New Pisces Location

[EmilyB]

I visited today.

They will have a HUGE koi pond.

It's a large store. Pity that they still support back yard breeders.

[lastlight]

Yeah that pond is going to be one hell of an upgrade for those koi!

I really liked the two vertical sw tanks too. Gives me too many ideas when I don't have any money! They've definitely committed to sw a lot more. Hopefully they have staff that can run the section well.

[Ephraim]

yeah i can't wait until they get that pond and water fall fired up. That thing is so big you'll be able to hear the roar of the waterfall from Airdrie

[sharuq1]

Pity that they still support back yard breeders. What's a "back yard breeder" ?

I think they might even be getting into the Eshopps line of skimmers as well. For those of us into seahorses there are a bunch of medications there commonly used for SH treatment. I was even able to find Methylene Blue which I have not seen in any store for years.

[andestang]

Where's it located ? Near the old one ?

[xtreme]

Where's it located ? Near the old one ?

Just off Mcknight on the east side of Deerfoot.

[Ephraim]

What's a "back yard breeder" ?



Someone that breeds seahorses at home as a hobby and then sells those seahorses to a pet store, lol

[lastlight]

don't most stores buy fish etc off hobbyists? I know petland did, Golds certainly does...

[Treebeard]

Ocean City also sells Eshopps products.


I think they might even be getting into the Eshopps line of skimmers as well.

[EmilyB]

Someone that breeds seahorses at home as a hobby and then sells those seahorses to a pet store, lol

LOL, he's joking.....

I'm talking about the puppies.......I don't support stores who support irresponsible breeding.

But this thread isn't about that. Okay ? :lol:

[sharuq1]

:lol: The seahorse thing made me laugh. The koi pond certainly does look like it will be impressive.

[Aquattro]

But this thread isn't about that. Okay ? :lol:

Ok. But I wouldn't support them either, if this thread was about that. Which it's not. :)

[EmilyB]

:clap2::clap2::cheer2: Thanks Brad...not that the thread is about that. Cuz it's not.

[Eb0la11]

How big is the salt water section compared to their old one? Also, is the store 100% up and running again or did you guys get a sneak peak?

Is it safe to buy livestock from them yet or should I wait a while?

[findingnemo1]

Did anyone else feel like they were in a prison yard with the video cameras every 2 feet from each other all around the store?
There saltwater section still sucks and is sad i think....They still put them in those tiny tanks:(
U would think with a new store they would have upgraded the tank sizes but i guess not....

[Binare]

The tanks are tiny, the tanks are filthy, the tanks are full of dead livestock... Same ol pisces, just in a nicer wrapper.

[Aquattro]

Tiny tanks are never good, especially in a store that sells puppies. I would think any reefer with a conscience would boycott a store selling puppies. Not that this thread is about that, but it should be a consideration when dealing with any pet store. Poor puppies.....

[Ephraim]

So you are saying i lack a conscience then, because i strongly support some stores that sell puppies. Thanks guy. Can you feel in the ill-informed judgemental love?

[Palmer]

I was at Pisces on the Thursday that it had opened. Didn't see any dead fish at least in the SW tanks I was looking at. Honestly I thought the store looked great and had no problem with the tank sizes. They had a combination of larger and smaller tanks. The tanks didn't look any smaller than the ones I see at Golds....

[AndyL]

I'll gladly support stores that sell puppies...

Those puppies that are being put there by the spca and animal services and the rescues and the...

But if theres a trendy name & price >400$ - then nope... Sorry...

[Aquattro]

I'll gladly support stores that sell puppies...

Those puppies that are being put there by the spca and animal services and the rescues and the...

But if theres a trendy name & price >400$ - then nope... Sorry...

To qualify my statement, yes, if the store is working with a rescue, and the dogs "showcase" at the store for exposure, and otherwise live in foster care, sure. If the store is buying litters from backyard or puppy mill breeders, cramming them in little boxes, hindering normal developmental behaviour all to make a profit, then no. Not that this thread is about that..

[EmilyB]

So you are saying i lack a conscience then, because i strongly support some stores that sell puppies. Thanks guy. Can you feel in the ill-informed judgemental love?

Yes you lack conscience.

[sharuq1]

Wow what happened to this thread? :neutral:

[EmilyB]

Not all of you fish guys have knowledge about the statistics on the dogs that end up in shelters, I understand that.

Even just watch Animal Planet, please....

I used the term BYB, but these are just mini-puppy mills, supplying pet stores.

When you buy a "'friend" for the 10-15 years you hope for, do you not want some kind of good breeding behind that? That eliminates the health, temperament issues ?

Obviously, with floor mops, not so much....maybe that is the difference.

*** Rescue before you buy at a pet store, yes.

[lorenz0]

well here is my 2 cents, walked in and still not impressed with the salt water section. you can tell they rushed it. numberious species and over populated tanks, clowns fighting, so on and so forth. once again its a last resort place and to buy cheap tanks, thats it.

as for backyard breeding, i would gladly save a life of a dog rather than have it put down. i try not to think that things like that happen but it does. as for a rescue being $400, thats cause they are fixed and up to date with shots. pet stores don't make money on them, just to pay the vet bills and give the dog an oppertunity for a good home

[sharuq1]

I don't support puppy mills either, I just thought the thread got really off track, that's all ;) I think if you are going to invest in buying a pet like a dog, cat or bird that you are better off buying from a private breeder. Generally they have better quality animals, care very much about what they are doing and it is easy to weed out the legit breeders from the "mill" type if you know what to look for.

Sooo...let's talk about fish, lol

[EmilyB]

You guys really hate things getting off track don't you !!!:lol:

So, the thread was about Pisces. Someone should get some pics of that waterfall, maybe with someone feeding the Koi?

I'd ask about the monkeys...but better not...

[EmilyB]

The last store that supposedly had rescues had all the dogs go sick, and they never reappeared. (Old thread)

Rescues, or any other dogs, do not belong in cages in pet stores. Sorry.

There are many reputable rescue organizations to adopt from, and they won't include a pet store.

Done.

Maybe. :lol:

[Binare]

Am I on canreef.com or canine.com? I'm confused

[AndyL]

as for a rescue being $400, thats cause they are fixed and up to date with shots.
I've got two rescues that ran mid 200s for fixed and shots - I know some rescues use the funds to cover additional care... Others - well - I can think of a few who seem to be getting a lil big for their britches and need to get their heads outta their tookuses... You're not going to find someone to rescue that mutt if you can get a papered brindle bulldog for less from a puppymill :)

my .02

Let us have our rants :) Me and emilyb are good at them on occasion :)

[Aquattro]

Am I on canreef.com or canine.com? I'm confused

What's the confusion? Maybe I can help :)

[EmilyB]

Okay, okay, I will respectfully request my thread be moved to the Lounge...where I should have put it anyway....knowing where it would go... :lol:

[EmilyB]

I've got two rescues that ran mid 200s for fixed and shots - I know some rescues use the funds to cover additional care... Others - well - I can think of a few who seem to be getting a lil big for their britches and need to get their heads outta their tookuses... You're not going to find someone to rescue that mutt if you can get a papered brindle bulldog for less from a puppymill :)

my .02

Let us have our rants :) Me and emilyb are good at them on occasion :)

I think I am agreeing with you... EEEK !!

[Aquattro]

Okay, okay, I will respectfully request my thread be moved to the Lounge...where I should have put it anyway....knowing where it would go... :lol:

Moved to the lounge, enjoy!

[sharuq1]

That's better :) Andy L you make a good point

[AndyL]

I think I am agreeing with you... EEEK !!
I knew you'd come over to the dark side eventually :lol:

I don't wanna sound snotty - some of the rescues do fantastic work... But some have forgotten where they come from as ego's grew; and some are now almost as bad as puppy mills...

[EmilyB]

I knew you'd come over to the dark side eventually :lol:

I don't wanna sound snotty - some of the rescues do fantastic work... But some have forgotten where they come from as ego's grew; and some are now almost as bad as puppy mills...

Yes, I presume you are talking about the "so called rescue" going on in some pet stores.

The dog rescues I support, some Canadian, some US are not at all about making money, just trying to cover the vet costs, spaying/neutering, etc.

[AndyL]

I can think of several southern alberta organizations :) We visited many last year when we finding our pepper - and I started to think most were run by crazy cat ladies (who had cat ownership bans - albeit they all had cats too...).

[G1GY]

I think it'll be a great store.

Oh, and.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AkLE4X-bbU

[EmilyB]

Hi guys !

