% salt water stock coming from farms?

[Palmer]

Hi Everyone,

I was curious if anyone had any idea how much of the saltwater live stock (fish, inverts, rock etc) is farmed for sale in LFS's verses how much of what we buy is live caught? I'm sure an exact percentage would be hard to come up with but I am just curious about a ball park estimate?

Palmer

[whatcaneyedo]

In this report based on data collected between 1997-2001 by CITES 99% was wild caught and less than .3% was captive bred. http://www.unep-wcmc.org/resources/PDFs/WCMC_Aquarium.pdf Scroll down to page 50 for the details. The whole article is a pretty good read if you have an hour or so. Of course this was just for the entire industry in general, obviously some LFS could carry a much larger percentage of captive bred fish/invets/corals.

[mike31154]

That's a toughie, even for a ballpark. It is fairly well known that very few marine fish species are successfully bred in captivity, so probably better than 90% of fish are wild caught. Same goes for inverts, although coral fragging has gone a long way towards taking the pressure off the natural reefs. Anemones such as bubble tips split fairly frequently, so that's at least one other invert I know of that is fairly reliably reproduced in captive systems.

[Palmer]

Thanks for the info. I am looking to get a salt water tank but I guess I am interested in whether what I am going to be investing in is endangering species or the natural reef in general. Is there a basis for this concern or are most species purchased at the LFS so plentiful that it isn't an issue?

Palmer

[no_bs]

Well, i think a little more reasearch is needed in your quest for answers.
Firstly, you must look at the inhumane methods that the wild caught fish and corals are subjected too. As well, survial is low, hence they take more stock. Some reefs have died. Take a look on you tube as well we have come across many, many sites that will inform you. We sure didn't know all of this before our reef tank. So to help save a reef, buy from other reefers. Less expensive than lfs. Could go on and on.........

[Nebthet]

I think this is a great topic because it goes to show how much we are still taking from the environment when we don't have to.
Taking a look at a lot of websites, what I find suprising is that mostly Canadian LFS' have to buy their livestock, which a few exceptions, from the Phillipines, and yet, to the south of us, in the United States, we have places like C-quest, ORA, Liveaquaria, Premium Aquatics, who regularily sell tank bred and farmed corals, but because of CITES and the cost they impost on the American companies to be allowed to export them into Canada we can't get our hands on those corals, unless we know someone in the States, near the border where we can hop over get them and smuggle them into Canada.

CITIES is defeating it's own purpose of existance by making Canadians continue to rape the environment more than our southern neighbours, to be able to get the same corals. It is horrific and frankly they need to let up on some of their fees so that we can do our part in keeping the natural environment where it is and taking only from those who sell tank bred fish and aquacultured corals as much as possible.

[Nebthet]

Actually to add on to the previous, what I am finding interesting, after going through and reading all of the CITES appendices, On page 32 of the Appendices lists where it states the regulations on corals, it states only SCLERACTINIA spp. under Appendices II for stony corals.

Scleractinia Spp. Are Maricultured corals. Meaning all stony corals taken directly from the Sea.

The only other one on the list of corals to mention are Pipe-Organs.

Therefore, from this information there really needs to be some more research put in from CITES to updating the standards of their lists.
While some corals we get and eventually aquaculture/farm on a business basis or within are own tanks originally may have come from the Ocean somewhere down the line, how many generations ago was that? and why is it being counted against the import/export regulations?

Take a look at ORA corals, which we all want really badly. At least 90% of those corals have been aquacultured and stains crossbred to bring out certain colors and to become more hardy in the home reef system. Obviously these are not maricultured corals and frankly should not be held accountable under CITES. As a business, ORA should have the ability to easily and readily show their corals are Aquacultured/Farmed and therefore should be able to get the permits needed easily because of that.

The only thing I can think of to do in a situation like this, to allow us as Canadians to get access to more tank bred fish and more aquacultured corals is to ask CITES to look into creating allowances for aquacultured/farmed corals.

I am going to look into anyways.

[Myka]

Thanks for the info. I am looking to get a salt water tank but I guess I am interested in whether what I am going to be investing in is endangering species or the natural reef in general. Is there a basis for this concern or are most species purchased at the LFS so plentiful that it isn't an issue?

