded the logic is faulty. Here is why:

1. A reef tank can survive flatlined for longer than you think. A few hours isn't going to wipe out your reef. Just two months ago, I had turned off one tank to do some maintenance, left the lights on but all underwater devices were shutoff .... got distracted, then ended up doing something else, then went out to run some errands. Three hours later, I remembered that I had neglected to turn my tank back on. My anemone looked a little peeved that the current was gone for so long, but I turned the tank back on and everything was fine in the end. The anemone in question is my 24" ritteri -- one of the hardest anemones to keep in captivity. So don't sweat a few hours. You're not gone from your tank for so long that it can't suffer a little bit until you're back home.

(Of course, I should probably qualify this claim with something like "within reason." A couple of hours is OK but certainly it does depend on what kind of animals you keep, and certainly the longer it goes flatlined the worse it will get, case in point this blackout situation in the east.)

2. Aha, you say, but what about the times I go on vacation for a week or two? Aha, one can say back ... you still have to have someone check on your tank periodically, if for nothing else to feed things, also to check for floods or whatnot or whatever. If you have household or tenants insurance, BTW, you HAVE to have someone check on your place every 24 or 48 hours anyways, otherwise your insurance may be voided in case of a burglary. So ... again, it's not like the reef runs unattended.

3. A GFCI isn't really going to be tripping willy-nilly anyways. If it is, it means something is wrong. Find the problem, and correct it. If everything is fine, the GFCI isn't going to trip anyways.

4. Trust me, submerging your hand into saltwater that is live with 110V hurts. A lot. You will be happy to have something to "stop the pain" in the event you actually cannot pull your hand back. I used to think "oh, well if I feel a shock I'll pull out quick enough." It's amazing how inaccurate that really is. If you just plunge your hand in, to resuce a knowcked over coral or whatnot, how far you can get in the few milliseconds it takes before your brain realizes there is a problem. I've also read horror stories about people being partially paralyzed and unable to pull their arm out.

So I agree with the folks above. You can mourn the loss of your reeftank in the event of an (unlikely) absolute total-worst-case scenario. Or, ... your friends and family could be mourning YOU. And people will be asking how safe it is to have reef tanks in their homes and if children are involved and etc. etc. etc., that is a place we do not want to be going.

That said, it took me FIVE YEARS to get off my duff and put my tanks on GFCI. But don't do as I do, I have to learn everything the hard way. I had to learn by feeling what 110V feels like .... and incidentally, learning what it is like having my WIFE learn what 110V feels like. I thought ... Man alive ... if someone else living with me is at risk because I asked her to do me a favour ... what happens if I have kids? What if a kid is just playing around and innocently puts their hands into something that's live-110V? You know, I guess I can be comfortable enough playing around with risk on myself .... but I cannot live with being responsible for harm done to another.

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm using scare tactics. Ultimately it is your tank and YOU should be the one to decide what risk you're comfortable with. Lots of people don't run GFCI. But lots of people do, and the reasoning for it is reasonably sound in my view.

cheers

PS. Oh and BTW, WELCOME to CANREEF!!! :biggrin: :cool:

[Delphinus]

Incidentally in answer your second question I have one GFCI circuit per tank (theoretically -- there is a little bit of mixing and matching going on, due to convenience of promximity of plugs and stuff like that). It depends on how much stuff you have, but my two tanks are 75g each and one of them in particular has something like 20 devices pulled off it. Within the 10a limits though.

If you WANT to protect your tank with more than one GFCI, go for it, there's no reason not to. If we're talking about a 200g, 300g tank though, you will likely find you have to have multiple 10a circuits running the full gamet anyways.. So it depends on how much stuff you have I guess.