Long time no see. :mrgreen:

Glad to see people are finally starting to take action regarding pet stores that sell puppies:

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110321/CGY_pet_sales_110321/20110321/?hub=CalgaryHome

Where to go to sign the petition:

http://www.actionsspeakloudercalgary.ca/

Deb

[Aquattro]

Great news, I hope they're successful. We need a similar action in Victoria.

[saltcreep]

Be careful what you wish for. This can easily be the slippery slope.

[Aquattro]

Be careful what you wish for. This can easily be the slippery slope.

Not selling puppies in pet stores is a slope I'd slide down any day.

[Chaloupa]

Not selling puppies in pet stores is a slope I'd slide down any day.

TOTALLY agree! 1000%~

[EmilyB]

Be careful what you wish for. This can easily be the slippery slope.

Why?

[lorenz0]

saltcreep is kind of getting the idea of how it can effect an other pet trade

It's a great idea but even reputable breeders are questionable. Our family dog (lives with my parents) is probably the last remaining from his batch. We knew 2 other people that bought from the same batch of puppies and neither of them lived to see past their 5th birthday due to long term inbreeding. Our dog is full of problems but still remains healthy and recently has developed a hip issue.

Also petland tries to home dogs as well. They have a program that brings in unwanted dogs and gets them up to date with shots and vet bills. In return all they charge is the cost of the vet bills (usually around $300). Since alot of people purchase dogs from here it has proven to be very successful and most dogs leave the store in a week or 2.

Personally some of the best dogs I have encountered came from the spca and were reserve dogs. Also I hate seeing people selling 3 year old dogs on kijiji, its sad that the owner can't commit to what they started

[Aquattro]

saltcreep is kind of getting the idea of how it can effect an other pet trade

It's a great idea but even reputable breeders are questionable. Our family dog (lives with my parents) is probably the last remaining from his batch. We knew 2 other people that bought from the same batch of puppies and neither of them lived to see past their 5th birthday due to long term inbreeding. Our dog is full of problems but still remains healthy and recently has developed a hip issue.

Also petland tries to home dogs as well. They have a program that brings in unwanted dogs and gets them up to date with shots and vet bills. In return all they charge is the cost of the vet bills (usually around $300). Since alot of people purchase dogs from here it has proven to be very successful and most dogs leave the store in a week or 2.

Personally some of the best dogs I have encountered came from the spca and were reserve dogs. Also I hate seeing people selling 3 year old dogs on kijiji, its sad that the owner can't commit to what they started

I believe this petition exempts entities that are working in some sort of foster program. If Petland is working with a rescue, it would be exept from the bylaw. This also doesn't define reputable breeder, but it's a start in removing the market for puppymills to supply petstores with dogs that could sit in a box for months.
I recently met a couple that bought a boxer at the local petstore that sells puppies, the poor thing couldn't even walk. It had been in the little cage for 6 months
I've currently got a foster dog here that came from a mill, sold through a petstore, and is the most poorly adjusted dog I've ever met. Sweet girl, just doesn't have a clue about life.
Early development for puppies is a huge thing, and if the pup sits in a box from 7 weeks until it's 6 months, you're going to have a messed up dog. No way around that.
So for me, I think this is a very important issue, and I encouraged Deb to post it. Pet stores can do just fine without selling puppies; one of most successful stores locally feels the same way and the owner does just fine.

[Aquattro]

Personally some of the best dogs I have encountered came from the spca and were reserve dogs.

And to emphasize, the petition doesn't say don't go to pounds or rescues, it encourages it. My pitty cross came from the SPCA and is a wonderful dog (now).

[lorenz0]

Yes I read the whole petition and agree with it

BUT most people just don't give a **** and its sad. Honestly I can't even watch "I am Legend" cause he has to kill his dog. But back to reality of people not caring... To get this bylaw passed you have to hope that on city council you have a majority of animal lovers. Sure people like dogs but most just don't care where they came from as long at they are cute. Look at SMS (small dog syndrome) like you mentioned the young life of a dog is extremely important, now how many little dogs do you see that are properly trained and don't bark at leafs blowing in the wind every 5 min. Those dogs weren't properly trained and now they believe they own the world, my brother bought a yorkie from a rep breeder and never trained him. Even after years he still has a bunch of issues with not listening and doing as he pleases. Which than points at irresponsible owners and people who bought a dog cause they are cute. And there are alot of them out there. Now your looking at supply and demand. There is a huge supply for dogs and the more that are being sold (IMO) the more euthanasia will be present because no little girl wants a full grown dog. This brings us back to this petition, great idea but it seems like the only laws that get passed have to oppose keeping animals that could kill you. (BC and the reptile/ exotic pet thing that went on a few years back)

Plus I want to buy a boston terrier in 2 years once I have settled down a bit. Almost picked one up 7 years ago but decided against it.

[Jamieh]

It's always the Pet Stores that are blamed for the number of animals that end up in shelters. I would bet that if you visited any shelter in any city in Canada you would find mostly medium to large dogs that had been neglected by their owners. Now visit the Pet Stores in the same city and you will find that most Pet Stores only sell small dogs. Very few of these small Pet Store dogs end up at shelters yet they get the stigma as being all of the problem. You should also try speaking to the Petland people about how they source their puppies and ask about the breeder visits they actually do to every breeder they buy from. You will be surprised to learn that they actually have a do not buy list that is shared among all stores and that they will not buy from so called "puppy mills". Also don't confuse how Petland in Canada does business vs how the puppy business in done in the USA.






I believe this petition exempts entities that are working in some sort of foster program. If Petland is working with a rescue, it would be exept from the bylaw. This also doesn't define reputable breeder, but it's a start in removing the market for puppymills to supply petstores with dogs that could sit in a box for months.
I recently met a couple that bought a boxer at the local petstore that sells puppies, the poor thing couldn't even walk. It had been in the little cage for 6 months
I've currently got a foster dog here that came from a mill, sold through a petstore, and is the most poorly adjusted dog I've ever met. Sweet girl, just doesn't have a clue about life.
Early development for puppies is a huge thing, and if the pup sits in a box from 7 weeks until it's 6 months, you're going to have a messed up dog. No way around that.
So for me, I think this is a very important issue, and I encouraged Deb to post it. Pet stores can do just fine without selling puppies; one of most successful stores locally feels the same way and the owner does just fine.

[saltcreep]

While the petition and current and proposed legislation in various constituencies are well intentioned, I feel it is misguided and it opens the door for further legislation on the retail stores. Of all the outlets available where dogs may be purchased, retail stores are the ones that are the easiest to regulate. An outright ban on sales is not the answer and will not have a large affect on the numbers of animals in shelters. I for one would highly encourage any retailer to participate in programs with shelters if they are wanting to offer dogs for sale.

A greater issue, especially for this hobby, is that local governments may not stop at dogs. The City of Richmond (BC), who enacted a ban on dogs in pet retail stores has indicated that they may investigate other animals for sale in stores. This is the slippery slope! The City of Vernon (BC) proposed legislation for the ban on "exotic animals" (I can't remember the exact term used) which included marine ornamental fish. That was subsequently voted down, but it is an example of where this could lead.

It is far too easy for local politicians, who feel they are doing the right thing, to go a step too far in what animals are banned. All it takes is one misinformed councellor to introduce a bylaw based on pure emotion rather than informed facts. This could easily happen if a city catches wind of how some fish or coral are collected for this hobby? The same ethics would apply to animals in this hobby as what are being used for an outright ban on the sale of dogs in pet retail stores.

[Jamieh]

Great post. If Cities want to be part of the solution in regards to health issues and shelter over-crowding why don't they inspect all places selling pets in their respective City. Put some guidelines in place. When you see a store or person not following your guidelines act against that person/store. Why should every store get tarred by same brush when all have not contributed to the issues at hand. Education is key to success in most things in life and puppy sales fit here as well. Mention Pet Store puppies now and people start to think "puppy mill" and that is just not true in the majority of cases.






While the petition and current and proposed legislation in various constituencies are well intentioned, I feel it is misguided and it opens the door for further legislation on the retail stores. Of all the outlets available where dogs may be purchased, retail stores are the ones that are the easiest to regulate. An outright ban on sales is not the answer and will not have a large affect on the numbers of animals in shelters. I for one would highly encourage any retailer to participate in programs with shelters if they are wanting to offer dogs for sale.