Palmer

Be careful about the species you choose to add to your tank. You can setup an entire tank using captive bred fish, inverts, corals, and even cultured rock. Or, you can purchase fish that are caught with cyanide, are close to endangerment, ship poorly, or have very poor short or long-term survival rates.

Do a Google search for ORA - Oceans, reefs, and aquariums. That is a good place to start to see the largest marine captive breeding aquariums.

[o.c.d.]

Something many don't think about is reef are being bombed for the fish to eat and the fish and the reef are losing the battle. But If the fisherman bomber is taught how to properly farm coral in a sustainable way the fish come back the reef grow, tourist come to see the reef. The fisherman and the country makes money for long term. This is a little on the dreamy side but I have read articles about it happening. I hope this becomes the way thinks are. Our Tanks are a window into what many people don't care about until they see it up close. Education is the key.Everyone wants the polar bear to survive, its fussy cute and warms are heart when we see it. The beauty of the reef can have the same effect but we all have to make the effort to educate people we come into contact with.Prime example neighbors child see my tank I get the why? where? how come?.. I explain and the child now tells me every encounter she has with aquatic life. She tells her friends and they all want to come and see. Who's to say what effect that will have in the future, positive though.

[Drock169]

Lets not get into the whole ORA coral thing, its been officially confirmed that they wont ship to canada, and their supplier doesnt seem to have anything nice to offer even though they can ship to canada.
As far as ORA fish goes, they dont offer much to Canada, clowns and dottybacks are all they offer on a regular basis, every now and then gobies/blennies are available.
Pretty much if you want Aquacultured Coral, go to places like Coral master or other frag companies that have been around for awhile.
Essentially someone in Canada needs to set up an Aquaculture Facility, but I have a feeling the cost of running something like that in Canada wouldnt be cheap which means higher prices, and from what I know, there is a large majority of people in the hobby who don't want to spend premium prices.

[BlueAbyss]

...the cost of running something like that in Canada wouldnt be cheap which means higher prices, and from what I know, there is a large majority of people in the hobby who don't want to spend premium prices.

Absolutely. If it were feasible, I think someone would already have gone this route.

EDIT: I would also like to say that if you choose your livestock carefully, you can minimize the impact on natural reefs. Choose more common fishes, coral frags (rather than colonies), and make your own rock.

[Palmer]

Thanks again for the info. It's at least good that there is information about which species are more at risk and likely to survive. When I set my tank up I will try and use as much aquacultured stock as I can.

Palmer

[Nebthet]

Not a problem. I have emailed CITES directly to get some more extensive information from them because if there is a chance that I can go to the states and buy a crap load of corals from Liveaquaria or else where and then bring them across the border then I am going to do that. I don't mind paying for the import permits, for a one time only as they are not very expensive.

[Myka]

Lets not get into the whole ORA coral thing, its been officially confirmed that they wont ship to canada, and their supplier doesnt seem to have anything nice to offer even though they can ship to canada.
As far as ORA fish goes, they dont offer much to Canada, clowns and dottybacks are all they offer on a regular basis, every now and then gobies/blennies are available.

I didn't say anything about buying ORA corals - or fish for that matter!! I said check it out. It is an interesting website if you're interested in captive bred fish and aquacultured corals. It gives a person an idea of what is available captive bred.

If you look hard enough you can find quite a few captive bred fish. Some I have seen are: Neon Dottybacks, Orchid Dottybacks, most species of Clownfish, Pajama and Bangaii Cardinals (the latter I have bred myself), neon gobies. I think a few others that I'm forgetting.

Not a problem. I have emailed CITES directly to get some more extensive information from them because if there is a chance that I can go to the states and buy a crap load of corals from Liveaquaria or else where and then bring them across the border then I am going to do that. I don't mind paying for the import permits, for a one time only as they are not very expensive.

Good luck getting the import permits. You actually need re-export permits, and that means that LiveAquaria (or whoever else) will have to give you all the information about where the coral originally came from, which means giving up their suppliers' names. Giving out suppliers' names would be like giving out the code to your safe.