[ryan_p]

thanks again for your quick responses. I appreciate all the feedback. I will definetely install at least one GFCI outlet to replace the original wall outlet. I am not much of an electrician, so I may be able to replace one for the other, but I don't know if I can actually install a completely new one. I have a buddy who is an electrician, unfortunetely he is out of the country. I guess I also need to track down everything that happens to be on that same circuit....maybe it is its own seperate circuit...that would be nice. One last question on this matter (hopefully, the last one...i got other things to move on to...lol) If I add up the total amps of all the devices I am running in the tank, (presuming it is a dedicated GFI circuit now with only aquarium stuff on it) it needs to be under the rated amperage of the GFI unit...Is that correct?

[Samw]

If you are not comfortable to replace the original circuit with a GFCI unit, you can get a GFCI extension cord. Revy/Rona has one for about $45 -rated 15A/1800W.

Hope this helps


I'd like to try the portable GFCI. Do you or anyone know any place that sells ones like these locally?

http://www.lindequipment.net/GFCIind.htm

http://www.lindequipment.net/GFCI's/34000.gif

[Samw]

Here's a cheap one if you want to mail order it.

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=TM-GFI

Don't know what brand it is but looks the same as the 4275 model being sold for $18.95.

http://www.smarthome.com/4274.html


I'll see if Home Depot has it or if J&L can stock them. If not, anyone want to do a group order at Premium Aquatics?

[Troy F]

Welcome to the board Ryan, good luck with the set up of your tank.

You mentioned being in a basement suite, I'd guess the electrical panel is in your suite? If so, how close to your tank? My tank sits right beside it and I had an electrician add a couple of 15 amp breakers for two dedicated circuits.

That John Denver's full of $#*% man.

[ryan_p]

(trying to figure out how to quote.....think I got it now)

: )

[ryan_p]

You mentioned being in a basement suite, I'd guess the electrical panel is in your suite? If so, how close to your tank?


The panel is directly across the room from where the tank will be set up.... I'm gonna try and get a couple of dedicated circuits

Sam... I'd be in for getting the group order of GFI if they're quality

[Buccaneer]

If you get a dedicated circuit then you can get a GFCI breaker instead

Cheers

[titus]

Hello,

I know the question is pretty much answered :mrgreen: but due to the rather "importance" of safety here, I want to comment:

1) Personal safety is paramount, much higher than the cost of the inhabitants
2) Just like Tony said. GFCI "will" not trip. If it does, well better let it trip and find out what's going on. Definitely take the whole thing apart if that's what it needs to be done to find out the root cause of it.
3) GFCI is one of the first five items that I installed when I started in this hobby.
4) I have been away from my tank for a maximum time frame of 2 months for at least two times, in addition to multiple aways each of a full week time frame. My GFCI never tripped. And this is the case because there were no hazards and electrical issues with the setup.

So conclusion (on my part at least) is to go ahead and install it.

Titus

[Samw]

Sam... I'd be in for getting the group order of GFI if they're quality

J&L can't get them and I doubt Home Depot will have them. If Revy's doesn't carry them either, I'll start inquirying Premium Aquatics to find out the shipping costs and then order a few of them and then we can split shipping based on the number of units purchased. So if I order 5 units for the group and shipping was $20, then each unit will have $4 added to the price.

Here are some reviews. Some like it, some don't. Some say they are less sensitive than the in-wall ones, other say the are over-sensitive. They call it the "Tower" model.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113357&highlight=%2Agfci%2A+and+%2Apremium%2A

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130137&highlight=tower+gfci

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209267&highlight=yellow+and+gfci

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=182217&highlight=yellow+and+gfci

[ryan_p]

Sounds good. What do anticipate the total cost being after shipping and taxes? I guess that depends on how many we get in on it... Let me know what you come up with and we'll go from there.

[Samw]

Sounds good. What do anticipate the total cost being after shipping and taxes? I guess that depends on how many we get in on it... Let me know what you come up with and we'll go from there.


Can't say right now. We need to also add brokerage fees to the equation. I sent an Email to Lind Equipment as well. They are in Ontario. If they aren't too expensive, that might be worth a try as there would be no brokerage fee and I think no PST.