A greater issue, especially for this hobby, is that local governments may not stop at dogs. The City of Richmond (BC), who enacted a ban on dogs in pet retail stores has indicated that they may investigate other animals for sale in stores. This is the slippery slope! The City of Vernon (BC) proposed legislation for the ban on "exotic animals" (I can't remember the exact term used) which included marine ornamental fish. That was subsequently voted down, but it is an example of where this could lead.

It is far too easy for local politicians, who feel they are doing the right thing, to go a step too far in what animals are banned. All it takes is one misinformed councellor to introduce a bylaw based on pure emotion rather than informed facts. This could easily happen if a city catches wind of how some fish or coral are collected for this hobby? The same ethics would apply to animals in this hobby as what are being used for an outright ban on the sale of dogs in pet retail stores.

[saltcreep]

Just as aside. I looked in the online classified for the Vancouver Province newspaper...93 adds for dogs for sale.

[globaldesigns]

Yes I read the whole petition and agree with it

BUT most people just don't give a **** and its sad. Honestly I can't even watch "I am Legend" cause he has to kill his dog. But back to reality of people not caring... To get this bylaw passed you have to hope that on city council you have a majority of animal lovers. Sure people like dogs but most just don't care where they came from as long at they are cute. Look at SMS (small dog syndrome) like you mentioned the young life of a dog is extremely important, now how many little dogs do you see that are properly trained and don't bark at leafs blowing in the wind every 5 min. Those dogs weren't properly trained and now they believe they own the world, my brother bought a yorkie from a rep breeder and never trained him. Even after years he still has a bunch of issues with not listening and doing as he pleases. Which than points at irresponsible owners and people who bought a dog cause they are cute. And there are alot of them out there. Now your looking at supply and demand. There is a huge supply for dogs and the more that are being sold (IMO) the more euthanasia will be present because no little girl wants a full grown dog. This brings us back to this petition, great idea but it seems like the only laws that get passed have to oppose keeping animals that could kill you. (BC and the reptile/ exotic pet thing that went on a few years back)

Plus I want to buy a boston terrier in 2 years once I have settled down a bit. Almost picked one up 7 years ago but decided against it.

Hey Lorenzo, just remember training a dog is more than that, it is really the training of the owner... I was a dog owner, and grew up with dogs... Dogs that don't behave, you are correct they weren't trained. But is more than that, the owner isn't trained. It is all about Alpha, who is the boss, the training is training both the owner and dog, and the owner has to take the alpha role, if the dog thinks its alpha (THE BOSS), then you can be in trouble.

I believe all dog owners, should go through a training program with their pet. Look at the number of pet owners that don't, training of the owner and dog can solve alot of behavior issues. Not all but alot. Some pets may be just plain CRAZY!!!

I agree with you 100%, alot of people buy any pet because of cuteness. Without any research... Any pet does require some thought and research, as many have stated prior, some dogs are put into shelters because the owners did not do this. That isn't fair to the animal!

Just my 2 cents.

[lorenz0]

Oh totally. See my brother did nothing with the dog. walked it now and than, filled up the food and water dish and that was about it. My dad and I ended up spending over 30 hours replacing base boards that were destroyed due to dog **** and ripping up the carpet because the stains wouldn't come out. I mean text book example of a horrible owner. My previous description was a quick summery of the dog, and once they are older training becomes really hard. My dog on the other hand I trained him myself. Doesn't **** in the house unless he is left alone for WAY to long, doesn't rip anything up (used to love designer shoes), rarely barks, extremely friendly, but he has some selective hearing. Never got to train him for off leash.

But as everyone else has said and myself, your true problem is not in the store, but in the owner of the animal. If private sales were halted think of the influx into the SPCA and how much euthanasia would increase

[Aquattro]

But as everyone else has said and myself, your true problem is not in the store, but in the owner of the animal.

This is the part I don't agree with. Once a puppy is isolated from either it's littermates or it's human's direction, and spends any extended length of time in this isolation, it misses out on critical cognitive and behavioural development, that may be impossible to fix. Which creates a dog that invariably ends up in a shelter, or PTS.
Early interaction is critical in canine development, and this isn't acheived in most pet store environments.

[EmilyB]

Nor are the animals of any quality.

First of all, no respectable breeder breeds crosses. Lhasopoos, Chidoodles, or whatever....

I've also known several puppies that came from pet stores. Everyone of them was nervy or just plain aggressive.

I don't know if Petland is still doing the rescue thing. I think they had a lot of problems. Robert is certainly speaking out against the bill, so I assume he stands to lose something.

Whether or not it is a go, I think it still serves to educate people who really think buying a puppy at a pet store is okay.

Oh, and to who it was above who mentioned getting a boston terrier, please do your research on the problems common in the breed, and find a good breeder who is working towards improving health and temperament, and not just letting two dogs of the opposite sex have at 'er.

[saltcreep]

Nor are the animals of any quality.

First of all, no respectable breeder breeds crosses. Lhasopoos, Chidoodles, or whatever....

And how does banning them in pet retail stores change this? See my post above...93 adds for dogs for sale in the online classifieds of the Vancouver Province alone.

Regulate the stores if that is the concern. Just don't outright ban them. It won't fix the problem.

[Jamieh]

I would bet that most puppies in Petland get more human interaction than most of the kijiji ad puppies. And again I will ask the question, if it's pet store puppies causing all the shelter problems why are almost all shelter dogs medium to large in size while pet stores sell almost exclussively small dogs?





This is the part I don't agree with. Once a puppy is isolated from either it's littermates or it's human's direction, and spends any extended length of time in this isolation, it misses out on critical cognitive and behavioural development, that may be impossible to fix. Which creates a dog that invariably ends up in a shelter, or PTS.
Early interaction is critical in canine development, and this isn't acheived in most pet store environments.

[EmilyB]

You would probably be surprised at how quickly people can become educated. Our problems up here are nothing compared to the US.

But thanks to dog forums, facebook, etc. the word is getting out. These BYB's simply contribute to pet overpopulation, and the animals pay in the end by dying in shelters. Some people are idiots, granted, and you can't fix stupid. But you can strive to show the average JoeQ why it is a bad decision.

A pet store just makes it easy to impulse buy. And return it after Christmas. Hopefully, not just dump it somewhere. I wonder what the pet stores do with those? Not only that, the simple act of the pet store buying puppies from these BYB's and/or mills, is just keeping them in business.

It's hard to turn away from a cute puppy, but remember, there will just be another created to take it's place if you succumb.

[sphelps]

It would make sense to me to require all dog breeders to carry a form of business license and enforce certain regulations. The city already looks online for businesses advertising under a name that's not registered with the city so it wouldn't be much more trouble for them to look into dog breeding as a business as well. Looking currently on kijiji, with the number of puppies for sale is astonishing and most are clearly BYB.

I did my best to get my pup from a "reputable" breeder but it's pretty hard to tell so having better regulations is something everyone can benefit from. Signed the petition in person during dog class :biggrin:

[Jamieh]

Dissappointing Phelps that you would be lead but such tactics "all pet stores are bad" I hope in the future PETA doesn't turn their attention to the fish hobby.



It would make sense to me to require all dog breeders to carry a form of business license and enforce certain regulations. The city already looks online for businesses advertising under a name that's not registered with the city so it wouldn't be much more trouble for them to look into dog breeding as a business as well. Looking currently on kijiji, with the number of puppies for sale is astonishing and most are clearly BYB.

I did my best to get my pup from a "reputable" breeder but it's pretty hard to tell so having better regulations is something everyone can benefit from. Signed the petition in person during dog class :biggrin:

[lorenz0]

Oh, and to who it was above who mentioned getting a boston terrier, please do your research on the problems common in the breed

Thanks for the advice champ. If you re-read my post you would know that I am not ready for one at this time. For the past 7 years I have had my heart set on one and yes I know about issues with the dog.

Aquattro - I am not used to small shops. where I used to work, dogs weren't around long enough for any employee to get attached to. I guess in a smaller shop or a town this would not be the case. But I do agree that they should not be in those boxes for long periods of time. Even some larger shops have incorporated a "play room."

[sphelps]

Dissappointing Phelps that you would be lead but such tactics "all pet stores are bad" I hope in the future PETA doesn't turn their attention to the fish hobby.
Haha I don't think that at all, I don't agree with the petition on all levels, it's not perfect but IMO better than doing nothing.

[EmilyB]

Thanks for the advice champ. If you re-read my post you would know that I am not ready for one at this time. For the past 7 years I have had my heart set on one and yes I know about issues with the dog.


I did read it. I was only making sure, trying to save you heartbreak my friend.