[Nebthet]

Luckily there are ways to get around the re-export permits. I have family that live in the States so all I really have to tell them is that they broke down their tank and rather than letting the corals die, they are giving them to me instead.

Now if Liveaquaria was to ship them to Canada, they would require the re-export permit, but not if they are delivering to a destination within the United States and I am picking it up. That is what others have done. Besides, I am not beyond smuggling stuff in if there is something I really want.

[o.c.d.]

Nebthet Special Forces Aqua Division...Codename Nebanatior...Mission: Coral Recovery..... Don't say anymore on this form I've detected a key tap surveillance system ..I think they are on to you.. what hu no.. no....please..
...

[mike31154]

Free Trade Agreement? What Free Trade Agreement? It's a joke, there's no way we should have to jump through these hoops for some goods. You can get around Europe from one country to he next without a hitch and here in NA we're closing our borders more & more to our so called friendly neighbours. Arrggh, politicians, now you got me started....

[whatcaneyedo]

Free Trade Agreement? What Free Trade Agreement? It's a joke, there's no way we should have to jump through these hoops for some goods. You can get around Europe from one country to he next without a hitch and here in NA we're closing our borders more & more to our so called friendly neighbours. Arrggh, politicians, now you got me started....

My feelings exactly.

[Nebthet]

Nebthet Special Forces Aqua Division...Codename Nebanatior...Mission: Coral Recovery..... Don't say anymore on this form I've detected a key tap surveillance system ..I think they are on to you.. what hu no.. no....please..
...


I so need to use this for my signature.. lol ..

and yeah.. I agree.. there is no such thing as NAFTA any more. It is all about the all mighty dollar and what the government can take from you. Grr

[midgetwaiter]

Actually to add on to the previous, what I am finding interesting, after going through and reading all of the CITES appendices, On page 32 of the Appendices lists where it states the regulations on corals, it states only SCLERACTINIA spp. under Appendices II for stony corals.

Scleractinia Spp. Are Maricultured corals. Meaning all stony corals taken directly from the Sea.


This is a flawed interpretation. When you get a CITES permit individual stony coral species are identified in the documentation. Scleractinia Spp is used as a catch all for things like live rock, any thing that was at some point live coral. Things like soft corals and mushrooms do not need a CITES permit to import provided they are not attached to any rock at all. If they are attached to rock, maricultured or not then a permit specifying so many pieces of Scleractinia Spp is required.


The only thing I can think of to do in a situation like this, to allow us as Canadians to get access to more tank bred fish and more aquacultured corals is to ask CITES to look into creating allowances for aquacultured/farmed corals.

I am going to look into anyways.

The requirement for importing cultured stony corals from the US is very simple but a complete PITA for the exporter to handle. Every time they export a frag they need to resubmit the original import permit for the colony. Obviously this is not always possible but it's there for a reason, it keeps people from doing a chop shop re-export thing.

Changing this will require amending an international treaty, it won't be simple. It probably won't accomplish anything either. Any framework that has good enough documentation requirements to stop the chop shop style abuse is going to put enough of a burden on US exporters that they won't want to do it. ORA and Tyree and waiting lists now, why would they want to go through the hassle?

[saltcreep]

Luckily there are ways to get around the re-export permits......Besides, I am not beyond smuggling stuff in if there is something I really want.

Are you for real??? There are no legal ways to get around re-export permits. If it's CITES listed, then you need the permit. Simple.

BTW, Scleractinia sp. encompasses all stony corals.

[subman]

I think when he said "smuggling" he wasn't looking for a legal route :sad:

[midgetwaiter]

BTW, Scleractinia sp. encompasses all stony corals.

Are you speakingabout taxonomy or they way the paperwork is done? One has little bearing on the other.

[Nebthet]

That's right people ... I am not beyond bringing something in illegal if I feel passionate enough about it and think it is a stupid rule I am breaking especially on something that is readily available in the United States that ships easily down there. At least I can admit it. I still remember all the rum running routes in my area.

[saltcreep]

Are you speakingabout taxonomy or they way the paperwork is done? One has little bearing on the other.