[Jamieh]

Imagine there being a problem with wild caught fish so a petition is put out that keeping any fish be banned in the City of Calgary. Is it better to sign this petition or do nothing. I would suggest in regards to such a petition the answer is to do nothing with the petition and send your Councillor some better suggestions.




Haha I don't think that at all, I don't agree with the petition on all levels, it's not perfect but IMO better than doing nothing.

[EmilyB]

I don't think this involves you. This petition is for Calgary. :lol:

[Jamieh]

Calgary this week, Winnipeg last week, when exactly should I put forward the actual truth?




I don't think this involves you. This petition is for Calgary. :lol:

[saltcreep]

These BYB's simply contribute to pet overpopulation, and the animals pay in the end by dying in shelters.

Exactly! Why are the pet retail stores being targeted instead of introducing tigher legislation to regulate dog sales?

A pet store just makes it easy to impulse buy. And return it after Christmas. Hopefully, not just dump it somewhere.

Again, tighter regulations.

the simple act of the pet store buying puppies from these BYB's and/or mills, is just keeping them in business.

Is there proof that the dogs are coming from a mill or a less than desireable BYB?

[saltcreep]

Imagine there being a problem with wild caught fish so a petition is put out that keeping any fish be banned in the City of Calgary.

This was proposed in the City of Vernon (BC) a year ago. This is the slippery slope that I keep referring to. Marine ornamentals are an easy target...much easier than people believe.

[sphelps]

Imagine there being a problem with wild caught fish so a petition is put out that keeping any fish be banned in the City of Calgary. Is it better to sign this petition or do nothing. I would suggest in regards to such a petition the answer is to do nothing with the petition and send your Councillor some better suggestions.
mmmmm slightly different I think but if an obvious problem came up relating to wild caught fish causing a problem like overpopulation or even ocean depletion and a petition was issued to not ban all wild caught fish but introduce some better regulation then yeah I'd sign. The petition in question by no means has the goal to completely bans puppies. It's major goal is to prevent BYB and online sales from such. Pet stores will do just fine working with rescues and reputable breeders, most probably do already.

[lorenz0]

I did read it. I was only making sure, trying to save you heartbreak my friend.

sorry my first comment I made was a bit arrogant on my part. But I see where you are coming from. People should know about common issues with dogs. Like boston's and bulldogs with respiratory issues which can be a costly vet bill.

[Jamieh]

The petition we are discussing from a few pages back states "Enact a Municipal bylaw prohibiting the sale of companion animals(ie dogs and cats) on all public and commercial properties" How that is not stopping reputable Pet Stores is beyond me.



mmmmm slightly different I think but if an obvious problem came up relating to wild caught fish causing a problem like overpopulation or even ocean depletion and a petition was issued to not ban all wild caught fish but introduce some better regulation then yeah I'd sign. The petition in question by no means has the goal to completely bans puppies. It's major goal is to prevent BYB and online sales from such. Pet stores will do just fine working with rescues and reputable breeders, most probably do already.

[saltcreep]

mmmmm slightly different I think but if an obvious problem came up relating to wild caught fish causing a problem like overpopulation or even ocean depletion and a petition was issued to not ban all wild caught fish but introduce some better regulation then yeah I'd sign.

There is no difference. It's a ban.

BTW...there is a problem with ocean depletion and habitat degredation with the collection of some ornamentals.

[sphelps]

The petition we are discussing from a few pages back states "Enact a Municipal bylaw prohibiting the sale of companion animals(ie dogs and cats) on all public and commercial properties" How that is not stopping reputable Pet Stores is beyond me.

Simple:
Exemptions to the by-law shall include adoption events that are approved by the Mayor or that are sponsored by or located on the property of an approved rescue group or rescue individual.
No reason an "adoption event" can't be on going. A pet store will likely be able to get permanent exemption by continuously working with rescue organizations. Further down the road I would expect to see better regulation on breeders which will also allow pet stores to work with breeders as well.

[sphelps]

There is no difference. It's a ban.

BTW...there is a problem with ocean depletion and habitat degredation with the collection of some ornamentals.
Not really... Will you still be able to get a dog?

And yes but there are regulations all ready in place, you can't just go to the ocean and start harvesting and selling livestock, not legally anyway.

[Jamieh]

You really believe the goal would be better regulation and would have an exemtion for Pet Stores? Come on already. A more realistic goal of this campaign would be to increase the ban on pets other than dogs and cats which could eventually lead to this industry.



Simple:

No reason an "adoption event" can't be on going. A pet store will likely be able to get permanent exemption by continuously working with rescue organizations. Further down the road I would expect to see better regulation on breeders which will also allow pet stores to work with breeders as well.

[sphelps]

You really believe the goal would be better regulation and would have an exemtion for Pet Stores? Come on already. A more realistic goal of this campaign would be to increase the ban on pets other than dogs and cats which could eventually lead to this industry.
Yeap! The goal is clearly to prevent BYB and overpopulation not put pet stores out of business.

[Jamieh]

Then why not put that right there in the petition and leave out the commercial business part and I would bet that most people in the Pet Industry would be right behind you. And forget the ban part, put in restrictions and guidelines which reputatable Pet Stores already follow.



Yeap! The goal is clearly to prevent BYB and overpopulation not put pet stores out of business.

[Jamieh]

Hey Phelps here is the post that started this debate. They are clearly not out to ban puppy sale at Pet Stores!!!!






Hi guys !

Long time no see. :mrgreen:

Glad to see people are finally starting to take action regarding pet stores that sell puppies:

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110321/CGY_pet_sales_110321/20110321/?hub=CalgaryHome

Where to go to sign the petition:

http://www.actionsspeakloudercalgary.ca/

Deb

[sphelps]

Then why not put that right there in the petition and leave out the commercial business part and I would bet that most people in the Pet Industry would be right behind you. And forget the ban part, put in restrictions and guidelines which reputatable Pet Stores already follow.
Ideally this is obviously better but not the case. Ideally I should be able to drive my car 10X as fast as a fully loaded semi on the highway but perfection doesn't exist in this world. Nothing will favor every individual 100% and trying to do so results in too much grey zone making it virtually useless. I guess making things black and white is easier to manage and enforce producing better results. I've gotten use to this and tend to look for the greater good, don't always agree with the approach but if the results are sound I'm usually OK with it.

[sphelps]

Hey Phelps here is the post that started this debate. They are clearly not out to ban puppy sale at Pet Stores!!!!

Yeah I know, my point was it won't ban puppies, you'll still be able to get a puppy when you want one. Pet stores will be forced to work with rescues and shelters and by doing so can still sell puppies.

[Jamieh]

But if Pet Stores don't sell puppies where will these shelters get puppies for anyone to buy???? Anyway enough of this, good chatting with you again, it's been awhile, miss your opinions!!!





Yeah I know, my point was it won't ban puppies, you'll still be able to get a puppy when you want one. Pet stores will be forced to work with rescues and shelters and by doing so can still sell puppies.

[saltcreep]

Not really... Will you still be able to get a dog?

Which is why I keep asking what will this do? What is the percentage of dog sales via pet retail stores? Why punish the reputable store owners?

And yes but there are regulations all ready in place, you can't just go to the ocean and start harvesting and selling livestock, not legally anyway.

What's your point? What regulations are you referring to? I don't think I need to remind you that the animals in our hobby don't come from our ocean.

I'd also be interested to know who sits on the board of this organization that is proposing this bylaw.

[saltcreep]

Ideally this is obviously better but not the case. Ideally I should be able to drive my car 10X as fast as a fully loaded semi on the highway but perfection doesn't exist in this world. Nothing will favor every individual 100% and trying to do so results in too much grey zone making it virtually useless.

Nice straw man argument.

I guess making things black and white is easier to manage and enforce producing better results. I've gotten use to this and tend to look for the greater good, don't always agree with the approach but if the results are sound I'm usually OK with it.

But what will the results be of this ban?

Again, based on history with various municipalities around, what happens when marine ornamentals are targetted? What if they are just "collateral damage"? If it's for the greater good, you're okay with that? Legislation like this makes it easier for marine ornamentals to legislated.

[sphelps]

But if Pet Stores don't sell puppies where will these shelters get puppies for anyone to buy???? Anyway enough of this, good chatting with you again, it's been awhile, miss your opinions!!!
Supply and demand bro, currently supply is too high so you go right for testicles and tie a Herculies knot around them. Hurts like hell but effective. If demand becomes too high you loosen the knot a little perhaps allowing regulated breeding. The important thing to remember is yes at first your balls will be blue but eventually they will swing free.... wait what was I talking about again?

[saltcreep]

Supply and demand bro, currently supply is too high...

Based on what stats? What percentage do pet retail stores contribute to the availability of dogs? Again, this is misdirected legislation.

[sphelps]

Based on what stats? What percentage do pet retail stores contribute to the availability of dogs? Again, this is misdirected legislation.

Do you really want me to show stats saying there are too many dogs out there??? What percentage stores contribute is irrelevant, if car accidents keep occurring at an intersection do they stop younger, older, or ethnic drivers from using it? No they decrease the speed limit and make everyone suffer for the greater good.

[saltcreep]

Do you really want me to show stats saying there are too many dogs out there??? What percentage stores contribute is irrelevant,

The percentage that stores contribute is very relevant due to sole fact that this legislation targets them and them only. Are the unwanted dogs coming from sales from pet retail stores?


if car accidents keep occurring at an intersection do they stop younger, older, or ethnic drivers from using it? No they decrease the speed limit and make everyone suffer for the greater good.

You make my point. Banning dog sales in pet stores is akin to shutting the intersection down.

[globaldesigns]

All I will say is anything like the proposed is usually an extremist move. I do agree with what will it do? Why penalize responsible store owners? etc, etc, etc....

It is like our hobby, wait until they start on us... Lets all just try to be responsible humans. Yes I said HUMANS... Overall, we can be a very STUPID species. We have a long history to prove our stupidity, ignorance or whatever you wish to call it.

I myself bought my last dog from Petsmart, and would buy again from there!

[saltcreep]

It is like our hobby, wait until they start on us...

Which is my point. It won't stop at dogs. "Solutions" like the one that is proposed are far too easy to implement yet don't really address the issues.

[EmilyB]

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?Results&id=228936&pollid=228936&tf=ctvlocal/ctvNewsSub.html&cf=ctvlocal/calgary.cfg&hub=CALGHomeNews&subhub=VoteResult

[saltcreep]

and your point is?

[EmilyB]

No point really. Just the results of the CTV poll.

[saltcreep]

I find it odd how regulating (read prohibit) a legally operating business from selling dogs, yet any person in the city can breed their animals and put adds in newspapers/online. There's something wrong with that.

[saltcreep]

Of this group that is advocating for the legislation, how many are breeders themselves? If by passing this legislation, would they not stand to financially benefit?

Just sayin'.

[howdy20012002]

as a "backyard breeder" I thought I would just throw my two cents in.
As far as I am concerned, the more we allow the government to step and regulate all aspects of our lives, the more we are going to regret that in the future.
I personally believe that people should have the right to buy what they want to buy.
I said this last time this topic was brought up, when I was selling my non registered boston puppies and caused a sh*t storm when I dared announce it here.
I have a hard time taking advice on the advocation of pet rights from people who have saltwater fish tanks... If asked, I don't think that the critters and fish would opt to live in our tanks vice the wide open ocean.
We all have these fish for our entertainment, not theirs and in the process we rip apart the ocean and kill untold creatures in the process of getting the stuff to our tanks.
what about the rights of the dead fish, shrimp, corals, snails, etc....
what about the rights of the ones that were once swimming in a vast expanse of water and are now swimming in our 4 feet of ocean.
in my opinion, if you stand on a soapbox, you should be darn sure that the people around you cant kick it out from underneath you.

BTW, I love adding fuel to the fire because I always find these types of conversations enlightening as to how two sides of the argument can both be right (at least in their minds).

Neal

[Jamieh]

Funny you should mention supply and demand. If the paying public did not want Pet Stores to sell puppies then they would not be buying puppies there and this issue would not be discussed. Pet Stores sell puppies because the public wants them to and continues to buy their puppies from these stores.






Supply and demand bro, currently supply is too high so you go right for testicles and tie a Herculies knot around them. Hurts like hell but effective. If demand becomes too high you loosen the knot a little perhaps allowing regulated breeding. The important thing to remember is yes at first your balls will be blue but eventually they will swing free.... wait what was I talking about again?

[globaldesigns]

as a "backyard breeder" I thought I would just throw my two cents in.
As far as I am concerned, the more we allow the government to step and regulate all aspects of our lives, the more we are going to regret that in the future.
I personally believe that people should have the right to buy what they want to buy.
I said this last time this topic was brought up, when I was selling my non registered boston puppies and caused a sh*t storm when I dared announce it here.
I have a hard time taking advice on the advocation of pet rights from people who have saltwater fish tanks... If asked, I don't think that the critters and fish would opt to live in our tanks vice the wide open ocean.
We all have these fish for our entertainment, not theirs and in the process we rip apart the ocean and kill untold creatures in the process of getting the stuff to our tanks.
what about the rights of the dead fish, shrimp, corals, snails, etc....
what about the rights of the ones that were once swimming in a vast expanse of water and are now swimming in our 4 feet of ocean.
in my opinion, if you stand on a soapbox, you should be darn sure that the people around you cant kick it out from underneath you.

BTW, I love adding fuel to the fire because I always find these types of conversations enlightening as to how two sides of the argument can both be right (at least in their minds).

Neal

+1, well put!

[saltcreep]

As far as I am concerned, the more we allow the government to step and regulate all aspects of our lives, the more we are going to regret that in the future.

This is the most important part that most people fail to realize.

in my opinion, if you stand on a soapbox, you should be darn sure that the people around you cant kick it out from underneath you.

Again, the attention can easily be focused on this hobby.

[sphelps]

Funny you should mention supply and demand. If the paying public did not want Pet Stores to sell puppies then they would not be buying puppies there and this issue would not be discussed. Pet Stores sell puppies because the public wants them to and continues to buy their puppies from these stores.
Won't argue that, it's obvious most people would prefer to go to the local pet shop to buy a dog. Unfortunately not all pet stores take the time to educate people on what they are getting into or take to time to be sure the animal is going to a good home so quite often the dog is given up or abandoned. If all pet stores where as good as some already are and more people pursued adoption from shelters we probably wouldn't have a problem. Yes it's a shame but as always one bad apple can spoil the bunch. If we cut out the supply it will force people to seek there pets from overcrowded shelters and adoption events. Not a perfect solution but I don't see anyone else pursuing a better one, very easy for one to say how things should be done but a different story for someone to actually do something about it.

I really don't see this as a big deal, it's worked well with positive results in other areas and the only down side is pet stores won't be able to sell puppies (or at least in same way). So who cares, plenty of pet stores do just fine without the need to sell this kind of livestock.

I'll also add that I always laugh when people get upset about the government stepping in with more regulations. Sorry but the vast majority of the population isn't anywhere near responsible or smart enough to take care of things the right way or even close to it. You don't have the right to buy whatever you want when you want, the same as you don't have the right to do whatever you want when you want. Imagine what the world would be like if you could, chaos. Our system is far from perfect but if you think you'd be better off without it go for it, nobody is stopping you.

And as for comparing to this hobby I think you're all out to lunch, I see no reason what so ever for the assumption such a by-law will also lead to banning fish sales as well. The two issues are so unrelated it's not even funny. The only thing that ties this proposed by-law to the fish hobby is this forum it's being discussed in.

[howdy20012002]

people aren't smart enough to figure out things out on their own? wow, and I thought I was cynical.....
btw, I wasn't suggesting that the two were related in banning of sales.
I was suggesting that you shound not preach about animal ethics when you have a glass box in your house that is full of creatures that did not agree to be there.
is it ethical to support the salt water industry?
I guarantee that over half of the stuff taken from the ocean does not make the process of getting to your house.
I don't think that any dog breeders would have quite such a deplorable result.
yet, it is ok for you to support the saltwater trade??
please, hypocracy anyone?
as well, so if I don't think that a government who regulates every aspect of my life, I should move??? I'm sorry, but I like the idea of free and democratic country where I can make my own decisions.
I have a better idea, maybe you should look at moving at somewhere like China, where the government can take of all your needs.
give me a break.

[sphelps]

If we removed all traffic laws would people drive safely? Would the number of accidents decrease? People need laws and regulations to form a society, it's part of evolution. You want to back to the stone age that's fine but I'm more than happy here with the way things are and are continuing to go. Just because I support the government by no means does that make me a communist. It makes no sense that someone that is happy in there society should move elsewhere, so take your break if that's what you need.