For CITES listing purposes.

That's right people ... I am not beyond bringing something in illegal if I feel passionate enough about it and think it is a stupid rule I am breaking especially on something that is readily available in the United States that ships easily down there. At least I can admit it. I still remember all the rum running routes in my area.

How are CITES rules stupid? Do you have any idea why certain companies choose not to export to Canada?

The issue was explained fairly well in a previous thread.

[Nebthet]

CITES rules in and of themselves are no stupid when it comes to the documentation of corals and live rock directly from the ocean (maricultured) corals. However, they need to do more research and catch up with the times, as there are a great many places now across the world, like ORA who are Aquaculture Farming their own breed of corals, enhancing them for certain colour patterns or hardiness.

How many generations are these Aquatcutured corals from the original they purchased from the Ocean?? 3, 4, 8 generations beyond the original colony in addition to being interbred with different colours of the same species and thus changed from the original.

For example, let's use wild wolves and state they are illegal to hunt, kill, or own as a pet (which they are), and then lets say because of that, whatever breeds with the wolf is going to be called a wolf because it has the wolf gene in it, despite however many (4, 5, 7), generations that wolf gene has been bred out of the original animal and the result is the Husky, which many people own as a pet today. But because of the closed rules of an act like CITES right now, which is not taking into account the human caused interbreeding of said species, we cannot own that husky as a pet or if we happen to have one, cannot sell it to other countries easily despite the desire for them, because CITES is still technically calling them a wild wolf, even though they are not.

So in terms of corals. CITES is calling all corals maricultured (directly from the Ocean), whether or not they have been taken from the Ocean today, or 10 generations ago. They are not taking into account the changes that have happened over the last few years with Aquacultured farming and this is what they need to change.

It is not the fact that all these different corals and listed independently under the Maricultured listing within Appendices II of their forms, it is the fact they are not recognizing the extreme differentiations between corals taken from our Oceans, to the ones which have been changed and bred by man to be more than can ever be found in our Ocean's today.

What I am saying is that CITES needs to take a look into Aquaculture farming and make a determination for leniency on it's Appendices and the cost of export permits for those aquacultured corals that have never touched or been harvested from the Ocean.

If they want to continue to monitor the trade in Aquacultured corals that is fine. Honest businesses like ORA who know their latin names of their corals can easily list them on the sheets when exporting them to businesses in other countries.
The problem that it appears to be is the cost to the business wishing to export these corals to othe countries, whether to businesses or what not.

ORA doesn't want to export to Canada because of the cost and the paperwork involved.
The same with Liveaquaria. In the past, when they were exporting stuff under CITES rules, they had to purchase the permits every single time and fill out the paperwork every single time they sent one package to to one business.

Who wants to go through that??

If I were a business, I wouldn't want to. There is no profit in it.

But what CITES should be doing for Aquacultured coral exporters and re-exporters is to have them register with CITES, note each species of Coral they have in their Appendices they sell.

Lower the cost of the Permits. Have a one cost, one year permit to deal with say business to business for exporters and then business to person for re-export, with the customer in the other country who is purchasing the items, being responsible for buying the import permit for their country (If I were to save up and make a $500+ order, to pay a $65 one-time import permit would not bother me).
Then, as most businesses do, they organize their inventory to noterize how much they sold and normally to where. These businesses could then provide a year end, or quarterly spreadsheet showing so many of these aquacultured sps was exported to this country at such and such time of year.

In this top scenario, everyone wins. Aquaculter farmers get more business, CITES still gets money from the sale of permits (and would probably make more this way), and people in other countries can more easily get their hands on corals specifically bred and enhanced for home aquariums to be hardier, and we would keep more corals in our Oceans.

So overall, I think it is great that CITES are keeping tabs on what is being taken currently from our Oceans, but unless they change with the times a little bit and consider Aquacultured / Farmed corals in a seperate light (where most hobbyists I can imagine would prefer to purchase their corals), instead of perpetuating the sale of corals directly from the Ocean, which is ultimately allowing the continued deterioration of the reefs around the world, even if it is at a slow pace. They are defeating their own purpose.