Yes I have a salt tank but I try and do things responsibly although I'll be the first too admit the hobby really has no positive results on the environment. It's pure entertainment and I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with many pet stores selling dogs and other animals as many do things properly but I don't think it's right for Joe to breed animals in his yard for profit when there's an overpopulation and many dogs and cats are put down on a daily bases simply because nobody will house them. Two wrongs don't make a right, just because something else isn't perfect doesn't mean we can improve on other things. I'd also gladly support almost any action that promoted responsible fish keeping, even if it was extreme at first.

And BTW studies have shown over 90% of all fish and coral imported do not live for more than a year in captivity.

[howdy20012002]

btw, my dogs don't breed in the yard...I rent them a hotel room for the night.

[Jamieh]

I would assume the Pet Stores who have invested 100's of thousands of dollars in their stores would care if they are not permitted to sell the puppies that they have designed their store to sell. Here's and easy solution for you, make every person who breeds dogs get a licence and be inspected. I have visited many people who breed dogs and if you believe that "purebred" breeders do it better than so called "backyard" breeders you are sorely mistaken. I will ask this question for the 3rd time in this thread, how do you think banning stores who sell almost all small breed dogs will help shelters who are full of almost all med to large breed dogs??? Pet Stores selling puppies and over filled shelters are actually not that closely related no matter how the huggers try to spin it.





Won't argue that, it's obvious most people would prefer to go to the local pet shop to buy a dog. Unfortunately not all pet stores take the time to educate people on what they are getting into or take to time to be sure the animal is going to a good home so quite often the dog is given up or abandoned. If all pet stores where as good as some already are and more people pursued adoption from shelters we probably wouldn't have a problem. Yes it's a shame but as always one bad apple can spoil the bunch. If we cut out the supply it will force people to seek there pets from overcrowded shelters and adoption events. Not a perfect solution but I don't see anyone else pursuing a better one, very easy for one to say how things should be done but a different story for someone to actually do something about it.

I really don't see this as a big deal, it's worked well with positive results in other areas and the only down side is pet stores won't be able to sell puppies (or at least in same way). So who cares, plenty of pet stores do just fine without the need to sell this kind of livestock.

I'll also add that I always laugh when people get upset about the government stepping in with more regulations. Sorry but the vast majority of the population isn't anywhere near responsible or smart enough to take care of things the right way or even close to it. You don't have the right to buy whatever you want when you want, the same as you don't have the right to do whatever you want when you want. Imagine what the world would be like if you could, chaos. Our system is far from perfect but if you think you'd be better off without it go for it, nobody is stopping you.

And as for comparing to this hobby I think you're all out to lunch, I see no reason what so ever for the assumption such a by-law will also lead to banning fish sales as well. The two issues are so unrelated it's not even funny. The only thing that ties this proposed by-law to the fish hobby is this forum it's being discussed in.

[sphelps]

btw, my dogs don't breed in the yard...I rent them a hotel room for the night.
So out of curiosity what exactly is your motivation for breeding dogs?

[globaldesigns]

Hey lets look at things differently here.

Right now we don't even have a functional government. Going on our 4th election in 7 years, with over a billion dollars of our money wasted on these elections.

If our government can't take care of itself, and doesn't really care about the common people overall. Do we really need legistlation from them on this topic. Personally I don't think so.

I think this thread has had its time. Now time to die....:biggrin:

If you buy a puppy, you have your choice and do what you want... If you own a puppy mill or are a backyard breeder, again you have that right and choice. We the people do not need to agree on how others live their lives or the choices they may make. But we also don't need to bully others because their views may differ from ours.

[Jamieh]

Accidents are lower on the autobahn than most places in the world and about 20 years ago when Montana had no speed limit the number of accidents did not increase. Just sayin!!







If we removed all traffic laws would people drive safely? Would the number of accidents decrease? People need laws and regulations to form a society, it's part of evolution. You want to back to the stone age that's fine but I'm more than happy here with the way things are and are continuing to go. Just because I support the government by no means does that make me a communist. It makes no sense that someone that is happy in there society should move elsewhere, so take your break if that's what you need.

Yes I have a salt tank but I try and do things responsibly although I'll be the first too admit the hobby really has no positive results on the environment. It's pure entertainment and I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with many pet stores selling dogs and other animals as many do things properly but I don't think it's right for Joe to breed animals in his yard for profit when there's an overpopulation and many dogs and cats are put down on a daily bases simply because nobody will house them. Two wrongs don't make a right, just because something else isn't perfect doesn't mean we can improve on other things. I'd also gladly support almost any action that promoted responsible fish keeping, even if it was extreme at first.

And BTW studies have shown over 90% of all fish and coral imported do not live for more than a year in captivity.

[howdy20012002]

all synde remarks aside, I truly do admire and commend people who go to the pound and adopt a dog.
Personally, I have done so in the past and it didn't work out so well.
therefore, I bought a puppy from a breeder, who is not a ckc breeder, because I wanted to know the dogs background...not adopt another dog with issues.
I can assure you that I take as much care of my dogs, am concerned about the genetics and health issues of the breed and would NEVER do anything that would jeopardize my dogs health just as much as any CKC breeder.
My dogs are my kids, I just happen to breed them...and of course, like everyone that breeds dogs, the ultimate goal is money..even the CKC breeders..if not they would be giving their dogs away.
not all "back yard breeders" are bad.
just having a piece of paper from the CKC doesn't make you an expert or a better breeder.
anyways, I don't see this discussion going anywhere but in a circle, lets agree to disagree.

Neal

[sphelps]

I would assume the Pet Stores who have invested 100's of thousands of dollars in their stores would care if they are not permitted to sell the puppies that they have designed their store to sell. Here's and easy solution for you, make every person who breeds dogs get a licence and be inspected. I have visited many people who breed dogs and if you believe that "purebred" breeders do it better than so called "backyard" breeders you are sorely mistaken. I will ask this question for the 3rd time in this thread, how do you think banning stores who sell almost all small breed dogs will help shelters who are full of almost all med to large breed dogs??? Pet Stores selling puppies and over filled shelters are actually not that closely related no matter how the huggers try to spin it.
Yeah like I said before I would prefer if things could be done that way, if someone had that petition I'd be happy to sign it.
I don't think pure bred breeders are better than non pure breeders but "good" breeders have different goals than others but it's hard to tell and there are way too many out there which is why I support the bylaw. Also I've seen plenty of big bred dogs at pet stores, not all stores are the same and not all have the same principals which is part of the problem but the biggest problem is the source not the distribution.

Also you take a risk with any investment, sometimes it pays off other times it doesn't. If the by-law passes it'll be a result of the majority agreeing to it so it's not just a few "huggers", it's society taking a stand and doing something, might be ideal but like I keep saying better than nothing.

[sphelps]

Accidents are lower on the autobahn than most places in the world and about 20 years ago when Montana had no speed limit the number of accidents did not increase. Just sayin!!
Haha but traffic laws still exist on the autobahn, police use discretion and hard limits of different types of vehicles. I wish we could do that over here, I really do.

[Jamieh]

Do you seriously believe that this will be decided by the "majority"? The vocal minority push these issues while the vast majority sit idly by as they don't believe it affects them. I never said there are never large breed dogs in stores but almost all puppies sold in Pet Stores are of the small breed nature. Most Pet Stores would not be dumb enough to put big dogs in small kennels based on the optics alone.





Yeah like I said before I would prefer if things could be done that way, if someone had that petition I'd be happy to sign it.
I don't think pure bred breeders are better than non pure breeders but "good" breeders have different goals than others but it's hard to tell and there are way too many out there which is why I support the bylaw. Also I've seen plenty of big bred dogs at pet stores, not all stores are the same and not all have the same principals which is part of the problem but the biggest problem is the source not the distribution.

Also you take a risk with any investment, sometimes it pays off other times it doesn't. If the by-law passes it'll be a result of the majority agreeing to it so it's not just a few "huggers", it's society taking a stand and doing something, might be ideal but like I keep saying better than nothing.

[sphelps]

all synde remarks aside, I truly do admire and commend people who go to the pound and adopt a dog.
Personally, I have done so in the past and it didn't work out so well.
therefore, I bought a puppy from a breeder, who is not a ckc breeder, because I wanted to know the dogs background...not adopt another dog with issues.
I can assure you that I take as much care of my dogs, am concerned about the genetics and health issues of the breed and would NEVER do anything that would jeopardize my dogs health just as much as any CKC breeder.
My dogs are my kids, I just happen to breed them...and of course, like everyone that breeds dogs, the ultimate goal is money..even the CKC breeders..if not they would be giving their dogs away.
not all "back yard breeders" are bad.
just having a piece of paper from the CKC doesn't make you an expert or a better breeder.
anyways, I don't see this discussion going anywhere but in a circle, lets agree to disagree.

Neal

I'll agree to disagree as always but I'll add my definition of a "good" breeder.

First you shouldn't breed for the money period, you breed for the breed and the pure enjoyment you get out of it. Any real reputable breeder with tell you they don't turn a profit and if they do it has nothing to do with their motivation. There are a lot of expenses and time involved in doing things properly.

Also a good breeder should:
Provide documentation including genetic screens of the parents (not just a vet check)
Strict criteria for potential buyers
Offer health guarantees
Will take the dog back from the owner, no questions asked, if for any reason the owner decides they can no longer care for the dog.
Will not sell the dog before it's time
Offer extra care and pre-training so the dog is less likely to have behavioral issues
Always offers support
Shows and competes his own dogs

The list goes on but that's basically what I looked for and was able to find.

[sphelps]

Do you seriously believe that this will be decided by the "majority"? The vocal minority push these issues while the vast majority sit idly by as they don't believe it affects them. I never said there are never large breed dogs in stores but almost all puppies sold in Pet Stores are of the small breed nature. Most Pet Stores would not be dumb enough to put big dogs in small kennels based on the optics alone.

Yeap the majority of people who actually have interest in the subject. The others sitting idle could care less either way and more than likely it doesn't effect them, how would it effect them?

[Slick Fork]

I'll agree to disagree as always but I'll add my definition of a "good" breeder.

First you shouldn't breed for the money period, you breed for the breed and the pure enjoyment you get out of it. Any real reputable breeder with tell you they don't turn a profit and if they do it has nothing to do with their motivation. There are a lot of expenses and time involved in doing things properly.

Also a good breeder should:
Provide documentation including genetic screens of the parents (not just a vet check)
Strict criteria for potential buyers
Offer health guarantees
Will take the dog back from the owner, no questions asked, if for any reason the owner decides they can no longer care for the dog.
Will not sell the dog before it's time
Offer extra care and pre-training so the dog is less likely to have behavioral issues
Always offers support
Shows and competes his own dogs

The list goes on but that's basically what I looked for and was able to find.

Excellent points, I'm not so fussy about whether it's purebred or not... My dog is 10 years old and still going strong and is not a purebred collie, we wouldn't trade him for the world. I think you can get excellent breeders and poor breeders in both the purebred and mixed breed.

The two big problems I see with dogs and cats is the sheer number being "produced" by people who just can't be bothered to have their animals spayed or neutered. Rural Alberta is crawling with stray cats and dogs and farmers are a huge part of that problem.

The second problem and this is why I support the petition, is impulse buying. People who go into a petland with their kids and its "MOM I NEED A PUPPY" and then after 2 or 3 months they decide they're not really ready for a dog and it ends up in a pound.

This petition won't solve the problem, but at the very least if people are looking for a dog they will go online or into their newspaper and actually spend some time reading and THINKING about what they're getting themselves into.

I would even go so far as to say dog and cat ownership should be conditional on someone completing a course and getting an "ownership" licence. How many problems would that solve.

[saltcreep]

Won't argue that, it's obvious most people would prefer to go to the local pet shop to buy a dog. Unfortunately not all pet stores take the time to educate people on what they are getting into or take to time to be sure the animal is going to a good home so quite often the dog is given up or abandoned. If all pet stores where as good as some already are and more people pursued adoption from shelters we probably wouldn't have a problem. Yes it's a shame but as always one bad apple can spoil the bunch. If we cut out the supply it will force people to seek there pets from overcrowded shelters and adoption events. Not a perfect solution but I don't see anyone else pursuing a better one, very easy for one to say how things should be done but a different story for someone to actually do something about it.

You seem to assume that all the potential dog purchasers are going to magically get their animals from shelters. You also seem to assume that BYB and individuals selling dogs are a much better source for them than pet retail stores.

Why does the proposal not target the backyard breeder? Why does the proposal not make it illegal to advertise a dog for sale in the newspaper or online? If it's good for a legal business to have this ban in place, should it not be the same for everyone else?

I really don't see this as a big deal, it's worked well with positive results in other areas and the only down side is pet stores won't be able to sell puppies (or at least in same way).

Based on what? What stats prove this has helped?

And as for comparing to this hobby I think you're all out to lunch, I see no reason what so ever for the assumption such a by-law will also lead to banning fish sales as well. The two issues are so unrelated it's not even funny. The only thing that ties this proposed by-law to the fish hobby is this forum it's being discussed in.

That is where I'm afraid to say you are simply wrong. What I am saying is that if it is this easy to ban dog sales based on emotion and ethical reasons, why would it not be easy to ban marine ornamental sales from stores too? It's not a big leap. As I have stated, the City of Richmond has already gone on record by saying that they may look at sales of other animals in pet retail stores. The City of Vernon has had proposed legislation put forward banning marine ornamentals.

If someone had the will, I'm sure it could easily be done for marine ornamentals in some sort of fashion.

[Slick Fork]

You seem to assume that all the potential dog purchasers are going to magically get their animals from shelters. You also seem to assume that BYB and individuals selling dogs are a much better source for them than pet retail stores.

Why does the proposal not target the backyard breeder? Why does the proposal not make it illegal to advertise a dog for sale in the newspaper or online? If it's good for a legal business to have this ban in place, should it not be the same for everyone else?



Based on what? What stats prove this has helped?



That is where I'm afraid to say you are simply wrong. What I am saying is that if it is this easy to ban dog sales based on emotion and ethical reasons, why would it not be easy to ban marine ornamental sales from stores too? It's not a big leap. As I have stated, the City of Richmond has already gone on record by saying that they may look at sales of other animals in pet retail stores. The City of Vernon has had proposed legislation put forward banning marine ornamentals.

If someone had the will, I'm sure it could easily be done for marine ornamentals in some sort of fashion.

Backyard breeders and individuals selling dogs are much tougher to go after. Also, people have to actively look for these people. Pet stores with puppies on the other hand are much more open to impulse shoppers. As I mentioned above, if someone has to spend some effort looking for a place to buy an animal then you increase the chance that they are at least thinking about their purchase.

I can't think of a situation where an individual wouldn't be better off buying a dog or cat from a reputable breeder than they would purchasing from any kind of pet store. Ultimately it would be great to go after irresponsible breeders but it's not a practicle thing to do right now.

As far as it spreading to Marine ornamental fish I don't see it going there. Stray cats and dogs are a huge community problem. They either end up in the pound waiting to be destroyed or they roam around towns creating a mess and possibly attacking people. I've never heard of a stray clownfish mauling a toddler or costing cities thousands of dollars to impound and then destroy them.

[saltcreep]

Backyard breeders and individuals selling dogs are much tougher to go after. Also, people have to actively look for these people. Pet stores with puppies on the other hand are much more open to impulse shoppers. As I mentioned above, if someone has to spend some effort looking for a place to buy an animal then you increase the chance that they are at least thinking about their purchase.

I agree it's tougher to go after, however, why don't "they"? The powers that be just gives them a pass. If they are truly wanting to deal with the issue, then deal with the suppliers. I also agree that there are some pet retail stores that do contribute to the problem, but there should be a better way to deal with the issue that an across the board ban.

Can there not be a way to deal with impulse shopping for dogs? Make a care program mandatory. Have a "cooling off" period for dog purchases whereby there is a delay in time between the time of purchase and the time of pick up of the animal. Make the purchaser do some reasearch. I don't know...something has to be better than what is proposed.

I can't think of a situation where an individual wouldn't be better off buying a dog or cat from a reputable breeder than they would purchasing from any kind of pet store. Ultimately it would be great to go after irresponsible breeders but it's not a practicle thing to do right now.

So the best option is to bury your head in the sand and ignore it? Again, why single out the retailer? I've also asked what percentage of dogs do the pet retail stores contribute to the total purchases of dogs? What percentage do the BYB contribute?

As far as it spreading to Marine ornamental fish I don't see it going there. Stray cats and dogs are a huge community problem. They either end up in the pound waiting to be destroyed or they roam around towns creating a mess and possibly attacking people. I've never heard of a stray clownfish mauling a toddler or costing cities thousands of dollars to impound and then destroy them.

Another one that misses the point. I will repeat...the City of Richmond, who has introduced a similar ban on dogs has said they may look at sales of other animals.

All it takes is one complaint from an individual for the issue to be raised with a sympathetic ear. I've had a personal experience of an "investigation" by the SPCA due to a complaint of an individual regarding packing of fish. I've seen it...it won't take much.

What happens if the irresponsible LFS owner puts a lionfish within reach of a small child who gets stung after they put a hand in the tank? Again, it won't take much.

[Jamieh]

Because you mentioned Petland and impulse buying i will inform you that Petland has a policy called "Pets for a Lifetime" where the consumer agrees that if their situation changes and they cannot keep their puppy for whatever reason they will return the puppy to Petland and Petland will ensure that the puppy finds a good home.






Excellent points, I'm not so fussy about whether it's purebred or not... My dog is 10 years old and still going strong and is not a purebred collie, we wouldn't trade him for the world. I think you can get excellent breeders and poor breeders in both the purebred and mixed breed.

The two big problems I see with dogs and cats is the sheer number being "produced" by people who just can't be bothered to have their animals spayed or neutered. Rural Alberta is crawling with stray cats and dogs and farmers are a huge part of that problem.

The second problem and this is why I support the petition, is impulse buying. People who go into a petland with their kids and its "MOM I NEED A PUPPY" and then after 2 or 3 months they decide they're not really ready for a dog and it ends up in a pound.

This petition won't solve the problem, but at the very least if people are looking for a dog they will go online or into their newspaper and actually spend some time reading and THINKING about what they're getting themselves into.

I would even go so far as to say dog and cat ownership should be conditional on someone completing a course and getting an "ownership" licence. How many problems would that solve.

[Slick Fork]

I agree it's tougher to go after, however, why don't "they"? The powers that be just gives them a pass. If they are truly wanting to deal with the issue, then deal with the suppliers. I also agree that there are some pet retail stores that do contribute to the problem, but there should be a better way to deal with the issue that an across the board ban.

Can there not be a way to deal with impulse shopping for dogs? Make a care program mandatory. Have a "cooling off" period for dog purchases whereby there is a delay in time between the time of purchase and the time of pick up of the animal. Make the purchaser do some reasearch. I don't know...something has to be better than what is proposed.



So the best option is to bury your head in the sand and ignore it? Again, why single out the retailer? I've also asked what percentage of dogs do the pet retail stores contribute to the total purchases of dogs? What percentage do the BYB contribute?



Another one that misses the point. I will repeat...the City of Richmond, who has introduced a similar ban on dogs has said they may look at sales of other animals.

All it takes is one complaint from an individual for the issue to be raised with a sympathetic ear. I've had a personal experience of an "investigation" by the SPCA due to a complaint of an individual regarding packing of fish. I've seen it...it won't take much.

What happens if the irresponsible LFS owner puts a lionfish within reach of a small child who gets stung after they put a hand in the tank? Again, it won't take much.

I don't disagree with your statement that there are probably better ways... however what it would come down to is ease of enforceability and cost vs. benefit derived. I would imagine too that most pet store don't make very much money from selling dogs. They probably make their money selling all the accessories that come with pet ownership. Requiring pet stores to focus on re-homing pound animals still allows them to make their money and takes away at least a few of the sales that go to puppy mills and irresponsible breeders.

The proposed legislation isn't perfect, but what is? It's a good step in the right direction.

I mentioned earlier that I think an "ownership licence" is something I would definitely support. I would actually envision it as something similar to the current firearms legislation where you're required to take a course and have people (references) sign off on your ability to look after the animals. This would solve the impulse purchase problem.

I understand what you're saying about opening the floodgates towards banning sales on fish. I think the risk is small, but that's simply my opinion. I don't see a political will to enact that kind of legislation for a couple of reasons, primarily because as I mentioned unwanted fish don't become a community problem, secondly you don't have the breeding going on to the same kind of scale that you see in dogs and cats. Even if there was, I would suggest that it's a pretty weak reason to support neglectful and abusive practices against Dogs and Cats. The onus should be on us to prove we don't need that kind of oversight. Dog and Cat owners and breeders in general have failed that test.

[howdy20012002]

maybe we should petition for having a license for having kids...
I think licensing us before we go out and and do some shopping for food would be a good idea as well.
I mean us poor ignorant people might go and buy junk food...and that is bad for us and our family.
we could go look at what we want one week, do research then go buy the food the next week...
regardless of what we do, there is always going to be people who don't make the right choice.
the problem is that once you start making rules to regulate the stupid ones, the smart ones get thrown in the mix.
less government thanks..
look at the fiasco with a gun registry...can you imagine what it would be like for a dog??? lol..gawd..it would be in the trillions....
hey, at least when the gestapo police come to enforce the law, they will able to look up at whether or not you have a killer chihauhau registered.

[Slick Fork]

maybe we should petition for having a license for having kids...
I think licensing us before we go out and and do some shopping for food would be a good idea as well.
I mean us poor ignorant people might go and buy junk food...and that is bad for us and our family.
we could go look at what we want one week, do research then go buy the food the next week...
regardless of what we do, there is always going to be people who don't make the right choice.
the problem is that once you start making rules to regulate the stupid ones, the smart ones get thrown in the mix.
less government thanks..
look at the fiasco with a gun registry...can you imagine what it would be like for a dog??? lol..gawd..it would be in the trillions....
hey, at least when the gestapo police come to enforce the law, they will able to look up at whether or not you have a killer chihauhau registered.

Trouble is when stupid people make the wrong choice it's those of whose who behave appropriately that end up paying the price.

A dog registry already exists, managed by your local town/city council when you buy dog tags for the year.

You're an admitted backyard breeder, what's your solution to stray dogs and overcrowded pounds and shelters?

[howdy20012002]

I meant where people had to take a course of education like was suggested and is currently required for a firearm....that is what I personally think would be over the top for getting a pet.
I am of the opinion that we should have the right to buy things that I want to buy as long as it is something legal and doesn't affect the rights of other people.
I don't know what to suggest for the large numbers of strays and overcrowding. obviously it is not a great situation...I just know that I don't agree with being told that I can't buy a dog from someone that I want to buy a dog from...and I will continue to breed my dogs.

We kill millions of animals a year in North america alone for food. Pigs have been proven to be smarter than dogs, yet we will kill how many a day? were is their justice?
I am not saying that we should slaughter dogs, I am just trying to say that we do things that aren't in the best interest of animals all the time. why do stray dogs have more rights than a pig or a cow?

if you don't think that passing laws that restricts the sale of things won't lead to other things,
just look at the US and the fact that they are looking at passing legislation forbiding any sale of any non-native specie of animal.

on another note,
I do have to say it is interesting that, at times, a bunch of dogs gets alot more media than a bunch of kids that are dying in a third world country. you don't see too many planeloads of orphaned kids who are dying of starvation and disease being flown over from africa for adoption. while, just week, a planeload of dogs just arrived in edmonton...
how many kids died in the time it took us to write these messages?
just a thought.

[EmilyB]

Donate to the kids then, if that is your thing !

Nothing wrong with that!

Seriously, I'm glad it aroused some interest for discussion.

Obviously, a fish forum has few people who understand what responsible dog breeding is all about,especially in Alberta, lol.. (although I thank those that are here. :biggrin:)

Remember, when you buy your next best friend, where that dog comes from matters. It can be a 10-15 year investment.


ETA: I am very involved in breed rescue, so that is different as well. I truly believe in don't shop, adopt. I have two rescues.

However, when buying a purebreed puppy, the breeder is very important. A good one will be your lifeline for the life of the dog. And they aren't in it for the money, as there is none to be made after showing a dog to championship ( to ensure breed standard) health testing for that breed, etc. These breeders breed for the best possible mating, not because they have a male and female in the house.

My rescues didn't come from reputable breeders. Their vet bills exceed $15k over the time they have been here.

[Slick Fork]

I meant where people had to take a course of education like was suggested and is currently required for a firearm....that is what I personally think would be over the top for getting a pet.
I am of the opinion that we should have the right to buy things that I want to buy as long as it is something legal and doesn't affect the rights of other people.

If you want to commit to dog ownership, how is an educational course a bad thing? When buying a dog or cat, you are accepting responsibility for their life. A minimum standard of owner knowledge is hardly unreasonable. It takes a lot more knowledge to care for and raise an animal than it does to know enough not to shoot yourself in the foot with a rifle.

As far as buying what you want from who you want... I kind of want to agree, however... A negligent pet owner absolutely infringes upon the rights of others. If his/her abused animal gets out and mauls some poor kid or beats up somebody elses dog, than that person has violated the rights of others. If the abused animal ends up in a city shelter and is ultimately destroyed at the cities expense, than that person has violated the rights of every tax payer in town.